OT: Anybody else getting this message across the hall?

[Louis]

Has Josh changed the rules over there?

I get this if I'm logged in and I click on a thread.

However, when I look at the names of folks online there doesn't seem to have been a wholesale change over to "real" names, nor a bunch of new "John Doe" guys.

[gone]

Yep, I'm getting it too. I believe there was a ····storm in the framebuilder forum about real names.

[CNY rider]

I got the same thing but then was able to go to the threads.
I keep checking back there to see if the last remaining non-mod poster will voluntarily shut the lights or get banned too?
What has always been a circle jerk has a smaller and smaller circle by the day.

[Louis]

Yep, I'm getting it too. I believe there was a ····storm in the framebuilder forum about real names.

Ah - that explains it. I bet it was builders complaining about anonymous folks complaining about builders. (I haven't been to that sub-forum in ages.)

So now everyone's going to know that I'm a dog?

[thegunner]

yep locked out in entirety now, what is this...

[jr59]

I guess I'm done over there!

[PJN]

I added my real name and then posted to see if it displayed - it didn't - it displayed my user name. I'm guessing it will switch to real names soon enough.

I like it over ther but things have been getting stranger and stranger as of late.

The Internet is ····ing weird.

[nighthawk]

A few months ago (possibly longer? I can't remember) there was a push to either have your real name as your forum handle or atleast in your signature block if you wanted to be able to post in the frame builders subforum. From the looks of it they want real names for the whole forum.

[Cat3roadracer]

Who needs anything across any hall when we have what we have here?

[Louis]

I think there's plenty of good stuff there too.

Each forum has it's own flavor and I'm willing to appreciate both.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I don't give a rat's ass about those clowns over there. I was banned about three years ago because of a private dispute I had with a builder who failed to live up to multiple delivery deadlines with me, having nothing to do with anything I ever posted. But because the builder was one of the cool kids, I was summarily banned, without notice.

You simply cannot run a forum that way.

[Jeff Borisch]

What's next? Passport photo avatars?

I've used my real name there since day one. However I disagree with the policy I will not comply.

[Louis]

UJA, I had the opposite experience:

I had a minor run-in with an outspoken mod who started to fool with the settings on my profile. I sent Josh an e-mail ('cause I could no longer log in) and he fixed things. Then a few months later that mod himself was banned. (I assume not because of what he did to me, unless there was unbeknownst to me a pattern of him harassing others too.)

[gone]

I just logged out, never to log in again. I'll read it anonymously, if at all.

All they've done is reduce the number of participants, perhaps that's the goal: pare things down until only the "cool kids" remain.

Never was one of those.

As was said previously, what was always a circle jerk just became a smaller circle.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

UJA, I had the opposite experience:

I had a minor run-in with an outspoken mod who started to fool with the settings on my profile. I sent Josh an e-mail ('cause I could no longer log in) and he fixed things. Then a few months later that mod himself was banned. (I assume not because of what he did to me, unless there was unbeknownst to me a pattern of him harassing others too.)

Louis,

You told me about your experience at about the time of my banning. My banning, however, was never undone. Josh told me that it wasn't worth fighting over and to just let it go. All I could imagine is that he was overruled by others, incredibly.

I've actually survived quite well not being able to participate on that forum.

--Robert

[Louis]

What's next? Passport photo avatars?

OK, here's mine:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_d1dNExXUnnI/TL8A_WkE_pI/AAAAAAAAABg/OGZNC3Y4JS0/s320/imagesCA36X82J.jpg

[Louis]

You told me about your experience at about the time of my banning.

Sorry about that - I try to avoid repeating myself.

I've actually survived quite well not being able to participate on that forum.

I hear ya. Some things aren't worth the stress. Besides, I'd have at least a few more hours per week in my life if folks would ban me from this forum too...

[eddief]

with only 16,377 postings, undoubtedly there is still a lot you have to say :).

Don't you still have a Kirk we are waiting to see?

Sorry about that - I try to avoid repeating myself.



I hear ya. Some things aren't worth the stress. Besides, I'd have at least a few more hours per week in my life if folks would ban me from this forum too...

[R3awak3n]

I just logged out, never to log in again. I'll read it anonymously, if at all.

All they've done is reduce the number of participants, perhaps that's the goal: pare things down until only the "cool kids" remain.

Never was one of those.

As was said previously, what was always a circle jerk just became a smaller circle.

this is perfect with a username like yours.



I just put my first name it worked fine, just put a fake name, really doesnt matter. I have 6 posts there, barely go there but with broken ankle I just passed by today to look at the gallery and punish myself.

[Louis]

with only 16,377 postings, undoubtedly there is still a lot you have to say :).

I bet at least 10% of those are complaining about you. ;)

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Don't you still have a Kirk we are waiting to see?

Is that thing still unbuilt? How does that happen?

[TMB]

I am a partner in a major consulting firm, doing business in a highly regulated environment.

We are allowed, in the partnership, to participate in social media (the greatest misnomer ever for something inherently anti-social) and in on line forums.

We are not allowed, however, to associate our online activity in any way to our real names or place of employment lest that association be brought back on the work environment, the partnership and ultimately client/regulator relations.

Certain people with extraordinarily high opinions of themselves choose not realize that there may be reasons people do not use "real names".

So be it.

[gasman]

I lost interest over there when Swoop messed with and deleted some of my posts. He later got banned.
I've been fine not doing anything other than a rare visit since then.

[Louis]

Is that thing still unbuilt? How does that happen?

See my posts about simultaneously being busy at work and wasting too much of my free time on this silly forum.

(I was hoping you guys had forgotten about that.)

I know it's insane, but that's life.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Just messing with you Louis. Still looking forward to seeing that sweet candy apple red Kirk rolling.

[zmudshark]

I am a partner in a major consulting firm, doing business in a highly regulated environment.

We are allowed, in the partnership, to participate in social media (the greatest misnomer ever for something inherently anti-social) and in on line forums.

We are not allowed, however, to associate our online activity in any way to our real names or place of employment lest that association be brought back on the work environment, the partnership and ultimately client/regulator relations.

Certain people with extraordinarily high opinions of themselves choose not realize that there may be reasons people do not use "real names".

So be it.
So you're back! :hello:

I just tried to go there, got the message, put my name as zMud Shark. I can participate if I care to. I have 15 posts there, joined in 2010.

[pbarry]

VS' hit numbers will be above average since this thread was started. The usual suspects still have a nom-de-plume.

[Ralph]

I stopped going over there some time ago. Never could understand what they were saying. Atmo this and atmo that.

[pbarry]

^^^ :beer:

[buldogge]

Pure laziness…PLUS…an unwillingness to let me try my hand at a Shimano-based build. He could have it back within a couple days and be on the road next week…

If he wanted to!

-Mark in St. Louis

ps…I will test ride it thoroughly first and make sure it is ready-to-go when he gets it!

Is that thing still unbuilt? How does that happen?

See my posts about simultaneously being busy at work and wasting too much of my free time on this silly forum.

(I was hoping you guys had forgotten about that.)

I know it's insane, but that's life.

[Don49]

So now everyone's going to know that I'm a dog?I've suspected it for awhile, but I didn't want to out you.

[pbarry]

I've suspected it for awhile, but I didn't want to out you.

But, a vegetarian dog..

[choke]

I don't participate much over there but I do enjoy looking at the pics in the ride threads as well as the cycling gallery. But like TMB I'm not going to use my real name as a log-in so I guess I'm done too.

let me try my hand at a Shimano-based buildDon't forget to wear gloves....I hear that you can catch something if you handle too much of that stuff....:D

[TMB]

So you're back! :hello:



I guess that will depend on whether I start getting PM's wishing me ill health.

[akelman]

I guess that will depend on whether I start getting PM's wishing me ill health.

Wait, what? Regardless, it's good to see your "name" here.

[AgilisMerlin]

i will hang out in the hallway,


smoke em if you got em'


k

[teleguy57]

I think there's plenty of good stuff there too.

Each forum has it's own flavor and I'm willing to appreciate both.
I am a partner in a major consulting firm, doing business in a highly regulated environment.

We are allowed, in the partnership, to participate in social media (the greatest misnomer ever for something inherently anti-social) and in on line forums.

We are not allowed, however, to associate our online activity in any way to our real names or place of employment lest that association be brought back on the work environment, the partnership and ultimately client/regulator relations.

Certain people with extraordinarily high opinions of themselves choose not realize that there may be reasons people do not use "real names".

So be it.

Agree with both of you. I will sit this out for a bit and ponder the words and wisdom of one of the sages of ancient times:

"Please accept my resignation. I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member". Groucho Marx

[sparky33]

I think there's plenty of good stuff there too.

Each forum has it's own flavor and I'm willing to appreciate both.


For the most part I find great folks and discussion there.
However, there are a select few who seem too cool for basic courtesy, and they have the sway to continue that way I guess.
Recent uptick in cool kiddism rubs me the wrong way but I'm not going to freak out cuz it's just the dumb Internet. My life moves on with or without it.

[Louis]

But, a vegetarian dog..

With "friends" like you guys, who needs crazed box-jockeys out on the roads? ;)

[makoti]

I may be wrong about this, I haven't really followed it & just heard about it here, but it is only in the one sub-forum, right? Frame builders? Given that that particular forum is (or seems to be to me) for people who actually build to meet & greet, it seems fair to ask you to introduce yourself up front.
If it spills over to the entire place, that's different but not sure I'd have a huge problem with it. I'd harumph, but likely comply.
I filled out the real name field with something less than real just to get past the page & see why I had to do that, but if I posted to that forum, I'd be ok with it.
I do, however, see how some people who are much more important than I (not being snarky) would have an issue with it. The press would ABSOLUTELY find out that Rick Perry posted to a forum that he thought Trek sucked.

[sparky33]

Yep.

Can someone throw together a 'real name' generator?

Best,

Not my real name



We are not allowed, however, to associate our online activity in any way to our real names or place of employment lest that association be brought back on the work environment, the partnership and ultimately client/regulator relations.

Certain people with extraordinarily high opinions of themselves choose not realize that there may be reasons people do not use "real names".

So be it.

[palincss]

I don't participate much over there but I do enjoy looking at the pics in the ride threads as well as the cycling gallery. But like TMB I'm not going to use my real name as a log-in so I guess I'm done too.


I do not believe you need to.

[pbarry]

With "friends" like you guys, who needs crazed box-jockeys out on the roads? ;)

Exactly. If we didn't love you, we wouldn't give you a hard time. :)

[rbtmcardle]

I stopped going over there some time ago. Never could understand what they were saying. Atmo this and atmo that.



^^^ :beer:




Glad I'm not the only one... Shoot, the atmo was easy, it was all the other vague references that confounded my simple mind, I'm still looking for the glossary sub-forum


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gasman]

I don't think you have use your real name to log on. You just have to give them your name to post. You can follow threads when you sign in, at least I could.

[dancinkozmo]

i caved and offered up my real name...Suq Madiq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FSwGoJOCjw

[Louis]

i caved and offered up my real name...Suq Madiq

Your parents must be proud...

[fuzzalow]

The guy that pays the bills to keep that place running has every right to exercise full, iron-fisted, cool cat editorial control of all he surveys in that domain. It's his to run into the ground so go right ahead, knock yerself out.

I couldn't care less.

[Llewellyn]

I stopped going over there some time ago. Never could understand what they were saying. Atmo this and atmo that.

Yep, same here. It's always been a strange sort of place. Seems to have its own secret language that only the cool kids are party to.

Not my cup of tea.

[professerr]

An LBS owner and a local custom guy both have said to me that basically they see the insular and sort of put-down vibe of that place as a buzzkill that is bad for business. So I”m pretty sure they’d see narrowing the audience as a good thing overall, for everyone. That’s pretty much what I think.

[Peter P.]

I had the same issues logging in even though my screen name is already real name.

The impetus for the "real name" requirement was a post by Richard Sachs where he complained he'd had enough of some anonymous poster giving him some grief, presumably on a V-Salon sub forum. I figured I wouldn't get a direct answer if I posted there so I'll ask here: Does anyone know specifically the threads or posts that were in question? I'd like to read them myself. I tried searching the forum but nothing was apparent. Perhaps the posts were deleted by the moderators?

[93legendti]

Richard has expressed his preference for "real names" here as well. Not sure why or how enforceable that would be. I could claim my real name is Aleck Zoolander (from the Frankenmuth Zoolanders)...and set up a gmail account to reflect that name...is anyone checking id's?

Ironically, some of those VS guys when they were here had two different profiles/posting names.

[slidey]

Haha, yeah. I remember I stopped going there as it seemed to be a forum filled with pro level cyclists who would all exclusively yet openly, speak in code. I couldn't get to grips with either of the "trends", so just stopped going there.

I stopped going over there some time ago. Never could understand what they were saying. Atmo this and atmo that.

[Brian Smith]

I think that probably everything bad that has happened over there has happened over here (and probably previously) as well. What's new?

[choke]

Does anyone know specifically the threads or posts that were in question? I'd like to read them myself. I tried searching the forum but nothing was apparent. Perhaps the posts were deleted by the moderators?

Go to the 'Frame Forum' and look for the post about 8 down from the top that's locked.

[abalone]

I really enjoy this forum. It has a good mix of users here that I like. From time to time, I also read some other forums. Some other forums are good, some bad, and some just abnormal.

There is a growing controversy over at Velocipede Salon where a lot of framebuilders post and I was wondering if anyone knew what is going on there. It looks like that are really tightening up the ship and threatening to ban people. I'm not sure why. I haven't ever seen that place as full of obscenity, insults, other any other behaviors that usually get people banned. I read that one of their long-time users of several years was recently banned simply because of a difference of opinion about how their forum should be run, but one of the moderators locked the thread that people were complaining about him being banned. Anyone know what's going on and what the unrest is all about?

[jlwdm]

The guy that pays the bills to keep that place running has every right to exercise full, iron-fisted, cool cat editorial control of all he surveys in that domain. It's his to run into the ground so go right ahead, knock yerself out.

I couldn't care less.

I guess that guy is Josh, but in my observations he his a great guy and a great rider. Running a forum is not easy and overall he does an excellent job.

A great recent thread was DarrenCt's ride from CT to NYC in the rain. Informal rides are hard to pull off, especially with bad weather. I enjoyed reading about a group of really good riders riding into NYC in inclement weather.

Jeff

[eddief]

it's winter, not as much cycling going on, gotta find a way to dissipate nervous energy. challenging to get aerobic exercise via the keyboard, but i guarantee we will give it the college try.

Why is Dick a nickname for Richard?

Today I found out why Dick is short for Richard.
The name Richard is thought by most etymologists to derive from the Proto-Germanic ‘Rikharthu’, meaning more or less “hard ruler” (‘Rik-’ meaning ‘ruler’ and ‘-harthu’ meaning ‘hard’). This was adopted into Old High German as ‘Ricohard’, and from there to Old French, then Old English as ‘Richeard’, and today as ‘Richard’.

You might think from Richard meaning “hard ruler” and being a man’s name that Dick being a nickname for Richard probably came about for pejorative reasons, borrowing from one of the other meanings of “dick”, such as ‘dick’ as in ‘jerk’ or ‘dick as in ‘penis’. However, the first record of ‘dick’ meaning ‘jerk’ didn’t come about until a few hundred years after its association with Richard and the first record of it referring to a penis wasn’t until the 1890s, as a British army slang term. Exactly how that latter meaning came about isn’t known, being a slang term that was considered somewhat uncouth to put on paper. Because of that, ‘dick’ meaning ‘penis’ probably had been around a while before the 1890s, but not nearly long enough before to have contributed to the Richard/Dick connection.

How Dick became a nickname for Richard is known and is one of those “knee bone connected to the thigh bone” type progressions, somewhat similar to how the word ‘soccer’ came about. Due to people having to write everything by hand, shortened versions of Richard were common, such as ‘Ric’ or ‘Rich’. This in turn gave rise to nicknames like ‘Richie’, ‘Rick’, and ‘Ricket’, among others. People also used to like to use rhyming names; thus, someone who was nicknamed Rich might further be nicknamed Hitch. Thus, Richard -> Ric -> Rick gave rise to nicknames like Dick and Hick around the early 13th century.

While few today call Richards ‘Hick’, the nickname ‘Dick’ has stuck around, and of course has come to mean many other things as well. Its persistence as associated with Richard is probably in part because around the 16th century Dick started to be synonymous with ‘man’, ‘lad’, or ‘fellow’, sort of a general name for any ‘Tom, Dick, or Francis” (which by the way appears in Shakespeare’s Henry IV, written in the late 16th century, with Dick at this point firmly established as an “every man” name). It may well be that this association with ‘man’ is in turn how ‘dick’ eventually came to mean ‘penis’.

[cash05458]

well...sachs isn't taking orders anymore right? so why should he give a ····...the whole thing was prolly just a market for the guy...he seems to like making STATEMENTS here and there..so maybe this is his way of killing the dumb beast...so who cares...I like some of the ideas and pics over there and have no problem putting my own name out there...but I have found it less and less interesting over the last few years...another dead forum...who cares...meanwhile, this one survived the serotta change years ago and has become a real and honest great place to meet good people...good for those who did that and us lucky enough to have been here...:banana:

[R3awak3n]

and then you realize people are getting frustrated and upset about the topic of bicycles.

[jlwdm]

There is a thread already on this forum.

Jeff (not giving my last name)

[AngryScientist]

threads merged. same topic.

[Wilkinson4]

What happens across the hall, stays across the hall:fight: Meh, here or there our disagreements are tame compared to many forums on the inter web.

mIKE

ps. Campy is better!

[Doug Fattic]

I don’t get what the real problem is using real names. This is a separate argument from whether a forum has the right stuff to want to be around. I get that some have job responsibilities that require them keep their names out of public view but I don’t think that is where the passion is really coming from. Mostly I hang at the framebuilder’s forum to school kiddos that want to learn more about how to build frames. I almost never answered questions from those whose that didn’t use their real names. I didn’t want to share my hard earned knowledge with strangers. Helping others is currency in establishing friendships. I totally get why real names are being asked to be used. People have to take responsibility for what they write and it helps builds community. Does using a screen name have anything to do with logging on at work and not wanting to get caught cheating their employers of their paid time?

Doug Fattic (my real and screen name)

[EricEstlund]

Hi guys-

I haven't read this full thread, but wanted to chime in a bit. I am a moderator over there in the frame forum section.

It's all a work in progress, and any changes are done with the best of intentions. If you participate over there and find value in it, please feel free to add civil discourse. I'm a huge fan of maturely expressed dissenting opinion. As a guy with some vested interest over there I will say that we (as a VSalon community) are working to make it better.

Thanks-

Eric

[texbike]

Meh.

^^^^^Why has it taken 5 pages for this most appropriate sentiment on this subject to finally be expressed??? Well said Mike. Well said. ;)

Texbike

P.S. OK it's out of context to what Mike was actually saying, but heh, whatevs...

Happy Holidays!

[abalone]

Martin Luther King said that people should be judged by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin.

Why can't people be judged by the content of their posts, and not by their first and last names? Why is this even an issue? Give me a break. Moderators should moderate posts only, not whether someone has a real name or not.

[cash05458]

well, Richard just posted his word on it...no real names?...then pretty much leave and who cares...at least he is being firm and strong...I don't thing he gives a ···· anymore to be honest...that is fine...


that seems to have changed in last few minutes via his post...now it is abit lighter...so pay no mind to the above...guess maybe they are discussing over there...

[vav]

Can't we all get along....?

Of all the unimportant things in my life, bikes are the most important :banana:

[jlwdm]

...Does using a screen name have anything to do with logging on at work and not wanting to get caught cheating their employers of their paid time?

..

Not for me, and I am guessing not for most others.

Jeff

[cash05458]

Can't we all get along....?

Of all the unimportant things in my life, bikes are the most important :banana:

I agree 100 percent Vav...:banana:

will be proud to wear my paceline cap I bought last month this upcoming spring when this winter is over...

via over there...just sorta silly stuff...you would think we are getting abit too old for this sorta drama...

[vav]

I agree 100 percent Vav...:banana:

will be proud to wear my paceline cap I bought last month this upcoming spring when this winter is over...

via over there...just sorta silly stuff...you would think we are getting abit too old for this sorta drama...

Why wait for spring? :)

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8573/15243670303_5ecd0f52bf_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pe2N6M)IMG_20141123_143744 (https://flic.kr/p/pe2N6M) by vavpa (https://www.flickr.com/people/63560619@N06/), on Flickr

[fuzzalow]

I guess that guy is Josh, but in my observations he his a great guy and a great rider. Running a forum is not easy and overall he does an excellent job.

A great recent thread was DarrenCt's ride from CT to NYC in the rain. Informal rides are hard to pull off, especially with bad weather. I enjoyed reading about a group of really good riders riding into NYC in inclement weather.

I think the owner of the forum under discussion here is Mr. Sachs. All the others are quite possibly nice people but I think they have no ownership and they simply do as they are told. Yeah, I know, lots of "I think"s in making statements about another forum which means I'm not really sure of my facts as to what I'm talkin' about. And that would be a true statement.

The editorial bent in that place is not for me. And whatever happens to that place I couldn't care less - although as a symbolic gesture to pluralism I'd feign sincere that they should stay open as a vibrant forum.

The fuss is that that place exists IMO to overtly cultivate and drive clients & customers to the sponsors and most favored businesses of that forum. The difference is that businesses must participate as public entities in that forum because they are accountable as businesses to their clients. A forum participant does not derive the same commercial benefit as a favored sponsor and yet has to forfeit privacy in order to participate in that forum. Under these rules there is an unequal return in effect for the cost imposed to all with the direct benefits only going to the few.

Which is how that place was run right from the beginning anyway. Hey, anyone that hasn't figured that out is too dumb to earn enough to get squeezed for $$ anyway so for them - no harm no foul.

[chasea]

If you feel unwelcome or unappreciated because of a "cool kids table" on a web forum, well, I just don't know how to feel. I'm sorry? Go outside and get some sun, Poindexter.
;)

[fuzzalow]

I'm a huge fan of maturely expressed dissenting opinion. As a guy with some vested interest over there I will say that we (as a VSalon community) are working to make it better.

I just saw this.

Don't be absurd. Dissent does not exist on that forum. Toe the line or be shut down, shot down or be banned. The most ludicrous enforcement of group-think I have witnessed in a bike forum.

Please do not bring that sort of blatant propaganda into this forum.

[cash05458]

"Don't be absurd. Dissent does not exist on that forum. Toe the line or be shut down, shot down or be banned. The most ludicrous enforcement of group-think I have witnessed in a bike forum."




This...yes...my feeling as well...

[jr59]

Hi guys-

I haven't read this full thread, but wanted to chime in a bit. I am a moderator over there in the frame forum section.

It's all a work in progress, and any changes are done with the best of intentions. If you participate over there and find value in it, please feel free to add civil discourse. I'm a huge fan of maturely expressed dissenting opinion. As a guy with some vested interest over there I will say that we (as a VSalon community) are working to make it better.

Thanks-

Eric

REALLY? See below

If you feel unwelcome or unappreciated because of a "cool kids table" on a web forum, well, I just don't know how to feel. I'm sorry? Go outside and get some sun, Poindexter.
;)

[jr59]

"Don't be absurd. Dissent does not exist on that forum. Toe the line or be shut down, shot down or be banned. The most ludicrous enforcement of group-think I have witnessed in a bike forum."




This...yes...my feeling as well...

correct

[chasea]

REALLY? See below

I think you missed my point.

[gasman]

Hi guys-

I haven't read this full thread, but wanted to chime in a bit. I am a moderator over there in the frame forum section.

It's all a work in progress, and any changes are done with the best of intentions. If you participate over there and find value in it, please feel free to add civil discourse. I'm a huge fan of maturely expressed dissenting opinion. As a guy with some vested interest over there I will say that we (as a VSalon community) are working to make it better.

Thanks-

Eric
Thanks for your work Eric. I think there are a lot great guys and knowledgeable riders over there. Josh is a good guy from what I can tell and I've met some of the members at NAHBS .Let's not bash them . We have our own problems here at times. If you don't want to participate it's no hair off their back.
We all love bikes and riding. We have that in common.
Enjoy the ride !

[hokoman]

I visit both forums and thought it was weird that they asked for a name when I went on today. Read a couple things, looked at some bikes and came back here to find this thread. All I know is that I lost all respect for Richard Sachs today. Zero desire to throw my leg over one of his bikes.

[Gsinill]

Could be worse, at least you don't have to "sign off" ;)

[abalone]

.

[abalone]

I just saw this.

Don't be absurd. Dissent does not exist on that forum. Toe the line or be shut down, shot down or be banned. The most ludicrous enforcement of group-think I have witnessed in a bike forum.

Please do not bring that sort of blatant propaganda into this forum.


I also agree with the sentiment that dissenting opinion truly does not exist on VSalon. There have been VSalon users recently banned from that forum for having a dissenting opinion, yet the reason the VSalon mods give is for "not playing well with others in the sandbox". That is purely subjective and abusive enforcement of the cool kids mantra. Nothing more. The cool kids need to grow some thick skin and need to deal with it better when their others aren't continually stroking their egos.

When a longtime Vsalon user gets banned after years of contributing informative posts on that forum because he had some criticism of the new rules, something or someone else is ruling with an iron fist. And then, when other VSalon users come to that banned user's defense and that thread gets locked, that is NOT an example of welcoming dissenting opinion.

[MattTuck]

I spend enough time here, I am not a regular contributor there. I do like their collection of hampsten pictures.

[hockeybike]

There's something somewhat beautiful about a forum based on commenting about bikes when we can't getting enough of riding said bikes hosts a thread discussing commenting on bike discussion since we can't get enough bike discussion.

Yes, we not only need to discuss bikes, we need to discuss how bikes are discussed.

Hooray for the internet. Allowing us to fulfill our every desire.

Also, anyone got a 54cm bike with a tall headtube? Wrong forum, but seems like this thread is getting some views!

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I think you missed my point.

And you missed ours.

[chasea]

And you missed ours.

I used two smiley-face-emoji things in spite of my feelings for them. Thought that'd be enough.

(banana jumping through hoop)

[jr59]

And you missed ours.

It's a typical response from one of the so called kool kids over there. I would expect no less from that crowd.

Oh yea, BTW; I'm glad to see this poster has heal up well enough to get along. And I do mean that.

But, if one of the non-kool kids posted something like what he did, that person would be banned or shouted down. I have to finish up a transaction over there. After that, NEVER again! I like Josh, but this has pushed me over the edge. So I wish that sandbox well, but will never visit it again. I'm not kool enough.

[chasea]

It's a typical response from one of the so called kool kids over there. I would expect no less from that crowd.

Oh yea, BTW; I'm glad to see this poster has heal up well enough to get along. And I do mean that.

But, if one of the non-kool kids posted something like what he did, that person would be banned or shouted down. I have to finish up a transaction over there. After that, NEVER again! I like Josh, but this has pushed me over the edge. So I wish that sandbox well, but will never visit it again. I'm not kool enough.

In plain English, I guess. I have no desire to be a cool kid on any internet forum. It simply isn't possible, as hanging out on web forums is inherently uncool. See where I'm going with this? The coolest web forum is still a web forum.

Now, sometimes I may be too clever, or honest to the point of being blunt; but, hey, that's just my charm. Any offense you're taking to something I've said is simply that, offense you're taking. Take it. I'm not hurt by it. I could be overly cautious in the way I write, but I'd still have no control over how it's read. So, I'm not going to worry about it. Faith in humanity and all that jazz.

Edit: Walk me through this: Hive mind over here says it's a hive mind over there, and I shouldn't have a differing opinion?

[Uncle Jam's Army]

In plain English, I guess. I have no desire to be a cool kid on any internet forum. It simply isn't possible, as hanging out on web forums is inherently uncool. See where I'm going with this? The coolest web forum is still a web forum.

Now, sometimes I may be too clever, or honest to the point of being blunt; but, hey, that's just my charm. Any offense you're taking to something I've said is simply that, offense you're taking. Take it. I'm not hurt by it. I could be overly cautious in the way I write, but I'd still have no control over how it's read. So, I'm not going to worry about it. Faith in humanity and all that jazz.

Edit: Walk me through this: Hive mind over here says it's a hive mind over there, and I shouldn't have a differing opinion?

Nobody is telling you what to do or think, and you obviously don't spend much time here. But if you're equating this forum to that one, well you just don't have a very good perspective on things.

And that whole business about lacking accountability for what you write, well that's just rubbish.

[pbarry]

Here's a thread on VS discussing the "real name" issue: http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/seems-likely-will-my-last-post-here-39335.html

Go to page three to read RS' post.

[rounder]

As a serotta fan and also a fan of others who build custom frames, I do not have a problem with VS asking that posters indicate who they are when visiting a framebuilders forum. It sounds like it now requires the posters to announce who they are before they could, possibly, smear the builders unjustifiably over non-real frame building issues.

On the other hand, it could be important to know who is heaping praise on a builder where, maybe, the praise is not justified.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Exactly. If we didn't love you, we wouldn't give you a hard time. :)

Plus 1. Nothing says I love you like breaking balls. At least in my small world.

[Peter P.]

Go to the 'Frame Forum' and look for the post about 8 down from the top that's locked.

That's the thread where Richard complains about the anonymous poster. I want to see the thread(s) where the abuse was directed at Richard.


Thanks.

[nighthawk]

That's the thread where Richard complains about the anonymous poster. I want to see the thread(s) where the abuse was directed at Richard.


Thanks.

If I read correctly, Richard's blog post was not referencing a VSalon member, but some anonymous cyber-bully, nonetheless.

His clarification on the matter is post #50 in the thread:
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/seems-likely-will-my-last-post-here-39335-3.html#post652862

[Peter P.]

If I read correctly, Richard's blog post was not referencing a VSalon member, but some anonymous cyber-bully, nonetheless.

His clarification on the matter is post #50 in the thread:
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/seems-likely-will-my-last-post-here-39335-3.html#post652862

Thanks. Richard was kind enough to e-mail me with an explanation.

[CNY rider]

Now, sometimes I may be too clever, or honest to the point of being blunt; but, hey, that's just my charm.

I would say you vastly over-estimate both your cleverness and your charm.
But it plays well with a certain element across the hall so by all means carry on and continue earning their adulation.

[palincss]

I had the same issues logging in even though my screen name is already real name.

The impetus for the "real name" requirement was a post by Richard Sachs where he complained he'd had enough of some anonymous poster giving him some grief, presumably on a V-Salon sub forum. I figured I wouldn't get a direct answer if I posted there so I'll ask here: Does anyone know specifically the threads or posts that were in question? I'd like to read them myself. I tried searching the forum but nothing was apparent. Perhaps the posts were deleted by the moderators?

Here's the thread where Fred Blasdel got banned: http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f10/getting-off-my-chest-atmo-39258.html

As I read it, they instituted a real-names-must-be-visible policy on the frambuilders sub-forum some time ago. Not sure what the issues were, and I've never visited that sub-forum, so I can't help with backstory: I went looking to see what happened with Fred. He and Richard Sachs got into it, with Fred trying to discuss pseudo-anonymity and Richard never making it clear that he expected obedience and a Yes Sir! with no backtalk, until finally he banned Fred.

There was some subsequent discussion about "What happened to Fred?" and there was also some mention -- nothing very clear in the way of a policy change announcement -- of extending the names policy across the entire forum. Next day, there's that message about updating your profile to include real name, and that ambiguous message that it's going to be your login name.

I say "ambiguous" because obviously one can still log in with the "handle" established earlier, and no announcement has been made that user names are going to be changed; furthermore, real name isn't visible in a posting unless you specifically add it as a signature (and it took me 10 min to figure out how to make that happen!). However, when you go to a user's profile page the real name is visible, and the policy is still in effect that postings to the framebuilders' sub-forum need to have the real name visible, either as a user name or as a signature.

[tigoat]

I have not read all the posts, but how are they going to verify the real name of a person without some form of personal ID. Might as well make it a cycle club so members can be identified positively.

[wasfast]

Josh posted a retraction of the policy just a few minutes ago:
"Ahh the internet, it's complicated. Suffice to say we locked arms and decided that less hiding, less trolling and more real conversations is a desirable outcome. How to achieve that is a pickle.

We had hoped that requiring everyone to update their profile field with a real name, keep your screen name, would achieve that goal. Instead, it is more complicated, nuanced and not a solution.

Frankly, y'all voted and this is not the way to get where we want to go.

I've returned the Forum registration rules back to the way they were.
A note to everyone who wastes time here, thank you.

Peace, Josh"

[oldpotatoe]

I guess I'm done over there!

Been done for a while. rec.bikes.tech was only a little worse, just a little..adios to both.

[rugbysecondrow]

Here is the gist, frame builders gather there, discuss things. Folks like me can go "hang out" with them and ask questions and participate with them. If framebuilders get pissed and leave because of harassment or flaming threads, then so too will the folks who want to "hang out" with the framebuilders, and you have no forum. Builders drive the traffic and the fan base.

It just goes back to the question, What is the purpose of that forum? In that context, using names makes perfect sense because the forum is a driver for business and relationships, it is not a forum to exchange ideas. Keep the industry people happy, because without them there is no forum.

If you want to hang out with frame builders and those folks, and they want you to use your name, the so be it.

[jr59]

Been done for a while. rec.bikes.tech was only a little worse, just a little..adios to both.

I'm slow!

In fact, as my last act over there, I just sent Josh a PM asking to delete my acc, and if possible to delete all of my >500 or so posts. I'm WAY done with them. No worries though, I didn't let the door hit me where the lord split me on the way out!

[Birddog]

The largest cultural menace in America is the conformity of the intellectual cliques which, in education as well as the arts, are out to impose upon the nation their modish fads and fallacies, and have nearly succeeded in doing so.

I am obliged to confess I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University.

William F Buckley's quotes seem apropos to the issue being discussed. The above is why I rarely ever wandered over there, it's probably been 9 months since I viewed from the hall and then it was through a link from here. NTAGAS

[palincss]

Here's the latest on the subject:


Re: It seems likely this will be my last post here ...

Ahh the internet, it's complicated. Suffice to say we locked arms and decided that less hiding, less trolling and more real conversations is a desirable outcome. How to achieve that is a pickle.

We had hoped that requiring everyone to update their profile field with a real name, keep your screen name, would achieve that goal. Instead, it is more complicated, nuanced and not a solution.

Frankly, y'all voted and this is not the way to get where we want to go.

I've returned the Forum registration rules back to the way they were.

A note to everyone who wastes time here, thank you.

Peace, Josh

- http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/seems-likely-will-my-last-post-here-39335-4.html#post652925

[CunegoFan]

I did not think they could seal the echo chamber even tighter over there. I guess I was wrong.

[CNY rider]

Here is the gist, frame builders gather there, discuss things. Folks like me can go "hang out" with them and ask questions and participate with them. If framebuilders get pissed and leave because of harassment or flaming threads, then so too will the folks who want to "hang out" with the framebuilders, and you have no forum. Builders drive the traffic and the fan base.

It just goes back to the question, What is the purpose of that forum? In that context, using names makes perfect sense because the forum is a driver for business and relationships, it is not a forum to exchange ideas. Keep the industry people happy, because without them there is no forum.

If you want to hang out with frame builders and those folks, and they want you to use your name, the so be it.

I hear you but I don't think there has been any growth in the framebuilders and industry people posting there.
Rather the opposite.
It's a tight circle jerk (echo chamber perhaps more family friendly term) and the circle grows ever smaller.

[bcgav]

I think they realized they were going to lose a lot of honest people who didn't want to use their real names, and with no way of verifying what people entered as their real name, it didn't address the reason for creating the new policy in the first place.

[abalone]

Here's the thread where Fred Blasdel got banned: http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f10/getting-off-my-chest-atmo-39258.html

As I read it, they instituted a real-names-must-be-visible policy on the frambuilders sub-forum some time ago. Not sure what the issues were, and I've never visited that sub-forum, so I can't help with backstory: I went looking to see what happened with Fred. He and Richard Sachs got into it, with Fred trying to discuss pseudo-anonymity and Richard never making it clear that he expected obedience and a Yes Sir! with no backtalk, until finally he banned Fred.

There was some subsequent discussion about "What happened to Fred?" and there was also some mention -- nothing very clear in the way of a policy change announcement -- of extending the names policy across the entire forum. Next day, there's that message about updating your profile to include real name, and that ambiguous message that it's going to be your login name.

I say "ambiguous" because obviously one can still log in with the "handle" established earlier, and no announcement has been made that user names are going to be changed; furthermore, real name isn't visible in a posting unless you specifically add it as a signature (and it took me 10 min to figure out how to make that happen!). However, when you go to a user's profile page the real name is visible, and the policy is still in effect that postings to the framebuilders' sub-forum need to have the real name visible, either as a user name or as a signature.



Wow. Thanks for the posting the link that led to the banning of VSalon user Blasdelf on that forum. I am going to be very straightforward with this. If that thread is any indication, at all, of why Blasdelf was banned, that is some weak excuses on the part of the VSalon mods enforcing their so-called rules. I didn't read Blasdelf insulting other users. If anything, he was the recipient of more insult and abuse directed at him than anything else. He was certainly blunt and critical of the new system of rules there, but did he write anything with any profanity, make any physical threats to anyone, threaten anyone in any way? No, he did not. That thread further illustrates to me that VSalon really is not tolerant of a dissenting opinion.

After years of contributing valuable information to that forum, he was summarily dismissed and banned on the basis of THAT thread? Give me a break! What further gets my gall is when other VSalon users came to Blasdelf's defense in another thread, that thread was immediately locked. That ALSO is not evidence of VSalon being welcoming to any type of dissenting opinion.

[ergott]

That ALSO is not evidence of VSalon being welcoming to any type of dissenting opinion.

Apparently this is an offense worthy of banning as well.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fast-bikes-discuss-38688-5.html#post637878

[fuzzalow]

I hear you but I don't think there has been any growth in the framebuilders and industry people posting there.
Rather the opposite.
It's a tight circle jerk (echo chamber perhaps more family friendly term) and the circle grows ever smaller.

An ever tighter circle of jerk, indeed. One that has the enviable characteristic of its membership elite that during their circle of jerk ritual, at the very heightened moment of consummation, each calls out his own name!

Figuratively speaking, of course.

[CunegoFan]

Apparently this is an offense worthy of banning as well.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fast-bikes-discuss-38688-5.html#post637878

Wow. What a trainwreck of a thread. All the regulars seem to be competing for the title of King D-Bag.

[93legendti]

Apparently this is an offense worthy of banning as well.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fast-bikes-discuss-38688-5.html#post637878

SteveP...miss that guy's warmth and meaningful contributions...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[TMB]

And by the way. Your activity and comments here, are being monitored....

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/seems-likely-will-my-last-post-here-39335-6.html#post652991


Post #108.

[palincss]

SteveP...miss that guy's warmth and meaningful contributions...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes, there indeed have been some moderators over there who seemed to be part of this crew:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/Sopranos_ep211b.jpg

[jr59]

And by the way. Your activity and comments here, are being monitored....

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/seems-likely-will-my-last-post-here-39335-6.html#post652991


Post #108.

I hope it is. Maybe they will understand that there are more things/opinions out there other than their kool kids stuff......errrr....I somewhat doubt this but I will hold out hope.

[xeladragon]

Apparently this is an offense worthy of banning as well.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fast-bikes-discuss-38688-5.html#post637878

Didn't know you were banned until it was somewhat publicly revealed in one of Lionel's threads. That's a shame. Glad you're still contributing here at least.

[abalone]

Apparently this is an offense worthy of banning as well.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fast-bikes-discuss-38688-5.html#post637878


What the ....?! Somebody was banned for THAT? Geez. What a crock. It would appear that this type of cool kids behavior is not limited to one moderator over there.

[dancinkozmo]

Yes, there indeed have been some moderators over there who seemed to be part of this crew:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/Sopranos_ep211b.jpg

i'd say more like this crew...

http://assets.forexlive.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/three_stooges.jpg

[Hank Scorpio]

Go to the 'Frame Forum' and look for the post about 8 down from the top that's locked.

Curt Goodrich is the third post on that thread regarding internet anonymity and responsibility??!? Seriously?

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Maybe some of the cool kids should spend less time commenting/moderating/changing rules/banning/watching what we say here and posting it there/etc. and shorten those obscenely long wait times by actually building my damn grail frameset, this decade!

[Keith A]

I guess that guy is Josh, but in my observations he his a great guy and a great rider. Running a forum is not easy and overall he does an excellent job.
...
JeffTotally agree! I've met Josh in person, ridden with him at DBRK's gatherings, consulted with him on forum stuff in the past and he as been more than helpful. Running a forum isn't easy and no matter what you do, you can't please everyone. VS was created a number of years ago when there was some problems/issues on the Serotta forum (which became The Paceline). They have their own vibe, which is different than here -- and that is just fine.

So let's not spend too much time and energy dissecting what is going on over at the VS.

[abalone]

Maybe some of the cool kids should spend less time commenting/moderating/changing rules/banning/watching what we say here and posting it there/etc. and shorten those obscenely long wait times by actually building my damn grail frameset, this decade!



I suspect that alot of the builders and their supporters over there are generally protective of each other despite evidence of some of their colleagues really doing their customers wrong. And they want to use the real names of some of these complainers to out them publicly.

There is a tit-for-tat argument going on over their now with one of the cool kids attacking a poster who is defending Blasdelf. Some other users are now jumping in and basically telling this user to shut up and stop posting over here. Its more example of them wanting to control the message on their own forum where their supporters can come in and shout down dissenting opinion.

[mgm777]

Apparently this is an offense worthy of banning as well.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fast-bikes-discuss-38688-5.html#post637878

Eric,

Wow! You were banned for that post? Man, I am disappointed, but not surprised. I expected more from SteveP. Have lost a lot of respect. I wonder if the folks over there who are subtly trying to market their brands, frames, apparel, services and such realize their online personas are negatively impacting future business opportunities. Even though a few of them make, or have made, decent products, I for one, will never buy nor support any endeavor by a few of them. Unfortunately, I just can't disassociate the online snark and narcissism of the proprietor from the product. I have met a few of those folks live, at various venues like NAHBS, and they appear to be polite, normal, kind folks. However, give them a keyboard, and their whole persona changes for the worst.

Michael

[93legendti]

Yes, there indeed have been some moderators over there who seemed to be part of this crew:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/Sopranos_ep211b.jpg

Love it.

[93legendti]

didn't know you were banned until it was somewhat publicly revealed in one of lionel's threads. That's a shame. Glad you're still contributing here at least.

+1

[Cicli]

Yes, there indeed have been some moderators over there who seemed to be part of this crew:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/Sopranos_ep211b.jpg

The sign in the backround is. Very accurate.

I have only lurked over there. I would be embarased to play in that sandbox. There are other cycling forums in the same boat. Circling the drain.

[witcombusa]

If you don't like what's going on in their sand box, don't play there.

Simple enough.

[Cicli]

If you don't like what's going on in their sand box, don't play there.

Simple enough.

I dont.

[abalone]

There is a thread on Velocipede Salon entitled "Across the hall?" which is similar to this thread here. Guess how many replies they had before their mods locked it? Which forum do you think is more unwelcoming of dissenting opinion?

Velocipede Salon thread "Across the Hall" - 3 posts before being locked... Link here - http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/across-hall-39327.html
Paceline thread "OT: Anybody else getting this message across the hall?" - currently 100+ posts.

The VSalon builders, supporters, and moderators have created an atmosphere whereby there can be no opposing view. If there are, those individuals are shouted down, and eventually banned. They want to advertise that they are welcoming of dissenting opinion. They want to show that they are truly transparent. The evidence suggest otherwise. The evidence shows that they don't welcome dissenting opinion by their banning of people, and they don't want to show true transparency of why these people were banned. They will further lock discussion of these topics to keep things non-transparent. Finally, they tell the users who don't agree to get off their playground, all the while still advertising that they are welcoming of dissenting opinion.

[Keith A]

If you don't like what's going on in their sand box, don't play there.

Simple enough.Agreed...and I don't see much point in continuing a discussion here about what takes place over there.

[texbike]

Eric,

I wonder if the folks over there who are subtly trying to market their brands, frames, apparel, services and such realize their online personas are negatively impacting future business opportunities. Even though a few of them make, or have made, decent products, I for one, will never buy nor support any endeavor by a few of them. Unfortunately, I just can't disassociate the online snark and narcissism of the proprietor from the product.

Agreed.

Bottom line is this. Don't support ***holes. Life is too short to deal with jerks. There are WAY too many talented builders today that aren't part of the inner circle that you could support instead. Send the circle a message that it's not cool to be a condescending prick by doing business with builders that are decent, down-to-earth artisans. It's time that more of these guys get our love than those that have built an over-hyped reputation developed with a scarcity marketing strategy.

In case you're not familiar with scarcity marketing, take a look at this NPR feature about Russian River Brewing's Pliny the Elder: www.marketplace.org/topics/business/pliny-elder-case-study-scarcity-marketing . Does it sound like any builders you know? I remember seeing a builder's post on Vsalon where they were bragging about working less and making more money than they ever had as a builder. Hmmm. Good for them.

Texbike

[TMB]

All the more reason to support guys like Carl Strong, Chris deKerf and Dave Kirk

[BumbleBeeDave]

I don't think it would be workable to have real names only because it would have to be applied fairly--which would mean applying it to moderators as well. That would mean posting my real name. While many of you know it already, I have had one major incident of offline harassment from a forum member and I don't have a lot of desire to make it easier for people.

As a member here since 2001--and a mod since 2008--I've always wanted to hang out in, then help run, what I call a "classy joint." It's your neighborhood cycling tavern where you can always find somebody to talk with 24/7/365 about cycling, or about something else if that floats your boat.

It can get a bit loud at times, but you can always be sure that it's a respectable place you could bring your family if you wanted to. A place you could be sure that if one of your kids had to come in here alone, the regulars would make sure they did OK, rather than tearing them down. A place here if some newbie walks in, they will be welcome and treated with respect. A place where there may be disagreements, but where they remain civil,with mutual respect, and with everybody agreeing that the debate should be about the issue, not the the people involved or their character or about whether they ride the "right" kind of bike.

I think the other mods feel the same way, and we generally achieve that goal. But we couldn't achieve that goal without all of you who contribute as members. I don't really hang out "over there." Don't have the time or the inclination. There's plenty of good stuff here to keep me busy. It's surprising to me to hear in this thread about some of the people who have been banned over there, because I don't recall any of them ever being a problem over here. To me that may be the most telling takeaway from all of this.

BBD

There is a thread on Velocipede Salon entitled "Across the hall?" which is similar to this thread here. Guess how many replies they had before their mods locked it? Which forum do you think is more unwelcoming of dissenting opinion?

Velocipede Salon thread "Across the Hall" - 3 posts before being locked... Link here - http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/across-hall-39327.html
Paceline thread "OT: Anybody else getting this message across the hall?" - currently 100+ posts.

The VSalon builders, supporters, and moderators have created an atmosphere whereby there can be no opposing view. If there are, those individuals are shouted down, and eventually banned. They want to advertise that they are welcoming of dissenting opinion. They want to show that they are truly transparent. The evidence suggest otherwise. The evidence shows that they don't welcome dissenting opinion by their banning of people, and they don't want to show true transparency of why these people were banned. They will further lock discussion of these topics to keep things non-transparent. Finally, they tell the users who don't agree to get off their playground, all the while still advertising that they are welcoming of dissenting opinion.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

all the more reason to support guys like carl strong, chris dekerf and dave kirk

+1000

[seanile]

There is a thread on Velocipede Salon entitled "Across the hall?" which is similar to this thread here. Guess how many replies they had before their mods locked it? Which forum do you think is more unwelcoming of dissenting opinion?

Velocipede Salon thread "Across the Hall" - 3 posts before being locked... Link here - http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/across-hall-39327.html
Paceline thread "OT: Anybody else getting this message across the hall?" - currently 100+ posts.not an accurate comparison. their question was answered in full and there was nothing left to contribute.

[Joachim]

A group of people found a place to go online power tripping with their own club house. As long as they don't affect me, go at it. Maybe it makes up for something lacking in real life. Sigmund Freud would've had a blast analyzing them.

[abalone]

not an accurate comparison. their question was answered in full and there was nothing left to contribute.


There wasn't a question, it was a discussion that was locked after 3 replies. If there was a policy to lock every single thread at VSalon equivalently in the same manner, then the vast majority would be locked shutting down all discussion. The truth is that thread, and others, were locked because the mods didn't want discussion on it. And upon further review, the same mod that locked THAT thread also was involved in banning ergott also. Both bad moderator decisions based on the pat-on-the-back, yes-sir, system in place at the V.

[blasdelf]

An ever tighter circle of jerk, indeed. One that has the enviable characteristic of its membership elite that during their circle of jerk ritual, at the very heightened moment of consummation, each calls out his own name!

Figuratively speaking, of course.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/acid-kicks-in.gif

better poetry than any of those wordsalad-istas have ever written

[palincss]

As a member here since 2001--and a mod since 2008--I've always wanted to hang out in, then help run, what I call a "classy joint." It's your neighborhood cycling tavern where you can always find somebody to talk with 24/7/365 about cycling, or about something else if that floats your boat.

It can get a bit loud at times, but you can always be sure that it's a respectable place you could bring your family if you wanted to. A place you could be sure that if one of your kids had to come in here alone, the regulars would make sure they did OK, rather than tearing them down. A place here if some newbie walks in, they will be welcome and treated with respect. A place where there may be disagreements, but where they remain civil,with mutual respect, and with everybody agreeing that the debate should be about the issue, not the the people involved or their character or about whether they ride the "right" kind of bike.

I think the other mods feel the same way, and we generally achieve that goal. But we couldn't achieve that goal without all of you who contribute as members.

You've certainly said it for me, Dave. Hard to see how it could have been said better.

[simonov]

The question was pretty clear that the OP wanted to know what people meant by the phrase, "Across the hall." It was answered in the second post. What else would there have been to discuss?

[Jeff Borisch]

There wasn't a question, it was a discussion that was locked after 3 replies. If there was a policy to lock every single thread at VSalon equivalently in the same manner, then the vast majority would be locked shutting down all discussion. The truth is that thread, and others, were locked because the mods didn't want discussion on it. And upon further review, the same mod that locked THAT thread also was involved in banning ergott also. Both bad moderator decisions based on the pat-on-the-back, yes-sir, system in place at the V.

seanile is right. It was a simple question that got a simple answer. I think it was closed to keep it from devolving into something awful...

Which sort of proves your point about some of the discussion that happens.

[learningtoride]

I don't think it would be workable to have real names only because it would have to be applied fairly--which would mean applying it to moderators as well. That would mean posting my real name. While many of you know it already, I have had one major incident of offline harassment from a forum member and I don't have a lot of desire to make it easier for people.

As a member here since 2001--and a mod since 2008--I've always wanted to hang out in, then help run, what I call a "classy joint." It's your neighborhood cycling tavern where you can always find somebody to talk with 24/7/365 about cycling, or about something else if that floats your boat.

It can get a bit loud at times, but you can always be sure that it's a respectable place you could bring your family if you wanted to. A place you could be sure that if one of your kids had to come in here alone, the regulars would make sure they did OK, rather than tearing them down. A place here if some newbie walks in, they will be welcome and treated with respect. A place where there may be disagreements, but where they remain civil,with mutual respect, and with everybody agreeing that the debate should be about the issue, not the the people involved or their character or about whether they ride the "right" kind of bike.

I think the other mods feel the same way, and we generally achieve that goal. But we couldn't achieve that goal without all of you who contribute as members. I don't really hang out "over there." Don't have the time or the inclination. There's plenty of good stuff here to keep me busy. It's surprising to me to hear in this thread about some of the people who have been banned over there, because I don't recall any of them ever being a problem over here. To me that may be the most telling takeaway from all of this.

BBD

Well, I haven't been very active in a while here, sometimes being more of a cycling enthusiast than in a position of an actual regular rider I tend to keep quiet, but as I had some down time today, and since I (who am very real and really named Nicki lol) I think of the folks I have interacted with via the forum and believe that this community is REAL people, internet or not. So, since I have carried many of you in my thoughts during my "real life" I came by to have a cup of coffee and see how the old campy arguments have been going lol. And I see THIS- I have visited the other mentioned forum on occasion over the years, not often though, the main reason for that is that as my handle indicates I am always feeling rather new- and found that the other mentioned forum was not a very warm place. Here I was taken under each of your wings so to speak. The point I think best made for the days event in cycling forum worlds is made best by BBD- THIS community of folks has been given a tavern where everybody knows our names. THIS community allows us the freedom to disagree with its government and has followed the golden rule that as long as we express our points in a respectful of each other as people kind of way, our opinions are taken into consideration by the government lol- I personally feel the best way to set example to other forum governments is stop giving their politics so much of the energy and attention and lead the way in celebrating what we have here. If there is a bad juju between them, and us, well, their loss. We have great mods who brought us from the old forum and made us all a part of building what we have now and I for one love being able to come back, see all the familiar faces(names) and personalities and know we are real people, to each one another and to the community our mods have helped us maintain! So let's throw mud in the eyes of those who haven't welcomed the same vibe we have by just being our awesome selves and sharing a virtual ride! Let them have their drama, and we ll have ours... on that note, how's everyone feel about Lance today?? lol :p
Thanks to each of you for enriching my life and to the mods for giving me a place thats warm to learn and grow!
Luvs to all- Nicki

[1centaur]

There were some excellent posts on good reasons for internet anonymity over there, but I feel compelled to be repetitive.

There can be no doubt that the direction of society in the last few years has been greater scrutiny of minutia to make a superficially emotionally compelling case. Just as political operatives scour everything ever said publicly by opposing candidates to create a negative emotional impression by repeating it, maybe out of context, and using odious phrases like "there have been questions about" [fill in name of opponent and some negative spin] ad nauseum until the news cycle moves on, so anyone with any agenda against someone can Google people and look for anything plausibly spinnable as objectionable.

Imagine if every conversation you ever had was recorded for posterity and was instantly searchable by anyone looking for a reason to make you look bad. And it's not necessary even for someone to fairly and honestly pick out something you have said, they can unfairly interpret anything you ever said through their own warped filter. If every time you opened your mouth, from ages 20-60, and every time you started typing thoughts out, you had to imagine how you could unfairly be interpreted sometime in the future, how would that change your communication style? I would suggest it would cramp your style. I have seen ridiculous interpretations of my words on this forum, and even when I emphasized what I meant so they could see it filtered correctly I was effectively told I was lying or not understanding my own sentiments. There is simply no way around the reality that other people interpret language and intent very differently sometimes, and those people are being honest within their own framework, not even acting cynically, which is a whole 'nother avenue of potential harm.

The folks who are most strident about real name use in forums are, as far as I can tell, people who massively value their own authenticity in real life every day AND have no concept of being in a position where their words will be used against them in a meaningful way (luckily they don't live in China). I am one of the most honest, straightforward people I have ever met, but I am in a business where regulators think people like me are trying to pull the wool over investors' eyes and they have the ability to destroy careers, wreck personal balance sheets and reap fines from employers if they imagine they have a credible argument. I have conversations with our legal department all the time about what we can say and how we can say it, and the overwhelming theme is how our words could be spun by lawyers to be misleading to people who don't know anything; the focus is not on the truth as we know it. That thinking gets into every sentence I ever write to anyone. And so the subtlety of impressions and possibilities that actually might illuminate a complex subject get buried by fear of being misconstrued. At some level, that same problem accompanies the real name movement on forums.

Now, I am no fan of anonymous lies and slander on the Net, but if I have to choose losing the unvarnished truth from many or the blatant lies from a few I will keep the truth and deal with the lies with counterinformation and reputation. Building a reputation even anonymously is not that hard - we learn to see who people are from their words over time.

[christian]

Too Tall thankfully reversed the policy.

Given the info I've posted here and there in every post, it'd be less than 10 seconds of Googling for any of you to figure out who I am. But that doesn't mean I want the first hit of a Google search on my real name to be a cycling forum...

[makoti]

Too Tall thankfully reversed the policy.

Given the info I've posted here and there in every post, it'd be less than 10 seconds of Googling for any of you to figure out who I am. But that doesn't mean I want the first hit of a Google search on my real name to be a cycling forum...

Does this mean I don't have to be Abner Doodlesboten any longer?

[Burnette]

Wow, ergott, did not know you were banned. Looking at the thread (I participated in that thread too and somehow missed the eye of the kids with the stick) that was truly unwarranted.
Velocipede Salon suffers from a sense of self grandeur, it is ran by a small group who happen to be very anti social and the attempts to control the message and the censoring of anything counter to a just few people’s ideas is just a shame and quizzically funny. Why funny? Because VSalon has always been used as a marketing tool, I got that early and didn’t/don’t care, but if you want to push your wares, being oppressive and limiting your audience is totally counter to your mission. I mean, these guys sell bikes to the “public” don’t they? They should have some idea that this behavior is truly damaging. Make no mistake, this has cost some builders out there some business. And it shouldn’t have.
I was drawn to VSalon by the frame builders through Yahoo. After joining and discovering the over the top self promotion and harsh treatment of forum members by a few, I thought it was perpetrated by all the builders there. I later found out that it was just a few and the rest were the mods and what I call trolls. I still stay for the builders, FNL and some great forum members.
It has reached a point today now to where I don’t feel comfortable posting there. They have totally stifled conversation. You don’t berate good people in a thread with group tactics, condescension and banishment without other good people noticing and rejecting everything you stand for. If I were selling there, I would have to reeavaluate the logic of associating my name with that behavoir. Without clear distinction, some will think innocent builders are part of the 'bad' few and rethink forking over four figures for a frame.
And I am disappointed at it all. For these few have separated me from some good forum members (I have so enjoyed all of the “ride report” threads and anything Lionel does) and from the builders who brought me there. I think I’ll make some T-Shirts that say “Free My Fave Builders And Anonymous Associates”. Those are the ones who make that site enjoyable, not the few who wrecked it.
None of us ever went there for them.
I hope for the best outcome, they must change though. Get somebody else to moderate, break the mean spirited friendship ring, seriously, and truly open the forum like the header states (Feel free to talk about anything and everything on this board). I can take the self promotion (sometimes artfully done, Ha!) and the trolls (as long as I can answer them back in kind), the backroom bad boys is a deal breaker though. Change it. The potential for VSalon is still very high, control this damage. I’ll be there every Friday and lurk through the week, hope to be back and sharing someday.
Thank you Paceline members for keeping this place up. I enjoy the atmosphere here and will spend more time reading and contributing.
Wayne Burnette

[old fat man]

Others have said it too, I think Josh is generally a good guy, and given the nature of running an active forum "for fun" I'm not surprised that he has a number of moderators at his employ. Unfortunately, there are two or three moderators that seem to think their titles of secretary also give them dictatorial authority.

I had the same issues logging in even though my screen name is already real name.

The impetus for the "real name" requirement was a post by Richard Sachs where he complained he'd had enough of some anonymous poster giving him some grief, presumably on a V-Salon sub forum. I figured I wouldn't get a direct answer if I posted there so I'll ask here: Does anyone know specifically the threads or posts that were in question? I'd like to read them myself. I tried searching the forum but nothing was apparent. Perhaps the posts were deleted by the moderators?

Anyone else see the irony in how this man silences his critics by banning them?

Apparently this is an offense worthy of banning as well.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fast-bikes-discuss-38688-5.html#post637878

Ergott, I was banned for things I didn't even say on vsalon! No warning, just banned one day. This is a nicer place to be anyway. No circle jerking and inflated egos here.

[AngryScientist]

good discussion folks.

i dont think we need to shut this one down, but i also think all that needs to be said has been. the rules over there are reverted back to the previous iteration. let's let this one drift off, eh?

[professerr]

Apparently this is an offense worthy of banning as well.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fast-bikes-discuss-38688-5.html#post637878

That thread about the Noah Fast was a total crack up on so many levels.

As for your banishment therein and the numerous thread locks of most anything critical, see the several misappropriations by Sachs of the “Bodies on the Gears” speech by an icon of (deliciously) the Free Speech Movement, Mario Salvo. One of a half dozen instances, at least, used there to express a “higher calling,” see post #11: http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/elephant-room-728.html

I get the motivations (albeit misguided, imo) they have to run the place is run the way they do, but I’m pretty sure my friends from Berkeley, a couple who were actually there at Sproul Hall, would be saddened by the crassness.

[93legendti]

The argument that real names or full disclosure or whatever they want to call it makes a forum better is utter nonsense.

Forums and social media sites, for a reason, enable members to choose their comfort level of personal contact/disclosure - and that has allowed greater inclusion and "diversity".

Certain builders whom I respect, when faced with online criticism, asked for real names. That has zero to do with trusting relations, bike rides or attracting good merchants.

Given the stated attitude of the Mods in that thread, they want a smaller, compliant community. If not, they are confused or not being honest. Either way, I prefer the atmosphere here.

"This change raises the level of discourse at the forum and with time will create more trusting relations, more bike rides and more of what good merchants seek in a community of like minded people."

[OtayBW]

One of a half dozen instances, at least, used there to express a “higher calling,” see post #11: http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/elephant-room-728.html
Wow.

[slidey]

Good grief! That post you referred to reeks of delusion - a little scary, to me.

As for your banishment therein and the numerous thread locks of most anything critical, see the several misappropriations by Sachs of the “Bodies on the Gears” speech by an icon of (deliciously) the Free Speech Movement, Mario Salvo. One of a half dozen instances, at least, used there to express a “higher calling,” see post #11: http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/elephant-room-728.html

[soulspinner]

all the more reason to support guys like carl strong, chris dekerf and dave kirk

+1

[Dead Man]

What IS "atmo?"

[oldpotatoe]

What IS "atmo?"

Same as IMHO, only more snarky, IMHO.

[ergott]

Either Grant is misinformed or someone is lying to me.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/seems-likely-will-my-last-post-here-39335-6.html#post652991

[Keith A]

What IS "atmo?"According To My Opinion.

[nahtnoj]

I don't visit the general discussion here very often anymore. No harm no foul. But I saw mention of a thread on VS.

11 pages of butt hurt about decisions a forum you collectively deride and purport not to care about?

A little silly, no?

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Either Grant is misinformed or someone is lying to me.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/seems-likely-will-my-last-post-here-39335-6.html#post652991

He is misinformed, in your case, too, it would appear. Josh did not know of my banning and it took him several days to "get to the bottom of it." I still was never told why I was banned, and Josh just simply told me to let it go.

For anyone to claim that Josh knows and approves of every ban before it happens is an outright lie.

[Keith A]

I've been avoiding closing this thread, but I think it has served its purpose and I sense that this is going downhill and so I'm closing this discussion.