Tubulars: Alloy vs Carbon

[pjmsj21]

I have resisted throwing out this question but since I am on the verge of putting dollars down on a new set of tubular wheels I thought I would see if there is something missing in my logic.

This will be my first set of road tubulars and I am strongly leaning towards alloy tubulars vs going the carbon route. However if you look at the wide variety of carbon road tubular rims/wheels vs the rather limited selection of alloy tubular rims, you really start to wonder if you are missing something that others are seeing in carbon wheels.

I am a reasonably serious, but merely average speed, recreational rider, living in the hilly and wet Northwest and thus have focused on alloy rather than carbon. I don't race but like most riders like to go as fast as possible and am looking for equipment that will provide me any possible advantage.

Should I reconsider and be looking at carbon tubulars and what advantages other than a bit of weight savings am I going to get with carbon?

As a reference point I should mention that I am looking at the Boyd Cycling Black and Tan allow tubulars with Veloflex Arenberg tires.

[fogrider]

if you're going to be riding in the wet, be careful!!! with that said, carbon is light and strong. that means quick acceleration and makes them feel fast. If you're really interested in speed, you will want aero rims, that means at least 400mm. get up to speed and and maintain it! but if you're going to ride them in wet conditions at speed, its going to feel like you're on a jet fighter going hot into a turn...I've ridden carbon rims when an unexpected shower hit...had to pretty much shut it down. with aluminum rims, there just not much that's aero and light. mavic kysriums SL tubulars should be pretty light but nowhere near 400mm deep...what are you considering?

[pjmsj21]

if you're going to be riding in the wet, be careful!!! with that said, carbon is light and strong. that means quick acceleration and makes them feel fast. If you're really interested in speed, you will want aero rims, that means at least 400mm. get up to speed and and maintain it! but if you're going to ride them in wet conditions at speed, its going to feel like you're on a jet fighter going hot into a turn...I've ridden carbon rims when an unexpected shower hit...had to pretty much shut it down. with aluminum rims, there just not much that's aero and light. mavic kysriums SL tubulars should be pretty light but nowhere near 400mm deep...what are you considering?

What seems to be among the best limited alloy options are the Boyd Cycling Black and Tans at 1414grams, Taiwanese built rims and hubs, Sapin CX-Ray spokes, assembled/built in the US.

[thwart]

Biggest benefits with carbon tubulars is lower wheelset weight, and more options in terms of choosing deeper aero rims. The trade-off is that you lose some braking efficiency, and will also likely pay more $.

You have to decide if those trade-offs are worth it.

For someone who's not racing, and is riding in wet conditions fairly frequently, one could make a pretty good argument for alloy rims.

[Dead Man]

I can't offer much of an opinion yet, since illness and work has recently essentially ELIMINATED my riding routine (almost two weeks since I've ridden at all), but I started riding tubbs this fall, also in the great wet PNW... I went aero carbon.

Will actually do my first long ride on them tomorrow.. but I've been doing 20-40 mile around-town rides on them, with a few climbs, and like them so far. Being use to alloy, the aero carbon is a totally different feel... the 56mm rims are stiff as hell, so you really feel the road- but, so far, as far as I can tell, this does not actually translate to a harsh ride, as the carbon also dampens.

I dare say it's like the signal is clearer, but not louder.

[gasman]

I have a couple buddies that ride carbon. They love the ride but get nervous on steep or wet descents. Lots of wet weather riding here as you know. They seem to have a great place in road races or crits where there advantages can come to the fore.
I'd personally stick with alloy just for the wet stopping power. But hey, get what you're burning to get. I rode alloy tubbies for years and loved them.

[ultraman6970]

Aluminum, you can survive with aluminum rims for 30 years or more, but at the price those asian wheels are coming to the market... for 250 bucks anybody can swap the wheels each 5 years to play safe.

Honestly? I would go aluminum but if you want to go asian carbon wheels is your call. The aero and gain in speed are super relative because if you dont train, a bike made of pure air wont fix the problem.

Good luck with the new wheels, whatever you pick :)

[FlashUNC]

Something to consider, if this is your first set of road tubies -- swapping brake pads.

Carbon tubies are fantastic, but certainly not the kind of thing to take out on a crappy, wet, gritty day. That calls for swapping pads, which is a gigantic pain in the rear. Unless I guess you've got a nice day bike and a crappy weather bike.

I first dipped my toe in with alloy tubulars. From a simplicity of setup standpoint, I definitely think they're the way to go.

Yes, fewer rim options, but you can get something that can give you a good idea if tubies are for you.

[oldpotatoe]

I have resisted throwing out this question but since I am on the verge of putting dollars down on a new set of tubular wheels I thought I would see if there is something missing in my logic.

This will be my first set of road tubulars and I am strongly leaning towards alloy tubulars vs going the carbon route. However if you look at the wide variety of carbon road tubular rims/wheels vs the rather limited selection of alloy tubular rims, you really start to wonder if you are missing something that others are seeing in carbon wheels.

I am a reasonably serious, but merely average speed, recreational rider, living in the hilly and wet Northwest and thus have focused on alloy rather than carbon. I don't race but like most riders like to go as fast as possible and am looking for equipment that will provide me any possible advantage.

Should I reconsider and be looking at carbon tubulars and what advantages other than a bit of weight savings am I going to get with carbon?

As a reference point I should mention that I am looking at the Boyd Cycling Black and Tan allow tubulars with Veloflex Arenberg tires.

Carbon-Stiff, many 'feel' better acceleration but actually feeling the stiffness. Way more expensive unless you are doing the private label(or not) asian carbon hoop and hub route. Generally lighter but even at 450 grams lighter, still only a pound or so on a probably pushing 200 pound bike/rider/clothes/water, etc.

Alloy you mentioned, 24/28..depending on you and your riding style, 'may' not be burley enough. 1400 grams or so is light for an alloy wheelset. Hubs a little, rims, no doubt, light-ish.

Tubulars offer their own comfort, cuz they are tubulars.

Congratulations on the tubular choice. They are a great 'technology', they are not a part of the black arts, are easy to glue, etc..

[shovelhd]

I train and race on carbon only (except on the trainer). You have to learn how to modulate braking on steep descents to avoid fade, but that's a good skill to have. Panic braking at 50mph is never a good idea. Brake pad choice is critical. I suspect a number of the braking complaints you hear about are from people who are not using pads that are optimized for their wheels.

[carpediemracing]

Over the years I've raced/ridden alloy and carbon tubulars.

TL;DR - I find carbon is better in the wet. Weight is pretty much the only factor but it affects how well I ride. Aero is aero, carbon or aluminum.

At this point although I still own some of the tubular wheel sets I had 20 years ago, I ride only the carbon ones (and I never bought a carbon/aluminum one except a disk wheel that had a carbon rim bonded to a honeycomb whatever disk center).

Anyway although I technically race (meaning I have a license and all that) to me a huge part of the thrill of riding is being able to go fast here and there. I can't go fast all the time so I am limited to when I can go fast. Therefore I try to make the most of the times I get to go fast.

The overwhelmingly huge feature/benefit of carbon tubulars is the lower weigh for a given aero "profile". By profile I mean either a shorter rim, a medium rim, or a wall of China rim.

I have a set of Jet 6/9s (clincher, alum rims with fairings, 60/90mm heights). I have a pair of Stinger 7/9s (tubular, all carbon, 75/90mm heights), and the wheel set (with tires, cassette, skewers, with the Jets being penalized for me putting on training clinchers) are 2 3/4 pounds apart (http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2014/08/equipment-bike-weight-red-tsunami.html). Since they have essentially the same hubs and the same spokes it means that the weight difference is at the rim/tire.

With the Jets I found that I couldn't readily accomplish one of my favorite things, to draft trucks. It took so much out of me to accelerate up to speed that I either never got in the draft or I blew up as soon as I got into it.

On the other hand when I used the Bastognes (non-aero Ardennes type wheels from HED so again, same hubs, same spokes, same tires as the Jets, just a different rim) I could get into a truck's draft and be there for a bit.

So, for me, since I enjoy that whole "accelerate up to speed" business, wheel weight is significant.

On the other hand when I train on the Jets I'm typically faster than when I'm on the Bastognes - the aero factor outweighs the weight bit. One example really struck me in particular. I was on a group ride, we do this one descent regularly, a bit bump, some curves, some whoop de doops, a hard 90 degree right curve (to set up for a small bridge) at the bottom. It's just fun. I happened to use the Bastognes one week and the Jets another. With the Bastognes I started the descent near the back, I sprinted past others, I took a hard right curve at 100% (oncoming traffic is visible for a while so it was safe), etc. I was pretty psyched about the descent. My max speed was 49 mph.

On the Jets I started the descent at the front. I didn't want to be a jerk and sprint away from everyone so I tucked, coasted, and was going pretty slow by the time I hit that 90 degree turn. To my absolute shock I had gone 49.5 mph, a touch faster than on the Bastognes, but without sprinting, without drafting, etc.

As far as brakes go when I use KoolStop salmons I'm comfortable with both the carbons and aluminum wheels. I don't change pads between wheels, haven't since before I got the HEDs. I find that carbon rims have less grip initially then significantly better grip (so it's easier to skid) whereas the aluminum don't have as much grip but it's more consistent. I scared myself on a couple wet steep descents on aluminum rims because I was waiting for the brakes to grab and they never did.

Finally, one of the good things about tubulars is that you can ride them flat. Not the case with the wide carbon rims, at least I wouldn't ride a flat on one. I'd ride on a flat regular width rim (21mm) and I have, carbon and aluminum. However I'd be much more likely to keep going on an aluminum rim since I'd done it and not had any problems. I get super paranoid with carbon rims.

If you got this far congrats. Hope my experiences help.

[Dead Man]

Something to consider, if this is your first set of road tubies -- swapping brake pads.

Carbon tubies are fantastic, but certainly not the kind of thing to take out on a crappy, wet, gritty day. That calls for swapping pads, which is a gigantic pain in the rear. Unless I guess you've got a nice day bike and a crappy weather bike.

I first dipped my toe in with alloy tubulars. From a simplicity of setup standpoint, I definitely think they're the way to go.

Yes, fewer rim options, but you can get something that can give you a good idea if tubies are for you.

Nah, I don't think anyone really bothers with swapping pads these days. Like the man above said, Kool Stop salmons work fine for both, so why swap?

[oldpotatoe]

Nah, I don't think anyone really bothers with swapping pads these days. Like the man above said, Kool Stop salmons work fine for both, so why swap?

Why? Cuz you use the pads on aluminum rims, then use them on carbon rims and the metal you imbed into the pads will KILL the carbon rims. So yes there is a reason to swap pads. Use the ones from carbon on aluminum, the other way around, adios carbon sidewalks.

[FlashUNC]

Nah, I don't think anyone really bothers with swapping pads these days. Like the man above said, Kool Stop salmons work fine for both, so why swap?

Why? Cuz you use the pads on aluminum rims, then use them on carbon rims and the metal you imbed into the pads will KILL the carbon rims. So yes there is a reason to swap pads. Use the ones from carbon on aluminum, the other way around, adios carbon sidewalks.

To the Tater's point, I like not killing rims. You have to swap pads.

And this is why I wonder about buying used carbon wheels from some folks.

[Dead Man]

Why? Cuz you use the pads on aluminum rims, then use them on carbon rims and the metal you imbed into the pads will KILL the carbon rims. So yes there is a reason to swap pads. Use the ones from carbon on aluminum, the other way around, adios carbon sidewalks.

I don't think so.

[Dead Man]

To the Tater's point, I like not killing rims. You have to swap pads.

And this is why I wonder about buying used carbon wheels from some folks.

Fortunately, brake track wear is not something you can hide- if someone has "kill"ed their carbon rims by swapping with aluminum, it'll be immediately obvious

[oldpotatoe]

I don't think so.

Seen it more than once in the shop. Not recently, cuz the 'word' is pretty much out now but early on, very common to see a carbon rim with huge gouges out of the sidewall. But for your carbon/aluminum wheels, do what ya want, your wheels.BUT you also mentioned if a carbon wheel brake track was damaged by using pads used on aluminum it would be obvious(?)..

Swap pads, don't use pads from aluminum rims onto all carbon wheels.

[Dead Man]

Seen it more than once in the shop. Not recently, cuz the 'word' is pretty much out now but early on, very common to see a carbon rim with huge gouges out of the sidewall. But for your carbon/aluminum wheels, do what ya want, your wheels.

How can you know that a worn carbon brake track is due to swapping aluminums with the same pads? Road grime has got to be way more abrasive than microscopic aluminum flecks in alloy brake dust, for instance.

[carpediemracing]

I wouldn't do something that needlessly wrecks the most expensive part/s on my bike.

This is a picture after 4 seasons on the HED Stingers (on the black bike). It was also the 4th season on the Bastognes, pictured behind on what is my red bike. Other than some red brake pad streaks there's no noticeable wear/marks on the Stingers. Over the 4 seasons I had KS black (wore out), another set of black (wore out), red (which I took off only because I changed brakes), and then finally a salmon/black combo (pretty worn now).
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GC_08RhNWsI/UWgGjqvvlJI/AAAAAAAAE3Q/fMHmWFDsDto/s800/DSC_0621.JPG

I experimented with not swapping brake pads after seeing some Koolstop ads and also carefully examining my rims. Just because someone says such-and-such works it doesn't mean I don't check it myself. My first "non-swap" experiment was on my Reynolds, with FiRs for the aluminum rims. By the time I went to the HEDs I was already not using the Swisstop Yellows on the Reynolds because, frankly, I got better performance from the KS. I used Koolstop blacks (dry) but the bike was not good to ride in the rain. I went to salmons, no problems, and I have a black/salmon mix now.

btw if you want to swap pads quickly you can. It takes maybe a minute or two. Longer than swapping wheels but not as long as, say, changing a flat. When I thought that swapping pads was important I even did a little post on how to swap pads relatively quickly (http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2008/01/how-to-campy-brake-pad-swap.html).

[oldpotatoe]

How can you know that a worn carbon brake track is due to swapping aluminums with the same pads? Road grime has got to be way more abrasive than microscopic aluminum flecks in alloy brake dust, for instance.

Cuz it's not worn but gouged badly. Hardly microscopic.

[fogrider]

How can you know that a worn carbon brake track is due to swapping aluminums with the same pads? Road grime has got to be way more abrasive than microscopic aluminum flecks in alloy brake dust, for instance.

Road grime?!?! if you're going to ride $2,000 wheels, you're going to have to take care of them!!! is it asking too much to wipe down the rims and pads after each ride? another reason to use the right pads is heat...certain pads will get too hot which has lead to the carbon delaminating. so use the right pads, keep them clean, and don't mix rim material with the pads.

Also I think the pads for carbon rims tend to be soft, so an aluminum rim will shred them quickly.

[Dead Man]

Cuz it's not worn but gouged badly. Hardly microscopic.

If chunks of aluminum are coming off your wheels, the problem isn't switching rim types between brake pads... it's that chunks are coming off your aluminum wheels. I've never had anything visible to the naked eye come off my aluminum brake track

[saab2000]

If chunks of aluminum are coming off your wheels, the problem isn't switching rim types between brake pads... it's that chunks are coming off your aluminum wheels. I've never had anything visible to the naked eye come off my aluminum brake track

Sh(tuff) gets embedded in rubber brakes, including aluminum and tiny pebbles and grains of sand.

Carbon rims (good ones) are the better part of $1K. It's worth checking this sh(tuff) out.

I've picked lots of things out of brake pads and tires with a pick. Remove your wheels once and go over your brake pads with a damp paper towel and see what you remove. Everything you remove is abrasive and has been eating into that rims, whether aluminum or carbon.

And moisture multiplies this many times over.

[oldpotatoe]

If chunks of aluminum are coming off your wheels, the problem isn't switching rim types between brake pads... it's that chunks are coming off your aluminum wheels. I've never had anything visible to the naked eye come off my aluminum brake track

Last post, I'm out. Do what ya want sport.

[Lionel]

I do not switch pads, I switch brake pad holders and pads. This is fast.

[jr59]

I don't think so.

I would tend to think that you would need to reconsider your thoughts on this!
Of course you are welcome to think and do what you wish. But I would use the YEARS of experience on this board, before I put a high dollar pair of wheels in harms way. b/c one person said it was ok.

As I said, everyone can do what they wish, and you are sure welcome to use/buy what you wish. Good luck!

[thwart]

And this is why I wonder about buying used carbon wheels from some folks.
Yeah, this discussion has given me pause as well.

Funny thing is that the more abraded the carbon brake track is, the better the braking may be.

For a while anyway… :rolleyes:

[thorpej]

Nah, I don't think anyone really bothers with swapping pads these days. Like the man above said, Kool Stop salmons work fine for both, so why swap?

The reason you absolutely MUST swap is because braking on an aluminum rim can cause tiny bits of metal to become embedded in the pads. Using those pads on your carbon rim can then cause scoring, which can compromise the rim.

[Dead Man]

Last post, I'm out. Do what ya want sport.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697891997&stc=1&d=1418561192


Well you're kind of confirming what has been my experience with this pic..... looks like a crappy pad above and a Koolstop below- note the lack of crap in the better pad.

Doing a little more research on the topic, looks like this was a problem with previous and/or crappy brake pads. I've actually seen these chunks before, back when I used crappy pads, and I think I just assumed they were part of the composition of the pad. These days I roll way better wheels, and use only Koolstops, and I haven't seen anything like that since. I definitely wouldn't use pads that looked like that on carbon rims, though- so I see your point, to that extent.

However.... going all the way back to my original point.... with Koolstops and maintenance, I don't see any issues with swapping wheels on the same pads. Apparently pad choice is critical to this- don't do it with crappy and/or embedded pads.

[Rusty Luggs]

".. with Koolstops and maintenance, I don't see any issues with swapping wheels on the same pads. Apparently pad choice is critical to this- don't do it with crappy and/or embedded pads. "


I have absolutely seen flakes of aluminum embedded in koolstop salmon pads, in fact, they actually seemed to be MORE prone to this than other pads I have used. Just my experience, though.
I change my pads when swapping from aluminum to carbon rims 100% of the time. Cheap insurance and they work better in my opinion too. But as potato said, ya’ll can do whatever you want.