Tubulars on a Concrete track

[aramis]

Now just thinking out loud here, but it seems that the consensus is clinchers have less rolling resistance than tubulars.

Lower tire pressures w/ slightly larger tires are now supposedly being more ideal on imperfect surfaces.. so what's the benefit to running a tubular on an ok condition concrete track (like hellyer in San Jose)?

I mean the clincher w/latex tube would be cheaper and faster, the overheating that happens on descents on the road is obviously is not an issue, cornering wouldn't be an issue.

I mean the only benefit I could see is being able to ride out a surprise flat better.. or am I missing something? Almost all the nice track wheels are tubular though.

[Louis]

it seems that the consensus is clinchers have less rolling resistance than tubulars.


I'm neither a tubular-lover nor an expert, but that's not what I've heard.


Let's see what other, more knowledgeable, folks say.

[pinoymamba]

just ride what you got.

i rode both tubular and clincher. i honestly couldn't really tell the difference. my tubular just made more whoosh whoosh noise...

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[Dr Luxurious]

Being able to ride out a flat is no small deal. Especially to those who might be behind you...

[Louis]

I can understand the benefit, but how often do folks flat on the track?

Per mile it's got to be way, way, way less than on the road, given the surface conditions.

[shovelhd]

Tubular wheels are lighter. Tubular track tires are lighter and purposefully built for the track (no protection layer). I don't know of any track specific clinchers.

[ultraman6970]

It depends of the track, but personally having raced in a track with tubulars for eons and after being a user of clincher in the road, I wouldn't even dare to use clinchers in a track.

And that takes me to another issue, the type of tubular and the type of clincher. This is something you have to have in account because in track a clincher or a tubular that has good qualities for the road wont work in a track as good as a real track tubular or a harder non comfy tubular.

For example the 3x50 tubulars and the vittoria rally in a track if you are in a budget will work really good, those tubulars are hard, their characteristic is not be supple with the imperfections, thats why people dont like them too much in the road but if you are in a budget for racing in the track? good choice... 120 psi and good to go. Looking for speed, not comfy stuff in a track.

Tufo road tubulars and tubular clinchers, IMO are too soft in the side walls, if you are attacking in the middle of the banking standing over the pedals the tyres will deform a lot, and when you are in the bottom of the banking even more. You lose speed and handling (you lose confidence) if the tubular or clincher is too soft (this is a thing of opinion and how good the rider is at handling, some riders cant notice crap, others do). Never tried the tufo track tubulars but I imagine that if we are talking about a 19 mm tubular that is hard and doesnt deform, totally different to the road ones, havent tried them so can't tell.

Continental sprinter (any of the 2 models) IMO are too soft for track use. The next model up in 21 or 23s gatorskins are harder, those are good too.

Some veloflex tubulars have the same issue, you need to find the right ones, stay away of the soft super comfy ride road ones, 23s is the way to go.

To finish, there is a reason the manufacturers have track and TT tubulars and usually are like 19 to 23 mm wide and made usually of cotton and natural fibers, totally different beasts compared with the road ones. Since those are expensive and obviously not all the tracks are the same, sometimes those thin tubulars arent the right choice and you have to go with the road ones that deform the least, or the ones that arent soft at all, races are too fast and too short you know, as i said before you want the bike to go fast, not comfy, but it is thing of opinion too.

Hope this helps.

[FlashUNC]

I can understand the benefit, but how often do folks flat on the track?

Per mile it's got to be way, way, way less than on the road, given the surface conditions.

As our class trainer told us about the track: "Bad stuff doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's bad." (Ie: You won't crash often, but if you do, its going to be a nasty one.)

That was my experience with flats too. Folks never got them all that much, but being able to ride out a flat and get out of the way was a huge deal. I wouldn't discount that.

As shovel mentioned, tubular wheels are lighter (nice to have in a race where you're having to adjust to surges in effort on the regular), have track specific tires, and bit more safety margin when a tire goes. And you can run stupid pressure if you want.

And I'm curious where the "clinchers roll easier than tubulars" bit comes from.

[sandyrs]

As our class trainer told us about the track: "Bad stuff doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's bad." (Ie: You won't crash often, but if you do, its going to be a nasty one.)

That was my experience with flats too. Folks never got them all that much, but being able to ride out a flat and get out of the way was a huge deal. I wouldn't discount that.

As shovel mentioned, tubular wheels are lighter (nice to have in a race where you're having to adjust to surges in effort on the regular), have track specific tires, and bit more safety margin when a tire goes. And you can run stupid pressure if you want.

And I'm curious where the "clinchers roll easier than tubulars" bit comes from.

Probably from the time Tony Martin ran clinchers in a Tour De France time trial because Specialized made him, then flatted out. :banana:

[ultraman6970]

From the clincher manufacturers marketing dept maybe?? Since you use track specific tubulars... sure are 19 mm right?? the next question that sure you are guessing is... for you FlahsUNC 25s are faster than 19s?

[Look585]

Now just thinking out loud here, but it seems that the consensus is clinchers have less rolling resistance than tubulars.


Consensus? 100% of elite trackies race on tubulars.


Lower tire pressures w/ slightly larger tires are now supposedly being more ideal on imperfect surfaces.. so what's the benefit to running a tubular on an ok condition concrete track (like hellyer in San Jose)?


The surface at Hellyer is very good; way better than "imperfect" tarmac. No problems running all but the most delicate pista tubs. And even those are fine for your swanky race wheels.

I mean the clincher w/latex tube would be cheaper and faster, the overheating that happens on descents on the road is obviously is not an issue, cornering wouldn't be an issue.


Cheaper? Maybe. Or not.

Faster? Maybe. Or not.

Cornering? Definitely not an issue.

I mean the only benefit I could see is being able to ride out a surprise flat better.. or am I missing something? Almost all the nice track wheels are tubular though.


Don't discount the flat issue. Flats do happen at the track. We don't have big thorn/glass problems, but I have flatted 2x at Hellyer. Both times in the warmup circle. Both times on clinchers.

For training and casual racing, clinchers are fine. For serious racing, nearly everyone is on tubulars. Unless you race *a lot*, a well glued and cared for pair of Corsa Evos will last the whole season and probably the next as well.

[Mark McM]

I'm neither a tubular-lover nor an expert, but that's not what I've heard.

Then you heard wrong. All else being equal*, clinchers have lower rolling resistance than tubulars. This has been confirmed many times in independent testing.

*Rarely is all else equal, and comparing a road clincher and a track tubular is very much an apples/oranges situation.

[Mark McM]

I don't know of any track specific clinchers.

http://www.vittoria.com/tire/diamante-pro-pista/

Given its light weight, thin tread and lack of puncture layer (and that it is a clincher), its rolling resistance is likely very low.

[Mark McM]

Probably from the time Tony Martin ran clinchers in a Tour De France time trial because Specialized made him, then flatted out. :banana:

That happened in 2012. Does this one incident negate his winning the World TT Championship in 2011, 2012 and 2013 on clinchers?

[Hindmost]

http://www.vittoria.com/tire/diamante-pro-pista/

Given its light weight, thin tread and lack of puncture layer (and that it is a clincher), its rolling resistance is likely very low.

Interesting. Are there clincher rims especially suited to track training/low level racing?

[ultraman6970]

That vittoria clincher looks nice.

[Look585]

*Rarely is all else equal, and comparing a road clincher and a track tubular is very much an apples/oranges situation.

You can get awfully close to "ceteris paribus" by running a pair of Zipp 808 Track wheels with the best track tubulars and track clinchers. Have the same rider do a few dozen laps of an indoor velodrome with each set on a few different days with a stopwatch and an SRM. Absolute Crr is irrelevant, but relative Crr would be easily determined.

The fact that elite track racers universally choose tubulars is a pretty strong statement. If the French and British have not done exactly this, I'll eat my hat. They have probably even commissioned custom F&R Mavic Comete disc wheelsets in clinchers (the rims/molds already exist for road TT wheels) to more fully mimic race conditions.

[nooneline]

Look there are always going to be a variety of pros and cons to using either tubulars or clinchers. There is always the ability to say "well if you look at it THIS way then [WHATEVER] actually ISN'T the best."

If I were racing at Hellyer I would use tubulars. Why? Because I would be using high-quality race wheels that I would also use at other velodromes. Because the faster wheels that I would want to use would be tubular wheels.

A lot of people also say "light doesn't matter on the track" but try racing a Madison against the fastest guys in the country when you're accelerating from slow up to 50+kph about 50 times per race. Spin-up matters. Feelings matter.

[Mark McM]

The fact that elite track racers universally choose tubulars is a pretty strong statement. If the French and British have not done exactly this, I'll eat my hat. They have probably even commissioned custom F&R Mavic Comete disc wheelsets in clinchers (the rims/molds already exist for road TT wheels) to more fully mimic race conditions.

The selection of tubulars over clinchers is likely based on "tribal" knowledge, which may or may not be correct or up to date. For example, the lowest bicycle tire rolling resistances ever recorded were for silk track tubulars attached to their rims with shellac. But who mounts tires with shellac anymore? The difference in rolling resistance between clinchers and tubulars is primarily due to the viscous glue layer on a tubular tire, and hard shellac eliminates the viscous glue layer.

Another factor is that carbon rims used to be only available for tubular tires, and only recently have carbon rims become available for clincher tires.

In other words, the preference for tubulars may be based on out-of-date methods and technologies. Perhaps this choice needs an updated analysis.

[nooneline]

The selection of tubulars over clinchers is likely based on "tribal" knowledge, which may or may not be correct or up to date.

This might be part of it. There's also a connected market element going on -
most high-end race gear is tubulars, so if you're selling something as high-end track gear, it's gotta be tubular. There's more room for variation in a larger consumer market like road racers...

But also, elite track sprinters put gear under extreme stress. That's why high pressure tires that behave extremely predictably are preferred. Maybe that's sufficient reason to use tubulars instead of clinchers, too, but I won't pretend to know the science.

Under elite sprinters, track gear experiences stresses that road conditions don't come remotely close to. Strength really matters to people whose training and racing basically only consists of 1500+ watt efforts. For example, lenticular discs are exclusively used because at 45mph on a 43deg track, flat dics like Zipp aren't strong enough.

[Look585]

The selection of tubulars over clinchers is likely based on "tribal" knowledge, which may or may not be correct or up to date.

{snip}

In other words, the preference for tubulars may be based on out-of-date methods and technologies. Perhaps this choice needs an updated analysis.

In an era of "marginal gains" and 7 figure budgets for the top track squads, I cannot believe that the Aussies, Brits, Germans, French, Dutch, etc. have left something as basic as tires to tradition or herding. This can be tested with significant precision using commonly available off the peg equipment and actual racing environments.

Regardless, to the OP, tubs are great at Hellyer. Let me know if you'd like to discuss offline or in person. I'm there often.

[11.4]

Egad. Where to start.

Good track clinchers: Start with the Veloflex Record. It's superb, and made quite amazing on a wide rim. I started training with Veloflex Records on HED Belgium 23 mm rims and have been very impressed by them.

Good clincher rims: They will always be heavier and susceptible to rim failure, especially at higher pressures. Good road clincher rims make good track clincher rims, by and large, but see below.

Remember that on the track, if you are steering on the banking or sprinting (sprinter sprints, not pursuit sprints) you are putting a lot of lateral force on the tire and rim. Very deep rims tend to flex sideways, and tires do so even more. You can't pump up a clincher enough (and don't want to anyway) to stop sidewall flex on the track, though the Veloflex Record/HED Belgium combination is pretty damned good. What tubulars give you on the track is a tire that you can pump to where it doesn't wobble sideways under stress. That's not insignificant. People who have ridden tubulars and try out clinchers generally find that they feel wobbly (some combinations like a 23 mm Vittoria Open Corsa plus a Kinlin deep-section rim is positively scary). I tried dozens of combination in testing for teams I coached, and the Record/Belgium combination is the one that really worked.

The Diamante Pista is a relatively slippery tire on wooden tracks and it has a profile that makes it fairly wobbly unless you are just using it for pursuit. You can use any tire on concrete tracks, subject to the wobbling issue, but on wood The Diamante Pista is nothing remotely like what an Evo Pista or Veloflex Record feels like.

People use road tubulars all the time on the track, but most are using crazy inflation pressures, either too low or too high. Rolling resistance shouldn't be too much of a consideration on a concrete track, because (a) a major component of rolling resistance is the tire's flexing over roughness in the road and (b) track tires should be inflated to a point where rolling resistance isn't something you can do much about. If you are riding a high quality tubular on the track at 180-200 psi, you aren't getting good traction at the tire patch and you are going to be bouncing your rear tire over every joint or irregularity that your track offers. On the other hand, riding pressures at 130 psi or less for tubulars and 120 psi or less for clinchers just gives the sidewalls the latitude to flex or wobble. I usually have riders test different pressures in a range of 125-140 for clinchers and 130-160 for tubulars. Smaller riders can ride less pressure, and pursuits can ride less. Sprinters and heavier riders need the highest pressures, and it's those riders that can avoid rim failures and sidewall wobble by going to tubulars. It's not for rolling resistance but for predictable handling.

Flats? Honestly, if you're up on the banking and you flat, it doesn't really matter whether you are on clincher or tubular. You'll either steer out of it if you have the room to maneuver or if you don't, you'll go down. Sh*t happens. On outdoor tracks, there's often glass or at least chip seal or sharp sand grains on the apron and circling the apron is the best way to get a puncture. Rubbing someone's sidewall with your own is a fast way to blow a tire. Riders can put pedals and other parts of their bike into your tire. Wood splinters on wood tracks can puncture a tire. Drop a chain and it can chafe and blow out the sidewall of a rear tire. And of course if you are on very light tires, almost anything can make them fail. In short, you better plan for flats.

And then there's gluing. Shellac was a great adhesive, but it was a pain to do, a disaster if it wasn't done right, and if it cracked loose, it didn't re-adhere so your tire would then strip off. Hysteresis with shellac was great for rolling resistance, but it was scarcely the reason to use it. Nowadays almost all World Cup teams use Mastik One. Conti is only used when it's sponsored, and often there's a pot of Mastik One that the team mechanic bought with his own money. Fast Tack and other adhesives are pretty much history now, except in Japan where Soyo is common. One of the biggest reasons for riders to use clinchers is when you see a couple trackies mounting fresh tires with tubular tire tape just before an event. That tape simply isn't safe on the track. Even on shallow tracks and slow speeds, I've seen more rolled tires that were taped. There's also a problem with bad gluing jobs, and the French national team (which is notorious for undergluing tubulars) makes lots of good photos with tires rolling during track events. So if you are going to use tubulars, do it the right way and be sure you do it well.

Bottom line: Use tubulars or clinchers for the right reason and for your circumstances. Both can be done badly. Neither will really win an event for you unless you are already world class. As always, tire performance is more about matters like inflation pressure than about what's getting inflated.

[aramis]

Thanks for all the information so far.

I just started riding/racing at the track at the end of last years season and was happy to eek out some points in cat4 races so I'm not that worried about equipment, but it's always interesting to read and think about. I raced on a steel bike with box section wheels and clinchers and it was fine.

An interesting thing is I have my rear clincher go flat (mystery hole in latex tube) during a training session and just pulled off, no big deal. During a race it could have been a big deal though.

I have seen one flat during the omnium races (1/2/3's) and I think it was a tubular but the guy just pulled off without incident.

One thing I was reading was that the glue can really effect rolling resistance. Maybe the high level teams can spend more money/time to get the right glue and get it glued properly, but for a regular guy it's harder. Like the poster was describing above me, if pro teams have problems with rolled tires, I don't want to have to worry about that too. Clinchers are less of a headache especially just for wednesday fun races.

Also 11.4, thanks for the advice on tire pressures. I was running maybe 110 psi on my 23mm schwalbe ultremos last year and I guess that might have been too low (i'm 165 pounds).

And Look585 I might shoot you off some questions. Honestly I have way more questions about training and racing tactics (omnium) than equipment though!