Clothing question - hardshell vs. softshell

[berserk87]

Hi folks -

I have seen cycling outerwear from several manufacturers (Pearl Izumi, Rapha, i.e.) that have a "hardshell" or "softshell" label in the item name. An example would be "Rapha Hardshell Jacket".

Is there something to this besides marketing nomenclature? If this is an industry standard, then what is the difference between the two? I understand the difference when talking about turtles, but fabric? Not a clue.

Thanks -

[FlashUNC]

In my experience it mostly comes down to water permeability and breathability.

Hardshells don't breathe as well, but are waterproof or more highly water resistant than softshells.

[charliedid]

Think of hardshells as rain jackets, no insulation...softshells, as windproof slightly insulated (this varies) and water resistant.

Make sense?

[Ken Robb]

In my experience it mostly comes down to water permeability and breathability.

Hardshells don't breathe as well, but are waterproof or more highly water resistant than softshells.

Sounds correct to me. I like a hardshell vest or jacket and a soft/insulating layer to handle changing conditions.

[vqdriver]

head down to an rei and check out hardshells vs softshells and the difference is obvious. it's old hat to backpackers. fwiw, i wouldn't assume level of water permeability with either.

[berserk87]

Think of hardshells as rain jackets, no insulation...softshells, as windproof slightly insulated (this varies) and water resistant.

Make sense?

Yes - that helps. Thanks.

I was just at REI a couple of weeks ago looking at liner gloves. Wish I had this question in my noggin when I visited - I would have looked around as suggested.

[pdmtong]

originally everything was hardshell...like the comment, think rainshell

when "soft" shells were introduced, people loved them since the outer fabric could be bonded to a fleecy interior, so warmer, no noise, more breathable and water resistant enough for most non-rain applications.

a hard shell will be a better barrier, you just need to evaluate if the conditions warrant this capability

[rain dogs]

Hardshell jackets are typically layered or laminate construction garments with an DWR treated outer nylon or poly bonded to an 2nd inner waterproof EPTFE membrane layer (think gore) and then with a 3rd lining or bonded layer.

Hardshell are typically extremely waterproof, don't stretch, and very limited breathability. Like your general use mountaineering jacket/90's yellow gore cycling jacket

Softshell are typically textiles made of stretch nylon/poly layers that don't often have a waterproof membrane layer (but may have a wind layer). The redeeming quality is that it is usually a stretch garment with good water resistance (but not waterproof), better breathability than a hardshell and a more comfortable piece. Usually it can be used more fitted, and cut more aggressively, because of the stretch.

For 95% of use, no one needs a hardshell. But for the 5% they are quite valuable.

[RFC]

nt

[buldogge]

Check out Polartec NeoShell… It's either the best, or the worst, of both worlds!

-Mark in St. Louis

[Dead Man]

Check out Polartec NeoShell… It's either the best, or the worst, of both worlds!

-Mark in St. Louis

Neo is absolutely fantastic, used right. It's not a completely waterproof membrane- stand around in a hard rain, water will eventually soak through. Hydraulic pressure and time. But that's not what it's for, so that's not what it should be used for.

Cycling is a great application for Neo's stretch and breathability. You're going to get absolutely soaked riding in the rain either way- either by your own sweat under a jacket, or by the rain, or by a combination. What you need is wind protection and heat exchange- Neo does both those, AND keeps out probably 97% of the rain even in that setting.

I love Neo. I wear it on the bike, and in the mountains. If waterproofness is the main concern, and exertion isn't high, Gore is still the least air-permeable and most waterproof option out there.

[Mark McM]

Hardshell jackets are typically layered or laminate construction garments with an DWR treated outer nylon or poly bonded to an 2nd inner waterproof EPTFE membrane layer (think gore) and then with a 3rd lining or bonded layer.

Hardshell are typically extremely waterproof, don't stretch, and very limited breathability. Like your general use mountaineering jacket/90's yellow gore cycling jacket

Softshell are typically textiles made of stretch nylon/poly layers that don't often have a waterproof membrane layer (but may have a wind layer). The redeeming quality is that it is usually a stretch garment with good water resistance (but not waterproof), better breathability than a hardshell and a more comfortable piece. Usually it can be used more fitted, and cut more aggressively, because of the stretch.

For 95% of use, no one needs a hardshell. But for the 5% they are quite valuable.

The waterproofness of both hardshell and softsheel fabrics depends largely on the type and thickness of the waterproof membrane. A "hardshell" generally uses a woven fabric, which can be thinner and lighter, but is stiffer and does not stretch. A "softshell" generally uses a woven fabric, which is often thicker and heavier, but allows some give and stretch. Hardshell fabrics can generally be made more waterproof, because their lack of stretch can protect the waterproofness of their membranes (waterproof membranes can be damaged or become more porous if stretched).

[Wakatel_Luum]

Not sure which is what but the two brands I always here as being the best are Showerpass and Castelli...

[jmeloy]

I know we have lots of thoughts on Rapha. I have a Hardshell I got as a gift last year (great wife). Wore it today for a ride in KC with a temp of 31 and N winds gusting up near 20. Polypropylene base and an icebreaker and I gotta say I was totally comfortable. Have an Assos Air Jack as well and find it great when it is ~35-45. Just great performing garments.

[rain dogs]

The waterproofness of both hardshell and softsheel fabrics depends largely on the type and thickness of the waterproof membrane. A "hardshell" generally uses a woven fabric, which can be thinner and lighter, but is stiffer and does not stretch. A "softshell" generally uses a woven fabric, which is often thicker and heavier, but allows some give and stretch. Hardshell fabrics can generally be made more waterproof, because their lack of stretch can protect the waterproofness of their membranes (waterproof membranes can be damaged or become more porous if stretched).

Most softshell jackets I've seen don't have a membrane, in fact, I've never seen a true softshell with a membrane, but I mostly ignore plastic textiles these days because the general crap-for-everythingness of them, cause they're plastic. Softshells get their water resistance from textile properties and reduced surface tension. Most softshells would use what many would call knit textiles.

We also probably shouldn't even be saying waterproof exists on a spectrum (although I kinda did) There is waterproof or not... the rest is water resistance. The only product I know that is waterproof is an EPTFE membrane, or a garbage bag.

[11.4]

Well, first of all everybody misuses both terms and that includes the manufacturers. But here's pretty much the range of construction techniques and you can figure out which you want.

A full-blown hard shell consists of an outer layer that has some waterproofness but has to be rather breathable and that lends the protection to the garment and the person inside. Next there's a sheet of a porous hydrophobic membrane such as Goretex or many other brands. This stuff is fragile and is laser tacked, usually to a calendared coating on the inside of the outer fabric. The more tacks, and the bigger the tacks, the more of the membrane that no longer acts like Goretex is supposed to. The trend is towards micro-tacks just like there's a trend to micro-seams, which is all to make the fabric both more breathable and also less board-like. With products like Gore-lite, there's nothing inside the Gore membrane, so it has to be tacked down pretty well and it will still wear or get contaminated with age. Lite products are really only to save a few grams, so I never really recommend them except for what basically become throwaway garments. The inside lining is typically tacked to the other two layers, which further reduces breathability, but a few manufacturers leave it as a loose lining.

For soft shells, the construction isn't too much different. An outer fabric, typically a knit rather than a woven as in hard shells, gets the same kind of hydrophobic membrane tacked to it. Then a special version of a fleece is blown into a matrix on the inside of the hydrophobic membrane. The Gore membrane is typically applied in waffles, which allow the other layers to stretch without tearing the Gore membrane right away, but the outer fabric does have an inside calendaring that is moderately water resistant and covers for the membrane when it tears. The membrane in soft shells took years to develop, especially the methods for applying it.

Now you also get all kinds of "soft" shells that we find in cycling clothing that are still made like hard shells, but using extremely soft fabrics. Jackets like the Arcteryx Alpha SV are the old school -- still board-like, weatherproof against an 80 mph gale, and you can climb all over rock walls for years before you wear a hole in them. eVent is a newer version with none of the durability, but we don't really need that to ride on a bike -- we're barely moving our upper body, after all. There are also better water-resistant coatings that are lower cost and easier to apply and that give 80% of the effect of a real Gore equivalent fabric. Really, in the end, pick something that fits because if a jacket doesn't fit, it does a horrible job of keeping you warm and dry.

On all of this I should point out what most here already know and anyone in the Northwest definitely knows: Goretex works when the air inside is warmer than the air outside, the humidity outside is low, the moisture you are getting rid of is vapor only, and the membrane itself is dry and clean. If you buy a piece of Goretex to wear in Seattle or Portland weather in the winter, it's really a waste. The hydrophobic membrane can't perform in those conditions. If you have ever worn a good heavy duty Goretex jacket like the Alpha SV at about 4000 meters, you notice that you never seem to perspire -- everything passes through and you are toasty and dry inside. Just stand on the street in downtown Seattle in the same jacket and you are damp, cold and have sweaty skin.

As to which to get? Hard shells tend to be noisier, tougher, less aerodynamic, and more expensive, though all these garments are improving rapidly. It's really your choice and what fits you.

[chasea]

A softshell is more breathable, giving up a little in waterproofing. If you don't typically ride in freezing rain, and have other rain jackets, the soft-shell is a the way to go. It's usually more versatile than a hardshell jacket, and you'll get 3 seasons use v the freezing/wet (oxymoronic?) conditions for which the hardshell is made.

In a downpour, the soft-shell should get you home or to a coffee shop. The hardshell will allow you to leave the house when most people opt for the trainer or skip the ride.

[Mark McM]

A softshell is more breathable, giving up a little in waterproofing. If you don't typically ride in freezing rain, and have other rain jackets, the soft-shell is a the way to go. It's usually more versatile than a hardshell jacket, and you'll get 3 seasons use v the freezing/wet (oxymoronic?) conditions for which the hardshell is made.

This is an over-generalization. For example, Gore makes hardshell versions of their Windstopper fabric (windproof but not waterproof) and softshell versions of their Goretex fabrics (waterproof).

Unfortunately, as there are so many different variations of outer fabrics, inner membranes, and even DWR coatings on the outer fabrics, it is hard to draw sweeping generalizations about them.

[Mark McM]

On all of this I should point out what most here already know and anyone in the Northwest definitely knows: Goretex works when the air inside is warmer than the air outside, the humidity outside is low, the moisture you are getting rid of is vapor only, and the membrane itself is dry and clean. If you buy a piece of Goretex to wear in Seattle or Portland weather in the winter, it's really a waste. The hydrophobic membrane can't perform in those conditions. If you have ever worn a good heavy duty Goretex jacket like the Alpha SV at about 4000 meters, you notice that you never seem to perspire -- everything passes through and you are toasty and dry inside. Just stand on the street in downtown Seattle in the same jacket and you are damp, cold and have sweaty skin.

As noted, Gore-Tex isn't ideal for continuous aerobic activity, because the vapor (moisture) transfer through the fabric just can't keep up with the rate of sweating. For cycling rainwear, the efficiency of the venting is generally more important than the breathability of the fabric. So how a jacket is made is usually more important than what it is made from.