Tire Width: Observations on 25c+

[dbrk]

I've been eyeballing tires these past few days, mounting and dismounting, trying to see what fits under a Reynolds Ouzo. I should use calipers next time (they are at the shop) but here are few prelims, not much of which should surprise...so, yawn...apologies for the obvious.

*Continental 28c Gatorskins are not as wide as Michelin 25c Pro Race Lites.
*Conti 28c 2000 (kevlar folders, my favorite cheap "race" tire) are wider than Gatorskins, not as wide as Michelin 25s.
*Rivendell 27c RolyPolys are wider than both the Contis and Michelins.
*Conti 25c GP3000s are 23s. 23s are really skinny. My Pegorettis currently in stable will not allow more than a Conti 25c in the rear for the brake bridge clearance.
*Avocet 28c FastGrip DuraK are true 28s, wider than the Rivs, perhaps the perfect size for me. Will not fit under the Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork.
*All the other tires I have marked 25c are nowhere near 25c. The Michelin Pro Race 25c has got to be the lightest, most appealing clincher out there and appears to fit under every modern carbon fork I have (too many to list). The problem arises in the rear either with the brake bridge or the seat tube (frt der. clamp).
*Dugast sew-ups blow all of these away, by a long shot. Too expensive but for once in a way...

How I wish and wish and wish there were more carbon fork options for standard reach calipers and more "race" bikes built with greater versatility so that riders would have more tire options. NOTHING effects the ride more than tires, once the bike is reasonably well-designed.

dbrk

p.s. "650B is the future..." ---Dr. Emmit Brown, apocyrphal citation

[scrooge]

Thanks for the info..
I just ordered some Mich Pro Racece in 25c. Do I need to be concerned about using a a tube that is marked for 18-25c?

[Smiley]

FYI the F3 fork will handle a Roly Poly with ease as stated by a fellow forumite that has mounted these tires on said fork. This in response to a query of mine on this subject.

[93legendti]

Thanks dbrk. Just curious, do you use 27c (or larger) tires when you are doing rides that are 100% on paved roads?

[dbrk]

FYI the F3 fork will handle a Roly Poly with ease as stated by a fellow forumite that has mounted these tires on said fork. This in response to a query of mine on this subject.

This is great information. Also, the Reynolds Ouzo Pro will fit the Mich 25c Pro Race too but I wouldn't call the clearance great and some might, just might, think it not quite safe enough. Safe enough for me but that's like asking E. Kenevil if firing himself across the Grand Canyon is do-able...

dbr[eckless?]k

[Ray]

I'd just add that even Michelin 23s are wider than most 25s and, while perhaps a bit too skinny for Douglas's taste, are a good clincher option for those who have been riding other 23s and find them too hard/skinny but don't want to go the TWO steps up in size to a Michelin 25. I'd also add that while Michelin 25s are skinnier than Roly Poly / Ruffy Tuffys, it aren't by much. Perhaps a whisker, perhaps two. And they feel a good bit lighter and snappier to me, although they're not near as tough.

And no, Scrooge, I use 18-25 tubes in everything up to about 27. Only in the 32s I sometimes stick on the cross bike do I go with anything bigger. Although if they're the superlight 18-25s, you may need to top them off pretty frequently.

-Ray

[Too Tall]

Can we assume all measures are using a Mavic Open Pro rim?
Secondly, all that mounting and dismouting...any chaffing?

[93legendti]

This is great information. Also, the Reynolds Ouzo Pro will fit the Mich 25c Pro Race too but I wouldn't call the clearance great and some might, just might, think it not quite safe enough. Safe enough for me but that's like asking E. Kenevil if firing himself across the Grand Canyon is do-able...

dbr[eckless?]k

Not only that, but the F3 (6.5) that came on my Ottrott ST is the sweetest fork I have riden yet. Without using the usual adjectives, it feels like an extension of the bike, rather than a seperate piece. It doesn't suck that it feels as light as a Sub Q!

[cs124]

What about the height, or aspect ratio?

I've found that Continental tyres, while being on the slimmer side of their stated measurements are among the tallest.

I have one (stupidly designed) bike with a CF wishbone rear triangle that will *just* fit Bontrager Racelite 25s, which are kind of squat & fat in shape, but Conti GP3000 23s rub on the underside of the wishbone.

Not sure how this affects the ride of a tyre but it sure as hell affects the way it fits in a "modern" frame.

[scrooge]

I'd just add that even Michelin 23s are wider than most 25s and, while perhaps a bit too skinny for Douglas's taste, are a good clincher option for those who have been riding other 23s and find them too hard/skinny but don't want to go the TWO steps up in size to a Michelin 25. I'd also add that while Michelin 25s are skinnier than Roly Poly / Ruffy Tuffys, it aren't by much. Perhaps a whisker, perhaps two. And they feel a good bit lighter and snappier to me, although they're not near as tough.

And no, Scrooge, I use 18-25 tubes in everything up to about 27. Only in the 32s I sometimes stick on the cross bike do I go with anything bigger. Although if they're the superlight 18-25s, you may need to top them off pretty frequently.

-Ray

Thanks--I've been wondering about this first part--I've been riding Conti 25s and have been getting a lot of pinch flats (I think that's what they're from-maybe its just because contis are crappy tires) but the paranoid part of me doesn't want to go all the way to a Mich 25. I wonder just how noticeable the difference will be...
I guess I'll use them and enjoy them on our lousy Michigan roads and go down to the 23s if I don't like them...

[dbrk]

Can we assume all measures are using a Mavic Open Pro rim?
Secondly, all that mounting and dismouting...any chaffing?

Yes, Open Pro rims in every case.

Yes, too to 93Legendti: I do ride at least Mich PR25c on smooth roads. Folks like Kevan, manet, DK, FierteTi, ThomByrnes, and others can attest that the county roads in the Finger Lakes are generally in excellent shape pavement-wise. Things are sketchy on the shoulders in early spring but we have wide, accommodating road shoulders (for snow plowing, I think) and you can avoid the real nasties. Still, I find mysef at no disadvantage riding a wider tire. When I go for the fast "training" ride with my best pal's racer son (and he is fast and accomplished), the only advantage I give myself is a bike without fenders. Last year he was zooming on his Fuji (team issued) and me on the Kirk Terraplane (with Riv RPs/Paul Centerpulls) and I was just fine. I'm not winning any sprints and he's not beating me up, that is also true. As much as I love the Pegorettis, they are fair weather and smooooth pavement bikes because of the clearances. My incoming Pegoretti will have some more room for tires, Dario promised.

Ray too above has it nailed, I think. I'm about to get some more Avocet 28s for the steel forked bikes.

dbrk

[flydhest]

Michelin 25s are great for riding. I am still enamored of Veloflex Paves for clinchers, but they are decidedly narrower. If I must ride clinchers, I prefer Michelin 25s (nice, cushy, fast) or the Veloflex (ride as close to a tubie as a clincher gets).

Douglas, you must realize that my CSi can handle 28s with aplomb. A testament to your oft-stated view that race bikes can be built with versatility included. A true race bike, yet one that I may well bring to the Finger Lakes Ramble with some 28s.

[Sandy]

Is there anything about a bicycle that you don't know?


Wide Body Sandy

[Sandy]

Yes the Veloflex Pave, which are 700x22, as you know, give a wonderful ride, but they have a very thin tread and cut easily. I decided it was not worth the risk riding with such thin (tread and width) tires. I decided that after reading posts on the forum about blowouts in front tires.


Sandy

[flydhest]

Sandy,

I don't know of anyone who's had a tire failure from a Veloflex. I also think that cuts in the tire are more of a perceived than real problem. Michelins, especially the ones from back when I was racing in the '90s, would cut all the time, but I didn't have problems with flats.

That said, wider tires are great in so many ways and I have been an advocate (to you among others) for their use for years. I haven't measured the Veloflexes, however, and don't know how big it is. It says 22, but then Contis and Michelins that say 23 aren't the same size.

[93legendti]

Sandy,

I don't know of anyone who's had a tire failure from a Veloflex. I also think that cuts in the tire are more of a perceived than real problem. Michelins, especially the ones from back when I was racing in the '90s, would cut all the time, but I didn't have problems with flats.

That said, wider tires are great in so many ways and I have been an advocate (to you among others) for their use for years. I haven't measured the Veloflexes, however, and don't know how big it is. It says 22, but then Contis and Michelins that say 23 aren't the same size.

I have ridden Veloflex for 2 years. The only "failure" I had was when a wrong way driver in a supermarket parking lot forced me to my left and into a large pot hole--the side of the pot hole cut the side wall of my Pave and that was that. I'm pretty sure this would have flatted and torn the side wall of Contis as well, so I am a very satisfied user. Funny thing was, not 30 minutes before, I had just gotten thru telling a riding buddy that I had never had a flat on Veloflex tires!

[Sandy]

I knew a guy, who unfortuantely is no longer with us, who put 18 of those Veloflex Pave tires on his big rig. He had blowouts in 12 of them simultaneously, flew off of a cliff, and it took days to find him. He was buried just last week with his eighteen wheeler and the remaining 6 tires. Needless to say, it was a very large coffin, and dirtdigger wished that he had charged by the hour and not the job.

I gave the euology for the tires. I don't remember who gave it for my friend.


Still grieving,


Simple Sandy

[zap]

Sandy,

I don't know of anyone who's had a tire failure from a Veloflex. I also think that cuts in the tire are more of a perceived than real problem. Michelins, especially the ones from back when I was racing in the '90s, would cut all the time, but I didn't have problems with flats.

That said, wider tires are great in so many ways and I have been an advocate (to you among others) for their use for years. I haven't measured the Veloflexes, however, and don't know how big it is. It says 22, but then Contis and Michelins that say 23 aren't the same size.


Me, within the first 15 miles. Small little flint that Conti would have chucked let all the air out of the Pave.

But I was still able to determine that Veloflex Pave's are not to my liking. Pumped to 120psi I found them to be too soft.

Anyhow, I'm still puzzled over this whole wide tire thingy that some have mounted to fancy racing wheels that are in turn installed on fancy road racing bikes being ridden on what I consider fairly smooth roads.

What's next, suspension for road racing bikes. Ohhhhhh, never mind.............

[dirtdigger88]

zap-

this is how I see the whole wide tire thing-

27c tires are not that much bigger than 23s- but I prefer the ride of a 27c at 90 psi to a 23c at 120-

problem is that with my weight and riding style I cant run 23s lower than about 110 psi or so - any lower and I WILL pinch flat- and no not on flat roads - but when I hit a pot hole or a curb- or a dog or something

a 27c tire at 90 psi doesnt feel like a 23c at 90 psi- there is no comparison

I also like the look of slightly fatter tires-

So for me - there is no down side to 27c tires-

By the way- I just mounted up some Rolly Pollys on my kirk last night- just to the fingers - they feel more supple than the Ruffy Tuffys- but I have not had time to ride them-

Jason

[flydhest]

Me, within the first 15 miles. Small little flint that Conti would have chucked let all the air out of the Pave.

But I was still able to determine that Veloflex Pave's are not to my liking. Pumped to 120psi I found them to be too soft.

Anyhow, I'm still puzzled over this whole wide tire thingy that some have mounted to fancy racing wheels that are in turn installed on fancy road racing bikes being ridden on what I consider fairly smooth roads.

What's next, suspension for road racing bikes. Ohhhhhh, never mind.............

Wow, never had that problem with Veloflexes.

For me, different tires and wheels are like different bikes:
25s on the fixed gear, lots of urban riding and crap roads
25s on the steel bike--Cooler weather (read: slower speed) fun riding and coffee run
22 tubulars on the Ti bike--doing what I call fast riding, but is in reality kinda slow.

[Johny]

Anyhow, I'm still puzzled over this whole wide tire thingy that some have mounted to fancy racing wheels that are in turn installed on fancy road racing bikes being ridden on what I consider fairly smooth roads.


What???!!! You mean we ride fancy RACING bikes with fancy RACING wheels, and yet are NOT racing? :)

What's next, suspension for road racing bikes. Ohhhhhh, never mind.............

I think Smiley has one...

[palincss]

Thanks--I've been wondering about this first part--I've been riding Conti 25s and have been getting a lot of pinch flats (I think that's what they're from-maybe its just because contis are crappy tires) but the paranoid part of me doesn't want to go all the way to a Mich 25. I wonder just how noticeable the difference will be...
I guess I'll use them and enjoy them on our lousy Michigan roads and go down to the 23s if I don't like them...

Pinch flats haven't got much if anything to do with the "crappiness" of a tire. It's all about pressure and impact: you get a snakebite when the tire compresses all the way on a bump and mashes the tube against the rim. You can prevent it with more pressure, or a wider tire that holds more air. (Or, of course, you can avoid those bumps, or unweight the bike as you hit them.)

[djg]

[QUOTE=dbrk]
*Dugast sew-ups blow all of these away, by a long shot. Too expensive but for once in a way...


dbrk

If you think the Dugasts blow the alternatives away, but at too high a price, have you tried any, or many, of the less expensive medium-wide tubbies on the current market?

I think that the Veloflex Roubaix is a great tire in a 24 width, for example, although you may prefer a wider tire still. I've got a pair of Vittoria Evo Pave tires stretching, but haven't yet tried them, and I'm curious about the Challenge Paris Roubaix 27 tire. And, obviously, Conti makes the competition in a 25. I realize that none of these is inexpensive, but they're can all be had much cheaper than the current Dugast tires and I'm wondering if you have thoughts about them.

[scrooge]

Pinch flats haven't got much if anything to do with the "crappiness" of a tire. It's all about pressure and impact: you get a snakebite when the tire compresses all the way on a bump and mashes the tube against the rim. You can prevent it with more pressure, or a wider tire that holds more air. (Or, of course, you can avoid those bumps, or unweight the bike as you hit them.)

I realize that--I was trying to give conti the benefit of the doubt. I ride 25c right now at about 110 psi and still get flats all the time--and not because I'm hitting major bumps. After going through 3 sets of conties last season, I'm starting to think that they just suck. Just my opinion. We'll see if anything changes when I try the 25c Michelins

[William]

I knew a guy, who unfortuantely is no longer with us, who put 18 of those Veloflex Pave tires on his big rig. He had blowouts in 12 of them simultaneously, flew off of a cliff, and it took days to find him. He was buried just last week with his eighteen wheeler and the remaining 6 tires. Needless to say, it was a very large coffin, and dirtdigger wished that he had charged by the hour and not the job.

I gave the euology for the tires. I don't remember who gave it for my friend.


Still grieving,


Simple Sandy

Was it on the even side or the odd side???


William ;)

[palincss]

I realize that--I was trying to give conti the benefit of the doubt. I ride 25c right now at about 110 psi and still get flats all the time--and not because I'm hitting major bumps. After going through 3 sets of conties last season, I'm starting to think that they just suck. Just my opinion. We'll see if anything changes when I try the 25c Michelins

Your weight factors in, too, as just sitting on the bike you are compressing the tire & taking up some of that room between the tire and the inside of the rim. If the Michelins are significantly wider than the Contis (even though they're both marked "25mm") then you'll need significantly less pressure with the Michelins - and they'll ride better as well.

Don't forget the "unweight the bike" factor either. I saw my daughter one time - maybe 105 lb. max at the time - ride a 700x28 into a small pothole & flat a tire. She knew nothing at all about unweighting, just rode it right in, sitting on the saddle. I hit the same hole with something like 40lb in panniers and me around 200lb at the time, and I didn't flat, because I unweighted the bike as it went in.

By all means, try the Michelins. I've used them with success for a long time, and lots of people here love them. There are many people who have strong dislikes for Continental tires, and there must be some reason for it.