Intensity Levels

[Splash]

http://www.canal-insep.fr/fr/training-periodization-deep-root-cultural-heritage-and-innovative-paradigms-2013/ei_13_10_va_pr_stephen_seiler-mov

This video reveals some history behind top successful athletes and their training methods - in particular the ratio of intensity training.

The majority surveyed all clearly trained at low intensities (and below their LT) for most of their time and then very hard above their LT, with the balance at the LT.

They did this with a positive impact on increasing their Vo2max.

Interested to learn what intensity level do you train and race at for most of the time you are in the saddle?

What is the ratio of below LT, at LT and above LT for your time?

http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/high-intensity-training-the-latest-evidence
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[Dr Luxurious]

that first link isn't loading


low intensities (and below their LT) for most of their time and then very hard above their LT

yep. intervals are the key and they must be done right: HARD.
riding around for 5 hours at low intensity will make you very good at riding around for 5 hours at low intensity. you'll burn fat and develop muscular mitochondria (which is great) but you won't develop the ability to throw down 4-500 watts for sustained periods or cranks out 1,500+ watts for a sprint.

[Tandem Rider]

Couldn't get the video to load.

IME, to try and answer your question about ratio, it depends.

1. It depends on goals, ie. what type of riding/racing are you planning? Flat metric centuries at a leisure pace, Brevets, hilly road races, criteriums?

2. It depends how far along the path to the goal you are. If the goal is the local club roadrace in 2 weeks then it is too late to start VO's, if it is in 4 months then make a sensible achievable plan and follow through.

3. It depends on the individual physiological makeup. We are all individuals and there is no onesizefitsall training plan, even for the same event. In fact, most of us change things up some each year, even for the same series of races. You have to pay attention to how you feel and how you are responding to the training load. For example, Shovelhd and I were talking on here a few weeks ago, if he did what I do in the off season he would be in a hole and need weeks to climb out. If I followed his plan I would be looking for a dumpster to throw my bike in. We both have raced pretty successfully at the National level. You have to figure out what works for you and pay attention.

[MattTuck]

So, that was interesting.

The big thing I took away from that video was, 4 x 8 minutes @ maximum effort which translates to 90% max heart rate, if I understood it correctly, 2 minutes rest between intervals) twice a week, with 2-3 low intensity sessions each week.

I wish he was more explicit about what he calls low intensity.

[Lewis Moon]

Go Hard Every Time Out

...or at least try. I'm, unfortunately, unable to put in large volumes of miles. A really good week for me is 185 miles or so, and lately it's been hard to get half that. So, I try to go hard whenever I can.
I know there's no substitute for volume, but 3 -5 X longish (10 min) hill intervals at ~90% HRmax or 2 X 20 min at ~80% HRmax seems to help the most. Basically, if I'm not hitting the limit screw at the end I didn't go hard enough.

[ojingoh]

I wish he was more explicit about what he calls low intensity.
As I understand it (@3:17 in the presentation)

http://imgur.com/S8IWKQs.png

[shovelhd]

For example, Shovelhd and I were talking on here a few weeks ago, if he did what I do in the off season he would be in a hole and need weeks to climb out. If I followed his plan I would be looking for a dumpster to throw my bike in. We both have raced pretty successfully at the National level. You have to figure out what works for you and pay attention.

I agree with TR's viewpoint and conclusion.

If your goal with these threads is to start conversation, then you have succeeded. People will always give you their opinions, it's the value for you that is hard to decide. I'm not a pro so I don't train like one, and neither should you.

If your goal is to develop a specific training plan, then you are asking the wrong questions. The answer we give you won't have much value because you haven't given us anything to guide you with. So instead of starting another opinion thread, why don't you tell us what we can help you with. If you want training advice, let us know where you are coming from.

What are your goals for next season and beyond.
Do you have any goal events. What are they and when are they.
How many years have you been riding and or racing seriously.
How many hours per week can you dedicate to cycling based fitness.
Do you wish to continue other types of exercise while training for cycling.

That's a start.

[MattTuck]

From the following table presented, it seems like you don't need to be very specific about the type of riding you want to do. Improvements in VO2max, time to exhaustion, various measures of power, they all respond well to the 4 x 8 regimen.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-skX6FqsahM0/VJnMKFXZUNI/AAAAAAAAHVc/VkROygEGEC0/w604-h411-no/Capture3.PNG


I mean, the take-away for me from that presentation is to be skeptical of training plans that spend a lot of time at or near LT.

[Splash]

Thanks Guys - really appreciate the feedback and thoughts on this video.

Shovelhd - I understand your post and at this stage my aim is to only generate discussion with these threads. No intentions of setting up a training program point at this point in time. These discussions are helping me to understand the background behind it all. By knowing and understanding this information, I will be able to zone in and target specific training program questions in future.

This forum is pretty special and you guys are great!

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[stephenmarklay]

The problem with just about anything you ask, training, nutrition, etc is that you will get supporters of just about anything.

With training, it spans the space of the time crunched cyclist as above - go hard or go home to stick with low endurance for 6 months.

I won't bother to say what I think as I don't know. I am trying to build a strong base and I may concentrate on that all year being away from competitive cycling for a while.

In the short term polarized training is currently in vogue. I will likely go that way some early summer.

Right now its easy unless I am being chased by a dog and then its all out.

[Splash]

Thanks Stephen.

I hear ya!

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[Ti Designs]

riding around for 5 hours at low intensity will make you very good at riding around for 5 hours at low intensity. you'll burn fat and develop muscular mitochondria (which is great) but you won't develop the ability to throw down 4-500 watts for sustained periods or cranks out 1,500+ watts for a sprint.

I would like to argue that point, in season, while on bikes...

I loved that first video, it backs up old school training methods with hard data.

Old school training (base mileage first, and lots of it) goes against what people have had hammered into their heads almost from birth - work hard, no pain no gain, effort = results... Being coachable means that your intellect is stronger than your work ethic. You can watch the video or listen to your coach, shut off your need to work harder and stick with a training plan...

[stephenmarklay]

There is absolutely nothing that most of us can do to put out 400-500 watts for sustained periods. Briefly perhaps and maybe a killer interval but in the end holding half that with a heart rate of 120 is a lot more meaningful in my cycling life.

[Gummee]

Having just completed a block of 'time crunched cycling' type workouts (including racing CX on Sundays) I can say that it WILL make you faster. ...but... There comes a time when I just want to ride my bicycle.

I didn't get into cycling for the intervals/sprints/hill repeats. I got into riding bicycles to *gasp* ride bicycles! So... right now, I'm just riding my bicycle! Intervals will start up again in the spring, getting ready for next fall.

IME the 'go hard every time out' type rides will get you to a certain point. You'll be a great TTer, but that's about it. Rode with a pro triathlete one day 'back when.' Guy had one speed. It was fast as all get out, but he only went one speed.

With intervals/sprints/etc tossed in, you become better able to respond in changes in pace in group rides/races/sportives/etc. 'Course, if you only ever ride by yourself, who cares?! Ride the way that makes you happy.

M

[Ti Designs]

Having just completed a block of 'time crunched cycling' type workouts (including racing CX on Sundays) I can say that it WILL make you faster. ...but... There comes a time when I just want to ride my bicycle.

I haven't entered a race in many years, my need for speed comes from two things. First, I coach riders on the road. Your average 17 year old male cyclist knows everything there is to know about cycling, so they're not going to listen to an old fart like me unless they know I can rip their legs off. Second - and this is the real reason, fast is fun. This is where lots of people say "I don't want to ride fast, I just want to ride" Human nature is to always want more, the "I don't want to ride fast" statement really means they don't want to put in more effort. So, it's really a question of the cost of speed...

If Audi sold the RS4 for the same price as the A4, which one would sell better? They look almost the same, do pretty much the same thing, but the pedal on the right of the RS4 is way more entertaining. That's the point of being fast.

This thread is about the stimuli (training) which makes one fast. Almost everyone thinks that working hard will get you there, or working hard all the time will get you there sooner. 34 years ago I thought the same thing (as a 17 year old male, I thought I knew everything about cycling...), but my coach had me doing base mileage all winter. Building a fast cyclist is like building a house. What you see are windows and hardwood floors, but most of the weight of the house is in that ugly grey mass of concrete known as the foundation. Without that you have a shack. In building a fast rider, the foundation is base mileage. Each pedal stroke is a stress cycle for all of the muscles and connective tissue used, endless low intensity stress cycles get the body ready for much higher intensity to come. My coach and I have a combined total of 80 years of riding, but no injuries related to the stress of pedaling the bike... During base mileage you also learn how to fuel the body for extended periods of effort.

Effective coaching means looking at failures and gaining an understanding of why it happened and how to avoid in next time. I watch a lot of "go hard all the time" riders - it's hard not to, they show up on base mileage rides wanting to use the big chainring. The biggest failure is injury, hard intervals with no foundation can get you there in a hurry. The next failure is not knowing how to fuel for the whole ride. So many of the guys who push the pace from the start wind up cross eyed and off the back after a few hours - that's a training failure. But the failure that this thread has come around to is training the body to go one speed. Racing (any 4 guys wearing lycra and riding bicycles is a bike race) isn't about average speed, racing is about who hangs when it gets really fast. The video in question looked at top level athletes and found when they go fast, they go really fast, but most of the time they're going slow, which is why they can go really fast.

At the beginning of the video Stephen says there's not much data about that first block (the stimuli). I think he's wrong, it's just not the data he collected. If you look at his data, you'll find mostly data sets from modern methods, either heart rate based or power based. What he missed were the old school methods, which were passed from coach to athlete. Clearly there were lots of elite level athletes who knew to build a base. Modern methods use power meters, which overlook the benefits of base mileage.

[malcolm]

Go Hard Every Time Out

...or at least try. I'm, unfortunately, unable to put in large volumes of miles. A really good week for me is 185 miles or so, and lately it's been hard to get half that. So, I try to go hard whenever I can.
I know there's no substitute for volume, but 3 -5 X longish (10 min) hill intervals at ~90% HRmax or 2 X 20 min at ~80% HRmax seems to help the most. Basically, if I'm not hitting the limit screw at the end I didn't go hard enough.

this may work for some and if you only get in a ride or so a week, but if you are really training it will be counter productive.

the fastest guy I ever rode with and also a coach used to say all the time the biggest mistake most cyclists make is riding too hard on easy days and not hard enough on hard days.

[avalonracing]

biggest mistake most cyclists make is riding too hard on easy days and not hard enough on hard days.


That ^ is so true.

And some people cannot be coached. They just don't have the discipline take it easy to build or recover and don't know what going really hard means.

[MattTuck]

Go Hard Every Time Out

...or at least try. I'm, unfortunately, unable to put in large volumes of miles. A really good week for me is 185 miles or so, and lately it's been hard to get half that. So, I try to go hard whenever I can.
I know there's no substitute for volume, but 3 -5 X longish (10 min) hill intervals at ~90% HRmax or 2 X 20 min at ~80% HRmax seems to help the most. Basically, if I'm not hitting the limit screw at the end I didn't go hard enough.

If I interpreted the talk correctly, the shorter intervals you mention are what he is suggesting, though he is saying 4x8 minutes in length is the best combination of accumulated stress. And, only 2 times per week.

[Tandem Rider]

[QUOTE=

the fastest guy I ever rode with and also a coach used to say all the time the biggest mistake most cyclists make is riding too hard on easy days and not hard enough on hard days.[/QUOTE]

I was "forced" to learn this when I was a newly minted 2 back in the day. I spent the summer riding with a National Team member. Easy days I thought I would tip over because we were riding so slow. Hard days, well, lets just say even my earlobes were crying. Sit in the shower and eat a bowl of plain rice afterwards kind of hard.

The specificity of "hard" is individual. Everything from a 3 hour effort to a :20 second effort can be hard. the $100,000 question is what do YOU need to do and when and how much.

If you don't know enough (no shame there) to determine what you need, hire a coach. We all need another set of eyes on us (me included). You will be a lot faster with $1000 worth of coaching than you will be with a set of $2000 carbon wheels.

[fiataccompli]

MAybe I read it wrong, but why wouldn't a power meter be equally helpful for base mileage / low intensity rides? (I mean, to make sure you are low intensity by the #s)


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[Joachim]

MAybe I read it wrong, but why wouldn't a power meter be equally helpful for base mileage / low intensity rides? (I mean, to make sure you are low intensity by the #s)


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100% correct. I use HR, power and perceived effort data for the riders that I coach. Often riders underestimate 'endurance' intensity. They end up riding at recovery pace for three hrs and after using a power meter for a while, they can ride at true endurance intensity without having to look at the power meter, ie ride by feel.

[stephenmarklay]

MAybe I read it wrong, but why wouldn't a power meter be equally helpful for base mileage / low intensity rides? (I mean, to make sure you are low intensity by the #s)


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I am using my power numbers for base training and I think it is useful. I am watching my power at a given heart rate. I do this on the trainer. My hope os that I become more efficient over time.

When I am outside like today I just ride. It snowed and I did about an hour and a half on the mountain bike.

[Ti Designs]

MAybe I read it wrong, but why wouldn't a power meter be equally helpful for base mileage / low intensity rides?

I use a fixed gear for base mileage for a number of reasons. First, it forces you to adapt how you pedal to go up hills, down hills or on the flats - that's a key element of winter training. Second, it forces the rider to spin more efficiently. As the winter goes on I lower my gear, but my speed doesn't go down and effort doesn't go up much. Lastly, two hours on a fixed gear is like three hours on a road bike, you never get a rest and you're always in the wrong gear. Fixed gears and power meters are like cats and vacuum cleaners, they don't play well together. On the fixed gear you try to keep the effort constant, so you get into a hill, you drop your weight into the pedals and the emphasis shifts to the larger muscles. This produces more power. On the flats you have to push the leg speed, so the emphasis shifts to the quads pushing over the top - a bit less power there. On the down hills you just try to get the pedals over the top faster, almost no power. By comparison, the rider with the power meter is trying to hold a steady power number, so they're slow up the hills and really fast down them...

[fiataccompli]

Yeah, I get how a power meter isn't great on fixed (I guess....I have Garmin Vectors, but haven't yet been interested enough to find out how they do or don't do with a fixed driveline). But for most folks, yeah. I also enjoy fixed riding (mostly winter...in theory, year round).

Though I believe I am teachable and coachable (work,college, lack of jail time in life, and actual time working with a cycling coach as data points), I do find going easy enough when I need to go easy to be the hardest


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[Climb01742]

An external measure of effort, power or HR, always helped me more than perceived effort simply because it made it harder to 'cheat' or have my exhausted body convince my mind I was going harder than I really was. Back when I ran competitively, always felt a stopwatch was your best friend and truest critic for same reason. Have your body work and let something else do the quantifying.