Why?! (rant)

[rw229]

There have been a lot tragic auto/cyclist deaths. There are bad/distracted drivers, but based on a recent experience, I need to vent...

I'm running a quick errand and pull out of the store on to the road and then need to make a quick left. The road is clear, my light is green. I notice three cyclists at the cross street. (they have red) Just as I start to turn left, they jump on the pedals. I abort my turn and hit the brakes.

I wave my arm and curse, but of course they don't notice and continue on their path.

W-T-F! If I didn't have my kid in the car, I would have whipped a U, chased them down and had words.

I'm a cyclist and at that moment I hated cyclists. Not only for what just happened (putting themselves and possibly me in danger), but the thought of how many times that happens and the potential of me becoming a victim to a driver who disrespects/hates cyclists due to the actions of these types of clowns.

[Louis]

Unfortunately it isn't just drivers - plenty of cyclists are idiots too; and yes, they make it worse for the rest of us.

[Ken Robb]

There are many fools on the road.

[Don49]

"We have met the enemy, and they are us"

We've all seen it, lycra clad idiots, and self-righteous at that.

[fuzzalow]

Without having been there to see the scene, it makes it impossible to say with certainty - the traffic picture can change in only 1 or 2 seconds to be different.

I take it you, the driver, did not signal your left turn nor was there a left-turn-only lane because you would have been held back by the red arrow. You exited the driveway at the store and rapidly cut across 2 lanes to get to the left lane quickly enough to make your left turn. Have I got this right?

Here's the thing: When you are in the driveway exiting the store, you are not part of the traffic situation. As such, the cyclists have no way to know you want to right-turn exit from the driveway and cut to the left lane to make a left turn that is, I'm guessing, maybe less than 50 meters from the driveway exit. And if you saw cyclists and didn't use your left turn signal as soon as you straightened the car from the right turn as precaution and a courtesy in telling them where you were headed, then shame on you.

Granted, cyclists shouldn't cut red lights. But if there was no traffic at the 4-way interchange where this occurred, well, they might cut through. Don't lie. As cyclists, we have all done it. And they can't know a motorist wants to make a quick right-left from out of a driveway from a store.

This took 5 minutes to write. It all happened in 2 or 3 seconds in real time. You have no right to be angry. As a cyclist, I would hope you would cut cyclists some slack simply because you know how vulnerable you are when you are them on the bike rather than you in your car.

[rw229]

I'll give you the benefit that I didn't include those details... left turn lane, left turn signal on, I have the green.

They jumped a red in to an active intersection on a very busy road. Regardless of what 'I' was doing, under what circumstances were there actions safe/OK? God forbid they would have to sit for a 90 second red light.

You can't seriously be defending them. If so, you might be a contributor to the car vs. bike hate.

Do you want to maintain that position or would you like to edit your post?




Without having been there to see the scene, it makes it impossible to say with certainty - the traffic picture can change in only 1 or 2 seconds to be different.

I take it you, the driver, did not signal your left turn nor was there a left-turn-only lane because you would have been held back by the red arrow. You exited the driveway at the store and rapidly cut across 2 lanes to get to the left lane quickly enough to make your left turn. Have I got this right?

Here's the thing: When you are in the driveway exiting the store, you are not part of the traffic situation. As such, the cyclists have no way to know you want to right-turn exit from the driveway and cut to the left lane to make a left turn that is, I'm guessing, maybe less than 50 meters from the driveway exit. And if you saw cyclists and didn't use your left turn signal as soon as you straightened the car from the right turn as precaution and a courtesy in telling them where you were headed, then shame on you.

Granted, cyclists shouldn't cut red lights. But if there was no traffic at the 4-way interchange where this occurred, well, they might cut through. Don't lie. As cyclists, we have all done it. And they can't know a motorist wants to make a quick right-left from out of a driveway from a store.

This took 5 minutes to write. It all happened in 2 or 3 seconds in real time. You have no right to be angry. As a cyclist, I would hope you would cut cyclists some slack simply because you know how vulnerable you are when you are them on the bike rather than you in your car.

[pdmtong]

I'll give you the benefit that I didn't include those details... left turn lane, left turn signal on, I have the green.

They jumped a red in to an active intersection on a very busy road. Regardless of what 'I' was doing, under what circumstances were there actions safe/OK? God forbid they would have to sit for a 90 second red light.

You can't seriously be defending them. If so, you might be a contributor to the car vs. bike hate.

Do you want to maintain that position or would you like to edit your post?

i don't read the post as a defense, only a plausible scenario in the absence of further facts which you have since provided. this is a discussion, not a one time shot to go all in with any and all comments.

with the added insight from you, cyclists clearly and absolutely making a bad name for the rest of us.

[rw229]

i don't read the post as a defense, only a plausible scenario in the absence of further facts which you have since provided. this is a discussion, not a one time shot to go all in with any and all comments.

The response was pretty assumptive and defensive. Regardless of details, the cyclists jumped a red to cross a busy road with active traffic. I call BS.

with the added insight from you, cyclists clearly and absolutely making a bad name for the rest of us.

Thank you. Many advocate for cyclists, yet our own pull crap like this to undermine the effort.

[Bob Ross]

I've been getting a lot of mileage lately from this quote that I saw on the New York Cycle Club's message board a few months back:

"The problem isn't cyclists; the problem is assholes."

[soulspinner]

I've been getting a lot of mileage lately from this quote that I saw on the New York Cycle Club's message board a few months back:

"The problem isn't cyclists; the problem is assholes."

:hello:

[oldpotatoe]

The response was pretty assumptive and defensive. Regardless of details, the cyclists jumped a red to cross a busy road with active traffic. I call BS.

Thank you. Many advocate for cyclists, yet our own pull crap like this to undermine the effort.

Agree. People in cars vote. Piss off enough of them and when the ballot initiative for some 'cycling friendly thing' comes up..don't be surprised if it doesn't pass.

[shovelhd]

I blame Strava.

[fuzzalow]

I'll give you the benefit that I didn't include those details... left turn lane, left turn signal on, I have the green.

Those were some very significant details to originally leave out.

They jumped a red in to an active intersection on a very busy road. Regardless of what 'I' was doing, under what circumstances were there actions safe/OK? God forbid they would have to sit for a 90 second red light.

Those were some very significant details to originally leave out.

Under these details, this makes what the cyclists did as both senseless, reckless and a bit suicidal.

Under these details, it makes you, as a driver, conducting an arguably very aggressive and possibly unsafe driving maneuver to:
exit a driveway from a store into very busy traffic
merge into a very busy traffic lane
rapidly change lanes left in a very busy traffic flow
make a left turn with an opening clearance against very busy oncoming traffic
All conducted in one rapid maneuver in the time it takes to catch oblivious, scofflaw cyclists who, as a threesome, decide to embark on an a red light crossing of a very busy interchange. But not busy enough that your car was able to get to them first in this active intersection with very busy traffic.
Afterwards which, in very busy traffic, you contemplate making a U-turn to pursue said outlaw cyclists to angrily vent your frustrations at their heinous disregard for their own safety and the damage to the public image of cyclists and the activity of bicycling.

If this are the circumstances for how this incident really happened, it is difficult not to find fault with the cyclists in this anecdote. If indeed this how it really happened.
You can't seriously be defending them. If so, you might be a contributor to the car vs. bike hate.

Do you want to maintain that position or would you like to edit your post?
You have amended the facts and circumstances in this anecdote to be completely different from your OP. Details are important.

You are projecting false motives as to my motives and position as to why I responded in the way I did. Stick to the facts, which were given by you as admittedly incomplete, rather than villianizing me as a cheap shot at winning an argument. I was discussing facts in a traffic scenario. You are getting defensive and responding on a level of personal insult.

No, I am not editing my post as it was a valid response to what you had originally posted. You have since revised all the facts to make yourself indisputably in the right and the cyclists as miscreants.

No problem. You win.

[cfox]

I've been getting a lot of mileage lately from this quote that I saw on the New York Cycle Club's message board a few months back:

"The problem isn't cyclists; the problem is assholes."

Unfortunately, our sport of cycling attracts to it an inordinate number of assholes.

[old fat man]

Those were some very significant details to originally leave out.



Those were some very significant details to originally leave out.

Under these details, this makes what the cyclists did as both senseless, reckless and a bit suicidal.

Under these details, it makes you, as a driver, conducting an arguably very aggressive and possibly unsafe driving maneuver to:
exit a driveway from a store into very busy traffic
merge into a very busy traffic lane
rapidly change lanes left in a very busy traffic flow
make a left turn with an opening clearance against very busy oncoming traffic
All conducted in one rapid maneuver in the time it takes to catch oblivious, scofflaw cyclists who, as a threesome, decide to embark on an a red light crossing of a very busy interchange. But not busy enough that your car was able to get to them first in this active intersection with very busy traffic.
Afterwards which, in very busy traffic, you contemplate making a U-turn to pursue said outlaw cyclists to angrily vent your frustrations at their heinous disregard for their own safety and the damage to the public image of cyclists and the activity of bicycling.

If this are the circumstances for how this incident really happened, it is difficult not to find fault with the cyclists in this anecdote. If indeed this how it really happened.

You have amended the facts and circumstances in this anecdote to be completely different from your OP. Details are important.

You are projecting false motives as to my motives and position as to why I responded in the way I did. Stick to the facts, which were given by you as admittedly incomplete, rather than villianizing me as a cheap shot at winning an argument. I was discussing facts in a traffic scenario. You are getting defensive and responding on a level of personal insult.

No, I am not editing my post as it was a valid response to what you had originally posted. You have since revised all the facts to make yourself indisputably in the right and the cyclists as miscreants.

No problem. You win.

:hello::hello::hello::hello::hello:

[zap]

, but the thought of how many times that happens and the potential of me becoming a victim to a driver who disrespects/hates cyclists due to the actions of these types of clowns.

Not going to get involved with the specifics of your road incident, but let me state this………

Every cyclists can start riding like an angel and obey every single motoring/cycling law (some which will put you the cyclists in greater danger) today and your chances of becoming a victim will remain the same one year from now.

[Tony]

W-T-F! If I didn't have my kid in the car, I would have whipped a U, chased them down and had words.
I'm a cyclist and at that moment I hated cyclists.

I would be careful, filled with hate (hard for me to understand) you may start a situation you regret.

Best to just "back it up" : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOczeIK6nRY&list=RDWOczeIK6nRY

[rw229]

No hate here, just disappointment.



I would be careful, filled with hate (hard for me to understand) you may start a situation you regret.

Best to just "back it up" : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOczeIK6nRY&list=RDWOczeIK6nRY

[FlashUNC]

Moral of the story is that jerks use all forms of transportation.

[Louis]

Agree. People in cars vote. Piss off enough of them and when the ballot initiative for some 'cycling friendly thing' comes up..don't be surprised if it doesn't pass.

Or worse yet, an outright ban of bikes on some roads - it's happened here in MO and in CO.

[fuzzalow]

It was never the intention to single out rw229 for his driving incident but I did intend for it to be a catalyst in asking exactly what he was posing as a question in opening his thread: Why? But the question was not directed at cyclists, it was directed at motorists. Because even when a cyclist gets behind the wheel they are no longer cyclists in mindset, they become motorists.

Why (and how) does a person behind the wheel of an automobile become enraged, hate-filled and outwardly aggressive towards almost any other person they encounter when behind the wheel? How is it drivers can be so utterly convinced of the righteousness of their actions when behind the wheel? How is that there is never any critical thought given in consideration or admission that there may have been error and culpability in their judgment or skills when behind the wheel? Can it even be acknowledged that there is a problem at all or shall it forever be the lame excuse that it is always someone else's fault?

These are difficult questions to ask. And it can be monumentally difficult to answer with any truth and honesty by anyone who dares turn the light of examination onto him or her self. But if there is any desire to improve first there must be acknowledged that there is a problem, however large or small it may be. Then, as said by Shakespeare, “To thine own self be true” and be honestly self-critical. And finally be secure that these questions and the uncomfortable answers they uncover need never be answered in public like some inquisition or public trial. The insights revealed are for each person's own use alone. Each motorist must find their own equilibrium.

Knowledge is power. Power is control. Control is not governed by emotion.

Driving a car, either on a public roadway or a racetrack, cannot be effectively and safely done when it is no longer a machine to be controlled but as a manifestation for emotion outburst. How many times is the middle finger given? “F__k you” yelled through a windshield? How often has someone driven mindlessly until their driving changed when somehow it turned personal? All these are actions driven by an irrational and inconsistent emotional state that has no place in the operation of a motor vehicle at anywhere or at anytime. And yet it happens all day, every day.

For me, I have no desire to be part of that kind of mindless, stupid crowd of motorists. I haven't given another motorist the finger in years – I am already thinking enough for the two of us out there on the road and most of the stupidity the other guy might have in mind is a possibility I have already got covered. I'm not gonna allow some nitwit to get me upset! Sometimes I am still surprised though. Amazingly stupid stuff even surprises me and I thought I had it down. Live and learn.

Maybe the OP wanted a supportive, like-minded, feel good thread to share and vent common dislike at a strawman, scofflaw cyclist. But that is far too easy and useless a result. And the question was asked “Why?” which is a difficult and loaded question that might get nowhere fast. But the difficult questions are the ones that are much more interesting and challenging to take a swing at. Are you up to it?

Sorry for the length of this post and thanks for reading. If even only a few of you give any thought at all to this topic, I look at that as progress. Cyclists are the right crowd to talk to about this kinda stuff, so if not here then where? One step at a time. "Tell me again Maximus, why are we here?".

[malcolm]

Stupidity and bad behavior/inconsiderate behavior are every where. I'll give you something seems to happen when people are enclosed in their cars. I think picking of the nose is telling, how people do you see just digging away that would ordinarily never do that in public. However everything you say about drivers also holds true to cyclists many times, entitled, self righteous don't follow the basic rules. The big difference if they are being stupid or aggressive most of the time they'll only hurt or kill themselves.

[Tony T]

W-T-F! If I didn't have my kid in the car, I would have whipped a U, chased them down and had words.

While you are in the right, why forfeit that by chasing them down?
Would you chase down a car that cut you off? (I used to do that when I was 21, but not any more….)

[yngpunk]

Stupidity and bad behavior/inconsiderate behavior are every where. I'll give you something seems to happen when people are enclosed in their cars. I think picking of the nose is telling, how people do you see just digging away that would ordinarily never do that in public. However everything you say about drivers also holds true to cyclists many times, entitled, self righteous don't follow the basic rules. The big difference if they are being stupid or aggressive most of the time they'll only hurt or kill themselves.

The things you learn on NPR/Car Talk:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/1443-men-who-pick

[professerr]

I'll give you the benefit that I didn't include those details... left turn lane, left turn signal on, I have the green.

They jumped a red in to an active intersection on a very busy road. Regardless of what 'I' was doing, under what circumstances were there actions safe/OK? God forbid they would have to sit for a 90 second red light.

You can't seriously be defending them.

I think they just made a mistake, or error in judgement. Reading your posted info, it seems they didn't expect a car to cross the street from a private drive and turn left in front of them on a green left turn signal. Not what I would have done, but I understand it

[DukeHorn]

I think they just made a mistake, or error in judgement. Reading your posted info, it seems they didn't expect a car to cross the street from a private drive and turn left in front of them on a green left turn signal. Not what I would have done, but I understand it

It still doesn't matter. You (the cyclist) have a red light. There was a car with a green light (even if it's coming out of a parking lot/private drive). You have no idea what the car is going to do, you sit at the red light. It's (a) common-sense, (b) the law, and (c) if there is a collision between you and the car, you lose (so double down on the common sense piece).

There was a recent SF cyclist who posted a video of a car driver breaking the 3 feet law. I had to laugh when I watched the video as said cyclist rolls through a crosswalk (illegal) to put himself in front of the car when he knows that car will be faster than him when the light turns green (bad form).

There's way too much entitlement among certain cyclists in the community.

[Tony T]

He did say that the cyclists were wrong.
That does not give a driver the right to "chase them down and have words" (OP said if he was alone he would have done this)

And of course, drivers never roll through a Stop Sign :)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . for precisely this reason. There's a certain percentage of people who are idiots, whether they are driving, riding, or walking.

BBD

There are many fools on the road.