Way freaking OT kid's college ap

[djg]

My eldest just got in early decision to William & Mary (a fine school, and a state school for us -- way cheaper than private options, and no the mind is not yet wandering to all the extra kit I might afford . . . ooh, shiny, wait, where was I?) She's happy and relieved and I'm happy and relieved for her. And proud, still, always.

I know other folks are struggling with this nonsense. Just keep turning the pedals.

[akelman]

I have a number of friends who teach at William and Mary, and it seems like there's almost certainly no better undergraduate education to be had in this country. Many congratulations to you and yours.

[shovelhd]

Early decision early action makes a lot of sense if it's your kids #1 school. If they get in, great. If not, start the applications to the other schools after the decision. Saves a bunch of time and money. My youngest was early decision at Syracuse and is loving it there. Not a state school. Not cheap.

[mike p]

Congrats to you and your daughter! That's all an ancient memory to me :-). My son graduated from the USNA 07 and my daughter from suny Binghamton 09. My advice..... enjoy her time there with her. Visit regularly, and go to her functions. In the blink of an eye she'll be done school, gone and on her own and you'll be seeing her a couple times a year around the holidays.
The older you get the more you want to just enjoy the he'll out of everyday! Congrats again, great news!

Mike

[oldpotatoe]

Congrats to you and your daughter! That's all an ancient memory to me :-). My son graduated from the USNA 07 and my daughter from suny Binghamton 09. My advice..... enjoy her time there with her. Visit regularly, and go to her functions. In the blink of an eye she'll be done school, gone and on her own and you'll be seeing her a couple times a year around the holidays.
The older you get the more you want to just enjoy the he'll out of everyday! Congrats again, great news!

Mike

Thank him for his service and what is he doing?

[mike p]

Congrats to you too Shovel! Syracuse is just an hour north of me. Great school, great B ball team, and your right Not Cheap!

Mike

[mike p]

Thanks much! Since he gratuated.....flight school in Pensacola, flying E2 hawkeyes off the US Reagan, and now instructing in Norfolk.
I've told him all about the famous retired Navy pilot on my bike forum! He'd love to meet you some day.
Thanks again
Mike

Thank him for his service and what is he doing?

[Ralph]

Congrats to your daughter. She sounds like a fine person, and obviously the parents did a good job also. I sent 3 off to college, and when the kids go off to school, in many ways the parents do also. Enjoy while it lasts.

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks much! Since he gratuated.....flight school in Pensacola, flying E2 hawkeyes off the US Reagan, and now instructing in Norfolk.
I've told him all about the famous retired Navy pilot on my bike forum! He'd love to meet you some day.
Thanks again
Mike

Somebody in a Hummer(E-2), on dark and scary nights, often got me back to the boat, particularly in Phantoms. Good for him.

[rwsaunders]

Congrats to you. We have two in college now and one to go...it can be stressful if you let it get to you. I'm convinced that the key is to have your kid find the right environment for them, which might not necessarily be the right environment for you if that makes sense. If a school is the right fit for them, they will feel like they belong to that particular community and they will thrive. It's pretty cool stuff.

[bcroslin]

Congratulations! William and Mary is a fantastic school. I'm going through the same thing with my daughter. College app #11 will go out next week for UVA. It's nerve wracking and unfortunately my daughter didn't have a clear top school so no early decision apps. I'm not a religious guy but I'm praying she stays instate. Trying to explain to a 17 yr old what 60k of college debt looks like is damn near impossible. Especially when she attends a private HS where for 99% of her friends price is no object. She's a good kid with a solid head on her shoulders and I know she'll make the right choice financially but it's bound to be crushing when she sees her friends accept out-of-state offers - especially her boyfriend.

[Ken Robb]

I love visiting Williamsburg so I think your visits to your daughter will be extra-special. What a neat place it must be for history majors!

[93legendti]

Reminds me of visiting grad schools with Dad...good times.

[djg]

Congratulations! William and Mary is a fantastic school. I'm going through the same thing with my daughter. College app #11 will go out next week for UVA. It's nerve wracking and unfortunately my daughter didn't have a clear top school so no early decision apps. I'm not a religious guy but I'm praying she stays instate. Trying to explain to a 17 yr old what 60k of college debt looks like is damn near impossible. Especially when she attends a private HS where for 99% of her friends price is no object. She's a good kid with a solid head on her shoulders and I know she'll make the right choice financially but it's bound to be crushing when she sees her friends accept out-of-state offers - especially her boyfriend.

Thanks (and to all)

I sympathize. We've been fortunate in a lot of ways, but there are two more kids (both in middle school) and I cannot help but notice that my own dear alma mater now charges something in excess of 65k per year ("total cost of attendance") -- multiply that by four, and then by 3 for the three kids, and as they say in Washington, pretty soon you're talking real money. I'll be very glad to turn in that 529 prepaid contract that I sprung for and have the tuition covered.

UVa is a terrific university and I wish her well in her application (I don't think they even do early decision, do they?) -- getting some horrible press lately, but there are many great people down there. My little brother was a UVa undergrad, spent a year at Cambridge, and then returned to UVa for law school. He's a very smart thoughtful guy, not a rah-rah preppie or frat guy at all, and he has very fond memories of the place and a very high opinion of the education they offer. Good luck to your daughter. A solid head on her shoulders means she'll find her way.

And good luck to all who are going through this. I feel bad for all the stress kids seem to be under these days. Lots of good possibilities out there.

[shovelhd]

Best of luck to you, too djg.

My oldest graduated this year with a degree in Journalism. He is freelancing for four different media outlets while looking for a full time job. The millennials are an interesting generation. They don't want to make the compromises that we did. They know what they want and they will do what they have to do to get it.

[flydhest]

Dan, both my alma mater and the place where I first taught after finishing my PhD. Mazel Tov. It is a great school.

[Ken Robb]

I was surprised to learn about Stanford's early admit program this year. One of Leslie's former piano students wanted to go to Stanford. She is brilliant withall available AP classes, varsity runner, an officer in a very good business/entrepreneur training program, etc. and was turned down for early-admit. I thought she might have been passed over in favor of a geographical diversity decision since she lives in SoCal.

IT turns out that Stanford offers a limited number of early admits and most of them go to recruited athletes and "legacies". This gal was not offered an athletic scholarship for her running from Stanford so she missed that guarantee. I thought she had no worries because she would get in under the regular application/admission program but NO!!! If you are denied early admittance you can't apply for regular admittance! There must be a reason they would deny well-qualified students who wanted to attend so much that they tried early admit but I can't guess what it might be.

She shrugged off her disappointment and has LOVED her first few months at Princeton where she is on the Cross Country Team. I guess it's a pretty good good back-up choice. :-)

[bcroslin]

Best of luck to you, too djg.

My oldest graduated this year with a degree in Journalism. He is freelancing for four different media outlets while looking for a full time job. The millennials are an interesting generation. They don't want to make the compromises that we did. They know what they want and they will do what they have to do to get it.

Ouch. As someone who has a journalism degree I've warned my daughter I'd disown her if she even thought about it. Has he considered law school?

[shovelhd]

Ouch. As someone who has a journalism degree I've warned my daughter I'd disown her if she even thought about it. Has he considered law school?

Not yet. Grad school overseas, but not really serious about it.

[djg]

Dan, both my alma mater and the place where I first taught after finishing my PhD. Mazel Tov. It is a great school.

Cool. She's mostly interested in neuroscience 'n things, but she has to take baby micro at some point, right? Know any good teachers there?

[Louis]

my own dear alma mater now charges something in excess of 65k per year ("total cost of attendance")

A tad more than when we attended the College on the Hill. It's nuts. If only the rich old guys (like us!) would contribute more to the Alumni Fund. ;)

Congratulations to your daughter. I've long since concluded that for the vast majority of jobs / "life experiences" out there, it isn't where you went to school, but what you did and learned while you were in school.

[djg]

I was surprised to learn about Stanford's early admit program this year. One of Leslie's former piano students wanted to go to Stanford. She is brilliant withall available AP classes, varsity runner, an officer in a very good business/entrepreneur training program, etc. and was turned down for early-admit. I thought she might have been passed over in favor of a geographical diversity decision since she lives in SoCal.

IT turns out that Stanford offers a limited number of early admits and most of them go to recruited athletes and "legacies". This gal was not offered an athletic scholarship for her running from Stanford so she missed that guarantee. I thought she had no worries because she would get in under the regular application/admission program but NO!!! If you are denied early admittance you can't apply for regular admittance! There must be a reason they would deny well-qualified students who wanted to attend so much that they tried early admit but I can't guess what it might be.

She shrugged off her disappointment and has LOVED her first few months at Princeton where she is on the Cross Country Team. I guess it's a pretty good good back-up choice. :-)

As some of us have learned from love, sometimes we're smarter with the second choice anyway.

[djg]

A tad more than when we attended the College on the Hill. It's nuts. If only the rich old guys (like us!) would contribute more to the Alumni Fund. ;)

Congratulations to your daughter. I've long since concluded that for the vast majority of jobs / "life experiences" out there, it isn't where you went to school, but what you did and learned while you were in school.

Well, indeed, but it doesn't hurt to be surrounded by bright kids and good resources.

Yes, a tad more, and Tad's a big boy these days. If only I'd left my vast family fortune to the alumni fund . . . but hey, there's a building up there with my last name on it. No relations, of course -- my immigrant dad got the name off a street sign -- but still. Same spelling and everything. It's sorta like I did my part.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Trying to explain to a 17 yr old what 60k of college debt looks like is damn near impossible..

My 18 yr old nephew is at Virginia Tech, $25K in debt at 18, just incredible. And not even half way through his first year he wants to transfer to UConn, for a few reasons, but more so to be closer to home. Sometimes it's hard for them to make these choices, they're still finding their way.

[Louis]

Does anyone know why the cost of college tuition has exceeded inflation as much as it has?

Shift in the supply curve? (gotta pay more gardeners to tend the ivy)

Shift in the demand curve? (more parents and kids clamoring for the best possible education $$$ can buy)

(I think that was from Ecy 5)

[roydyates]

Does anyone know why the cost of college tuition has exceeded inflation as much as it has?

Shift in the supply curve? (gotta pay more gardeners to tend the ivy)

Shift in the demand curve? (more parents and kids clamoring for the best possible education $$$ can buy)

(I think that was from Ecy 5)

Serious thread hi-jack. I think both of oyur explanations have some truth. There are multiple reasons (with varying degrees of validity that I can't really judge) that I have heard:

1. College education is a service whose productivity has not increased (maybe at all) but certainly not at the same rate as other services in the economy. This is because college is mostly the same as it has always been (lectures, homework, grading etc) This causes its costs to rise faster than other costs in the general economy.

2. Government loan programs enable young people to "afford" a very expensive college education and these young people must make decisions about the value of that expense before they are sufficiently knowledgeable.

3. For many, college is a Giffen good, i.e. a product that people view as more attractive as the price goes up.

4. Despite the large increases in college tuition, the longterm payback is in many fields worth the expense.

[Louis]

3. For many, college is a Giffen good, i.e. a product that people view as more attractive as the price goes up.

Don't say that to the guys sporting Rapha jerseys...

[verticaldoug]

http://www.deltacostproject.org/

This is probably one of the best resources for looking at spending trends. The reasons for tuition increases are not as simple as we'd like to believe.

[Ken Robb]

One reason for the tremendous increase in cost has to be that so many campuses have become luxury resorts. At least some of the new palatial buildings for recreation and social activities have to be huge drains on funds even if the structures were gifts. When I was at Northwestern in 1961-65 we didn't even have a student union. Now there are multiple swimming pools, indoor tracks in huge recreational complexes, a new building for the sailing club, etc. The number of undergrads hasn't grown much.

[Louis]

I assume these colleges have a net profit from big-time sports, but this sort of thing is just plain wrong:

(sorry about the thread drift)

[Cat3roadracer]

Years ago I played golf in college, Siena College, Loudonville, NY. During spring break one year we were invited to play with the UVa team, my Uncle John was the head pro at Farmington for decades. All of the dudes on the team were plus handicaps. As nice as could be and could they play. Something to be said for playing 11 months of the year.

[verticaldoug]

There must be a reason they would deny well-qualified students who wanted to attend so much that they tried early admit but I can't guess what it might be.



I am sure she is a wonderful young woman, but there are a lot of wonderful young women that are just as impressive.

Unfortunately, I'd say her high school advisor failed to help her navigate the system.

Legacies are a big issue for admissions which makes this ( http://news.yahoo.com/harvard-sued-over-racial-profiling-004308670.html) Asian student group lawsuit vs Harvard so interesting.

[oldpotatoe]

I am sure she is a wonderful young woman, but there are a lot of wonderful young women that are just as impressive.

Unfortunately, I'd say her high school advisor failed to help her navigate the system.

Legacies are a big issue for admissions which makes this ( http://news.yahoo.com/harvard-sued-over-racial-profiling-004308670.html) Asian student group lawsuit vs Harvard so interesting.

True story. Son, 20 years ago, applied to Yale. He was a 4.0++ student, perfect, perfect SAT, editor of newspaper. Applied with his friend, similar credentials, not perfect SAT, no real outside of class, activities. Young woman. Woman was accepted, he was not. Woman's father Yale alum.

BUT yes, advisor seemed more interested in the other end of the bell curve, students.

[cfox]

We are about five years out on this and I'm not looking forward to it. I remember the hand wringing of some of my peers during the college application process. It was painful to watch. I was 18 and applied to a couple of schools, got into a decent state school and was done with it. I couldn't understand the angst involved. I thought then as I do now; don't waste money on the silly, foofy lib-arts country club. Go kick ass at a state school and save the big guns for grad school. If you can get into an Ivy undergrad, do it, otherwise go state.

It's even worse these days; you have little robots groomed and tutored from birth to be Ivy bound. Parents wrangle their kids through activity X and sport Y and charity work Z because they think they are ticking all the boxes the admission office is looking for. Forget whether or not the kid has the talent, they will be transformed, dammit!! I want to talk IVY LEAGUE at my next cocktail party!!!!

A guy I know has a daughter with 4.0 from best private school in Manhattan, aced SATs, super athlete, president this, editor that, charity work every weekend, and on and on...didn't get into Yale. Why? Because she was competing with 3,000 other rich white kids with identical resumes.

[shovelhd]

I assume these colleges have a net profit from big-time sports, but this sort of thing is just plain wrong:

(sorry about the thread drift)

Everybody likes to pick on coaches salaries but for every six million dollar coach there are a hundred 300k professors on tenure with pensions and medical for life. The argument that the salary brings in money applies to both.

[sjbraun]

Everybody likes to pick on coaches salaries but for every six million dollar coach there are a hundred 300k professors on tenure with pensions and medical for life. The argument that the salary brings in money applies to both.

Huh? Where'd you get the data to support this claim?

Here's some that suggests a different story on tenured faculty reimbursement.

http://chronicle.com/article/Average-Salaries-of-Tenured/145283/

[rugbysecondrow]

Truth

We are about five years out on this and I'm not looking forward to it. I remember the hand wringing of some of my peers during the college application process. It was painful to watch. I was 18 and applied to a couple of schools, got into a decent state school and was done with it. I couldn't understand the angst involved. I thought then as I do now; don't waste money on the silly, foofy lib-arts country club. Go kick ass at a state school and save the big guns for grad school. If you can get into an Ivy undergrad, do it, otherwise go state.

It's even worse these days; you have little robots groomed and tutored from birth to be Ivy bound. Parents wrangle their kids through activity X and sport Y and charity work Z because they think they are ticking all the boxes the admission office is looking for. Forget whether or not the kid has the talent, they will be transformed, dammit!! I want to talk IVY LEAGUE at my next cocktail party!!!!

A guy I know has a daughter with 4.0 from best private school in Manhattan, aced SATs, super athlete, president this, editor that, charity work every weekend, and on and on...didn't get into Yale. Why? Because she was competing with 3,000 other rich white kids with identical resumes.

[sjbraun]

The debt many kids are accepting in order to complete undergraduate degrees is way out of line with the value they're getting. Stanford, USC, the Ivy league schools might be worth the costs and associated debt, but not your small, expensive, liberal arts college.
My kids were accepted to respected liberal arts colleges, but even with every academic scholarship available, would have incurred $60-80k in student loans over four years. Instead they went to in state public colleges, enrolled in their honors programs and came out with great educations and manageable or no debt.
Any kid who navigates a large school carefully can receive a great education. Something as simple as showing up for a professor's office hours can make a huge difference in the learning opportunities and can easily rival the opportunities provided by upper tier colleges.
As others have mentioned, save the debt for grad school.

[rugbysecondrow]

Huh? Where'd you get the data to support this claim?

Here's some that suggests a different story on tenured faculty reimbursement.

http://chronicle.com/article/Average-Salaries-of-Tenured/145283/

I suspect there are more, competent PHD floating around than there are competent college level football coaches. Not to diminish the achievement of a PHD, but it seems to be a perfect example of the law of diminishing returns.

Congrats to the OP on the selection. There is something to be said for making a decision and moving forward with life.

Cheers,

Paul

[cfox]

The debt many kids are accepting in order to complete undergraduate degrees is way out of line with the value they're getting. Stanford, USC, the Ivy league schools might be worth the costs and associated debt, but not your small, expensive, liberal arts college.
My kids were accepted to respected liberal arts colleges, but even with every academic scholarship available, would have incurred $60-80k in student loans over four years. Instead they went to in state public colleges, enrolled in their honors programs and came out with great educations and manageable or no debt.
Any kid who navigates a large school carefully can receive a great education. Something as simple as showing up for a professor's office hours can make a huge difference in the learning opportunities and can easily rival the opportunities provided by upper tier colleges.
As others have mentioned, save the debt for grad school.
Awesome.

[rwsaunders]

To all of the parents of bright, young women who are applying for college, this will be a good read as it still holds true today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/opinion/23britz.html?_r=0

[djg]

I am sure she is a wonderful young woman, but there are a lot of wonderful young women that are just as impressive.

Unfortunately, I'd say her high school advisor failed to help her navigate the system.

Legacies are a big issue for admissions which makes this ( http://news.yahoo.com/harvard-sued-over-racial-profiling-004308670.html) Asian student group lawsuit vs Harvard so interesting.

If a good student fails to get into any suitable college, that's a sign that a student (and a student's advisors) failed to navigate the system. If a student fails to get into one particular highly (extremely) selective college, that's a sign of nothin' much more than the size and strength of the applicant pool. Stanford has a lot to offer AND it has gotten crazy popular. They could probably shoot every fourth tour group without depressing applications too much more than the number of deceased.

An old pal's kid applied early decision to Stanford a couple of years ago. Straight As at the magnet school, interesting and decent kid with some activities, etc. No rap sheet. SATs? Perfect. What I mean by "perfect" is perfect -- 2400. Ding, sorry, nope, take a hike.

Was he ill advised? Ill prepared? Maybe, but I figure it was just one of those things. Didn't get into Hahvahd either, but he had a bunch of fine choices and he loves his college (Louis, you've been there), and he's doing well.

[Corso]

Elizabeth Warren, won an election and part of her platform was “college kids are getting screwed with high student loans and the high cost of education, we have to do something”…

Odd coming from a woman who was paid over $350,000 for teaching ONE class at Harvard.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

"..............Hahvahd..............."

Now that was funny. Got one in Naugatuck (to start), and one 7 yrs out, already talking Yale etc. (at effing 10 yrs old!!!!!). So many factors as to why someone does or does not get into a certain school. Funny (well, not really) article on how many Ivy League grads work at Panera, Starbuck's etc. Scary world we live in.

[fuzzalow]

For a young adult there is never a manual for competence, to say nothing about how to achieve outright success. The university is important but not as important as the young person being able to figure out how to use it and what they have learned to expect and demand from themselves.

As a parent this is most disconcerting because there is not any input we can provide to help them along other than what we have inculcated to them from birth. So in large part how they do at the end is predicated on what a parent has done from the very beginning.

Good luck to the young adults out there and also to the parents. Raising kids seems deceptively easy compared to sending them to university and having them decide for themselves. But if a parent did the right job their kids will exhibit the same and it will be alright. I'm almost done with this chapter but it also never really ends.

I feel compelled to add this: private university is very expensive. Prepare the investment portfolio for that eventuality. $50k a year is very easy to happen so hope for the best but plan for the worst.

[malcolm]

I seem to recall an article fairly recently from several economists that suggest for the first time in our country college may not make financial sense for many students. Leaving just being educated aside and looking from strictly money aspect they may never recover the money spent on education and money lost from work while obtaining said education. Kids can now get jobs in skilled trades in a much shorter time so be in the work force earlier and make more money at least initially than new college grads. Seems to be a sad state of affairs when you have to view your education based only on monetary return, but I think it's becoming a reality.

As to big time football coaches salaries. Football at universities like university of Alabama is what it is, big business. When Saban was hired people were shocked by his 40mil puls package, now several championships later I suspect they would gladly pay him more. I can't substantiate it but I've heard that UA football covers the costs of athletics as a whole with money left over, so when you have a program able to generate those kinds of funds you'll be willing to spend plenty to make sure they are successful.

As an aside I worked in Tuscaloosa for many years and the Athletics directors day game that I think most university football teams have just before the season starts, mostly to give the press a chance to see the team routinely sees 80+ thousand fans in Al, so yeah football is big business

[Elefantino]

That is awesome, Dan! All the best to her and a healthy pat on the back to the proud papa.

My baby accepted early decision to GWU and graduated last May. Her starting salary is more than mine ever was as a newspaper editor!

[bcroslin]

I was surprised to learn about Stanford's early admit program this year. One of Leslie's former piano students wanted to go to Stanford. She is brilliant withall available AP classes, varsity runner, an officer in a very good business/entrepreneur training program, etc. and was turned down for early-admit. I thought she might have been passed over in favor of a geographical diversity decision since she lives in SoCal.

IT turns out that Stanford offers a limited number of early admits and most of them go to recruited athletes and "legacies". This gal was not offered an athletic scholarship for her running from Stanford so she missed that guarantee. I thought she had no worries because she would get in under the regular application/admission program but NO!!! If you are denied early admittance you can't apply for regular admittance! There must be a reason they would deny well-qualified students who wanted to attend so much that they tried early admit but I can't guess what it might be.

She shrugged off her disappointment and has LOVED her first few months at Princeton where she is on the Cross Country Team. I guess it's a pretty good good back-up choice. :-)

The counselors at my daughter's prep school warn the students NOT to apply early admission unless they are an absolute rock star and even then they carefully research the school to make sure the student is a shoo-in. The counselors advise not to apply early admission to the state schools because of the one-and-done nature of the application process. My daughter was told specifically to wait to apply to UVA and UNC because the early admission process is super competitive. Like I said, I want desperately for her to go in state because I know what it's like to spend the better part of 15 years paying off student loan debt. I had no choice as my parents couldn't be bothered with planning for my college education. I've spent the last 10 years investing in a 529 and I'm worried she may still have to take a loan or two for things like study abroad but that's ok.

Anyway, this piece on college admission from the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/upshot/for-accomplished-students-reaching-a-top-college-isnt-actually-that-hard.html?rref=upshot) calmed my nerves a bit about the application process. I've found that the process is as nerve wracking as YOU want to make it. Best thing to do is really prepare and then let the chips fall where they may.

[verticaldoug]

http://www.deltacostproject.org/

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/GetOneInstitutionData.aspx

The first link is the online site for data on costs at colleges. The site is interesting but also shows the cause of cost increases are not as simple to control as people assume.

The second link is for Equity in Athletics. It has filings for compliance with title 9. It has the entire university sports budgets across D1,2 and 3.
The big sports programs are big business but these are not the norm. For the big sports schools the athletic programs are essentially stand alone entities which only share a name with University. I think the only big time program that actually puts money into a general fund is Notre Dame. The Texas, Alabama, OSU of the worlds spend 100% of the revenues.

[93legendti]

Without looking at this blip in history, our dismal economy and why it's under performing, conclusions re if college is "worth it" are questionable...

[bcroslin]

Without looking at this blip in history, our dismal economy and why it's under performing, conclusions re if college is "worth it" are questionable...

While my glass-half-full disposition would tend to agree with you the data says you're still better off with a degree (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/27/upshot/is-college-worth-it-clearly-new-data-say.html).

[Ken Robb]

I am sure she is a wonderful young woman, but there are a lot of wonderful young women that are just as impressive.

Unfortunately, I'd say her high school advisor failed to help her navigate the system.

Legacies are a big issue for admissions which makes this ( http://news.yahoo.com/harvard-sued-over-racial-profiling-004308670.html) Asian student group lawsuit vs Harvard so interesting.

I wasn't so surprised she didn't get early admit as I was about the POLICY that people turned down for early admit are not eligible to be considered under the presumably less rigorous regular admit program.

[malcolm]

While my glass-half-full disposition would tend to agree with you the data says you're still better off with a degree (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/27/upshot/is-college-worth-it-clearly-new-data-say.html).

I wonder what that data looks like if you eliminate physicians, dentists and the like from the high earning pool and the lower wage earners say HS grads and non grads, to try and get a true median income. Then compare college with skilled trades.

[cfox]

this piece on college admission from the NYT[/URL] calmed my nerves a bit about the application process. I've found that the process is as nerve wracking as YOU want to make it. Best thing to do is really prepare and then let the chips fall where they may.

Wisdom (in bold). Too many people act as if undergrad education is caste system. In other words, their kid's futures will be doomed if they don't get into school A,B, or C. It's absolutely not true, and it is absurd to think otherwise. Yes, we all want what is best for our kid, but jeezus, chill out. If your kid is as smart as you think, they will turn out okay, regardless of where the attend freakin' undergrad.

[Louis]

I wonder what that data looks like if you eliminate physicians, dentists and the like from the high earning pool and the lower wage earners say HS grads and non grads, to try and get a true median income. Then compare college with skilled trades.

Looking at median instead an average does give you the comparison you're looking for, by de-emphasizing the relatively small number of high-earners near the top.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

I wonder what that data looks like if you eliminate physicians, dentists and the like from the high earning pool and the lower wage earners say HS grads and non grads, to try and get a true median income. Then compare college with skilled trades.

Can you (or any of us) define low wage HS grads?

[malcolm]

Can you (or any of us) define low wage HS grads?

probably not and I'm sure it's off base to say they are low income based just on that as I know several that make a ton of money. I was just wanting to eliminate the skinny ends of the bell curve. Or maybe just figure a way to compare skilled trades to college grads but leave the really high few percent out, because I think they skew the college grad numbers upward.

[djg]

That is awesome, Dan! All the best to her and a healthy pat on the back to the proud papa.

My baby accepted early decision to GWU and graduated last May. Her starting salary is more than mine ever was as a newspaper editor!

Accepted, graduated, and employed -- you hit the trifecta.

[oldpotatoe]

Without looking at this blip in history, our dismal economy and why it's under performing, conclusions re if college is "worth it" are questionable...

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/novembers-jobs-report-crushed-it

here we go again...

A degree vs no degree, is not the question. The value at a more expensive college or university is the ?

[Elefantino]

Accepted, graduated, and employed -- you hit the trifecta.
You bet.

She is my retirement plan.

[bcroslin]

You bet.

She is my retirement plan.

I thought I was the only one with that retirement plan. :)

[verticaldoug]

I thought I was the only one with that retirement plan. :)

You both sound like candidates for Ubasute.