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dekindy
12-23-2014, 07:51 PM
I know this has been discussed before but could not come up with a search that answered my questions.

My Shimano Ultegra, WH-6500 if I remember correctly and purchased new in 2006, has approximately 30,000 miles. Respected LBS mechanic says that it probably has one more good season before the wear and tear will start manifesting it self in nagging, reduced performance. He recommends that I consider replacing it within the next year or so. I have to admit that their maintenance and advice has been great because I have had trouble-free cycling miles and I respect their concern. Does this sound reasonable?

Except for the Suntour? group that came on my 1983 Nishiki International, I have either had Shimano 600 or Ultegra components. Never saw the need to pay twice as much for Dura Ace versus Ultegra and considered the Ultegra to be the best bang for the buck in terms of performance and longevity. Now wondering if Shimano 105 11-speed might be the best price point or should I stick with Ultegra? Also considering Ultegra Di2.

Already recently purchased 11-speed compatible Shimano Ultegra wheels.

shovelhd
12-23-2014, 07:55 PM
5800 and 6870 are in two different strata. If your frame isn't set up for internal routing (probably not) then electronic becomes less attractive. I'd go with the 5800 and buy a nice set of wide 11 speed wheels to go with it.

dekindy
12-23-2014, 08:02 PM
5800 and 6870 are in two different strata. If your frame isn't set up for internal routing (probably not) then electronic becomes less attractive. I'd go with the 5800 and buy a nice set of wide 11 speed wheels to go with it.

Thanks, already had 11-speed compatible wheels. Was wondering if lack of internal routing would be a consideration?

berserk87
12-23-2014, 08:44 PM
I am wondering specifically what nagging, reduced performance the mechanic has in mind when he mentions this - is he thinking drivetrain contact points? shifters? derailleurs? bearings? Many of these issues can be addressed without replacing a groupset - unless you want to replace the groupset for the sake of something new - and that can be a motivator as much as any wear and tear issue.

I'm still riding Dura Ace 7700 9-speed and have a ton of mileage on it - 25,000 in the past 3 years alone. I have replaced the right shifter and the rear derailleur (because of a broken mounting screw - replaced with a new-old-stock 7800 model). I changed the bottom bracket due to a crankset switch. I've had to replace cassettes, chains, chain rings, derailleur pulleys, and brake pads.

I might be the worst guy to opine on this topic. I ride stuff until it breaks. I've been trying to nurse this group for as long as I can - I really like the 7700 group. It's good stuff.

One of my teammates says he rotates groups out every 4 years, no matter what. He has more spare cash than me, and no kids either - so his world is different.

My threshold for a new group will be when my shifters take a dump on me. At that point, replacement options on something with minimal wear will be few.

Lanternrouge
12-23-2014, 08:46 PM
Thanks, already had 11-speed compatible wheels. Was wondering if lack of internal routing would be a consideration?

Frames without internal routing can be set up for Di2, but it looks kind of ugly. While I haven't used a 5800 group, I have used a 6800 group and it is really nice. If you're contemplating getting a new group within the next year and have the ability to get an 11 speed group now, I would recommend it since the new stuff is really nice. At least for me, the biggest thing is that the brake hoods are a lot more comfortable.

rnhood
12-23-2014, 08:48 PM
I have 25K miles on my 7900 and it doesn't miss a lick. I bet it does another 25 without missing a lick. Smooth, refined and reliable.

AngryScientist
12-23-2014, 08:58 PM
in theory, you really never NEED to replace a full groupset.

considering the wear items, you could certainly replace chainrings, bb's, chains, and cassettes to infinity. you'll never wear out a set of crank arms or FD, and you can always replace the jockey wheels on a RD. once the ratchet mechanism in your shifters is done, you can replace them independently. 9 and 10 speed shimano shifters are getting harder to find, but they are certainly out there, with alternatives to consider.

that said, sometimes, especially given the price of mechanical 5800 and 6800 right now, it's worth it to just hang a new group on the bike and freshen it up rather than replace jockey wheels and chainrings...

gemship
12-23-2014, 09:06 PM
Well the new 105 11 speed seems to be the bees knees and since you already bought the compatible wheelset I say go for it! Also agree with Angry Scientist.It just seems easier to freshen up a bike with a new group and keep up with the evolution. Take your time and find a good deal since you got like a year or so to do it as your mechanic advises.

josephr
12-23-2014, 09:20 PM
I might be the worst guy to opine on this topic. I ride stuff until it breaks. I've been trying to nurse this group for as long as I can - I really like the 7700 group. It's good stuff.




+1 -- ride it until it breaks! replace the consumables when needed and there's still plenty of good used parts around.

Dead Man
12-23-2014, 09:21 PM
I have 25K miles on my 7900 and it doesn't miss a lick. I bet it does another 25 without missing a lick. Smooth, refined and reliable.

Such an awesome group... mine has just been absolutely perfect. I've been tempted to grab the 9000 from Ribble at half cost, but just can't justify replacing perfection for 1 cog

mtb_frk
12-23-2014, 09:44 PM
I've been thinking the same thing with my xtr group on my mountain bike. It's circa 2006 I think, but there is really nothing wrong with it. I think I am going to keep running it until something breaks that forces me to upgrade/update. I have for sure got my money's worth out it. Maybe in a couple years the electronic xtr will be more reasonably priced.

Cat3roadracer
12-23-2014, 10:16 PM
I am wondering specifically what nagging, reduced performance the mechanic has in mind when he mentions this - is he thinking drivetrain contact points? shifters? derailleurs? bearings? Many of these issues can be addressed without replacing a groupset - unless you want to replace the groupset for the sake of something new - and that can be a motivator as much as any wear and tear issue.

I'm still riding Dura Ace 7700 9-speed and have a ton of mileage on it - 25,000 in the past 3 years alone. I have replaced the right shifter and the rear derailleur (because of a broken mounting screw - replaced with a new-old-stock 7800 model). I changed the bottom bracket due to a crankset switch. I've had to replace cassettes, chains, chain rings, derailleur pulleys, and brake pads.

I might be the worst guy to opine on this topic. I ride stuff until it breaks. I've been trying to nurse this group for as long as I can - I really like the 7700 group. It's good stuff.

One of my teammates says he rotates groups out every 4 years, no matter what. He has more spare cash than me, and no kids either - so his world is different.

My threshold for a new group will be when my shifters take a dump on me. At that point, replacement options on something with minimal wear will be few.

7700 was the best group Shimano ever made. All of it lasted too long.

Cat3roadracer
12-23-2014, 10:17 PM
Such an awesome group... mine has just been absolutely perfect. I've been tempted to grab the 9000 from Ribble at half cost, but just can't justify replacing perfection for 1 cog

But it goes to 11.

fogrider
12-23-2014, 10:24 PM
in theory, you really never NEED to replace a full groupset.

considering the wear items, you could certainly replace chainrings, bb's, chains, and cassettes to infinity. you'll never wear out a set of crank arms or FD, and you can always replace the jockey wheels on a RD. once the ratchet mechanism in your shifters is done, you can replace them independently. 9 and 10 speed shimano shifters are getting harder to find, but they are certainly out there, with alternatives to consider.

that said, sometimes, especially given the price of mechanical 5800 and 6800 right now, it's worth it to just hang a new group on the bike and freshen it up rather than replace jockey wheels and chainrings...

yeah, it use to be that I would ride it til it broke...but if you're in the N+1 crowd, get what you want and the parts just trickle down to the next project. I think the only thing that may not be rebuildable are the shifters...at least shimano. not sure about sram. campy seems to be ever rebuildable.

berserk87
12-23-2014, 10:31 PM
yeah, it use to be that I would ride it til it broke...but if you're in the N+1 crowd, get what you want and the parts just trickle down to the next project. I think the only thing that may not be rebuildable are the shifters...at least shimano. not sure about sram. campy seems to be ever rebuildable.

I think that Sram shifters are rebuildable - at least they can be serviced. The bummer with the Shimano shifters is that, for the most part, they are sealed and inaccessible. Spraying various lubes, cleaners, and concoctions seems to be the only way to resuscitate them when they start getting buggy.

I do recall that I took apart a 105 8 speed shifter years ago to fix a return spring that had come loose. This model had some limited serviceability. I had to invoke my wife's assistance on that one. She is much more patient and mechanically inclined than me. She's also prettier and smells better.

ofcounsel
12-24-2014, 12:00 AM
I've been thinking the same thing with my xtr group on my mountain bike. It's circa 2006 I think, but there is really nothing wrong with it. I think I am going to keep running it until something breaks that forces me to upgrade/update. I have for sure got my money's worth out it. Maybe in a couple years the electronic xtr will be more reasonably priced.

The one thing I would consider upgrading are the brakes. The newer XTR and XT brakes/rotors are just amazing in terms of both outright braking power and modulation. This is one area where you would definitely notice an improvement.

cmg
12-24-2014, 12:28 AM
you really only to replace the chain, chainrings, derailluer jockey wheels and the cassette. or you can cobble as it wears. kind of fun. i ride campy so repair and replace as i need to. Even the 11 speed isn't from the same group. have fun, experiment.

bewheels
12-24-2014, 06:13 AM
I find that I don't realize that old groups are getting sloppy and less crisp until I get on a bike with a new group.
Things do wear out.

Yes, replacing cables help.
Yes, replacing chains/cassettes help.

IMHO, once you are into replacing shifters and derailleurs for whatever reason...you no longer have an "old group". Perhaps it is still an old group model but the actual parts are not old.

oldpotatoe
12-24-2014, 07:03 AM
I know this has been discussed before but could not come up with a search that answered my questions.

My Shimano Ultegra, WH-6500 if I remember correctly and purchased new in 2006, has approximately 30,000 miles. Respected LBS mechanic says that it probably has one more good season before the wear and tear will start manifesting it self in nagging, reduced performance. He recommends that I consider replacing it within the next year or so. I have to admit that their maintenance and advice has been great because I have had trouble-free cycling miles and I respect their concern. Does this sound reasonable?

Except for the Suntour? group that came on my 1983 Nishiki International, I have either had Shimano 600 or Ultegra components. Never saw the need to pay twice as much for Dura Ace versus Ultegra and considered the Ultegra to be the best bang for the buck in terms of performance and longevity. Now wondering if Shimano 105 11-speed might be the best price point or should I stick with Ultegra? Also considering Ultegra Di2.

Already recently purchased 11-speed compatible Shimano Ultegra wheels.

Except 6870 is about the price of DA. Depends on what's 'breaking' or wearing out. Sometimes a partial group purchase will fix those things w/o having to buy a whole group. Brakes, for instance, 'may' be just fine. Crankset with '11s' rings, 5800 cogset and chain, 6800 ders and shifters, type thing.

5800 and 6800 are very similar. A close look will reveal materials, finish differences but how it works is almost identical.

Veloo
12-24-2014, 07:47 AM
I've gone through 6500, 6600 and for a few months, 6700.
I liked the feel of the 6500 and 6600 hoods better. Smoothness of the shifting can be argued but I personally didn't notice enough of a difference to take one over the other.
I do like the newer cranks with the external BB bearings waaaaay better than the square taper or spline BB. I never liked the look of my 6500 crank. It just looked wimpy to me. Since I've gone a retro route lately, I don't like the dark grey only offering for Ultegra so the silver 5800 is a nice to see.
If you do your own wrenching, I think you'll like to see and feel what the new innovations have to offer.
Not sure if it's just me thinking this but older Shimano doesn't seem to have the same type of nostalgic value as old Campy.
So hey, why not treat yourself to a new gruppo? If you can afford it, treat yourself. Why bother analyzing if it's a logical thing to do? We love the stuff as much as the sport itself so if it makes ya happy, go for it!

Deucer01
12-24-2014, 09:41 AM
I was going to keep my 5700 groupset that came standard on my 2013 Scott Foil 40 until it died. But the Ribble sale on the 5800 groupset for $360 and glowing reports convinced me to upgrade now. :banana:

Seramount
12-24-2014, 10:16 AM
scrapping an entire group because some psychic wrench predicts that its performance *may* start to decline in a year or so...???

if you have money burning a hole in your wallet, feel free to follow that sketchy advice.

however, if you simply *want* something new, go ahead and get it. just don't fall for the scare-mongering sales tactics.

oldpotatoe
12-24-2014, 10:55 AM
scrapping an entire group because some psychic wrench predicts that its performance *may* start to decline in a year or so...???

if you have money burning a hole in your wallet, feel free to follow that sketchy advice.

however, if you simply *want* something new, go ahead and get it. just don't fall for the scare-mongering sales tactics.

Big sigh, 30,000 miles, 10 years?

Owner- how's my bike?
Wrench-it's fine

Owner rides, RH shifter stops working.

Owner to wrench- RH shifter failed
Wrench-yep, stuff pretty old, not surprised.
Owner-WHAT? Why didn't you say so???

'Scare mongering'?? Don't think so. The worse that could happen is the gent rides it, it continues to work, he buys nothing.

IMHO

dekindy
12-27-2014, 07:16 PM
My LBS has my trust so I was just wanting to bounce this off the forum and get a general idea of everybody's experience.

It is my impression that compared to my the folks that I ride with I use my gearing and shift a lot more than the average cyclist so that is something that I also take into account. Why stand up on hills when you can shift your front derailleur and stay seated and save energy? That is my motto.

smead
12-27-2014, 07:35 PM
I am wondering specifically what nagging, reduced performance the mechanic has in mind when he mentions this - is he thinking drivetrain contact points? shifters? derailleurs? bearings? Many of these issues can be addressed without replacing a groupset - unless you want to replace the groupset for the sake of something new - and that can be a motivator as much as any wear and tear issue.

I'm still riding Dura Ace 7700 9-speed and have a ton of mileage on it - 25,000 in the past 3 years alone. I have replaced the right shifter and the rear derailleur (because of a broken mounting screw - replaced with a new-old-stock 7800 model). I changed the bottom bracket due to a crankset switch. I've had to replace cassettes, chains, chain rings, derailleur pulleys, and brake pads.

I might be the worst guy to opine on this topic. I ride stuff until it breaks. I've been trying to nurse this group for as long as I can - I really like the 7700 group. It's good stuff.

One of my teammates says he rotates groups out every 4 years, no matter what. He has more spare cash than me, and no kids either - so his world is different.

My threshold for a new group will be when my shifters take a dump on me. At that point, replacement options on something with minimal wear will be few.

Yep +1 .., the thread in the classifieds about dirt cheap ribble groups is sure tempting, but my 7700 groups still work like butter. I have tens of thousands of miles on some of the bits including shifters and cassettes, they just last and last ...

cash05458
12-27-2014, 08:26 PM
yet another plus for ride it until it breaks...I mean, I finally retired a 21 year old 7 speed campy chorus set just out of mercy...not all of it as I still use the mono brakes on a new build, and oh yeah...the cranskset as well...you have nothing to lose (well, maybe the price of a new groupset if you believe your mechanic...it's called sales right?)...

Tony
12-27-2014, 08:56 PM
Yep +1 .., the thread in the classifieds about dirt cheap ribble groups is sure tempting, but my 7700 groups still work like butter. I have tens of thousands of miles on some of the bits including shifters and cassettes, they just last and last ...

Same with my 7700 group, "like butter". I do want a new group, campy something but this group keeps on working like its new.

Ozrider
12-27-2014, 11:43 PM
I generally upgrade whenever new Dura Ace comes out, and migrate groups to my older bikes. Recently took off 7700 that still works fine, and will probably find its way onto a Colnago Dream frame I have waiting to be built. With 3-4 bikes it means I have groupsets spanning 12 or more years.
I skipped DA 7900 as I didn't think it was an improvement on 7800 and tied SRAM Red instead.
Currently have DA 7700 (spare) , 7800 on my custom steel, 9000 on my Z5 and Red 2012 on my Madone.