OT - Backcountry Ski equip advice for NY/VT

[TomNY]

I'm experienced - advanced Alpine, and Nordic ski on local trails and Golf courses. Recently joined ski club w lodge near Killington. I have Nordic skinny skis, but also keen to do more backcountry stuff. Any advice on where to go and what equipment I may need would be appreciated. I joined the Catamount Trail Association btw. My Alpine skiing GF wants to try Nordic, etc.

Thanks ahead of time for info.

[Mr. Pink]

Go here: http://nyskiblog.com and ask around in the forums. I know there is an association (small) that shares ideas about skiing the Adirondack slides. Maybe google that. I think somebody published a book on the subject.

Tough subject, though. Northeast trees are awfully tight, if not cleared at all. I only ski trees within ski areas. Killington trees are pretty good, btw. Good luck.

[merckx]

Can you better define backcountry? I know folks who classify BC as snowmobile trail skiing, golf course skiing, woods clomping around skiing, open fields 1 foot deep skiing etc.

My preference is for a traditional, 60mm shovel, non-metal ski for ungroomed fields and wooded trails. Metal is good for snowmobile trails that get icy from freeze/melt cycles, but metal doesn't make it less slippery, just more edge for turning/stopping. You don't need metal for anything that is not hard-packed. I also like to keep my boots on the light side. If you ski in DEEP snow, the BC boot and binding system is necessary because you will have more leverage at the toe. Enjoy your skiing.

[TomNY]

Can you better define backcountry? I know folks who classify BC as snowmobile trail skiing, golf course skiing, woods clomping around skiing, open fields 1 foot deep skiing etc.

My preference is for a traditional, 60mm shovel, non-metal ski for ungroomed fields and wooded trails. Metal is good for snowmobile trails that get icy from freeze/melt cycles, but metal doesn't make it less slippery, just more edge for turning/stopping. You don't need metal for anything that is not hard-packed. I also like to keep my boots on the light side. If you ski in DEEP snow, the BC boot and binding system is necessary because you will have more leverage at the toe. Enjoy your skiing.

I assume when you say metal you're referring to edges. I have lots of experience w "snowmobile trail skiing, golf course skiing, woods clomping around skiing, open fields 1 foot deep skiing etc". I don't have any metal edged skis. I worked in a bunch of "city" ski shops where I developed a collection and experience w touring skis. I have ankle high Alpina boots for NNN Rottefella bindings....

[merlinmurph]

Welcome to Killington. Though I don't get into backcountry, I'm up most weekends in the winter. You probably already know about these places, but....

For local info, there are two places.
Base Camp Outfitters - Rte 4 at the base of the access road. Talk to Mike, great guy.

Mountain Travelers - on rte 4 in Rutland. Pete has been around as long as I can remember, since at least the 80's. Extremely knowledgeable and good guy.

I know people go to the top and go off the backside of Killington. The guys above can fill you in on all the local spots.

What house/club are you in?

Enjoy,
Murph

[TomNY]

Welcome to Killington. Though I don't get into backcountry, I'm up most weekends in the winter. You probably already know about these places, but....

For local info, there are two places.
Base Camp Outfitters - Rte 4 at the base of the access road. Talk to Mike, great guy.

Mountain Travelers - on rte 4 in Rutland. Pete has been around as long as I can remember, since at least the 80's. Extremely knowledgeable and good guy.

I know people go to the top and go off the backside of Killington. The guys above can fill you in on all the local spots.

What house/club are you in?

Enjoy,
Murph

High Life Ski Club in Chittenden. I'm new to club, last weekend was great. I'm headed up tonight for the weekend. I want to use my XC for exploring but also willing to go for equipment that allows me to access CTA or other trails. GF is strong Alpine skier and runner, completely new XC. Any thoughts on where to start near the lodge? Rent her stuff for intial outings on groomed trails?

[tele]

Welcome to Killington. Though I don't get into backcountry, I'm up most weekends in the winter. You probably already know about these places, but....

For local info, there are two places.
Base Camp Outfitters - Rte 4 at the base of the access road. Talk to Mike, great guy.

Mountain Travelers - on rte 4 in Rutland. Pete has been around as long as I can remember, since at least the 80's. Extremely knowledgeable and good guy.

I know people go to the top and go off the backside of Killington. The guys above can fill you in on all the local spots.

What house/club are you in?

Enjoy,
Murph

Great shops: I have more personal experience with Mountain Travelers, specifically about 10 years ago, got my tele boots there and very knowledgeable and great service.

[merlinmurph]

High Life Ski Club in Chittenden. I'm new to club, last weekend was great. I'm headed up tonight for the weekend. I want to use my XC for exploring but also willing to go for equipment that allows me to access CTA or other trails. GF is strong Alpine skier and runner, completely new XC. Any thoughts on where to start near the lodge? Rent her stuff for intial outings on groomed trails?

I know about High Life, in fact, I think I've driven by the lodge on the way to the reservoir??? Maybe?

The Mountain Top Inn right in Chittenden has nice trails and lots of climbing. I think the Catamount Trail goes right thru there. Base Camp also has XC trails. Not sure what shape the XC trails would be in this time of year, though the storm last week improved skiing a ton. Last weekend was great.

Definitely rent at first. It's cheap and she can figure out what she wants. Skating? Classic?

Sorry, I misunderstood you at first. I assumed "backcountry" meant you were interested in either tele or AT gear. Mike's wife at BCO is a mad dog XC skier.

[moose8]

Buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Backcountry-Skiing-Adventures-Vermont-Snowboard/dp/1878239708

A lot of the trails are pretty x-countryish more than what I think of as backcountry of the downhill variety. Lots of good places to explore.

Or this book which is a little broader but apparently still in print: http://www.amazon.com/Best-Backcountry-Skiing-Northeast-Classic/dp/1934028142/ref=asap_B001HD3LV4?ie=UTF8

I have them both and they are mostly overlapping anyway.

[alessandro]

Buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Backcountry-Skiing-Adventures-Vermont-Snowboard/dp/1878239708

A lot of the trails are pretty x-countryish more than what I think of as backcountry of the downhill variety. Lots of good places to explore.

Or this book which is a little broader but apparently still in print: http://www.amazon.com/Best-Backcountry-Skiing-Northeast-Classic/dp/1934028142/ref=asap_B001HD3LV4?ie=UTF8

I have them both and they are mostly overlapping anyway.

The second linked title is the one to get--Best Backcountry Skiing in the Northeast: 50 Classic Ski Tours In New England And New York, published in 2010. The author David Goodman first published a Classic Backcountry Skiing: A Guide to the Best Ski Tours in New England in 1989, then revised it with a Maine/NH book in 1998, a VT/NY book 2001, and then recombined them again with sort-of 4th edition in 2010.

Goodman has a range of tours for a range of skiing styles and levels of ability: Some of them don't require much more than skinny nordic skis on rolling terrain; some of them involve making turns downhill without being too intense; and some of them are full-on backcountry tours that involve require avalanche skills and proficiency in descending steep ravines, like the Great Gulf or King Ravine on Mt. Washington.

But yes, they're excellent books.

[Mr. Pink]

There's always Tuckermans. The only place besides the back of Stowe people die in avalanches in the east.

[alessandro]

Tom, what does backcountry skiing mean to you? Do you want to make turns while skiing down slopes that are outside of ski areas, or do you want ski rolling terrain, with some turns and some flat terrain that requires the kick and glide of classic-style nordic skiing?

If you're after turns in fresh powder, away from the frenzied hordes at the resorts, you should look at alpine touring or telemark gear, with climbing skins for the ascent. More about AT setups here: http://www.backcountry.com/explore/essentials-of-ski-touring

If you're interested in exploring away from trails on rolling terrain, but without descending steep slopes, I recommend a wider waxless ski with fishscales and metal edges. I have the Madshus Annum (formerly the Karhu Guide, look for 'em used), dimensions are 109-78-95 mm. You could go less wide for better kick-and-glide, but for me personally I'd rather go fat.

I'd at least get skis with metal edges. Bindings and boots are interdependent. For boots, I would choose the stiffest, most supportive ones, but YMMV. Bindings: Look at NNN-BC vs. 3-pin, like the Rottefella Super Telemark or the Voile 3-pin with cable.

You could ski just about anywhere with your current setup; the question is how much fun will it be, will they give you the experience you're looking for?
The issue with the NNN binding is that it's narrow, for reg'lar nordic skiing; the boots don't give you much ankle support for turns; and skinny skis won't float on deep snow. On the other hand, the Madshus Annum is too wide to fit into the track on a groomed XC ski trail, but I don't care--that's not what I'm interested in.

I have:
-skinny skis w/no metal edges and leather boots for skiing on the golf course after work
-an alpine setup for when I want to ride the lifts
-an alpine touring setup for skinning up and making turns on the way down, either at closed ski resorts, or somewhere in the woods (I use my alpine boots in Fritschi bindings, which is less than ideal but also less expensive)
-the Madshus Annum, with metal edges; Voile telemark bindings; and two-buckle plastic boots (Garmont/Scott Excursion). The boots are stiffer and more supportive for making turns than a leather boot, but lighter than a 3- or 4-buckle telemark boot. I sometimes use climbing skins with these skis.

[alessandro]

There's always Tuckermans. The only place besides the back of Stowe people die in avalanches in the east.

Not true. There's plenty of other terrain prone to sliding in the east.

Rare Avalanche Kills One On an Adirondack Slope
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/21/nyregion/rare-avalanche-kills-one-on-an-adirondack-slope.html

[christian]

I have the Madshus Annum (formerly the Karhu Guide, look for 'em used), dimensions are 109-78-95 mm. You could go less wide for better kick-and-glide, but for me personally I'd rather go fat.
Can you turn these with NNN-BC boots? I'm interested in upgrading my XCD-GTs, and these would be a great fit, but I assumed I'd have to get a burlier NN75 boot, like an 875.

[Mr. Pink]

Not true. There's plenty of other terrain prone to sliding in the east.

Rare Avalanche Kills One On an Adirondack Slope
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/21/nyregion/rare-avalanche-kills-one-on-an-adirondack-slope.html

Well, touche. The slides are really dangerous. They are, after all, created by slides.

[alessandro]

Can you turn these with NNN-BC boots? I'm interested in upgrading my XCD-GTs, and these would be a great fit, but I assumed I'd have to get a burlier NN75 boot, like an 875.

I'm sure that with your skills, you could turn anything ;)

The XCD-GT is now the Madshus Eon.

Seriously, the answer is: Probably. But I would size the boot (and binding) to the ski: Just as you'd need a stiff 4-buckle boot to drive a fat ski, and a low, lightweight boot for narrow skis, I would go burlier for the Annum.

In the end, though, I think it's about technique and confidence. You could ride DH at Whistler on a cross bike, but you'd probably have more fun on a full-squish machine.

[merckx]

Yes, I was referring to metal edges. Not a fan of them. They add weight and cost. It sounds like you already have a quiver of skis. Why don't you just ski what you have and then reevaluate once you have a feel for the terrain and snow? Speaking of snow, where is it in the northeast? I'm becoming impatient............

[TomNY]

I want to get to AT BC in time. No desire to stand in lines


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[djg21]

Tom, what does backcountry skiing mean to you? Do you want to make turns while skiing down slopes that are outside of ski areas, or do you want ski rolling terrain, with some turns and some flat terrain that requires the kick and glide of classic-style nordic skiing?


I was going to post something similar.

By backcountry, my first thought is skinning up to make turns on the way down. For this, I don't mind the weight of heavier, relatively fat-waisted telemark skis with active bindings and good telemark boots. I'm not out to break land-speed records on the skin up. I use Scarpa T2s which are light enough to climb in and plenty stiff enough for resort skiing too. There are a lot of good skis available. For bindings, I like http://www.twentytwodesigns.com/. I still use older Hammerheads, which are no longer in production, but still can be picked up if you look around.

There are relatively few shops around that sell telemark equipment these days. There is Inside Edge in Glens Falls if you want to buy locally, and a few shops in the Waitsfield area. Alternatively, there is Backcountry.com.

For used stuff, maybe look at http://www.telemarktalk.com/

One thing you might want to do if you decide to pursue telemark is sign up for a weekend clinic with http://www.telemarknato.com/. NATO is based out of Mad River. After a weekend clinic, you will be free-heel skiing very competently given that you are coming from an alpine background, and you will have a great time learning!

The other thing you might want to do is buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Allen-Really-Telemark-Revised-Better/dp/076274586X

If you want to drop me a PM, I may have some used gear available. I just had a TKR last year, and my skiing is going to be somewhat limited this season.

My wife has some extra gear to part with too, including a pair of unused Garmin Excursions and some lighter duty Fischer BC (metal edges) skis.

[pitonpat]

My best friend of 40 years lives in Chittenden, VT. I drive past the High Life club all year long. I cut my teeth on Nordic skiing up at the Mountain Top Inn back in the early 70's- even got college credit for phys ed by skiing up there with the Nordic staff. I've skiied backcountry using the earliest version of Karhu XCD-GT skis with 3-pin bindings & leather Asolo boots. They are great for skiing rolling wooded terrain with no prepared track...awesome for skiing around the reservoir in Chittenden. For skiing the glades and maybe the Adirondacks and Long Trail I now use the Karhu Guides (replaced now by the Madshus Annum as mentioned earlier), Voile Switchback full pivot bindings, and Scarpa T-3 plastic boots....way more control than the xcd-gt's. Also use heel lifts on the bindings and Black Diamond skins for the steep uphills- it's like having 4wheel drive.

I'll echo the recommendation to stop in to see Peter K at Mountain Travelers in Rutland. He knows what's up.

[tele]

For used stuff, maybe look at http://www.telemarktalk.com/

One thing you might want to do if you decide to pursue telemark is sign up for a weekend clinic with http://www.telemarknato.com/. NATO is based out of Mad River. After a weekend clinic, you will be free-heel skiing very competently given that you are coming from an alpine background, and you will have a great time learning!

telemarktips is sadly no longer around, there is http://telemarkeast.com/ though.

telemarknato is a great way to get into the sport, either alpine or backcountry! Dickie Hall is a blast and worth any event that is put on.

[djg21]

telemarktips is sadly no longer around, there is http://telemarkeast.com/ though.

telemarknato is a great way to get into the sport, either alpine or backcountry! Dickie Hall is a blast and worth any event that is put on.

I thought that TTips was gone too, but someone apparently got Tim's approval to carry on in the past year or so, and there are now new posts that are as recent as today!

I've done a bunch of Dickie's clinics over the years and I've never left feeling like I hadn't learned something new. This is money well spent. Take a long weekend and do one at Mad River or Jay Peak and you will not regret it!

[moose8]

The other thing you might want to do is buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Allen-Really-Telemark-Revised-Better/dp/076274586X


All the books from the Allen & mikes series are really, really good in my opinion. Tons of practical advice that can take years to learn otherwise.

Sounds like there are a lot of people here who like east coast backcountry skiing. If you do, go up to my Katahdin in Maine. I've skied it a bunch of times and it's the wildest winter experience I've found on the east coast. And it's beautiful.

[djg21]

All the books from the Allen & mikes series are really, really good in my opinion. Tons of practical advice that can take years to learn otherwise.

Sounds like there are a lot of people here who like east coast backcountry skiing. If you do, go up to my Katahdin in Maine. I've skied it a bunch of times and it's the wildest winter experience I've found on the east coast. And it's beautiful.

Katadhin, black flies (Maine's State Bird), and a really awful bar called the Blue Goose that served Rolling Rock and pickled eggs are about the only things I rememeber of the couple years I lived in Maine while in college. And I got pretty decent at cribbage!

I alway wanted to ski Katadhin while I was there, but never made it.

[merlinmurph]

Katadhin, black flies (Maine's State Bird), and a really awful bar called the Blue Goose that served Rolling Rock and pickled eggs are about the only things I rememeber of the couple years I lived in Maine while in college. And I got pretty decent at cribbage!

I alway wanted to ski Katadhin while I was there, but never made it.


Ahhh, a Batesie. I went to school just north of you and we also had our share of dive bars. Also minored in cribbage.

Didn't get to hike Katahdin 'til about 10 years after I graduated. Coolest peak in the east, by far.

[djg21]

Ahhh, a Batesie. I went to school just north of you and we also had our share of dive bars. Also minored in cribbage.

Didn't get to hike Katahdin 'til about 10 years after I graduated. Coolest peak in the east, by far.

I was in Lewiston for a little bit, and then finished my undergrad in VT.

[moose8]

Some thread drift, but everybody likes pictures of east coast backcountry skiing, right?http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/19/64b431bc5a49908859ab03b810f4e2d6.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/19/1444ad5ae73dbda908afb1a3b3fdb68c.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/19/2eb11c952fe20b8700f14d813973290c.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/19/635e8904f8484785db168977ac62aa27.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/19/fd7663b9131fa354d3e7b853e739fcde.jpg

[CNY rider]

Yes, I was referring to metal edges. Not a fan of them. They add weight and cost. It sounds like you already have a quiver of skis. Why don't you just ski what you have and then reevaluate once you have a feel for the terrain and snow? Speaking of snow, where is it in the northeast? I'm becoming impatient............

There's tons of snow in upstate NY, northern Vermont.
We skiied 3 days last weekend.
Next week looks like an ugly warm rainstorm though.

[alessandro]

Some thread drift, but everybody likes pictures of east coast backcountry skiing, right?

Great pics of Ka-Todd-In! http://forums.thepaceline.net/images/icons/icon14.gif

[alessandro]

Yes, I was referring to metal edges. Not a fan of them. They add weight and cost.

There are eight million ways to ski. Whatever floats your boat. There are people who think that cycling technology achieved perfection with DA 7400. Who's to say they're wrong?

The Ski-To-Die Club conquered the Adirondacks on wooden skis.
The folks at White Grass Ski Touring Center sure seem to know how to turn on skis w/out metal edges:
http://youtu.be/Ip9O16cwAwM

I am a big fan of metal edges. In Vermont, you can encounter powder, ice, crud, and corn snow, sometimes all in one day.

It sounds like you already have a quiver of skis. Why don't you just ski what you have and then reevaluate once you have a feel for the terrain and snow?

That is great advice.