What happened to the good old days of...

[SoCalSteve]

External bottom bracket shells

27.2 seatpost diameters

Non-tapered fork steerer tubes

and standard diameter head tubes

I picked up a Moots Vamoots RSL off of eBay right before the holidays. It has a PF30 bottom bracket shell, 30.9 diameter seatpost and a 44mm oversized head tube that came with an ENVE tapered 1.125 to 1.25 steerer tube.

I do get the seatpost diameter as the tubes on this frame are massive for Ti. Certainly don't understand (well, kind of) the over sized head tube. But why a tapered fork? And, the real head scratcher is the press fit bottom bracket. Is this a solution to a problem that never existed???

And, since it came with a Chris King PF30 bottom bracket (which costs $170.00) and which turns out is generic, you have to figure out which adapter you need to purchase to make it fit your crank set. And, if that isn't bad enough, there is a $46.00 adapter tool needed to purchase from CK to help with the install. Also, lets not forget about the very expensive Park Tool headset press that is needed to actually press the bottom bracket shells into the frame.

Because, lets face it, screwing in an external bottom bracket shell (which cost complete about $25.00 to $40.00) is just not good enough for a $5,000.00 frameset!!!

OK, rant over. Thanks for reading. Back to your regularly scheduled programming....:banana:

Steve

[jr59]

get off my lawn....:banana:

[buldogge]

The answers are...

1) Seatpost shim

2) Reducer crown race

3) PF30 adaptors (no direct experience though)

Having said that, I ended up leaving the crown race in the parts box and running a tapered fork...have to say...I really like it.

-Mark in St. Louis

[PoppaWheelie]

Well, it's been said a couple times from good sources that those big bottom bracket shells make it a lot easier to join up all those massive tubes cleanly. Begs the question of why all the massive tubes, but you could chase that rabbit all way down the hole until you found a safety bike with wooden wheels...

My cross ride is the only bike I have with a press-fit situation. I hate it. The tapered HT and fork does seem offer tracking improvements though. The myriad of seatpost sizes is a nightmare for anyone who likes to tinker and mix/match out of the parts bin.

If I had a lawn, I'd kick y'all off it in my bathrobe holding a beer.

[SoCalSteve]

The answers are...

1) Seatpost shim

2) Reducer crown race

3) PF30 adaptors (no direct experience though)

Having said that, I ended up leaving the crown race in the parts box and running a tapered fork...have to say...I really like it.

-Mark in St. Louis

1.) Moots doesnt recommend, something with the way their clamping system works, I believe.

2.) $22.00 at ChrisKing.com on its way to me now.

3.) Huh? That is what I ended up using via Chris King. Doesn't solve the stupid installation issues though. Still need to install the cups. Press Fit, not threaded....···???

The fork I want to run (Moots RSL specific) only comes straight 1.125...Funny how they make a frame with an oversized head tube, but no fork to use with it.

[FlashUNC]

I'm going tapered on my new project. Certainly seems to get enough positive reviews from bigger riders about stiffening up the front end.

I figure worst case a 44mm headtube won't limit my options going forward.

[kramnnim]

This kind of PF30 adapter- https://praxiscycles.com/conversion-bb/

I wonder if people in the 60's-70's were complaining about newfangled cotterless cranks...

[Satellite]

Steve,

Moots held out longer than most manufactures, but they have to cecum to the marketing hype at some point or they would just shrivel up and die. Moots are already working with a dead material (Ti), compared to the marketing hype (Carbon Fiber).

I am sure once you ride the RSL you will forget about all those little bits, pieces and details. I have a traditional Moots VaMoots SL with all the specs you mentioned in your OP. The RSL rides very nice I could tell the difference between the two bikes, and it was only a test ride. The RSL was very stiff compared to the SL 6/4 tubing. Not that stiff would ever make a difference to my measly wattage output. To a racer it would matter. The SL is NO whip either it's just NOT an RSL.

My two cents,

Satellite

[SoCalSteve]

Well, it's been said a couple times from good sources that those big bottom bracket shells make it a lot easier to join up all those massive tubes cleanly. Begs the question of why all the massive tubes, but you could chase that rabbit all way down the hole until you found a safety bike with wooden wheels...

My cross ride is the only bike I have with a press-fit situation. I hate it. The tapered HT and fork does seem offer tracking improvements though. The myriad of seatpost sizes is a nightmare for anyone who likes to tinker and mix/match out of the parts bin.

If I had a lawn, I'd kick y'all off it in my bathrobe holding a beer.

This actually makes a lot of sense! In looking at the bike frame just now and seeing all the massive tubes meet at the bottom bracket shell, I can see why the shell is so large in diameter. But, you could still use a threaded bottom bracket with this large shell, no?

The whole idea of press fit over threaded alludes me.

Thoughts?

[witcombusa]

External bottom bracket shells

27.2 seatpost diameters

Non-tapered fork steerer tubes

and standard diameter head tubes


Steve


No worries, they live on @ my place, in fairly good numbers...

[Cicli]

My bike has none of that crap.
I would love a new bike, the ones I like have weird stuff so, I don't have a new bike.

And, get off my lawn.

[avalonracing]

When I have my next ti bike made it WILL have a standard BSC BB.

[shovelhd]

Properly executed BB30 bottom brackets are great. I can change the bearings out in less time than it takes to unscrew one side of a threaded BB. If threads get buggered up to the point where chasing with a tap won't work, drastic measures are required. I'll take BB30 over threaded any day of the week. Properly executed.

[SoCalSteve]

Properly executed BB30 bottom brackets are great. I can change the bearings out in less time than it takes to unscrew one side of a threaded BB. If threads get buggered up to the point where chasing with a tap won't work, drastic measures are required. I'll take BB30 over threaded any day of the week. Properly executed.

In some ways this makes sense. I bought the Park Tool to remove the shells as well as the CK adapter. I really don't mind buying new bike tools, especially if they make the job easier, better and more efficient. Park Tools do all that and more!

I think the Chris King PF30 is a well made product. I am sure once installed and the learning curve learned, bought and paid for, I will be very happy with the RSL.

[shovelhd]

If I had to remove a whole cartridge assembly I might feel differently. I have also seen some poorly executed BB30 frames that were hell, always creaking. My frames dont have those problems.

[SoCalSteve]

If I had to remove a whole cartridge assembly I might feel differently. I have also seen some poorly executed BB30 frames that were hell, always creaking. My frames dont have those problems.

I would hope that between Moots and Chris King, there will be NO creaking. If there is, the bike will go back on eBay!!!....:no:

[EDS]

External bottom bracket shells

27.2 seatpost diameters

Non-tapered fork steerer tubes

and standard diameter head tubes

I picked up a Moots Vamoots RSL off of eBay right before the holidays. It has a PF30 bottom bracket shell, 30.9 diameter seatpost and a 44mm oversized head tube that came with an ENVE tapered 1.125 to 1.25 steerer tube.

I do get the seatpost diameter as the tubes on this frame are massive for Ti. Certainly don't understand (well, kind of) the over sized head tube. But why a tapered fork? And, the real head scratcher is the press fit bottom bracket. Is this a solution to a problem that never existed???

And, since it came with a Chris King PF30 bottom bracket (which costs $170.00) and which turns out is generic, you have to figure out which adapter you need to purchase to make it fit your crank set. And, if that isn't bad enough, there is a $46.00 adapter tool needed to purchase from CK to help with the install. Also, lets not forget about the very expensive Park Tool headset press that is needed to actually press the bottom bracket shells into the frame.

Because, lets face it, screwing in an external bottom bracket shell (which cost complete about $25.00 to $40.00) is just not good enough for a $5,000.00 frameset!!!

OK, rant over. Thanks for reading. Back to your regularly scheduled programming....:banana:

Steve

But of course you knew all this before buying the frame, so unless someone had a gun to your head, seems like these were features you wanted to have.

[shovelhd]

I don't know how you feel about Guru but I know a bunch of people who have had issues with their BB30 frames.

[SoCalSteve]

But of course you knew all this before buying the frame, so unless someone had a gun to your head, seems like these were features you wanted to have.

I bought it used. Hard to find a 62 cm Moots RSL DI2 specific frame. Not necessarily WANTED all the features, but compromised knowing the RSL had most of what I wanted and a few things I didn't want...

Actually, I had never forayed into the world of Press Fit before now, always shied away from it. Its been a learning curve and a bunch of YouTube videos, but now I understand it more.

I have owned enough Euro-trash bikes to understand the different seat posts, no biggie really and I own a Look 595 that has a tapered steerer tube, so I do understand this standard very well.

My post was mostly out of frustration that after not building a newer bike in a few years, how much had changed and how I needed new tools and new knowledge...that is all.

Rant over, promise.....:hello:

[MadRocketSci]

get ready for bb386 and its 86.5mm wide shell! Man those bb30/pf30 bikes were such noodles....

[EDS]

I bought it used. Hard to find a 62 cm Moots RSL DI2 specific frame. Not necessarily WANTED all the features, but compromised knowing the RSL had most of what I wanted and a few things I didn't want...

Actually, I had never forayed into the world of Press Fit before now, always shied away from it. Its been a learning curve and a bunch of YouTube videos, but now I understand it more.

I have owned enough Euro-trash bikes to understand the different seat posts, no biggie really and I own a Look 595 that has a tapered steerer tube, so I do understand this standard very well.

My post was mostly out of frustration that after not building a newer bike in a few years, how much had changed and how I needed new tools and new knowledge...that is all.

Rant over, promise.....:hello:

Sometimes learning new stuff is part of the fun. I do think with the size of the tubing on the RSL the oversize headtube and bottom bracket make sense - they need the real estate for the welds.

[SoCalSteve]

Sometimes learning new stuff is part of the fun. I do think with the size of the tubing on the RSL the oversize headtube and bottom bracket make sense - they need the real estate for the welds.

I am seeing that now, thanks!

And yes, my original post was MOSTLY tongue in cheek as I am not truly a retro-grouch (I just play one on TV)...:confused:

[tigoat]

Why bought it with all these shortcomings?

[SoCalSteve]

Why bought it with all these shortcomings?

Please read post # 19.

Thanks!

[charliedid]

Oh, the trouble you've known...

[SoCalSteve]

Oh, the trouble you've known...

Cute! It is good to have these " 1st World problems" isn't it?

You should hear what the Porsche owners moan about on their Forum. They truly have it rough!!!

[charliedid]

Cute! It is good to have these " 1st World problems" isn't it?

You should hear what the Porsche owners moan about on their Forum. They truly have it rough!!!

:-)

[oldpotatoe]

External bottom bracket shells

27.2 seatpost diameters

Non-tapered fork steerer tubes

and standard diameter head tubes

I picked up a Moots Vamoots RSL off of eBay right before the holidays. It has a PF30 bottom bracket shell, 30.9 diameter seatpost and a 44mm oversized head tube that came with an ENVE tapered 1.125 to 1.25 steerer tube.

I do get the seatpost diameter as the tubes on this frame are massive for Ti. Certainly don't understand (well, kind of) the over sized head tube. But why a tapered fork? And, the real head scratcher is the press fit bottom bracket. Is this a solution to a problem that never existed???

And, since it came with a Chris King PF30 bottom bracket (which costs $170.00) and which turns out is generic, you have to figure out which adapter you need to purchase to make it fit your crank set. And, if that isn't bad enough, there is a $46.00 adapter tool needed to purchase from CK to help with the install. Also, lets not forget about the very expensive Park Tool headset press that is needed to actually press the bottom bracket shells into the frame.

Because, lets face it, screwing in an external bottom bracket shell (which cost complete about $25.00 to $40.00) is just not good enough for a $5,000.00 frameset!!!

OK, rant over. Thanks for reading. Back to your regularly scheduled programming....:banana:

Steve

Some other silly-ness-

Seat masts

Internal routing of cables

Sloping top tubes, just cuz, not for fit issues.

Proprietary wee 'V' brakes nestled into the fork or seat stays that work like crappola and are almost impossible to work on.

Tapered forks and HUGE head tubes make sense for dirt->disc brake-> light carbon forks but it has morphed to just a standard road frame.

"Design' run amok..most to save $ at manufacturing, then painted as 'performance'..Like I have said many times, I would rather fix it than sell it. Some of this junque, hard to 'sell' with a straight face.