Is pedal float always a good thing?

[FastforaSlowGuy]

During an easy trainer ride yesterday, I started wondering: is pedal float a good thing? I have ridden Speedplay for years, and before that Time. I've never ridden a fully static cleat. I tend to kick my heel out at the bottom of the stroke, and am otherwise pretty much on center.

But despite my natural tendency, I wonder if my knees would be better/worse with less float? Put another way, I wonder if the sideways foot movement is actually bad for knees because it takes it out of the hip-knee-ankle alignment?

I'm sure others have given this more thought.

[velomonkey]

I have float, always had on the road and the years I did MTB racing I never had float (well, very, very little float). I am sure I could get away with no float, but I think the bigger question is Souplesse (http://www.velominati.com/tradition/look-pro-souplesse/).

Yea, forgot about "looking pro" - it's all about an efficient stroke. With efficiency comes a reduction in knee problems. I'm a big fan of working on this a number of ways, mostly old school, but this time of year it means rollers. For sure I'm in the minority there. Then again, I see people with bad knees and people who can't peddle and reach for their bottle while peddling. So maybe I'm on to something maybe not.

So . . . get off my lawn you kids!!!!

[Mr. Pink]

I think I damaged my knee a few years ago going with less float. You better be totally perfect with that cleat placement if you decide to go with no to little float.

[carpediemracing]

For many years the only float I had was whatever wear the pedals had in their bearings.

However I've been on the mid-float cleats for a long time. Initially, when I went off the no-float-at-all set up, I went to Look pedals. With them I used the black cleats, finding the reds to be a bit much with 9 deg of float. Later I went to the gray (4.5 deg? something minimal). I've bought but not installed new black cleats (zero degree).

Having done that I think there's something to be said for some float. It's very hard to get exact cleat placement if you're not sure what it is. For me, after something like 10-12 years of no-float set ups, I had a pretty good idea of where the cleat needs to be. I learned a bit when I went with longer cranks (my feet point out more apparently) but overall my cleat position hasn't changed much at all.

When I get new shoes, or install different cleats (like when I tried red again), I try to adjust my cleats to be in the center of the movement for most of my pedal stroke. In other words I don't use the float as leeway for wrong cleat angle, I want to have equal amounts of float to the left and right.

If you do this then you're probably in a pretty good position to try a limited float cleat/pedal, like a 9 deg max, 4.5-7 deg "average", and zero degree minimum.

Your question has motivated me a bit, as I was just cleaning up the bike room. I may install some black cleats and see how it goes.

[jdp211]

It's not always a good thing. When I first started riding I used Speedplays as I have some knee issues (not enough cartilage to support the joint) and was told that having float would ease the discomfort. As I started riding more, the muscles in my knees strengthened enough to support the joint and I ended up dialing back the float in the Speedplays until it was minimal. In an effort to use a simpler system and cheaper cleats, I switched to Looks with grey cleats. I don't have knee pain issues anymore and am happier with the Look system. Anecdotal, I know, but not all knee issues can be solved with float.
That said, a completely static cleat likely has an even narrower range of fit than something like 15* of float.

[ceolwulf]

I can only report that I recently went from Shimano pedals with rotational float only to Time with sideways float as well and my knees feel better for it.

[bart998]

I like the slight float in my Look Keo's.... but couldn't stand the free movement in the Speedplays I used to have. Even after I learned to live with it. After growing up with slotted cleats/toe clips, that much movement felt wrong.

[RedRider]

"The knee can be a victim of the hip or foot"
In the absence of actual knee conditions (surgery or injury) most knee issues can be resolved by addressing the foot or hip.
A bicycle fitting should include an analysis of (1) the hip/pelvis; correct position on the saddle, correct saddle height, saddle setback, correct saddle support, correct crank arm length facilitating fluid hip rotation, AND (2) the foot; proper fitting shoes, pedal spindle length, and cleat placement.
After observing and possible making changes to the above, any remaining abnormal knee tracking or foot movements can be addressed with specific shoe footbeds or cleat wedges. Stretching exercises can also help increase flexibility and range of motion.
Pedal selection should be made prior or at the fitting when any adjustment would be made.
Speedplay make great pedals but using the X-Series with freefloat if you have a knee issue is not solving the problem. If your knee tracks 3 cm off center each pedal stroke. At 85rpm for a 3 hr ride... that's a lot of unnecessary wear and tear on the knee.
There are times when riders' issues require a consultation with a PT, Chiropractor or Orthopedist...

[Ken Robb]

I learned quite a bit about cleat placement for me by riding flat touring pedals with smooth-ish rubber-soled shoes that allowed me to try different foot/pedal relationships on the same ride(s). It didn't take long for me to realize what position felt best in most conditions. I also realized that being clipped in wasn't THAT helpful for most of MY riding. The biggest advantage was for riding mtn. bikes on rough terrain where being clipped in prevented my feet from getting bounced off the pedals. :)

[FastforaSlowGuy]

"The knee can be a victim of the hip or foot"
In the absence of actual knee conditions (surgery or injury) most knee issues can be resolved by addressing the foot or hip.
A bicycle fitting should include an analysis of (1) the hip/pelvis; correct position on the saddle, correct saddle height, saddle setback, correct saddle support, correct crank arm length facilitating fluid hip rotation, AND (2) the foot; proper fitting shoes, pedal spindle length, and cleat placement.
After observing and possible making changes to the above, any remaining abnormal knee tracking or foot movements can be addressed with specific shoe footbeds or cleat wedges. Stretching exercises can also help increase flexibility and range of motion.
Pedal selection should be made prior or at the fitting when any adjustment would be made.
Speedplay make great pedals but using the X-Series with freefloat if you have a knee issue is not solving the problem. If your knee tracks 3 cm off center each pedal stroke. At 85rpm for a 3 hr ride... that's a lot of unnecessary wear and tear on the knee.
There are times when riders' issues require a consultation with a PT, Chiropractor or Orthopedist...

This is where my head was going yesterday. I have had 3 surgeries on my left knee (ACL, some tweaking of that same ACL, meniscus), so while I don't have pain now I'm always thinking about how I can reduce further wear and tear. I ride Speedplay Zeros and was thinking about narrowing the available float. I figure if my foot rotates 15* off center, that puts my joints out of alignment. Doing that 90x a minute for 180 minutes is a lot of sliding, and I have to think there is more wear and tear in that than if I were locked in.

Someone else made that point that float should not be used to account for mis-aligned cleats, but maybe that's the only reason for it. Getting cleats set up 100% perfect is damn hard, and I'm not going to pay $75 to have it done professionally every time I change shoes or swap out cleats (marking the sole has its limits).

[OtayBW]

I recently re-set (moved back) my cleat position a few months ago for the first time in several years. Among other things, this had an immediate effect of stabilizing my ankles laterally which in turn controlled the amount of float that I was using. If your ankles are stable, you don't need as much float as you might otherwise....

[shovelhd]

The nice thing about Zeros is that you can dial the float back gradually. Try a turn at a time.

I like some float because it reduces the hard torsion hit when hammering.

[ultraman6970]

I think the Op needs to check if he needs more support.

[kenw]

for my damaged left knee. Love those Speedplay X-series

[oldpotatoe]

During an easy trainer ride yesterday, I started wondering: is pedal float a good thing? I have ridden Speedplay for years, and before that Time. I've never ridden a fully static cleat. I tend to kick my heel out at the bottom of the stroke, and am otherwise pretty much on center.

But despite my natural tendency, I wonder if my knees would be better/worse with less float? Put another way, I wonder if the sideways foot movement is actually bad for knees because it takes it out of the hip-knee-ankle alignment?

I'm sure others have given this more thought.

Do you have any symptoms of knee/foot/ankle problems now?

'Float' is not a panacea for anything. If you have knee issues, more float or less may or may not help. Depends on you, your anatomy, your bike fit.

[Rusty Luggs]

I personally don’t like pedal float, and don’t think it is some universal fix. I use fixed Look Keo cleats, carefully positioned. Float actually tends to create knee discomfort for me, like when cleats get worn and a bit sloppy, or when I have ridden long distance (D2R2 180) on Time mtn pedals with float.

[Charles M]

YES.

For some people, Pedal float is always a good thing.

[unterhausen]

I like float. For whatever reason, my knees seem to feel uncomfortable in different orientations at different times. Speedplay X seems a little wierd at first, but I really like the float. The Speedplays are only on my trainer right now, but it's nice not to have to worry about my knees


OTOH, I decided to go with cyclocross shoes and Shimano SPD cleats, and I can tolerate the minimal float they offer fairly well.

[merlincustom1]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[malcolm]

I learned quite a bit about cleat placement for me by riding flat touring pedals with smooth-ish rubber-soled shoes that allowed me to try different foot/pedal relationships on the same ride(s). It didn't take long for me to realize what position felt best in most conditions. I also realized that being clipped in wasn't THAT helpful for most of MY riding. The biggest advantage was for riding mtn. bikes on rough terrain where being clipped in prevented my feet from getting bounced off the pedals. :)

I've always used look pedals all the way back to the original ones and they had no float, the last looks I've bought were cx6 pre keo and I got about 6 pairs and run them with little float but I know exactly where I like my cleats.

Interesting with mtn bikes I've moved to almost exclusively to platforms. You must have good shoes to ride platforms on really rough terrain. I use 5.10 but can't recall the model a good pedal with lots of grippers is also a must. My feet move around a lot but I can't recall having a foot come off a pedal in a long while and it's really nice to be able to drop a foot in the low speed technical stuff.

[Ti Designs]

Having pedals that are lighter than the water they displace is a very good thing. What? Did I say something stupid again??

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Having pedals that are lighter than the water they displace is a very good thing. What? Did I say something stupid again??


Um, I don't get it.


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[cnighbor1]

Pedal float
What I do on a side street is look down at my knees and see they are staying the same plane. On my looks pedals I can adjust from ) degrees to 3 to 6 to 9
to adjust float.
Best if you knees stay in the same plane. but to achieve that if not in the same plane and float doesn't solve it than your into adjusting a lot of variables. Like canting you shoe etc.
Charles

[drsmile]

Having pedals that are lighter than the water they displace is a very good thing. What? Did I say something stupid again??

Only if you're cycling into a river! I have bad knees, and I need pedals with float. I use Time RXS pedals and they work great for me. They're obsolete now, but I've heard the newer Time pedals eat cleats and I have enough RXS cleats to last me at least another 5 years, probably ten.

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[Plum Hill]

I rode for about 20 years using Look/Shimano black cleats; couldn't stand the red ones. I did have to watch the alignment, though. Found a guy with the Fit Kit RAD tools. He could dial them in perfectly.

Went to Time RXS some time ago and liked them with the spring set at the tightest setting.

Now, having had one knee replacement with another on the horizon, I'm riding a demo pair of Speedplay Zeros. My main concern at this time is having the default centering. I'm not sure where the knee wants to be at this time.

I will say the Speedplays seem to me a maintenance headache.

[djg21]

I rode for about 20 years using Look/Shimano black cleats; couldn't stand the red ones. I did have to watch the alignment, though. Found a guy with the Fit Kit RAD tools. He could dial them in perfectly.

Went to Time RXS some time ago and liked them with the spring set at the tightest setting.

Now, having had one knee replacement with another on the horizon, I'm riding a demo pair of Speedplay Zeros. My main concern at this time is having the default centering. I'm not sure where the knee wants to be at this time.

I will say the Speedplays seem to me a maintenance headache.

I've used Speedplay since Speedplay started making pedals. I too have a very compromised knee and finally had a TKR 2 yrs ago at age 49, after my knee became completely unstable as a result of a lot of ligament damage over the years. Before my TKR, I could not even bunny hop my bike without feeling my lower leg separate from my upper leg, and climbing out of the saddle was very uncomfortable.

I actually have never needed a lot of float. I started using speedplay before my knee became an issue because I liked the easy, double-sided entry when racing crits. Even now, I adjust my Zeros so that my heels cannot hit my chainstays, and I can rotate my heels outward only a couple degrees (at most) before the pedals release.

Speedplays are incredibly easy to set up, and are among the easiest pedals for fitters to work with because they can be shimmed easily, and there are multiple spindle lengths available. For the year before my TKR, I had to use a lot of valgus under my cleat to unload the medial compartment of my knee when riding. This was easy to do with a couple of wedged shims under the cleat.

Maintenance really is a non-issue. The Zero cleats last far longer than the X series, which developed flat spots on the retention clips IME. I spray my Zero cleats with dry Teflon lube 1x / week, and pump in new grease from time to time after the pedals get wet. I tend not to walk or run much in my cycling shoes, which are, after all, for cycling. They obviously can become contaminated if used to walk through dirt and mud. But even dirt roads have not been a problem, and at most I've had to bang my shoes against my pedals to dislodge any debris before clipping in.

I have started using keep-on covers, which definitely stop the bottoms of the cleats from wearing, and are far less slippery and easier to walk in while on asphalt. http://www.keeponkovers.com/Product.html.
These should not be necessary if you use the new supposedly walkable cleats Speedplay is selling this season.

The only people I wouldn't recommend Speedplay to are triathletes who must run in their shoes during transitions, often on asphalt or crushed gravel. The metal surface on the bottom of the cleats make shoes too slippery. This should not be an issue with the new cleats.

[aaronka]

I rode speedplays for years without comparing. When I got into Dura Ace 7810's my life was changed for the better. While still some float I felt the connection and stability far outweighed the higher amount of float the Speedplays had. Now when I ride speedplays I feel like my feet are all over the place, I have a hard time getting connected.

[josephr]

Having pedals that are lighter than the water they displace is a very good thing. What? Did I say something stupid again??

Ahhh....but what also floats???...a duck!....so, if the pedals weigh more than a duck, she's a....a....a witch!

[lucasfarr92]

What Mr. Pink said is spot on. If your fit it correct, perfect, then float is not necessary. Float is there so there can be a degree of imperfection in your fit/flexibility, etc. Some float for most people is good and can stop injuries.

[bironi]

Who knows? I find it hard to read and figure out my own body's quirks. I can only relate my story and interpretation. There is a bit of snake oil in all these discussions.

[Ti Designs]

Ahhh....but what also floats???...a duck!....so, if the pedals weigh more than a duck, she's a....a....a witch!

So if she uses Shimano SPD-SL yellow cleats or Time pedals, she's a witch - burn her!!!

And what do we burn apart from witches???

[Ti Designs]

If your fit it correct, perfect, then float is not necessary.

This is why a bike fitter with a degree in physics and a strong background in mechanics takes classes in med school...

Let's back thus up to a more simple mechanical model. You have a crank, the pedal at the end of the crank travels in a circle parallel to the frame. you have a leg made up of three segments and three pivots. In this simple model we'll say the pivots are single planes of rotation, like a hinge. As long as all of the hinges are parallel to the bottom bracket, and the hip-knee-ankle alignment puts the foot on the pedal, everything is fine. If any of those pivots are not parallel with the bottom bracket, rotation of the crank generates torque, and the weakest link will fail.

I don't know of any perfect pivots in the human body. The ankle is defective by design - it's a hinge where one side is non weight bearing, and it's the most weight bearing structure of the body. The knee is a suspension bridge disaster, the ACL and MCL are different lengths - that alone means the eccentricity of the pivot is greater than one (it's not a simple pivot).

The simple fact is that we are trying to interface a human body to a machine. The machine has simple, exact movement, the human body is both a complex structure and a collection of injuries. It's not a simple interface. It's also not an interface that can be characterized by what any one rider uses. What I use has nothing to do with what will work for you, unless you have my back, hips, knees, ankles and feet. If you do, I want them back.

[dawgie]

Years ago I bought some Speedplays after reading so many rave reviews. My knees started bothering me soon after I switched and continued to get worse. So I went back to Looks and SPDs and my knees got better again. Since I didn't change any other fit dimensions such as saddle height or fore/aft placement, I assume it was the float that bothered my knees.

[josephr]

This is why a bike fitter with a degree in physics and a strong background in mechanics takes classes in med school...

Let's back thus up to a more simple mechanical model. You have a crank, the pedal at the end of the crank travels in a circle parallel to the frame. you have a leg made up of three segments and three pivots. In this simple model we'll say the pivots are single planes of rotation, like a hinge. As long as all of the hinges are parallel to the bottom bracket, and the hip-knee-ankle alignment puts the foot on the pedal, everything is fine. If any of those pivots are not parallel with the bottom bracket, rotation of the crank generates torque, and the weakest link will fail.

I don't know of any perfect pivots in the human body. The ankle is defective by design - it's a hinge where one side is non weight bearing, and it's the most weight bearing structure of the body. The knee is a suspension bridge disaster, the ACL and MCL are different lengths - that alone means the eccentricity of the pivot is greater than one (it's not a simple pivot).


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