Builders with Integrity.

[mike p]

Ok I've got a new frame coming from a custom builder who shall remain nameless. The frame was promised spring of 2014. Still don't have it. Emails have been sporadic and while the person I'm dealing with has been nice ·I still don't have the frame and really don't know when I will have it. I know I will get it, I have no doubt about that. I'm not upset but it does put a little damper on the whole process.
·I've ordered a few custom frames and this almost seems to be the norm. You pay your deposit your given a date and the date comes and goes with excuses as to why ·your not riding your new bike. I don't really care what date I'm given when I sign up I just wish it would be honored. I really don't know of many businesses where this seems to be an accepted practice.
·· · · · ·I don't want to make this a negative downer thread so lets keep it positive. Here's my question, what builders honor the date they give you?I don't have any personal experience with some of these builders but always very positive things about, ·Rock Lobster, Carl Strong, Dave Kirk....who else? Im sure there are lots more! Let's keep it positive and give good experiences.

Mike

[LouDeeter]

I think it is hard to make a positive thread when so many seem to not meet their promised delivery date. I could expand to painters. Many can't seem to meet the estimated date. But, I don't have a great deal of first-hand experience with either frame builders or painters and most of my information is second-hand. Still, it does appear to be a culture that lacks what many of us consider a best business practice.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I would try to find out why and try hard to evaluate that reason fairly. Family issues? Financial issues? Some totally unexpected setback or tragedy?

Do the reasons given make sense? Or do they set of your BS alarm?

There's usually enough communication available with other cyclists in this age of the Internet that you can ferret out others and find out if this is the usual experience or a one-time thing.

For myself, I have several builders I'd buy a frame from in a second because I know them personally, have met them, ridden with them, etc. But for any product I'm buying where I'm spending multiple thousands of dollars, it would be an essential part of the pre-purchase research to check out reputation, reliability, etc.

BBD

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think it is hard to make a positive thread when so many seem to not meet their promised delivery date. I could expand to painters. Many can't seem to meet the estimated date. But, I don't have a great deal of first-hand experience with either frame builders or painters and most of my information is second-hand. Still, it does appear to be a culture that lacks what many of us consider a best business practice.

. . unless you could offer some empirical proof of that. To say the "culture" lacks best practices is a pretty bold claim that indicts a lot of reliable and honorable people along with the bad apples.

BBD

[christian]

The only two frame builders I've dealt with directly on projects are Mike Zanconato and Craig Ryan (Foresta). Both were paragons of virtue.

[FlashUNC]

Two positive experieces I've written about in other threads:

1) Roland Della Santa.

Guy nailed it practically to the day it would be on my doorstep. Communicated all along the way. Listened to what I wanted and got me the bike I had in mind. And then was kind enough to open up the shop when I was passing through town to take a quick tour and chat about everything.

2) Eric Estlund (Winter Bicycles)
Eric's handled both a frame repair and some custom stem work for me. Both were done on time (even ahead of schedule in case of the stem). Gave me some great guidance on what to watch for on the repaired frame in the future -- not as a result of the repair, just some points to keep an eye on over time. And steered me away from some stupid aesthetic choices on the stem. Gracious with his time on both accounts.

There are plenty of guys out there who can deliver on time and on budget.

[AngryScientist]

let me tell you a story about my latest custom build experience.

i decided i wanted a 40th anniversary custom frameset from a renowned build shop, in another country. i contacted them by email, and received a response the same day. we made several communications, and a deposit was made, with a promised completion date. i agreed to drive up to the shop in Canada for a shop tour and to pick up my frame when it was complete.

several weeks before the promised completion date, i sent off an email - "how's it going?". the response: "so glad you emailed, your frame is complete and will go to paint tomorrow".

the frame was complete and painted several weeks ahead of schedule, i went out and picked up the frame. shook the man's hand who built it for me and had a nice shop tour. the experience, quite literally could not have gone better. 100% professional and awesome the whole way through. this is the way to do business. very happy customer here!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iNawHJYZCEA/VDrcYy8JmII/AAAAAAAABzo/EopUz_-Qu50/s1000/P1080359.JPG

[phcollard]

I have had only two custom frames made but those two were dead on target regarding delivery date : Steve Hampsten and Erik Rolf at Alliance Bicycles.

[mike p]

That's what I want to hear! Christian, Flash, and phcollard, excellent examples!
Lou I think your right but the Bee is also right in that there are many builders if integrity out there too.

Mike

[tigoat]

It is a pretty typical situation to have a custom frame delivery delayed in this custom frame building industry. Most delivery dates are just a time window estimate and not contractual, unless you and the builder have it written down to an actual delivery date. Nowadays, most custom frame builders have more business than they know what to do with it so it is to be expected not to have an accurate delivery date of a project. Some builders are nice enough to keep the customer informed with a delay while others don't really care. It is just the game of this industry so let's get used to it.

[mike p]

This particular builder has given no real excuses except that's he's really busy! At one point he did mention that cross season and building team cross bikes got in the way? But other builders that have been late were the same. No real excuses that made any sense, Like a death in the family or your business burnt to the ground.

Mike

. ". . I would try to find out why and try hard to evaluate that reason fairly. Family issues? Financial issues? Some totally unexpected setback or tragedy?

Do the reasons given make sense? Or do they set of your BS alarm?"

[Likes2ridefar]

Ok I've got a new frame coming from a custom builder who shall remain nameless. The frame was promised spring of 2014. Still don't have it. Emails have been sporadic and while the person I'm dealing with has been nice ·I still don't have the frame and really don't know when I will have it. I know I will get it, I have no doubt about that. I'm not upset but it does put a little damper on the whole process.
·I've ordered a few custom frames and this almost seems to be the norm. You pay your deposit your given a date and the date comes and goes with excuses as to why ·your not riding your new bike. I don't really care what date I'm given when I sign up I just wish it would be honored. I really don't know of many businesses where this seems to be an accepted practice.
·· · · · ·I don't want to make this a negative downer thread so lets keep it positive. Here's my question, what builders honor the date they give you?I don't have any personal experience with some of these builders but always very positive things about, ·Rock Lobster, Carl Strong, Dave Kirk....who else? Im sure there are lots more! Let's keep it positive and give good experiences.

Mike
The three builders I've used have been very close to the date promised. Vicious Cycles, IF, and Spicer.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . doesn't really fly with me. Sponsoring a team is not exactly something that suddenly drops into your schedule like an unexpected meteor from outer space. Anybody with a head on their shoulders is going to integrate that into their production flow for the next year and take it into account when estimating delivery dates for other customers.

BBD

[jr59]

To me, it's not about hitting the date, or having something sent to you that was incorrect, but how the builder, or anybody deals with mistakes.

Of the customs I have had built, both Dave Wages @ Ellis and Tom Kellogg@ Spectrum have been a pleasure to deal with, any troubles were handled quickly and without stress (besides not being perfect). Both times I could not ask for any more understanding and that goes a long way with me.

I'm sure there are others, ie. Dave Kirk and Steve Garro come to mind. Both have helped me w/o me buying a thing from them. I'm sure there are many more, but those 2 sort of stand out to me.

[Lionel]

Missing a delivery by many months without any explanation other than "i am busy", I would request my deposit back.

Dead on time with the estimated delivery date for me: Nick Crumpton, Carl Strong, Mike Zanconato, Paul Sadoff, Tom Kellogg, Dario Pegoretti.

Excellent communication along the way as well

[p nut]

I had an ok experience. Product delivered on-time, but the finish quality was less than desireable. Everything worked functionally, but wish he had addressed some of the aesthetical flaws of the bike. (but no regrets--a joy every time I ride it).

One thing to keep in mind--most of these guys aren't paid that well. I've looked at the P&L for a fairly well-known builder and even with the appropriate welding skills and love of bikes, I would never consider joining that profession. It's truly a labor of love, and although some get into financial troubles, have to close up shop and "take" people's money (M. Chester), most of the guys are good, honest people. The ones that I've met and/or talked to, anyway.

Hope you get your frame soon. I'm sure it'll be worth the wait.

[mike p]

I agree Dave, also being busy doesn't cut it! Tons of businesses are busy and find ways to deliver. So why should we "get used to it".

Mike

"Nowadays, most custom frame builders have more business than they know what to do with it so it is to be expected not to have an accurate delivery date of a project. Some builders are nice enough to keep the customer informed with a delay while others don't really care. It is just the game of this industry so let's get used to it."


. . . doesn't really fly with me. Sponsoring a team is not exactly something that suddenly drops into your schedule like an unexpected meteor from outer space. Anybody with a head on their shoulders is going to integrate that into their production flow for the next year and take it into account when estimating delivery dates for other customers.

BBD

[Idris Icabod]

I've had one custom frame made by Mercian in England. Although not a one man operation they always answered email within 24 hours and delivered the frame exactly as promised to the US.

A friend did have a fairly well respected US builder (one man operation) build him a frame about 2 years ago and the deadline was missed by a couple of months, the last few weeks were for trivial issues I remember (wrong headset ordered and took 2 weeks to get the correct one etc.) which at teh time had my friend a bit annoyed but it is all forgotten now but that was a couple of months not the year you're looking at.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that it's a labor of love, just as any real artist's profession is.

There are others here who have outed builders in the past who they have had bad experiences with. But it doesn't sound like you are anywhere near where that would be productive. It's a last-resort type action. Others who have done that here have generally been able to offer long laundry lists of serious delays, workmanship faults, or even legal actions.

Have you only corresponded via email with this builder? Any phone contact? Have you used the search tools here on Paceline to look up other mentions of this builder and see if others have had the problems you are having?

The only custom I've bought was my Serotta in 2001, though another custom is on my horizon as soon as the financials line up. That Serotta frame was late, but they contacted me and let me know they were re-doing part of the paint because there was a burr in the finish. After seeing the facility where they were working at that time, I'm amazed they got any quality paint done there. Ancient building and dirty. Anyway, after the repaint, Ben had an employee actually drive the frame to me special delivery personally so I could still make my build appointment with the LBS.

BBD

[carpediemracing]

If I had to wait that long after a promised due date I'd be absolutely furious.

Then again I'm a functional rider, not a artsy one. I appreciate a beautiful frame but I wouldn't order one for myself just because it's beautiful.

I have two frames from Tsunami Bikes (http://www.tsunamibikes.com). If I could afford to get another few I would (yet another road bike, a track bike, and maybe even a cross or mountain bike). My short legs and long torso make me need a bike that has the height of a size S Giant but the length of a size L or even XL bike (my saddle-bar distance was within 10 mm as a friend that had a 60 cm BMC).

I got both my frames in about 8 weeks or less. They're not the artsy stuff you hang on the wall, fine, but I wanted/needed geometry that doesn't happen in a mass produced frame. The builder charged me $650? for the first frame (no fork) and I paid him more, sort of a large tip if you will. The second frame he charged me $750? and again I paid him more. I think I paid him about the same amount for both frames. He shipped both frames next day on his dime on his own but covering that on my own was part of the extra money I paid him. I told him he needs to charge more for his frames and now he does.

For the first one the builder basically had me tone down my initial specs (he took 5mm off the top tube and 0.5 degrees off the seat tube). I got the frame about 6? weeks after we finalized the specs, basically he started it just before Christmas. I received it in January, the next month.

Other than asking for a couple pictures and standard body measurements he trusted my judgment on what I wanted, and since he was in Arizona and I'm in CT we've never met in person. Apparently he built some very similar frames for other riders, including himself, and that's why he recommended taking the 5mm off the top tube and the 0.5 deg off the seat tube.

The next year I ordered another frame, using the specs from the first frame, the ones he'd recommended, with one change in geometry (chainstays shortened 15mm to get more weight on the rear wheel) and a wholesale change in actual tubing (all aero style). I got that frame in maybe 6 or 7 weeks but he didn't start it for 2-3 weeks after I ordered it just before Christmas. I got it in mid-late January.

Then the following year I had my first frame redone with the one geometry change (short chainstays). He sent it back in maybe 2 weeks? He didn't paint it so it was easier. He also refused to charge me a lot of money for it, I can't remember but I think I sent him double his initial estimate. Obviously the parts for it were really cheap (new chainstays, new seat stays) but for me the opportunity to change the frame's geometry were worth a whole frame in itself.

One disadvantage to my BB30 frames is that the frames aren't prepped after (aluminum tube) welding so the BB30 and head tube need to be faced/reamed. However no one has BB30 reamers. I had to buy some ($300? with the 1 1/8" head tube facing/reaming cutters - the LBS charged me cost on the cutters and bought ones that fit their existing handles). If I were to do it again, if I didn't already have two BB30 SRMs, I'd get a standard English threaded BB so I could face the shell and chase the threads with a normal BB set of frame prep tools. The head tube also needs to be faced/reamed but it seemed much better than the BB, based on me doing both.

One other disadvantage is that he readily admits he doesn't do paint like the others. It's beautiful paint because he uses beautiful paint, and you can choose any color from an extensive/overwhelming catalog of colors, but I think a connoisseur would find fault with the actual paint jobs. Personally I thought they were great but if the paint doesn't chip off like the old chrome frame Pinarellos/etc then to me that's good enough. I did crash one frame, hitting the top tube hard enough to put a dent in it, but the paint didn't chip off.

As I said before I'd buy more frames if I could.

When I first ordered a frame from him I was thinking that if the frame geometry worked out I'd get a "good" frame from someone else, like a Parlee or some other super duper carbon frame. However I realized that the fit was the most significant part of the custom frame and I've been really happy with the Tsunamis I own. Unless I suddenly have a lot of excess money I wouldn't think about buying a more expensive frame set. There are a lot of things I would do with an extra $2-3-4-5k and they have absolutely nothing to do with bikes.

[makoti]

Mr Crumpton was a joy to buy from. Very up front about timelines.

[Ken Robb]

I have ordered three custom frames, met with three different builders personally, waited 4+ years total, never got one frame. I did manage to recover my deposits.

There are lots of reasons why a custom bike may be delivered late or not at all. Some are innocent and others may be deliberate. I ordered from two guys who were highly regarded right up until they went rogue and one guy who changed his policy on his order of builds/deliveries long after my order was placed. Six months after my "promised" delivery date I phoned to see WHEN I would get my bike and was told it would be another 18 months. Some folks may be able to be that patient but I'll be 72 next month so it's out of the question for me.

There are several builders I "know" as contributors here that I would trust and order from if they promised a date I could live with. OTOH they are all riders too and we know that any one of us could have a crash that would preclude our working for an indefinite time. This comment comes from a guy who is still recovering from his wreck on 7/6/14. We can't fault a guy for that.

[Rebel_Biker]

I have had only two custom frames made but those two were dead on target regarding delivery date : Steve Hampsten and Erik Rolf at Alliance Bicycles.

I definitely second Erik Rolf at Alliance. I was investigating a possible cycling business and Erik built 2 prototypes and delivered both on time. Even with a lot of hand holding.

I also had an excellent experience with Carl Strong, who also delivered on time.

Both were also available for calls and responded to email quickly.

Now painting from Spectrum Powder is another discussion.

[eBAUMANN]

Nao of Tomii Cycles (http://www.tomiicycles.com) has a work/personal ethic like very few I have met. He delivered SEVEN team frames complete and on time, months ahead of the start of the season.

----

Self-employment/management in any industry is tough..

Pretty much all of the "big name" builders have their sh*t pretty dialed at this point in their careers...it seems its mostly the new-names-pretending-to-be-big-names that tend to have trouble delivering.

Also, keep in mind that framebuilders are craftsmen/women...not business men/women. Very few know how to effectively manage themselves, let alone a business.

The solution seems pretty simple to me: under promise and over deliver - if they had just given themselves more than enough time (taking their currently list into consideration) they could have delivered the frame ahead of schedule, much to your surprise and delight. Instead, a lot of builders will over-promise in the fear of losing your business, setting themselves up for stressful deadlines and sometimes a disappointed customer.

[phcollard]

I definitely second Erik Rolf at Alliance. I was investigating a possible cycling business and Erik built 2 prototypes and delivered both on time. Even with a lot of hand holding.

Not to mention his excellent communication skills and expert advice.

Now painting from Spectrum Powder is another discussion.

Funny you mention that because there was actually a one month delay in getting my Alliance because of them. I did not mention it because Erik did finish the frame on time, but Spectrum was one month behind. Not enough to get me angry though :)

Also I am not a fan of their powdercoating job. My bike looks OK but if I had to do it again I would ask Erik to send the frame in the raw to a real painter like Noah Rosen.

[Z3c]

I have purchased from and would recommend the following: Della Santa, Hampsten and Primus Mootry(Joe D.) All were tolerant of my endless questions, worked with me on specific paint wishes and delivered what I wanted when they said they would. PM frames are a true bargain in my opinion..

[witcombusa]

It is a pretty typical situation to have a custom frame delivery delayed in this custom frame building industry. Most delivery dates are just a time window estimate and not contractual, unless you and the builder have it written down to an actual delivery date. Nowadays, most custom frame builders have more business than they know what to do with it so it is to be expected not to have an accurate delivery date of a project. Some builders are nice enough to keep the customer informed with a delay while others don't really care. It is just the game of this industry so let's get used to it.


I find that unacceptable, and those that follow "that practice" will not see any of my money.

[doomridesout]

Figure out who's selling the steak, not the sizzle...

I have yet to get my Rock Lobster which isn't getting built for another couple months, but Paul Sadoff seems to be no bull···· with regards to his workflow. He sponsors a team, and guess what: I have never heard of him being a flake or 'too busy' to finish customer frames.

Time to dick around on instagram is not time spent building bikes.

[joosttx]

I'll throw in Independent Fabrication. I have had two bikes from them. The first one was right on time and second was about 3-2 weeks late-- no big deal. It was during the time when the announcement that they were moving to NH was made. So there were distractions on the production floor. Gary sent me a hand written note with an apology and an IF kit.

[choke]

My only experience was with Steve Hampsten and I was very happy with the experience. His communication was great and the estimated delivery date was pretty much spot on.

[mike p]

Dave I'm nowhere near outing anyone and actually like this guy. My whole thought bringing this up was why is this an ·accepted practice in the custom frame business? ·Also who in the business is also a good business man?
·· ·Some very good responses ·as I knew I'd get here on the forum.

Mike
·· ·



. . . that it's a labor of love, just as any real artist's profession is.

There are others here who have outed builders in the past who they have had bad experiences with. But it doesn't sound like you are anywhere near where that would be productive. It's a last-resort type action. Others who have done that here have generally been able to offer long laundry lists of serious delays, workmanship faults, or even legal actions.

Have you only corresponded via email with this builder? Any phone contact? Have you used the search tools here on Paceline to look up other mentions of this builder and see if others have had the problems you are having?

The only custom I've bought was my Serotta in 2001, though another custom is on my horizon as soon as the financials line up. That Serotta frame was late, but they contacted me and let me know they were re-doing part of the paint because there was a burr in the finish. After seeing the facility where they were working at that time, I'm amazed they got any quality paint done there. Ancient building and dirty. Anyway, after the repaint, Ben had an employee actually drive the frame to me special delivery personally so I could still make my build appointment with the LBS.

BBD

[mike p]

I don't think I've ever heard a bad word about Paul!

Mike

Figure out who's selling the steak, not the sizzle...

I have yet to get my Rock Lobster which isn't getting built for another couple months, but Paul Sadoff seems to be no bull···· with regards to his workflow. He sponsors a team, and guess what: I have never heard of him being a flake or 'too busy' to finish customer frames.

Time to dick around on instagram is not time spent building bikes.

[fuzzalow]

The OP is asking specifically about frames. Which is very different than relaying an experience in having dealt directly with a builder on projects for something less involved than a frame. These minor bits can involve services that range from a respray to ordering a t-shirt.

For example, I have only dealt with Tom K./Jeff D. at the Barn involving a respray of a custom Pegoretti that I had already owned for a year. In this instance, the service even in this case was as superb as it could be - the highest quality, on time as promised and at the price as previously discussed and agreed upon.

FWIW, my custom Pegoretti in this story was ordered directly through Gita and no promise date was given and I did not ask for any. This is to be somewhat expected as I was not dealing directly with Dario.

Similar to the experience in being a client for a custom Vanilla in that I did communicate direct with Sacha about the frame but there was no implicit promised-by date - I went on a waiting list and was contacted when my project was near to being started by Sacha. Even then, I was originally estimated a wait time when I got on the list and Vanilla was accurate to within a few months to the original estimate. Not bad forecasting on Vanilla's part for, what was then, a 5-year wait!

Every other builder I have been a client for in ordering and taking delivery of a custom frame was on time, within a few weeks, or ahead of schedule from the completion date I was promised when I submitted my deposit. My most recent experiences as a client involve: Roland Della Santa. Bruce Gordon. Kent Eriksen.

I have been buying custom bikes for over 25 years and I try to only deal with the best in the field. And they are the best in their field based on far more than the buzz of a web site or the fluff-talk of fan-bois. With builders the case is often the more they talk the less they do.

[sokyroadie]

I have ordered 2 custom frames and have a 3rd on order.

#1 - Paul Taylor - nothing good to say.

#2 - Scott Quiring - excellent experience and great quality and value. It was a couple of weeks late but I ordered it for Winter delivery so a non issue.

#3 - Mike DeSalvo - So far great communication and appears to be on schedule - he has a vested interest as he is showing it at NAHBS.

Jeff

[hokoman]

Figure out who's selling the steak, not the sizzle...

I have yet to get my Rock Lobster which isn't getting built for another couple months, but Paul Sadoff seems to be no bull···· with regards to his workflow. He sponsors a team, and guess what: I have never heard of him being a flake or 'too busy' to finish customer frames.

Time to dick around on instagram is not time spent building bikes.

I don't think I've ever heard a bad word about Paul!

Mike

Paul was great with my wife's bike and a year later I also ordered one. I think he's the best value for custom and he delivers - simple as that!

[oldpotatoe]

Ok I've got a new frame coming from a custom builder who shall remain nameless. The frame was promised spring of 2014. Still don't have it. Emails have been sporadic and while the person I'm dealing with has been nice ·I still don't have the frame and really don't know when I will have it. I know I will get it, I have no doubt about that. I'm not upset but it does put a little damper on the whole process.
·I've ordered a few custom frames and this almost seems to be the norm. You pay your deposit your given a date and the date comes and goes with excuses as to why ·your not riding your new bike. I don't really care what date I'm given when I sign up I just wish it would be honored. I really don't know of many businesses where this seems to be an accepted practice.
·· · · · ·I don't want to make this a negative downer thread so lets keep it positive. Here's my question, what builders honor the date they give you?I don't have any personal experience with some of these builders but always very positive things about, ·Rock Lobster, Carl Strong, Dave Kirk....who else? Im sure there are lots more! Let's keep it positive and give good experiences.

Mike

When I owned a shop, with Waterford and Moots. They would tell me the time frame and I would just add a couple of weeks. They say 5 weeks, 8-12 is what I would say to customer.

PLUS if it was late, communication is key. 'I'm really busy' or 'team bikes got in the way', and with no comminication until is was forced..bad form. IMHO.

The frame is almost a year late. I'd say ask for a refund of the deposit and start over.

[William]

Anyone involved in a production process (this would include hand built frames imo) should have a handle on their shop/personal capacity and schedule accordingly. Taking more orders than one can handle in their que, or allowing other interests such as team bikes to overwhelm capacity with out adjusting accordingly is just plain bad business management. A great product can go down the tubes if one can’t manage orders and misses due dates consistently.

I’m not a believer in the mentality of… “My product is so great you should be happy to have it whenever I feel like getting it to you.” Life is too short and there are too many other people out there that can give you a great product when promised.








William

[Elefantino]

Stay positive when the bike is so late?

Better person that I am.

Now go get your money back and do business with one of the Friends of the Forum.

[mike p]

Lots of great advice and discussion, that's why this is my fave bike forum!

Mike

[c77barlage]

I'll throw in Independent Fabrication. I have had two bikes from them. The first one was right on time and second was about 3-2 weeks late-- no big deal. It was during the time when the announcement that they were moving to NH was made. So there were distractions on the production floor. Gary sent me a hand written note with an apology and an IF kit.

Another happy IF customer here. Delivered as promised, on time.

[majorpat]

Another happy Rock Lobster customer here, and I have mentioned it several times. This isn't the first thread here that details a very poor experience. In fact, one bad experience was finally revealed to be somebody that was likened to the second coming. Well, Paul isn't the second coming but he'll build you a ripping bike in a reasonable amount of time for about the best price around.
Pat

[veloduffer]

My 2 experiences were with:

Richard Sachs back in 2000 when the wait list was only 7 months long. Richard kept me informed (via snail mail) of when he expected to start and finish, send to Joe Bell for paint, and ultimate delivery. I went to Chester to get measured and order, as well as pick up the frameset. All was perfect.

Jim Kish was my other build for a gravel -cross bike. Great communication by phone and email, since he was on the West Coast back then. There was also a bit of an issue on the paint, which he readily fixed at his own expense I offered to pay half since I didn't think about the paint issue in advance as well, but he refused. The frame is great and would happily order from him again. Plus I've heard many other positive stories about Kish bikes.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Stay positive when the bike is so late?

Better person that I am.

Now go get your money back and do business with one of the Friends of the Forum.

Plus 1.

[pmac]

I get why you don't want to out someone, but I bet all his potential customers would sure like to know about this. Because this most definitely isn't business as usual for everyone, and everyone comes under suspicion when something like this comes up, I'll mention that my experience with Dave Kirk was 100% positive.

[sevencyclist]

Four custom bikes for me in past 15 years.

Seven was right on time.
Richard Sachs was early by about 3 months from initial estimated time when deposit was place.
Coconino was early by about 3 months from initial estimated time.
Peter Weigle was right on schedule, since I deferred for about a year which added another year to the wait.

So overall I have been lucky with all builders.

[Joachim]

There are so many great builders out there, that this 'missing' of deadlines are unacceptable. I've had bad and good experiences. The bad experience guys eventually went out of business... The good experiences, well let's just say Dave Kirk, Tom Kellogg, Firefly and Dave Anderson will always get my (re)peat business.

[Llewellyn]

I got messed around for months by a small local builder and ended up cancelling the order before he could even get his s@#t together enough to come up with a drawing or an estimate of how much it would cost.

So I went to Dazza. Top shelf experience all the way - I got the frame of my dreams and I still can't think of any reason why I would want to ride anything else. As a bonus I met Dazza and Maryanne in Melbourne in late 2012. Wonderful people. Dazza would be my first choice if I was ever looking for another frame.

[93legendti]

It's been a few years, but Carl Strong, Dave Kirk, Tom Kellogg all delivered custom frames to me by the promised date (+/- a few days). And the finished products were outstanding. So were the communications during the process.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . My whole thought bringing this up was why is this an ·accepted practice in the custom frame business? . . .

. . . it's not an accepted practice to have your frame going on a full year late.

BBD

[Peter P.]

I ordered a Richard Sachs in 1979. His lead time then was 4 months. It took 8 months for delivery. Richard said it was due to the Hunt brothers cornering the silver market, driving supply and prices crazy. I remembered the news about the Hunt brothers/silver market. The extra 4 months wasn't that disappointing and for whatever reason then, I felt Richard was telling me the truth and the circumstances were out of his control.

In 2007 I ordered a Bilenky Signature Clubsman. I was quoted 8 weeks. Delivery was important to me because I was replacing a commuter bike and I needed it for foul weather. It took 10 months. I was given every story under the sky and that story changed with each phone call. In the end, Stephen told me "no one wanted to build the frame".

My Rock Lobster was delivered on time.

My Soulcraft was 4 months late. At the time of my order, Sean's web site listed 6 months lead time. Delivery was important to me; I wouldn't consider builders with lead times stretching a year or more. As the deadline was missed by more and more, I didn't get perturbed because at least I'd see regular updates on his Facebook page showing he was working and putting frames out-that MATTERED to me, that at least I saw activity. When the frame was finally delivered I asked him why he missed the delivery date by so much. He said it was due to some machinery problems. I would have accepted up to a year total wait time but after that I was considering asking for a refund.

If a builder PUBLICIZES a lead time, I would expect them to adhere to it and if not, contact the customer PRIOR to missing the deadline to and provide advance notice. If not, I give the builder one "pass" on adjusting his lead time when the customer inquires. Miss the second deadline and the customer that asks for a refund should get one.

I also think it would be fair for a customer to ask a builder to provide an estimated delivery date and negotiate a "drop dead" date where you can get a refund.

To the OP's question, I say he's certainly been strung along enough to deserve a refund. The excuse of building the team frames-the builder should have projected his customers' lead times with the team frames in mind.

At some point a framebuilder crosses from hobby builder to a business. When that happens, then lead times matter.

[bjf]

I'm thinking about ordering a frame from Bill Holland. Does anyone have any experience with him, good or bad? PM me if needed. Thanks.

[Lanternrouge]

I'm thinking about ordering a frame from Bill Holland. Does anyone have any experience with him, good or bad? PM me if needed. Thanks.

I know several people who have bought frames from Bill Holland and all have been satisfied with the experience. In one instance, where there was (still is a delay) due to Holland not being satisfied enough with the ride qualities in some of the smaller-sized carbon frames to sell them yet, there was good communication.

[etu]

3 Landsharks from John Slawta - all on time and one was a couple of weeks early
1 Strong - great experience
2 Alliances - also a great experience

[cnighbor1]

I had these frames built for me
1. Hetchins
2. Stevenson
3. Davidson
4. Paul Taylor
the Hetchins was the most fun Alf sent me a few letters clearing up some points like do you want a rack also. His hand written letters were almost unreadable. took about five rereading's to understand intent. but it got built in a reasonable time an shipped to me in Seattle
One builder forgot about my order and when he saw me about 5 months after I ordered a tandem from him realized he had forgotten my order. He than proceeded to build it and get it too me
One builder when he didn't hear from me I after a long period of time ( I was waiting for him to contact me when it was done) so he sold the frame. Never did get that one.
One after I sent him the tubing, lugs and a complete new fork finished in a reasonable time. I picked it up at his shop
Has an architect I know if you rush a work of art and that is what a custom built frame is than your asking for problems
so just ride what you have and enjoy the anticipation and keep changing your choice of color in your mind
I look at cars for color choices sure make bicycle riding interesting

[rounder]

Kelly Bedford.

I bought two bikes. The first one was lugged steel and delivered on time. The second was a ti cross bike that was delivered a few months late. That was not a problem. There were a few others in front of me that had issues needing to be addressed. Not an issue for me...i had other bikes to ride.

Classy guy who builds classy bikes. Go Kelly.

[bking]

2 from Seven: no problems
1 from Dazza (Llewellyn) good experience, lots of contact
2 from Dario: delivered early always
3 from Kirk: good experience, pushed out the third one months early
1 from Pereira: took some time, special circumstance though. may have contributed to delays. very nice bike.

i am careful to choose folks who make a living at this.

[velomonkey]

Landshark - back in like 94 or thereabout. Zero issues. Also, about a year after delivery bike was stolen and recovered, but had missing paint. Called John and he said 'send it over and I'll paint it at cost." I got a different paint color and it wasn't too much (can't recall, but I was a student so it had to be cheap)

IF - in like 1999, part of a sponsorship. No issues.

Firefly in late 2013 - no issues. Paid deposit and it was an 7 month wait. Went for fitting after deposit. Kevin checked in for things like art. Dropped off parts and got to see Tyler welding my frame. Picked frame up and still stay in touch with them. Kevin has a lot of patience considering the amount of times I changed my mind.

[mcteague]

I understand not wanting to tarnish a builder's reputation but why not mention his name? He should know that any bad practice on his part will get around. Think of it as a public service for those also wanting to know who is not providing great service.

My last two Sevens were right on time. They even give you a link to a webpage showing the frame's progress. Nice for we anal types.

Tim

[pakora]

My one experience with an "artisan" builder has left me with no desire to pursue custom frames again. At the very least unless receiving it in my mind is a nice surprise if it happens, and I can live without any cash laid out before delivery. I paid a deposit of $2000 in May of 2012 with an estimated delivery for October 2012, and received the bike in November 2013.

I could detail my quibbles, but I'd even prepared myself for up to 100% more than the original delivery, after reading up plenty here and other places about the custom experience generally. That was still fine with me. 5 months becoming 18 I think is not reasonable.

Anyway, by my calculus, has it been twice as long as they've said it would be? If it hasn't, that would still be in my window of on time for a custom frame.

[sandyrs]

Dimitri Harris at Meech delivered my frame within the stated time limits and was really communicative during the process. I recommend him and his work very highly.

Brian Chapman was also great while he built my bike during his time at Circle A. Now that he's on his own under the Chapman name I would not expect that to have changed.

[SpeedyChix]

Over the years positive, timely and great experiences with
Kent Eriksen
Scott Quiring (Quiring Cycles)
Tom Kellogg /Spectrum
IndyFab

Would not hesitate to work with any of them again. Good communication, on-time delivery and superb frames.

[LouDeeter]

. . unless you could offer some empirical proof of that. To say the "culture" lacks best practices is a pretty bold claim that indicts a lot of reliable and honorable people along with the bad apples.

BBD

That's the problem with a thread like this. The OP wants it to be positive, so if you are only naming the ones who "have integrity", then by default, there will be no sample size to generate the data you need to do a meaningful evaluation. Plus, since you are only getting the positive ones, a builder who delivers on time 10% of the time will get a false positive from the client who got his frame on-time. The 90% won't mention him. From my experience over 35 years, the conversations I've had with people who have ordered custom frames tell a story that indicates to me that being late isn't something that is unusual to the trade. And, in almost all the cases, the buyer really didn't care too much if it was late--they just wanted it right. In my personal case, I've had frames delivered as late as two years after the promise date. But, once delivered, I was happy with the product.

[1centaur]

There is late and there is LATE. By their nature, estimates are subject to error and one-man shops are subject to life even if their business practices and estimation skills are excellent. 2-3 weeks late is late, not LATE. Some builders may over estimate so they can under promise and over deliver, some may try to be accurate. Apples to apples is tough and frequency is low enough to make the answer time dependent and a true statistical study would have to take out customer changes after the estimate was given.

To my mind, 2-3 weeks is not really late; 2-3 months is pretty bad (given short riding seasons) and more than 3 months suggests a problem that should be VERY rare.

[basilic]

I've had an excellent experience ordering a frame from Dave Kirk. Clear communicaton, on time, great product. There was an issue with paint that DK handled perfectly. Would not hesitate to order again from him or to recommend to others.

[BumbleBeeDave]

That's the problem with a thread like this. The OP wants it to be positive, so if you are only naming the ones who "have integrity", then by default, there will be no sample size to generate the data you need to do a meaningful evaluation. Plus, since you are only getting the positive ones, a builder who delivers on time 10% of the time will get a false positive from the client who got his frame on-time. The 90% won't mention him. From my experience over 35 years, the conversations I've had with people who have ordered custom frames tell a story that indicates to me that being late isn't something that is unusual to the trade. And, in almost all the cases, the buyer really didn't care too much if it was late--they just wanted it right. In my personal case, I've had frames delivered as late as two years after the promise date. But, once delivered, I was happy with the product.

. . . and that outing the bad ones is also appropriate at the proper point in the (failed) process.

I'm just not clear from the OP on all the circumstances of his particular process. If all they've done is exchange emails over a 10-11 month wait, then I don't think that's enough to merit outing the builder quite yet.

If my bike was more than a couple of months late past promised delivery I would be on the phone asking some blunt questions and also researching to try to find out experiences of other buyers from the particular frame builder. In other words, is my bad experience so far unusual? If so, that might make me more forgiving. If it's not unusual, then I'd be more likely to take the public, social media path after giving the guy one last chance to redeem himself.

If I order a Kirk and he tells me it's going to be six months late then I know it's a one time thing, given his sterling reputation and satisfaction ratings from customers. Dave just doesn't do that. On the other end of the scale, if it's Paul Taylor I'm never going to order a frame from the guy anyway so it's a non-issue.

It's the ones in the middle of the scale between those two extremes where you have to do advance research and be more careful about making a public fuss.

BBD

[bluesea]

Since this NAHBS thing started up I've probably added maybe one builder to the custom bike list. In fact the opposite with the recent boom of custom bike builders. Instead of having more options, I see it as all the reason to be more wary.


The old list:
Kirk
Strong
Spectrum
Rock lobster

[Jeff N.]

I've ordered 3 customs from Bill Holland, all right on time (about 4 mo.).
Ordered a Moots Vamoots custom, also on time (again, about 4 mo.).
Ordered an S&S coupled single speed from K. Bedford. Took longer than expected by several months, but I wasn't in all that big of a hurry, so I can't really count that. I was very happy with the result, so worth the wait. -Jeff N.

[malcolm]

I didn't read the whole thread but if you are a regular here it shouldn't be hard to sort out the good ones.
For me:

Dave Kirk
Zanc
Tom Kellogg
Jim Kish

For me all the above delivered exactly what was promised in the exact time frame promised. All were readily available and have remained so. The product was also excellent in all cases.

As a disclaimer I've not had a bad experience with a builder, but I choose ones I kind of know at least in a cyber sort of way and their reputations usually precede them.

[Jeff N.]

I'm thinking about ordering a frame from Bill Holland. Does anyone have any experience with him, good or bad? PM me if needed. Thanks.I own every frame (Exogrid, Isogrid, all-Ti) Holland builds, save for the new all-carbon model. It is hard for me to imagine dealing with a better builder. His attention to detail is hard to beat. He comes with my FULL recommendation. You won't have any wait issues with him, that's for sure. -Jeff N.

[ERK55]

Don't know if it has anything to do with with "integrity" but I waited over 3.5 years for my Pegoretti. I placed my order with a well known dealer in the spring of 2011 (after seeing the bike, a "Day is Done") at NAHBS Austin). The first subsequent communication (from the dealer) occurred nearly 3 years later. Said production was delayed due to problems fabricating the dropouts.

After a couple of years I gave up and ordered two bikes, one from Dave Wages and one from Dave Kirk. Both arrived a few months later and the experience was great in both cases.

The Pegoretti frame is beautiful but it's still in the shipping box, unbuilt.

[Lionel]

Don't know if it has anything to do with with "integrity" but I waited over 3.5 years for my Pegoretti. I placed my order with a well known dealer in the spring of 2011 (after seeing the bike, a "Day is Done") at NAHBS Austin). The first subsequent communication (from the dealer) occurred nearly 3 years later. Said production was delayed due to problems fabricating the dropouts.

After a couple of years I gave up and ordered two bikes, one from Dave Wages and one from Dave Kirk. Both arrived a few months later and the experience was great in both cases.

The Pegoretti frame is beautiful but it's still in the shipping box, unbuilt.

This is US distribution crap. I ordered my bike directly from Dario, he quoted 6 months and it arrived in 5.

[Bruce K]

I have custom builds from Kelly Bedford (road) and Mike Zanconato (SS cyclocross).

Both were delivered on time or ahead of schedule (the Bedford despite Keith Anderson deciding to strip it and repaint it because he saw something in his finished paint job that HE didn't like - he said he doubted we would have noticed).

The best part of both builds were progress reports and a reasonable/steady flow of updates.

I would buy from both again in a heartbeat.

BK

[shovelhd]

It was a long time ago, but I had a great experience with Ted Wojcik.

[MattTuck]

Another smooth Dave Kirk experience here.

I will say this, some guys are booking out a year in advance. At this point, I consider an estimate from them to have more allowable variance (even on a percent basis) than someone who is quoting 2-4 months.

The reason I say this is because a guy that is quoting 2-4 months suggests that you can purchase a frame and expect it for a given event, or to be ready for spring training, or cx season. It isn't fair to the rider to go in with expectations that they'll have the bike at a specific date, and then be let down.
The other side of this coin is that the buyer should communicate that expectation to the builder and get some sort of agreement.

I find the idea of a builder 'sponsoring' a team to be a little silly. It smacks of vanity, and pompousness... basically it is a 'legitimate' way to create a cool kid's table, and give said cool kids a discount and/or let them skip the line of the actual paying customers.

To me, that is a turn off.

[giverdada]

My only experience with the order and build process with a custom builder is with Carl Strong. Carl built a full frameset for my brother and a custom steel road frame for me. The entire process for each was excellent. Deposits made, measurements sent, conversations had, hiccups resolved, and both Carl and Loretta bent over backwards to do everything they could for my brother and me to be satisfied with Strongframes. I'm dying to get another one, just because the process is so great, and my experience with Carl makes me very wary of other builders. Missing due dates by over a year is completely unacceptable.

That said, and I know it's a possibly offensive blanket statement, I have found the bike industry in North America to be lacking entirely on pretty much anything with any kind of deadline. Even local shops having to order stuff in will order the wrong thing and that will take 6-8 weeks, then they'll re-order and that will take another 6-8 weeks, and then we have to multiply the lead time by a factor of 150% to accommodate the nature of bike industry 'deadlines'. As a teacher, I stress the importance of submission deadlines, figuring there are industry standards in the professional world. People need to move into houses being built and drive across roads being finished and show up to meetings being run, right? I understand that framebuilders are builders and not necessarily business people, but there comes a point when too much over-promising poisons the whole pot. It's like artists: we shouldn't write our artist statements because we aren't writers; we're artists.

I wish you luck resolving your frame delivery.

[Ti Designs]

Why not use one common cycling problem to solve another? Allow frame builders to use PEDs...

I got my custom Serotta 3 weeks after I ordered it, I hear their delivery has slipped a bit since then.

I got my Tarmac before I ordered it, which is a bit weird...

[bking]

This is US distribution crap. I ordered my bike directly from Dario, he quoted 6 months and it arrived in 5.

may have been the LBS? I've always gotten bikes from Pegoretti early. Seems like most i hear about do to, other than yrs back when he was ill.

[bking]

2 from Seven: no problems
1 from Dazza (Llewellyn) good experience, lots of contact
2 from Dario: delivered early always
3 from Kirk: good experience, pushed out the third one months early
1 from Pereira: took some time, special circumstance though. may have contributed to delays. very nice bike.

i am careful to choose folks who make a living at this.

forgot one:
Speedvagen. Delivery was a bit late, but plenty of communication. Will someday buy another bike from Vanilla et al.

It is not surprising that the same folks names come round on all these "positive" threads. It's really not hard to make a good, safe choice.

[Frankwurst]

Communication. You gonna be late to the supper we planned? Let me know. I can deal with late. I don't like it but let me know and I can deal with it. Not letting me know is rude and I dislike rude as much if not more than being late.:beer:

[Tony T]

Two custom frames, both were delivered on time.
One was a carbon, built by a LBS
The other was a Ti, I did the build.

[bikinchris]

That's why I like dealing with IF and Waterford. Both of them are first class. Many riders like to order small names because they are "Cool" and that is fine. I steer riders towards builders who make good product, do it on time and have a high standard of professionalism.

[Ken Robb]

I toured Waterford with Richard Schwinn. I saw Waterrfords and Gunnars being welded by the same guys. It was all very organized/professional. I had a Waterford RS1100 that was a wonderful bike. I have to think ordering a custom from them is as close to no risk as it can get. If one craftsman goes down for whatever reason there is another to pick up the slack.

[JLP]

Nothing but positive experience with Richard Schwinn on a Waterford and custom Gunnar.

Friends have had excellent experiences with Steve Rex and Steve Hampsten.

[oldpotatoe]

This is US distribution crap. I ordered my bike directly from Dario, he quoted 6 months and it arrived in 5.

You are in Europe, yes? May have something to do with it. Did you do this all n person?

Not 'US distribution crap', but how he sells(a lot) of his frames in the US.

[jmeloy]

Been fortunate to have had a number built and gotta say that Dave Kirk, Carl Strong, the Vanilla "Speedvagen" team, Tom Kellogg, Steve Hampsten were all on time and a pleasure to deal with. Props also to Mike Z as he built my first custom and is just a great guy.

My Peg also arrived 3 months before quoted via Bikyle and Dario.

Had one not so good experience but the above ain't all bad!

[merlincustom1]

may have been the LBS? I've always gotten bikes from Pegoretti early. Seems like most i hear about do to, other than yrs back when he was ill.

I think so too. I was quoted 24 months in 2009 for a Peg. It came early at 15 months in 2010. I think your bike shop gave you BS.

[oldpotatoe]

I think so too. I was quoted 24 months in 2009 for a Peg. It came early at 15 months in 2010. I think your bike shop gave you BS.

NOT trying to defend the bike shop but when I sold Pegoretti, and called about a Responsorium, was quoted 1-3 YEARS wait time. So what do ya tell the customer? I did, she rolled her eyes and bought a Waterford stainless. 9 weeks.