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Jgrooms
12-27-2014, 04:10 PM
This will put a chill into race organizers...

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/12/fallen_tree_causes_portland_mo.html

Questions?

Were the racers informed of the course change.

Was it marked.


Whats the opinion? You sign a waiver & thats it? Generally I agree 100%, but in this case did the racer come upon something she literally didn't sign up for?

malcolm
12-27-2014, 04:15 PM
I tend to think the onus should be on the participant to know they are capable of handling the course. I never really raced mtn bikes but did race motorcycles mostly motocross and some xcountry. I tried to make sure I knew what was on the track, but if I crashed it was on me.

I wonder if others had trouble with that area.

Jgrooms
12-27-2014, 04:19 PM
I read the comments just now, and am back in the 100% camp. She failed on the pre ride. And 'supposedly' walked it before the fail attempt. Hopefully the organizers find all these people and squash it.

Ti Designs
12-27-2014, 04:24 PM
If you don't want to get hurt, don't race...

That said, all judgement aside (if that's possible), what would you do? You're in pain for the rest of your life, hospital bills probably hanging over your head, nobody else to go after... With that kind of scenario, personal responsibility goes out the window.

thirdgenbird
12-27-2014, 04:28 PM
the state often gives road condition updates after a snow fall but that doesn't mean I can disregard the fact that it's winter and I may hit ice.

The race organizer didn't force her to ride. I am assuming the race organizer didn't force her to ride faster than her ability, and I'm guessing they didn't make her remover her brakes before setting off. Regardless of weather, trail conditions change. She needs to take personal responsibility.

makoti
12-27-2014, 05:39 PM
If they "covered it with dirt" and didn't place any warning up, they are toast. If it fell during the race, that's changing course conditions. Before the race, we're looking at negligence if the way it was described happened.
Blanket waivers: everyone signs them, no one reads them. There was one a while back for some software. It said that you sign this, we own your soul. They left it up for 24 hours as a joke. Some crazy amount of people bought the software & signed it.

Mikej
12-27-2014, 05:42 PM
A downed tree is the race organizers fault. My team puts on an xc race and we make certain that everything is ready - I even leaf blow the course in the morning- it is very easy to become wrapped up in competition and forget where you are on the course. I feel the race organizer is required to make the course free and clear of large debris - especially fallen trees. And no, nobody forces anybody to ride, but as a competitor I expect the course to be safe - that was not a twig in the face or a pinch flat, it was a piss poor race organizer not wanting to chainsaw a tree due to the cost, it's not an acceptable obstacle.

thirdgenbird
12-27-2014, 05:57 PM
According to the comments, the race organizers did not cover it in dirt. They removed the tree prior to the race. This accedent happed the day before the race. After she had walked the course and saw the tree. It was also described as a small obsticle. The comments could be wrong, but new stories often are as well. Regardless, I'm not saying the race organizers did the right thing, but ultimately she was the only one in control of her bike. If she wins this, what's next? Suing because wet grass was too slick?

Sigh. The race organizers had nothing to do with building up that jump. It was done without their knowledge and was dealt with once they found out about it. Additionally, the tree was easy to see anyone with common sense and knowledge of their abilities could easily have stopped and walked over it

I have met this woman and I know people that were at the race course that day, which was the day BEFORE the race. It was the PRE-RIDE day where you scope the line(s) on the course. Word is she looked at the line first, then hiked/rode back up and went for it, and that the obstacle was not that big of a deal or extreme by any measure. This was not a "blind" race.

ofcounsel
12-27-2014, 06:06 PM
A downed tree is the race organizers fault. My team puts on an xc race and we make certain that everything is ready - I even leaf blow the course in the morning- it is very easy to become wrapped up in competition and forget where you are on the course. I feel the race organizer is required to make the course free and clear of large debris - especially fallen trees. And no, nobody forces anybody to ride, but as a competitor I expect the course to be safe - that was not a twig in the face or a pinch flat, it was a piss poor race organizer not wanting to chainsaw a tree due to the cost, it's not an acceptable obstacle.

This one doesn't seem like it was an XC course, rather a Super D course which is primarily a downhill type course, with some uphill climbing.... I think rocks/roots/trees are kind of expected in a course like this.

makoti
12-27-2014, 06:15 PM
According to the comments, the race organizers did not cover it in dirt. They removed the tree prior to the race. This accedent happed the day before the race. After she had walked the course and saw the tree. It was also described as a small obsticle. The comments could be wrong, but new stories often are as well. Regardless, I'm not saying the race organizers did the right thing, but ultimately she was the only one in control of her bike. If she wins this, what's next? Suing because wet grass was too slick?

According to the comments, it would have been better if she died so I'm not sure how much faith I put in those.
It does sound like it happened before the race. Raises interesting questions that I don't know the answers to. Is the Race still liable for things that happen on the/their course before the actual event? Is this some sort of multi-day event? Did the wavier cover that time period? If she walked the course first, does that mean that now she is responsible because she should have known the danger (I'm going with the tree was there during her walk through)?
Nobody likes lawyers, until you need one.

thirdgenbird
12-27-2014, 06:21 PM
According to the comments, it would have been better if she died so I'm not sure how much faith I put in those.
It does sound like it happened before the race. Raises interesting questions that I don't know the answers to. Is the Race still liable for things that happen on the/their course before the actual event? Is this some sort of multi-day event? Did the wavier cover that time period? If she walked the course first, does that mean that now she is responsible because she should have known the danger (I'm going with the tree was there during her walk through)?
Nobody likes lawyers, until you need one.

Unfortunaly, it seems most news articles are so bias and incomplete that I don't trust them either. I hope this woman heals and gets over her pain. I also hope that lawsuits like this don't put an end to racing and mountain bike courses. If the organizer is liable, how is that any different than the land owner of your local trail? Who decides what is an acceptable risk? what is considered safe for all participants? Maybe she should also sue the bike manufacturer because it didn't let her ride over the obsticle with ease.

I am glad I grew up in a world where jungle gyms and merry go rounds still existed.

Mikej
12-27-2014, 06:49 PM
This one doesn't seem like it was an XC course, rather a Super D course which is primarily a downhill type course, with some uphill climbing.... I think rocks/roots/trees are kind of expected in a course like this.

I would say a downed tree - I'm thinking of a 12-16" diameter across the course is unacceptable, especially a super d course where you are all out -xc or not, I still would think the race director would would not want to risk it. Also, most sanctioned races are covered for the pre ride. In our off road series we are generally only legally allowed to ride the race and the day before during specified times for the pre ride- look, it is a shame she was hurt, but just because you sign a waiver doesn't mean if you break your neck or and back its on you, otherwise why would you need insurance??godspeed to the lady and her heeling

dustyrider
12-27-2014, 06:50 PM
Lisa Belair should ask herself: what would Tracy Hannah do?

I do hope Lisa heals up and rides another day!

ofcounsel
12-27-2014, 07:15 PM
I would say a downed tree - I'm thinking of a 12-16" diameter across the course is unacceptable, especially a super d course where you are all out -xc or not, I still would think the race director would would not want to risk it. Also, most sanctioned races are covered for the pre ride. In our off road series we are generally only legally allowed to ride the race and the day before during specified times for the pre ride- look, it is a shame she was hurt, but just because you sign a waiver doesn't mean if you break your neck or and back its on you, otherwise why would you need insurance??godspeed to the lady and her heeling


You're right that the race director should have given that one some thought. It's a shame she was hurt, and hopefully, she heals up. Being permanently hurt sucks. And yeah, to the extent the court finds negligence on the part of the race organization, the waiver likely isn't gonna protect them.

oldpotatoe
12-28-2014, 06:02 AM
This will put a chill into race organizers...

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/12/fallen_tree_causes_portland_mo.html

Questions?

Were the racers informed of the course change.

Was it marked.


Whats the opinion? You sign a waiver & thats it? Generally I agree 100%, but in this case did the racer come upon something she literally didn't sign up for?

She'll get the $. It is going to be cheaper for the race organizers, etc. to settle than the $ of going to court. Regardless of whether or not her case has merit, regardless of releases or waivers signed.

shovelhd
12-28-2014, 08:04 AM
I can only speak for USAC permitted events, but if this happened during the permit hours, the promoter is covered by USAC insurance as long as the rider has a license. Outside the hours, she is on her own. No license, the promoter is at risk. Not enough detail.

nighthawk
12-28-2014, 08:16 AM
Unfortunaly, it seems most news articles are so bias and incomplete that I don't trust them either. I hope this woman heals and gets over her pain. I also hope that lawsuits like this don't put an end to racing and mountain bike courses. If the organizer is liable, how is that any different than the land owner of your local trail? Who decides what is an acceptable risk? what is considered safe for all participants? Maybe she should also sue the bike manufacturer because it didn't let her ride over the obsticle with ease.

I am glad I grew up in a world where jungle gyms and merry go rounds still existed.

In Massachusetts landowner liability is limited unless a use-fee is charged for the activity:

Any landowner permitting use of his or her property for recreation without charging a fee is not liable for injuries to recreational users of the property except in cases of willful, wanton, or reckless conduct by the owner. (MGL Ch. 21 17C)

I wonder where a race would fall in this definition considering an entrance fee is charged and prizes are awarded. Also, I have no idea if Oregon has a similar law.

malcolm
12-28-2014, 08:41 AM
I agree with Ti on an individual basis I get that she has a maybe permanent injury and is looking for help someone to blame etc., but you can't really think about this on the basis of the injured party, she was doing something inherently dangerous and got hurt. If there is legal action to mitigate every potential injury there will be no more racing as people always have and always will get hurt. Unless you can prove something was beyond the pale that's the risk you take. I don't recall hearing of anyone else injured by that obstacle so apparently people were able to get over or around it.

I was recently mtn biking in Park City, Ut and got a bit lost up above the mid mountain trail and wound up on a serious down hill course by accident I quickly realized I was over my head for my ability and bike and frequently stopped and went around obstacles and drops. Had I gotten hurt it would have been my fault for not being able to read the map.