IF vs 7 Finish

[UKBROOKLYN]

Hello fellas..

Well I went and got fully measured yesterday and am now awaiting the output of a suggested frame design along with all my cardinal points etc.. So a few more days to make my final decision. Seven or IF.....

Seven, almost logical as they are the grand children of Merlin which I love (My one is just too big and two years of trolling has not found one my size.)

BUT... Not keen on the swoopy seat stays.. I love the straight stays on my Merlin.. also not attracted to the tusk fork, but the Enve is an available option.

IF Crown Jewel, Same price as 7, with the Enve 2.0 and I can get it in a brushed finish at same price as shot peened one.

IF has the straight stays I like.. plus it's double butted as is the 7 Axion SL.

I love the finish of the 7 the smooth brushed look is a thing of beauty. Problem is I have never seen an IF with a brushed finish.

Anyone out there got any comments.. Please don't suggest other makers I have already done all my homework and these two are among the ones that the Shop that measured me for have a lot of experience with.

Anyone got a brushed finish Indy Fab ??

[verticaldoug]

lambo or ferrari, lambo or ferrari.....
does it really matter...

flip a coin.

[UKBROOKLYN]

Why did you bother to reply..

[Bkat]

Even though I'm selling my IF CJ ti due to time constraints and a lot less riding time, I gotta say I've been nothing but happy with Independent Fabrication's finish and build. I went with the shot peened. it depends how you ride, but I had mine built to accept slightly wider tires which makes it a bit more adaptable in my opinion. They are great to work with and glad I could do my small part to help support New Hampshire's economy.

Just my two cents and worth every penny.

[christian]

Because you're asking a basically aesthetic question. Lambo or Ferrari doesn't cover it. It's more like red Lambo or yellow Ferrari. We don't know if you prefer red or yellow.

I am certain you can get a Seven with straight seat stays.

[eddief]

Both of your choices cost lots of money and both, i'm sure, are worth their weight in the gold you will fork over to buy them. Take the design and the dimensions to a builder (Firefly) and have a conversation and get exactly what you want. Don't understand bike shop in the middle. Oh, and shot peened probably looks great upon delivery, but not so once you nick it. Brushed is what ti is all about...in my opine. nothing like goin to the hardware store, buyin a big sheet of scotch brite, comin home, and giving those tubes a quick spit shine. oh, and good luck no matter what you choose. ti good.

[veloduffer]

Why can't you ask for straight stays from Seven- it's all custom?

[UKBROOKLYN]

And they seem reticent.. If i could get 7 to do the straight stays I think it would be a no brainer.. Enve 2 and straight stays and that super lovely finish.. But my measuring guys echo 7s reticence at adapting the design.

I guess I will look at the frame design and possibly approach 7 again.. I have also heard that IF have some fulfillment problems.. ie not always getting it right the first time round. Although in my emails back and forth they seem very ready to do anything one could desire.

[avalonracing]

I've heard some talk that the thought is that a peened fished is stronger because it microscopically compresses the finish. That said, I don't think it will matter.
The great part about the brushed finish is not only does it initially look great, it will always look great if you want to refinish it yourself with a Scotchbrite pad.

It's all personal but I think a brushed Ti frame looks like a jewel compared to the peened finished that looks like it came out of some dude's garage.

[Likes2ridefar]

I've had both but neither were built for me but for another person the same size and weight as me.

Personally like a few others here have already mentioned, I'd get neither. both are fantastic but you are paying a serious premium for the name.

if i had to flip a coin, i'd go IF because I like their finish and the genuine silver HT badge. but then moots does the finish too, and you get that awesome dinosaur thing on the HT. it's a tough choice which name sounds cooler.

I prefer black sheep though because of the cute little sheep you get with the titanium bike.

I like my parlee a lot more than any Ti bike though...

and why would a shops experience with them matter? all they are doing is sending some measurements...

notice no comments on ride quality, build etc? at this point it doesnt matter. so back to the yellow or red lambo. I'll take the bugatti (parlee) any day.

[jr59]

Really, what we like does not matter. Get the type of bike that you like!

Red, blue, or yellow, no wrong answers, just your own tastes!

[UKBROOKLYN]

Ok thanks everyone.. Just quickly.. I rode a Moots a few weeks ago and it just did not blow my dress up. I guess I have been spoiled riging the Double Butted Merlin XL.. even too big it was a better ride than the Moots.. in y opinion.. and as someone said thats what counts more than anything here..

I am aware of all this stuff they write about peening Titanium, but the Merlin I have is a '98 vintage .. has seen many thousands of miles and there aint nothing with the frames integrity. Also the folks at IF just said peened or brushed your choice.. not a hint that the peening was anything special to them.

So to get back to it has anyone got or seen an IF with a brushed finish ??

[Likes2ridefar]

Ok thanks everyone.. Just quickly.. I rode a Moots a few weeks ago and it just did not blow my dress up. I guess I have been spoiled riging the Double Butted Merlin XL.. even too big it was a better ride than the Moots.. in y opinion.. and as someone said thats what counts more than anything here..

I am aware of all this stuff they write about peening Titanium, but the Merlin I have is a '98 vintage .. has seen many thousands of miles and there aint nothing with the frames integrity. Also the folks at IF just said peened or brushed your choice.. not a hint that the peening was anything special to them.

So to get back to it has anyone got or seen an IF with a brushed finish ??

Funny, i owned a merlin and moots at some point in my life too, and I thought the merlin was crap compared to the moots (relatively speaking)..but it was an xtra light version from I'm guessing the late 90s, and flexy as all get out. The seven flexed a lot too but was their ultra butted weight weenie version. llooooooveee the beautiful smooth finish though.

fwiw I'm not heavy but like to push hard.

maybe the moots had a few extra psi in the tires? I'd notice that more than a frame. or heavier wheels or total overall heavier build?

[Cat3roadracer]

Why did you bother to reply..



Why did you bother to post this?

[UKBROOKLYN]

I can't say what it was a certain Je Ne Sais Pas.. and thats heavy for an Englishman to use French.. I do run the Merlin with Campy wheels that might be huge factor.. But I guess it's horses for courses..

[eddief]

this is about the builder knowing the tubes and knowing your weight and knowing if you want your teeth to fall out when you go over a bump. Davis Carver designed a bike for me, it was manufactured in China, and "they" got it right. Not even remotely suggesting you get a Carver, but think you need to find a builder you think will get it right. And will a CAD drawing submitted by your bike shop to IF or whomever get it done?

[OtayBW]

Why did you bother to post this?
That was my first impression as well. But then, I have no experience with either Seven or IF titanium, so I have nothing to add myself....:banana:

[JasonF]

I love my Seven Axiom SL and as you know, you'll never notice the curved stays when using the bike for its intended purpose.

I'm not sure if a long wait matters to you, but I was blown away by not only the customer service at Seven, but the fact that my bike was done within four weeks from my fitting @ Signature Cycles. The stated wait was 7-8 weeks.

[jds108]

You mentioned some concern about a Tusk fork. I thought 7 made their own forks. Is that what you're referring to? I thought their forks looked pretty good, like a Ouzo Pro but with a wider profile when viewed from the side.

[dave thompson]

Geez, first world problems.

[UKBROOKLYN]

Um yeah Jason I am using Signature.. and they told me 7 is delivering really quickly.. though thats not such a big issue as I have a current ride and it is winter anyway.. True I can't see my ass as I am walking down the street but I still want it to look good :) .. They are not pushing one way or another..

Yep I meant the 7 Fork it's kind of Tusk shaped.. The Jury is split on this, some like the look some prefer the Enve.. they are equally good.. And both available for the 7.

So it looks like no one has any experience or has ever seen an IF with a brushed finish ?? Which was the reason I posted this to begin with.. hence the title of my thread...

[PaMtbRider]

I know you said you didn't want to hear other suggestions but I think you are really missing out. You love the Merlin. Go to the guy who designed that bike. Tom Kellogg. Get the local shop out of the middle of it. Let the guy who is going to design your bike see you on your bike and take the measurements he needs.

As far as seeing an IF with a brushed finish, picture any maker of a Ti frame with a brushed finish and put IF decals on it. It's brushed Ti. Not a lot to differentiate one from the other.

[pbarry]

Not sure why an "IF brushed finish" would be any different aesthetically from your Merlin? Brushed will be easier to maintain/refresh than the blasted finish.

If you don't like 7's curved stays, you may have buyer's remorse trying to learn to love them... They are a trademark of 7, and go back 23 years for Rob V, so I can understand them not being too keen on going straight for one custom.

[weisan]

Tom Kellogg.

Open and shut case....next.

[fuzzalow]

I don't understand the hostility in some of replies to this thread, I for one am pleased for what you are about to embark and I can understand your wanting to share your enthusiasm.

That said, for what you should experience in purchasing a top tier frame, I think there are two comments I can add:

there should be a fulfillment of all the primary aesthetic points you want, do not compromise on this. I too am not fond of overly stylized seatstays and I made sure to make this a non-negotiable element as to go or no-go. Then again, it is also nice to have your own style boundaries moved forwards by what might be a signature style element of the maker you are about to buy a frame from. This is good too and it is a nice spot to be in.
All bikes in this stratosphere ride great but only if you have a firm grasp of your fit & how that fit folds into the frame design. I am very wary of bike shops that do fit measuring but in fairness to them, you have final sign-off approval for the CAD drawing so as long as you know what you're doing, you should be OK. It's your money on the line so even if they say they know how to place you in the frame - trust but verify.

Sorry I can't help you on the finish, I bought an Eriksen and I don't even know what the finish is on that. I do know it takes on a great pearlescent siver-grey shine after applying Zymol wax to it.

[UKBROOKLYN]

Well I don't agree that one brushed finish is the same as the next. have you ever looked at a Lynskey next to a Seven ?? Huge difference..

Of course I thought about going to TK but a friend of mine recently did that and TK has very stringent ideas of what he wants bikes to look like. His latest ones have a baseball bat top tube.. fatter at the head tube. I am not into that. Plus they are all welded up at Seven anyway..and they use the same seat stays..

Thanks for your words Fuzzalow.. The place that measured me is well recognized as a top design studio in NYC I know many many people who have used them. Here in NYC you kind of have to go the dealer route as most builders are at least 4 to 5 hour away.

[fuzzalow]

^ No problem.

I think a point overlooked by those that either primarily buy in the pre-owned market or have not had extensive dealings with custom makers:

It is not so cavalier to say Ferrari or Lambo because the "burden" or weight of some of the decision process in buying custom falls on the client customer. And its a decision that is worrisome because there is the fear that a mistake could be made. And because most of us do not enjoy unlimited resources to buy another if we decide wrong, that decision can get tossed and turned in the consciousness for some length of time.

Don't fret. It is a heck of a lotta fun and you get better at it over time. And there are very few mistakes in finish or paint that are truly fatal. So yes, in that overall sense, it is Ferrari or Lambo. But the timing and the context of the decision changes everything.

[rwsaunders]

If you're working with Signature Cycles, they carry both IF and Seven so I'd be surprised if they didn't have tube/finish samples in the shop. If not, perhaps ask them to locate the samples as you stated that you're not in a hurry.

[SpeedyChix]

You're spot on about the brushed ti finishes being different. Each brand has a slightly different look. I've never seen a brushed IF (or even knew that they offered anything but the shot-peened one).

Can your fitter get you a close-up pic from IF of one of their brushed frames?

[crownjewelwl]

Whatever you choose go brushed...

It is easier maintain than the shot peened...I like the shot peened look more but a little scotch brite makes the brushed like new

I think it comes down to the ethos of the brand and what it means to you...both will weld ti pipes together magnificently and if you think you will actually be able to tell the differnence you're kidding yourself

I for one prefereed the Indy Fab...

[UKBROOKLYN]

Yeah I should have asked about finish samples but I was looking at all this disgustingly beautiful bike porn hanging on the wall.. It's a process so I will follow up with that.. I may also drop IF a line to get some hi res pics..

People always think my Merlin is new.. but it's just because I keep it really clean and give it a going over with the red scotch brite now and then.. Maintaining the brushed finish is so easy.

So I think it's down to a 7 if they will do straight stays.. otherwise a n Indy Fab.. depending on what the brushed finish looks like..

er I think.. man I am getting a headache.. you get down to two brands and theres still a lot to think about..

[Buzz Killington]

So, I'm not answering your question either, but Seven goes in to detail in their Titanium treatise as to why they don't shot peen their bikes. Might be marketing mumbo-jumbo, but worth the read.

[crownjewelwl]

So, I'm not answering your question either, but Seven goes in to detail in their Titanium treatise as to why they don't shot peen their bikes. Might be marketing mumbo-jumbo, but worth the read.


Indy Fab also claims that shot peening strengthens the tubes

[UKBROOKLYN]

Yeah mumbo jumbo.. anyway I am not getting a peened frame so makes no dif what the advertising says..

[Cat3roadracer]

But Moots is still the Kate Upton of the selection. Not the lightest, not the skinniest, but drop dead sexy. Don't overlook Kate Upton.

[UKBROOKLYN]

I already had a go on Kate Upton and she was just another Blonde

[Cat3roadracer]

Suit yourself. I'm sure you will be pleased with whichever you choose. Apples to apples really.

[avalonracing]

Of course I thought about going to TK but a friend of mine recently did that and TK has very stringent ideas of what he wants bikes to look like. His latest ones have a baseball bat top tube.. fatter at the head tube. I am not into that. Plus they are all welded up at Seven anyway..and they use the same seat stays..


There is a reason TK likes this. My Merlin Works CR in size large had huge tubes but I swear it is lighter and smoother riding that my Seven Axiom with more standard tubes. Of my Ti Serotta Colorado, my Litespeed and my Seven the TK Merlin with the funny tubes was the best ride hands down.

[bluesea]

But Moots is still the Kate Upton of the selection. Not the lightest, not the skinniest, but drop dead sexy. Don't overlook Kate Upton.


Then the Vamoots must be Kate Middleton. I'm down for that.

[UKBROOKLYN]

Surly Cross Check = Duchess of York (she is the tubby redhead one)

[pbarry]

Well I don't agree that one brushed finish is the same as the next. have you ever looked at a Lynskey next to a Seven ?? Huge difference..

Of course I thought about going to TK but a friend of mine recently did that and TK has very stringent ideas of what he wants bikes to look like. His latest ones have a baseball bat top tube.. fatter at the head tube. I am not into that. Plus they are all welded up at Seven anyway..and they use the same seat stays..

Thanks for your words Fuzzalow.. The place that measured me is well recognized as a top design studio in NYC I know many many people who have used them. Here in NYC you kind of have to go the dealer route as most builders are at least 4 to 5 hour away.

Yeah I should have asked about finish samples but I was looking at all this disgustingly beautiful bike porn hanging on the wall.. It's a process so I will follow up with that.. I may also drop IF a line to get some hi res pics..

People always think my Merlin is new.. but it's just because I keep it really clean and give it a going over with the red scotch brite now and then.. Maintaining the brushed finish is so easy.

So I think it's down to a 7 if they will do straight stays.. otherwise a n Indy Fab.. depending on what the brushed finish looks like..

er I think.. man I am getting a headache.. you get down to two brands and theres still a lot to think about..

[Bold added]

You are quibbling about the different brushed finishes when you do your own touch-up? Then the factory finish really doesn't matter.

Please share if 7 decides to build with straight stays.

[UKBROOKLYN]

I would like it to start off super beautifull.. I don't want to feel like i need to put more work into it..

I will update as and when the decision is made and of course keep the forum updated on the build.. I am already thinking of doing silver cockpit.. but thats for another evenings chat..

[jednjen42]

Have you considered Spectrum Cycles (http://spectrum-cycles.com/titanium.php)?
Tom Kellogg works with Merlin Metal Works for the Ti tubing then selects the Ti tubing based on your conversation with him and makes the cuts to his specs. Tom then sends the tubing to Seven to be welded. Seems like that would solve all your bike choosing problems. If you look through photos on Spectrum's website you'll see some straight seat stays, I'm sure it's an option at your request.

[UKBROOKLYN]

?? how did you miss what I wrote about why I did not go to TK..

[mod6]

Having owned both a Seven and now riding a shot peened Ericksen both finishes hold up well to daily riding. The brush finish will clean up easier with some scotch brite once it get really scuffed but I am more partial to the look of a shot peened finish. I really dig Seven fork and in my opinion is on par with a Enve fork. Seven builds a great bike and I would have never sold it if was a 54 as advertised instead of a 56. It's a coin flip or what builder gives you a better vibe.

[mod6]

BTW did you ever speak with Kent. He builds a really sweet Ti bike

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=142383

[potatochip]

Brushed is brushed. The finish is going to look the same no matter who does it.

[UKBROOKLYN]

Mod 6 "Please don't suggest other makers I have already done all my homework and these two are among the ones that the Shop that measured me for have a lot of experience with."

This is from my OP

Potatochip "Well I don't agree that one brushed finish is the same as the next. have you ever looked at a Lynskey next to a Seven ?? Huge difference.."

This reply is from way back in the body of the thread.

[PaMtbRider]

Well I don't agree that one brushed finish is the same as the next. have you ever looked at a Lynskey next to a Seven ?? Huge difference..



We will have to agree to disagree. Lynskey does 4 different finishes, satin, industrial mill, brushed, and polished. I haven't seen a brushed Lynskey side by side with a Seven but the brushed examples I have seen didn't strike me as any different than any other brushed Ti. Good luck with your decision. You really can't make a wrong choice between a Seven or an IF.

[velomonkey]

Since you asked . . . myself. . . . I'd go with a IF with bent seat stays.

That's me, I like to zig when others zag.

[mtb_frk]

I have two seven bikes, a imx and a mudhoney. Love both of them. I don't even know what finish the bikes have just the standard, but after 5 years on the mountain bike and 3 on the cross bike they still look great. If you are interested I have a thread for each in the custom gallery that I should probably update with some recent pictures.

[oldpotatoe]

Hello fellas..

Well I went and got fully measured yesterday and am now awaiting the output of a suggested frame design along with all my cardinal points etc.. So a few more days to make my final decision. Seven or IF.....

Seven, almost logical as they are the grand children of Merlin which I love (My one is just too big and two years of trolling has not found one my size.)

BUT... Not keen on the swoopy seat stays.. I love the straight stays on my Merlin.. also not attracted to the tusk fork, but the Enve is an available option.

IF Crown Jewel, Same price as 7, with the Enve 2.0 and I can get it in a brushed finish at same price as shot peened one.

IF has the straight stays I like.. plus it's double butted as is the 7 Axion SL.

I love the finish of the 7 the smooth brushed look is a thing of beauty. Problem is I have never seen an IF with a brushed finish.

Anyone out there got any comments.. Please don't suggest other makers I have already done all my homework and these two are among the ones that the Shop that measured me for have a lot of experience with.

Anyone got a brushed finish Indy Fab ??

If it's a wash and Seven can do straight stays, then buy from the company you are most comfy with. And for the comment on the 'why the bike shop is involved'? Well, they 'might' be a good source of info, and if a decent one, somebody you can trust, altho some see 'bikeshop' as a four letter word.

Customer sees one or 2 or 3 frames/bikes. High end bike shop sees lots and deals with the manufacturer constantly. Something one customer doesn't do, frequency, sees the good and others.

Seven has had a bit more stability in it's history than IF. Owner/founder knows a thing or 2 about titanium. Not a fan of blended ti/carbon frames, Seven being one of the first to do this.

IF cut their teeth on steel..not to say they don't know titanium.

[Lionel]

TK has very stringent ideas of what he wants bikes to look like. His latest ones have a baseball bat top tube.. fatter at the head tube.

And this is a very good thing.

It's not about the look, it is about the ride. There is a reason TK only does it that way.

[danielpack22@ma]

I believe this is an example of a brushed ti IF.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/12433469273_357aa74f0c_c.jpg

[danielpack22@ma]

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7310/12433471123_b0f8cb3f11_c.jpg

Photos from here - https://www.flickr.com/photos/8772455@N05/sets/72157640775821074

[cfox]

Mod 6 "Please don't suggest other makers I have already done all my homework and these two are among the ones that the Shop that measured me for have a lot of experience with."

This is from my OP

Potatochip "Well I don't agree that one brushed finish is the same as the next. have you ever looked at a Lynskey next to a Seven ?? Huge difference.."

This reply is from way back in the body of the thread.

My friend, you need to calm down. Stop chiding people who are trying to help you. Not everyone reads every post of every thread. Sometimes people overlook a prior post. It happens. If you can't understand that, maybe you shouldn't be asking strangers on the internet advice on personal aesthetic choices.

That said, brushed finishes may not be all the same, but I can promise you a brushed finish from IF will be perfect, like all of their finishes. If you can't find a picture of a brushed Ti IF, why don't you do a search and find examples of IF's brushed stainless bikes? I think you will find they are beautiful.

I wonder when IF started offering brushed Ti bikes? I ordered mine a couple of years ago and they wouldn't do anything other than a peened finish.

[mod6]

Mod 6 "Please don't suggest other makers I have already done all my homework and these two are among the ones that the Shop that measured me for have a lot of experience with."

This is from my OP

Potatochip "Well I don't agree that one brushed finish is the same as the next. have you ever looked at a Lynskey next to a Seven ?? Huge difference.."

This reply is from way back in the body of the thread.

Owned both a Lynskey and a Seven in brushed and have had them side by side. Agree with Potachip not much difference. Again go with the builder who you feel most comfortable with and will ride with the qualities your looking for.

[tigoat]

I wouldn't want one from either builder even if it were free but this is just me. Whoever you go with, make sure they weld those damn water bottle mounts, as those rivets are not worth a penny.

[tigoat]

Shot peening is not really a finish, it is a specialized process to remove residual stress from the weld joints. Shot peening is not the same as bead blasting like those used by Moots and others. Ideally, you want your frame to shot peen first after welding and then do a secondary final aesthetic finish on it.

[bluesea]

Owned both a Lynskey and a Seven in brushed and have had them side by side. Agree with Potachip not much difference. Again go with the builder who you feel most comfortable with and will ride with the qualities your looking for.


There must be a great deal of variation, because the newish Lynskey I've seen up close showed a really coarse and sloppy brushing.

[Tyler Evans]

If your only two options are Seven and IF I'd go for Seven. You really can't go wrong either way though. I'm sure either company will make your dream come true.

[cfox]

Shot peening is not really a finish, it is a specialized process to remove residual stress from the weld joints. Shot peening is not the same as bead blasting like those used by Moots and others. Ideally, you want your frame to shot peen first after welding and then do a secondary final aesthetic finish on it.

According to IF, if you refinish a shot peened frame, you offset the strengthening effects of the shot peening process you did in the first place. The only way to do it would be to mask off the shot peened joints and only refinish the tubes. That may look funny or cool depending on your taste.

[oldpotatoe]

If your only two options are Seven and IF the go for Seven.

Little bad blood between you 2 at Firefly and IF?

Not asking for dirty laundry but some similar with Moots and Erikson..

[RedRider]

If your only two options are Seven and IF the go for Seven.

I would have never expected that reply! .)

My suggestion to the OP is that since you are going custom you should get exactly what you want regarding design, construction and finish.

[Tyler Evans]

Little bad blood between you 2 at Firefly and IF?

Yeah. There was but it's all good now... that has no bearing on my suggestion though, just a personal opinion... grain of salt as they say.

[mod6]

There must be a great deal of variation, because the newish Lynskey I've seen up close showed a really coarse and sloppy brushing.

Probably was the coarser of the two brushes finishes they offer.

[sandyrs]

I'll put in another vote for a Seven, based largely but not solely on the fact that Rob is an exceptionally nice person with as much experience in custom Ti as anyone.

(Disclaimer: I own a Honey, which is fabricated by Seven)

[polyhistoric]

I'm lucky to be in Boston, surrounded by all this lovely ti. I agree that well-finished brushed ti is both a lot of work (ask the poor finishers) and light years beyond a cursory Chinese or Tennessee finish I have seen on other frames.

I bought a Seven earlier this year. I love the finishes, paint and style of the IFs and would gladly buy a steel IF. But, their primary ti guys stayed in the hometown are crushing it at Firefly. Seven has the history, experience and tooling to work with ti in a truly custom way - not to mention heaps of ti tubing in every gauge for ride and butting profiles. Love the way mine came out.

Swoopy stays have a function for me and avoid possible heel-strike on the stays. Also allows some fatter tire clearance.

Good luck - you probably can't go wrong with either frame as long as the fit is right.

[bluesea]

I was a bit flabbergasted when some of the IF crew decided to quit before the move. Pretty much lost interest at that point, because significant or not it seemed like a loss in continuity.

[verticaldoug]

Why did you bother to reply..

Because these threads always go the same way. You can obsess over the little details, but either bike will ride just fine. Heck, since Tyler chimed in, why not get a Firefly. I am pretty sure Signature will be happy to order you a Firefly. The head badge is cool in a modern industrialized way. I've never seen a Firefly I did not like.

Why not get a Seven 650b bike? Justin at Signature has one. It is an absolute riot of a bike plus you can go ride the ···· out of it on all the great dirt roads and paths in Westchester/Putnam/Dutchess counties.

[malcolm]

Tom Kellogg.

Open and shut case....next.

This. If you are considering seven, if I'm not mistaken they are welding Tom's Ti frames. I would much rather be fit by Tom than any bike shop guru.

[jr59]

Well I don't agree that one brushed finish is the same as the next. have you ever looked at a Lynskey next to a Seven ?? Huge difference..

Of course I thought about going to TK but a friend of mine recently did that and TK has very stringent ideas of what he wants bikes to look like. His latest ones have a baseball bat top tube.. fatter at the head tube. I am not into that. Plus they are all welded up at Seven anyway..and they use the same seat stays..

Thanks for your words Fuzzalow.. The place that measured me is well recognized as a top design studio in NYC I know many many people who have used them. Here in NYC you kind of have to go the dealer route as most builders are at least 4 to 5 hour away.

Well, TK did ask me what kind of seat stays I wanted. Don't know if he would have done something with the TT or not. But it's your bike.

This. If you are considering seven, if I'm not mistaken they are welding Tom's Ti frames. I would much rather be fit by Tom than any bike shop guru.

see above

[pdmtong]

If your only two options are Seven and IF the go for Seven.

Little bad blood between you 2 at Firefly and IF?

Not asking for dirty laundry but some similar with Moots and Erikson..

Yeah. There is... but that has no bearing on my suggestion.

I was a bit flabbergasted when some of the IF crew decided to quit before the move. Pretty much lost interest at that point, because significant or not it seemed like a loss in continuity.

Folks participating in both places know the story so we needn't go further. I would only say this happens over and over in Silicon Valley. Talent has different aspirations than management and spin off to create their own startup.

A large value in either board is awareness beyond the usual default choices
If it's not a slam dunk deciding IF or seven then open up the field

[Tyler Evans]

Folks participating in both places know the story so we needn't go further. I would only say this happens over and over in Silicon Valley. Talent has different aspirations than management and spin off to create their own startup.

A large value in either board is awareness beyond the usual default choices
If it's not a slam dunk deciding IF or seven then open up the field

Excellent moderation.

[old fat man]

I'd be shocked if you convince 7 to build a bike with straight stays. Much less shocked if you can get IF to do a brushed finish. The marketing language about shot peening, bead blasting, and brushing is silliness. None of those "treatments" will deliver anything other than a different aesthetic. It's a bike, not an airplane.

I wouldn't want one from either builder even if it were free but this is just me. Whoever you go with, make sure they weld those damn water bottle mounts, as those rivets are not worth a penny.

Agreed. Have replaced 7 or 8 of those stupid little rivnuts between my Seven and my father's Seven. They use 'em on steel/painted bikes too. Not a fan.

If it's a wash and Seven can do straight stays, then buy from the company you are most comfy with. And for the comment on the 'why the bike shop is involved'? Well, they 'might' be a good source of info, and if a decent one, somebody you can trust, altho some see 'bikeshop' as a four letter word.

Customer sees one or 2 or 3 frames/bikes. High end bike shop sees lots and deals with the manufacturer constantly. Something one customer doesn't do, frequency, sees the good and others.

Seven has had a bit more stability in it's history than IF. Owner/founder knows a thing or 2 about titanium. Not a fan of blended ti/carbon frames, Seven being one of the first to do this.

IF cut their teeth on steel..not to say they don't know titanium.

You mean the former founders of IF, right? Very little of those who cut their teeth on any material at IF still remain at IF

[soulspinner]

Yeah. There is... but that has no bearing on my suggestion.

this thread just got more interesting.............:hello:

[xeladragon]

OP, why are you so opposed to swoopy seat stays? Just curious.

Currently, seems like you're not 110% happy with either Seven (seat stays) or IF (finish). If that's the case, then why not Firefly? Pretty sure Signature can set you up with whoever you want.

[FlashUNC]

Rob Vandermark served The Boss all sorts of fancy coffees at Ride Studio Cafe and bought me about an hour of ogling their awesome stuff that might have otherwise had her looking at her watch and pulling me out the door.

For that completely arbitrary and nonsensical reason, I'd go with the Seven.

(Fwiw, the Sevens they had there were gorgeous.)

[velomonkey]

Yeah. There is... but that has no bearing on my suggestion.

As to the OP - I went brushed on my ti frame too.

As to this sub-thread. That's the truth spoken from a great builder - it's why I went firefly (firefly brushed :)

[UKBROOKLYN]

OP, why are you so opposed to swoopy seat stays? Just curious.

Currently, seems like you're not 110% happy with either Seven (seat stays) or IF (finish). If that's the case, then why not Firefly? Pretty sure Signature can set you up with whoever you want.

Some people like .. oh dear I was going to say something that would probably come of really bad.. Um lets see.. so I will say it this way.... some like a little cushin for the pushin... I am not a fan of the look or the feel. I like the straight stay firmness that the rear triangle on my Merlin offers and I like the way it looks..

Of course Firefly is number one.. but the lead time is way beyond anything I can handle. If I am going to have this much dough tied up in a frame I need to be riding it and liquidating the current steed.

[old fat man]

Some people like .. oh dear I was going to say something that would probably come of really bad.. Um lets see.. so I will say it this way.... some like a little cushin for the pushin... I am not a fan of the look or the feel. I like the straight stay firmness that the rear triangle on my Merlin offers and I like the way it looks..

Of course Firefly is number one.. but the lead time is way beyond anything I can handle. If I am going to have this much dough tied up in a frame I need to be riding it and liquidating the current steed.

Saying the curved stays would be less firm than your decades old Merlin is laughable. You like the looks of straight stays, so get straight stays from a builder willing to do straight stays. No way in hell that the curved stays of a Seven couldn't be equal to (or more than likely) stiffer than your Merlin. The tube properties (thickness and diameter) has way more to do with it than whether or not they are curved.

[UKBROOKLYN]

Saying the curved stays would be less firm than your decades old Merlin is laughable. You like the looks of straight stays, so get straight stays from a builder willing to do straight stays. No way in hell that the curved stays of a Seven couldn't be equal to (or more than likely) stiffer than your Merlin. The tube properties (thickness and diameter) has way more to do with it than whether or not they are curved.

I am only going on what Seven says about their rear end.. If thats laughable then turn your smile toward them. I actually don't buy the soft rear end theory either, seems that tires and wheels have way more effect on the ride..

I believe they are going to do the straight stays for me.. So hopefully after a bit more communication I will place the order,, This thread has been interesting where it brought up some inconsistencies in what IF may or may not be doing/going through as a company. Certainly it would seem a smarter move to go with a company that will still be with us years down the road should something come up.

Just to answer some previous commenters who do not know the NYC scene.. The bike shop I am using is not a "bike shop" in the LBS sense. It is one of the premier local custom bike studios. And many many people in the club I belong to and several of my cycling acquaintances have had great experiences with them. So please don't worry.

[oldpotatoe]

I'd be shocked if you convince 7 to build a bike with straight stays. Much less shocked if you can get IF to do a brushed finish. The marketing language about shot peening, bead blasting, and brushing is silliness. None of those "treatments" will deliver anything other than a different aesthetic. It's a bike, not an airplane.



Agreed. Have replaced 7 or 8 of those stupid little rivnuts between my Seven and my father's Seven. They use 'em on steel/painted bikes too. Not a fan.



You mean the former founders of IF, right? Very little of those who cut their teeth on any material at IF still remain at IF

copy to Tyler.

[fuzzalow]

If your only two options are Seven and IF the go for Seven. You really can't go wrong either way though.

Whoa, that comment was taking a turn for the cheap...

Yeah. There is... but that has no bearing on my suggestion.

OK, if you say so...

I am not plugged in to any of the backstory of the gossip and lingering resentments, if any (nod nod wink wink) as to what happened at IF. So in fairness to Mr. Evans, sometimes nefarious things happen and the barbs directed at IF aren't forgotten and the ill feelings are deserved. But from me here in the peanut gallery, it sounds like a sucker punch cheap shot. IF doesn't participate here to defend themselves. And frankly, this sounds beneath a builder whom has exhibited the level of craft as found in Firefly. Doubly true if the managers at IF then are no longer at IF now.

Just my 2 cents at a keeping it fair and balanced.

[mjb266]

You mean the former founders of IF, right? Very little of those who cut their teeth on any material at IF still remain at IF

IF makes a kick ass bike. The hands that make that bike may have changed over the years, but that doesn't negate their ability to put tubes together and finish those tubes in a way that puts them right up there with their peers.

There is a history with any builder that includes a lineage that is important to some.

Moots & Eriksen
IF & Firefly
Dean & Mosaic
Strong & Aliance
Seven & 3Tfab

If the personality assembling your bike is important, then so be it. If the personalities putting those tubes together isn't a factor, then IF is as strong a player in ti as any of their contemporaries. Don't let the interpersonal BS factor into your decision if it hasn't up until this point. You're in a win-win on this one.

I love mine
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-o9IEZkLXPBo/U5KpWhHEJAI/AAAAAAAAGtc/O1DXAFCp3wY/s1200/IMG_5111.JPG

[sandyrs]

I'll say this... when it's done, you had better post this bike in the custom gallery. :)

[soulspinner]

I'll say this... when it's done, you had better post this bike in the custom gallery. :)

+1 you had me at ti...........

[weisan]

Sandy pal is right, after all the dust that's being kicked up, we expect to see Miss World to emerge out of the smoke and walking down the catwalk...

UK pal, no hard feelings... You did what you have to do with your hard earned money and dream bike.

Mjb pal... now THAT's the bike that can go anywhere do anything as one desired. Oh, btw, thanks for certifying the safety margin of my Waterford.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=159682
See, if you approach it from the left side, it looks perfectly "normal" :D

[avalonracing]

I am only going on what Seven says about their rear end.. If thats laughable then turn your smile toward them. I actually don't buy the soft rear end theory either, seems that tires and wheels have way more effect on the ride..



In all fairness I would say that Seven knows a little bit about bike design and properties. Also they are taking time/money in taking straight tubes and bending them into that shape, so there is a reason.

[UKBROOKLYN]

But it wont be as a Miss World contestant... I always give my bikes male names.. Cause they are kind of like Mans best friend.. and they are are supposed to be boy dogs.. Like Fido and Rusty.. Don't worry I have never named a bike after a dog.

Ok just so you don't need to ask.. My Merlin is called Hubert Carruthers and my Rudge is Called Arthur Kent,

Don't ask.. just look at my handle.. UK brooklyn..

[pbarry]

IF makes a kick ass bike. The hands that make that bike may have changed over the years, but that doesn't negate their ability to put tubes together and finish those tubes in a way that puts them right up there with their peers.

There is a history with any builder that includes a lineage that is important to some.

Moots & Eriksen
IF & Firefly
Dean & Mosaic
Strong & Aliance
Seven & 3Tfab

If the personality assembling your bike is important, then so be it. If the personalities putting those tubes together isn't a factor, then IF is as strong a player in ti as any of their contemporaries. Don't let the interpersonal BS factor into your decision if it hasn't up until this point. You're in a win-win on this one.

I love mine
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-o9IEZkLXPBo/U5KpWhHEJAI/AAAAAAAAGtc/O1DXAFCp3wY/s1200/IMG_5111.JPG

Tell more about 3tfab, don't know about them.

[happycampyer]

Tell more about 3tfab, don't know about them.333fab is Max Kulloway, who fabricates for himself under the 333fab brand, welds ti bikes for Steve Hampsten, and now for Davidson as well. Max used to weld for Seven.

333fab (http://www.333fab.com/)

[merlincustom1]

I have a '99 Merlin Extralight. It's not at all flexy. If I were buying Ti today I'd go with Firefly, Kellogg, or Seven.

[old fat man]

333fab is Max Kulloway, who fabricates for himself under the 333fab brand, welds ti bikes for Steve Hampsten, and now for Davidson as well. Max used to weld for Seven.

333fab (http://www.333fab.com/)

Max is the best. He welded the only Seven I had that I liked. Ask his former peers at Seven, many of them will tell you he is the finest ti welder they've worked with.

I bet he'd build a bike with straight stays

[Tony]

Max is the best. He welded the only Seven I had that I liked. Ask his former peers at Seven, many of them will tell you he is the finest ti welder they've worked with.

I bet he'd build a bike with straight stays

I think I may have found my next bike.
Thanks!

[Mikej]

I'd like to see a seven with straight seat stays - I don't know Rob, but Im not sure he would allow it. That being said- I would never equate a formed stay as less capable than a straight, in fact, they should actually be stiffer. Seven does offer 1" straight chainstays now. As for the MOots Eriksen-I have met and talked to Kent plenty and he is the most genuinely nice person, I think he just wanted a change, could you imagine mittering every Moots ever made? He did it.

[UKBROOKLYN]

I'd like to see a seven with straight seat stays - I don't know Rob, but Im not sure he would allow it. That being said- I would never equate a formed stay as less capable than a straight, in fact, they should actually be stiffer. Seven does offer 1" straight chainstays now. As for the MOots Eriksen-I have met and talked to Kent plenty and he is the most genuinely nice person, I think he just wanted a change, could you imagine mittering every Moots ever made? He did it.

Where did you read about 1" straight chain stays... BTW I got an email saying they could do the straight seat stays..

[beeatnik]

But it wont be as a Miss World contestant... I always give my bikes male names.. Cause they are kind of like Mans best friend.. and they are are supposed to be boy dogs.. Like Fido and Rusty.. Don't worry I have never named a bike after a dog.

Ok just so you don't need to ask.. My Merlin is called Hubert Carruthers and my Rudge is Called Arthur Kent,

Don't ask.. just look at my handle.. UK brooklyn..

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=145619

So, I always read your SN as UNBrooklyn. As in I'm a "non-hipster in Brooklyn." Goes to show my biases. Kinda funny tho cos a few weeks back, pdmtong realized that the Happy Camper is actually the Happy Campagnolo, um, er. I mean who wouldn't be a happy camper if they owned as many premium Ti bikes as the population of Rhode Island.

[slinkywizard]

I can't find the thread, but Craig Gaulzetti (aka "Jerk"), who recently joined Seven's team, had a bike built with straight and fat chain- and seat stays. Perhaps shoot him an email...

[mcteague]

My 10 year old Axiom has the curved SS and CSs. My previous, stock, Spectrum Ti had them straight and I really prefer that look. However, I am a believer that, once you pick a builder, it is best to let them design it how best suits your desired ride. I also have a difficult time believing those fat stays really flex enough to affect the ride quality.

The 622 SLX is my latest Seven and those carbon seat stays are straight. It has an even smoother ride but I'm sure that is down to tube stiffness more than the lack of curves. I have always suspected Seven really puts in the SS curves to make their Ti frames look different than all the others.

Tim

[weisan]

UK pal, it finally dawned on me after all these discussions that what you really need (I know what you want) is a unique Ti bike like my old Serotta Hors categorie, in which case, the person you really want to talk to is Kelly Bedford. :banana:

He's the only person on the planet that has a realistic chance of delivering and meeting your high expectations.:eek:

http://alicehui.com/serotta/hors_cat/hors_cat_no_topos.jpg

[rwsaunders]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Carl Strong when discussing titanium frames. I believe that he uses a glass bead blasted finish.

[Mikej]

Seven has a blog with the jerks bike features by the 1" stays. Also vsalon has a thread.also the seven dealer should know.thread is titled hulking chainstays october 2014. My ERIKSEN has 1" stays and straight seat stays.

[UKBROOKLYN]

I did find the Jerk pictures.. He has 1" chain stays but still has the bent seat stays. The Merlin i have right now has 7/8 straight Chain stays and 5/8 straight seat stays. And I love that combo.

To anyone coming late in the game I have done my research and as stated in the OP this thread was about 7 vs IF.. I have already honed it down and have begun conversations with both companies aimed at a decision by mid week.

[PaMtbRider]

To anyone coming late in the game I have done my research and as stated in the OP this thread was about 7 vs IF.. I have already honed it down and have begun conversations with both companies aimed at a decision by mid week.

But.. But.. You should buy what I think is best for you, not what you think is best for you!:banana:

[Jeff N.]

I'd say the decision is simple: If you want plain ol' unimaginative, straight, same-as-everybody-else's seat stays, go with IF. If you want beautiful, artfully curved, well-thought-out, more-labor-intensive, unique seat stays, go with SEVEN. Glad to be of help. -Jeff N.

[UKBROOKLYN]

I'd say the decision is simple: If you want plain ol' straight seat stays, go with IF. If you want beautiful, artfully curved seat stays, go with SEVEN. Glad to be of help. -Jeff N.

I think we know what Jeff likes...

Or one could say .. If you want fussy over designed seat stays go with Seven. If you want Classicaly Elegant seat stays go with IF... ;-)

[hockeybike]

It's your money, get what you want, otherwise you'll likely always wonder 'what if' (no pun intended).

At the same time, each bike is a builder's rolling advertisement for itself, and so can understand Seven's reticence. The swoopy stays are a trademark at this point (it seems, at least), and so asking Seven to do a bike sans swoopy stays is like asking Nike to sell a shoe without a swoosh. Sure, they can do it, but then it's not the shoe Nike wants the world to see. Gotta pay more for smaller logos/branding, generally.

[crownjewelwl]

If u go Indy fab are you thinking the block or script decals?

[UKBROOKLYN]

More decisions..

If I go IF.. I am thinking.. Brushed TI White script decal, fork outside painted silver inside black with silver script... silver headset stem seatpost..

[avalonracing]

The script is nicer than those Clown Letters that everyone seems to think are so cool.

[Jeff N.]

The script is nicer than those Clown Letters that everyone seems to think are so cool.How about SCRIPT on the drive side and CIRCUS CLOWN on the left?

[Peter P.]

The script is nicer than those Clown Letters that everyone seems to think are so cool.

That's it-if I ever buy an IF, I'm gettin' it with Clown Letters just to annoy you.

[avalonracing]

That's it-if I ever buy an IF, I'm gettin' it with Clown Letters just to annoy you.

Damn. I knew that would backfire.

[velomonkey]

Bro, get the seven, but with straight stays but get seven to do their logo in clown letters!!!!

You gotta roll different bro, you have taken up way too much of my time telling me you like straight stays - this bike better be named Sid - as in Sid Vicious cause it's punk as flunk.

[UKBROOKLYN]

Bro, get the seven, but with straight stays but get seven to do their logo in clown letters!!!!

You gotta roll different bro, you have taken up way too much of my time telling me you like straight stays - this bike better be named Sid - as in Sid Vicious cause it's punk as flunk.

Can you say UNSUBSCRIBE ?? it's right there in the email.. So sorry to bother you

[SpeedyChix]

Straight stays, some shiny bits and shot peened finish (not the finish you want to see though). Rides all surfaces nicely. Keeping company with a pack of Merlins.

Sounds like the info you're getting back from both builders that you'll be able match up your desired aesthetics with either builder. IF is accustomed to building with straight stays so perhaps more in tune with final ride characteristics?

Whichever builder you go with, make sure the tube diameters are in keeping with the ride quality you're after, especialy if it's a ride similar to your existing Merlin. For example, 1" stays would ride quite differently.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t137/RiverKnife/Forum%20Help%20Images/P1050013_zps2985f188.jpg

[tigoat]

Whichever builder you go with, make sure the tube diameters are in keeping with the ride quality you're after, especialy if it's a ride similar to your existing Merlin. For example, 1" stays would ride quite differently.


It makes virtual no different whether it has 1" diameter chainstays or 7/8" chainstays on the road, it is only different on paper. Bill Holland has been building frames with 1" diameter chainstays for years, long before most builders know how to deal with it. I had Bill built a frame with 1" diameter chainstays for me 10+years ago, and he was offering this option long before I discovered him. I also had Moots built a custom frame with 7/8" diameter chainstays about the same time. I rode both frames religiously for many years, with many sprinting and climbing glories, and I would be lying if I could tell you which one is really "stiffer". Boy I hate this word, as it is most abused word in cycling. Of course, nowadays most Ti builders are getting catching on, offering 1" diameter chainstays. Even with that, most builders don't know how to do it right, as dimpling the chainstays too deep will negate the perceived benefit of the beefier tube diameter.

[DRZRM]

They are fat chain stays, but the seat stays are curved as far as I can tell. Nice bike though.

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/new-bike-38128.html

I can't find the thread, but Craig Gaulzetti (aka "Jerk"), who recently joined Seven's team, had a bike built with straight and fat chain- and seat stays. Perhaps shoot him an email...

[UKBROOKLYN]

I believe the Merlin Works bikes were made with 1" stays.. ?? My one has the 7/8 ones and they are totally adequate, along with the 5/8 seat stays it gives an elegant back end. The three other tubes are 1 3/8 or about 35mm in todays money.. double butted.. I will be talking to IF and Seven this week and whoever seems more willing/interested in reproducing what I am after is getting my vote/money..

[bluesea]

Had a chance to look at a Seven today. Not OOS main tubes but with 1" CS. Very nice. I can see how the ST *could* be an acquired taste.

[woodworker]

They are fat chain stays, but the seat stays are curved as far as I can tell. Nice bike though.

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/new-bike-38128.html

There was some debate about this bike, and even Seven got it wrong on the blog at its website. See the following entry: http://www.sevencycles.com/blog/2014/10/02/hulking-chain-stays/

In other words, these are straight one inch chainstays with a small dimple for additional tire clearance per the customer's request.

[GSmith]

UKBrooklyn,

My name is Gary Smith and I have been the owner of IF since February 2008. I'd be happy to talk to you about your decision process, gary@ifbikes.com.

You are in good hands with the folks at Signature Cycles, and you can't make a bad decision. We'd be honored to have your business, but Seven also make a great bike and Rob is a wonderful guy, having graciously helped me on several occasions.

As for finishes, since 2000 IF has predominantly shot-peened it's ti bikes for two principal reasons; 1) it is a proven technique to increase the fatigue life of titanium, and 2) it eliminates a dirty, labor intensive process from the shop. As to the first, one can debate whether or not this is necessary in a bicycle frame, and detractors can point to thousands of non shot peened ti bikes doing just fine after a decade or more of hard use. The second speaks for itself... polishing bike frames all day is a tough job, and not one generally viewed as desirable.

As to why we would offer to polish a ti bike when we promote shot peening as a better alternative, well... chalk that one up to a persistent customer a few years back, and our experience polishing many hundreds of stainless steel bikes since launching the SSR in 2007. Or said another way, not everyone wants belts and suspenders, likes the shot peened aesthetics, and we have developed some very good in-house polishing/brushing skills.

The IF ti Deluxe MTB that won the NAHBS 2014 Best Finish award had a brushed rear end. The photos posted earlier in this thread of a UK customer's ti Crown Jewel with a brushed 3/4 rear end illustrate our finish nicely.

To the Paceline Community,

I'd like to say hello. and briefly introduce myself. I have not participated here for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is time. I am the CEO of a large, global company, and in my spare time still do my best to help my wife and the crew with IF and BaileyWorks. I am also a father of two great kids, and anyone who has worn that hat knows that it is the one that matters most, and also demands the most. Lastly, I value my health and the friends that I have gained through cycling, so I try to ride my bike whenever and wherever I can. Net for me is that internet time is scarce.

While here, I'd like to clarify a few points that get lost in the polemic over IF's move to Newmarket, NH.

First, I was asked to invest in IF at the end of 2007 to save it from insolvency. I wasn't looking to buy a bicycle company. At the time, only one of the original six founders was still present, the other five having long since moved on to other pursuits.

In June of 2011 I moved IF to a renovated mill in Newmarket, New Hampshire. Many folks chose not to make that move because it did not work for them, such is life. Some left well, some didn't.

What gets lost in individual interpretations of the move is who actually did make the move, and who came back to IF because they were excited about the future, and thus who is actually at IF making bikes today. You can all go to the website and read the bios if you choose, but suffice it to say that the individuals cutting tubes, welding, finishing, and painting have all been doing it for IF for a decade or more, and our lead welder was doing it at Merlin before IF.

I am extremely proud of this crew and what they are capable of doing every day. In 2014 alone, Complex Magazine named us a "brand to watch", we won the Best Finish at NAHBS, completing what I call a Royal Flush of awards at that show; having won for type of bike ('07 Track), type of material ('09 Carbon), type of construction ('11 Tig), and finally finish this year. Last month we were asked to have two of our bikes on display in PPG Paint's SEMA booth. Being displayed alongside the most talented automotive finishers in the market was both an honor and a humbling experience at the same time. The level of talent in that space compared to bicycles is insane.

2015 will mark IF's 20th year in business. In early June we will be hosting a "homecoming" in conjunction with our 4th annual RAID Rockingham ride, where we will be celebrating not just our milestone, but a group of independent makers of surfboards, clothing, skateboards, motorcycles, and other quality products.

Please come and join us, meet the crew, and see where we call home. Most important, come to ride.

Cheers,

Gary

[soulspinner]

Interesting thread. Thanks for chiming in Gary.

[weisan]

Gary-pal, I like what you said. Your heart is obviously in the right places. Thank you.

[avalonracing]

Yes, very cool of you to say Hello, Gary... and also to give a nod to Seven in your post.
(Sorry about the "Clown Letters" comment regarding the traditional logo. I know you didn't design it.)

[UKBROOKLYN]

Gary thanks for a great little essay on IF.. Clears up a few questions.

[tumbler]

This has been a very interesting thread and thanks to Gary for chiming in.

UKBROOKLYN - I think we met twice... over near the ranger station in NJ and at the deli in Piermont. I was on my Lynskey and we chatted about your Merlin and search for your next ride. Just wanted to say hey and good luck in the search. Hope to see you out there again... and riding something incredible once the decision is complete.

[UKBROOKLYN]

Yep I remember.. still got a few memory cells firing in my old head.
A bunch of us started the Gruppo Sportivio rides for Gran Fondo NY last Sunday. Brrrrrr coldest run from GWB to Nyack and back yet

whatever I decide I will have it by the GFNY in May..

[velomonkey]

As some may or may not know - I have a firefly (polished). I was considering a IF ti or Firefly and started my process about 2 years ago. I called both companies and spoke with Kevin at firefly - another time spoke with Jamie as Kevin was out. At IF I called and Gary answered and talked to me for about an hour all while their Holiday party was going on. Gary also offered for me to come to their location and try a stainless bike they had in my size.

It was a really hard decision - while hard it was also good to know that I had some solid choices. I ultimately went firefly with their longer timeframe as I had an IF Crown Jewel back in 2000 as part of a sponsorship and wish I never got rid of it - so it was cool to know the same people who welded my circa 2000 IF would weld my firefly. Either way, both would have been solid choices.

I also teach at Yale School of Management and have sold my own company to new owners. I can tell you both from an academic research POV and my own experience it almost never works with old owners and new owners. Especially if the company is started from the ground up and established for a period of time. Outside of IF and other similar situations the old owner and new owner might even get along - but within the confines of a dynamic company it hardly ever works.

I wouldn't say I know Tyler, Jamie and Kevin well, but I have spent a fair bit of time with them and know them to be outstanding people who are completely committed to a high-end, durable, beautiful, custom product and, most importantly, they work hard to ensure complete client satisfaction.

I know Gary at IF less, but given the time he spoke with me and his previous post I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. We are lucky as consumers to have such great products with decent people. It's good to see this rather than the fiasco that was Ira's post from a few months ago.

UKBROOKLYN - this has got to be, for me at least, the longest post I have ever read and contributed to where there is only the thought of a bike. I better see some detailed pictures and detailed reviews!!!!!!!

[AngryScientist]

whatever I decide I will have it by the GFNY in May..

sweet, i'd love to check it out. both the gfny and the new steed.

[Pschnei3]

thanks for the write up Gary. hope to hear more from you.

[saab2000]

When I got my Indy Fab a bit more than a year ago I too asked about the finish as I like brushed. Gary told me that they like the bead blasted and told me why and I didn't think about it too much more. It came bead blasted and I paid for some paint from their paint shop to make it 'mine' and the paint is beautiful.

I'm very pleased with how my Gravel Royale turned out. It was on time, on spec and on budget. No surprises. The process was professionally handled and communication very good. In other words, they return phone calls and answer e-mails!

I have far fewer miles on it than I'd like but that's no fault of the bike. I can't speak about the others but my experience with Independent Fabrication has been nothing but overwhelmingly positive and I don't really think much about the finish now that I own it. I just ride it.

Here's a pic of mine - it's got something of a champagne tint to it, but that might just be the light. All in all, it's a pleasant finish.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3851/14743945450_294691afde_b.jpg

[Craig Ryan]

Last month we were asked to have two of our bikes on display in PPG Paint's SEMA booth. Being displayed alongside the most talented automotive finishers in the market was both an honor and a humbling experience at the same time. The level of talent in that space compared to bicycles is insane.

Congratulations! I didn't know this Gary. I've seen some great paint come out of your shop.

[potatochip]

I have a shot peened IF with the largest tubes that they could put on a road bike. I think the shot peened finish looks way better than polished and agree that it almost comes out champagne-like.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/10/d9ac610ac791cadf8c7bc063f27bb37e.jpg

[Mikej]

I have a shot peened IF with the largest tubes that they could put on a road bike. I think the shot peened finish looks way better than polished and agree that it almost comes out champagne-like.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/10/d9ac610ac791cadf8c7bc063f27bb37e.jpg

mmmm mmmm

[soulspinner]

That thing is NICE..

[tumbler]

That thing is NICE..

+1. That thing is beautiful.

[AngryScientist]

I have already honed it down and have begun conversations with both companies aimed at a decision by mid week.

it's wednesday afternoon....

[the bottle ride]

I am not sure what will happen after UKbk gets his dream Ti bike- it will certainly be the end of which ti bike to own threads.

Love IF and seven- can't go wrong either way- IF for the win.

[corky]

I've owned 6 IF's .(so far)...... 3 TI, 1 Steel, 1 SS and one carbon/TI mix.....

1 was pre owned, the other 5 built for me, 4 were Somerville, 2 post Somerville

they all had one thing in common........they did not disappoint in fit, design, execution or appearance.

Everyone I ever interacted with at iF impressed...... Gary Smith especially.

seven, Firefly....... All those Boston Boys make fine bicyces

[beeatnik]

Potatochip, I like your style.

[the bottle ride]

I love potatoe chip's bike- I have a ti IF but that one makes mine seem delicate.

[holliscx]

I have a shot peened IF with the largest tubes that they could put on a road bike. I think the shot peened finish looks way better than polished and agree that it almost comes out champagne-like.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/10/d9ac610ac791cadf8c7bc063f27bb37e.jpg

^ little ring just saying

[avalonracing]

Looks great without the clown logo!

[djg]

Well I don't agree that one brushed finish is the same as the next. have you ever looked at a Lynskey next to a Seven ?? Huge difference..

Of course I thought about going to TK but a friend of mine recently did that and TK has very stringent ideas of what he wants bikes to look like. His latest ones have a baseball bat top tube.. fatter at the head tube. I am not into that. Plus they are all welded up at Seven anyway..and they use the same seat stays..

Thanks for your words Fuzzalow.. The place that measured me is well recognized as a top design studio in NYC I know many many people who have used them. Here in NYC you kind of have to go the dealer route as most builders are at least 4 to 5 hour away.

WRT Tom & Spectrum: I don't think one can do better, but one can do different -- if you've seen a bunch of his Ti frames (maybe a couple in person and a bunch more in pictures) and it's not the look you want, you have every right to go elsewhere, of course -- certainly there are other people building/producing great Ti frames. I love the bike he built for me (and I'm partial to his paint work -- he'll really do what you want there, and do it beautifully, and I often like Ti frames that are painted but still show a decent amount of Ti). I love mine, but you don't have to, and your expensive custom bike should be what you want it to be.

WRT the "they are all welded up at Seven anyway" -- if that's just about stays you don't want, it's your call, of course. But as fine a bike as Seven might build for you, it's going to be a different bike. Tom can work from your measurements, or measurements plus pictures, but he's famous for his personal fittings and, whichever way you go, his frame design will be his -- he'll spec each and every pipe on the thing for you, as well as the overall geo. And he'll finish the bike. It will not be a Seven; it will be a Spectrum.

Seven, IF, Bedford, Strong, DeSalvo, Firefly, Moots . . . I guess I'd be inclined to find a builder with an agreeable approach (or aesthetic) and have the builder design the bike, whether you are getting fitted in person or by having a shop take measurements (and perhaps note various issues).

[Corso]

I’m curious as to why Rob (His Ti experience is without question) is hesitant to building a custom bike with straight stays for you?

[potatochip]

^ little ring just saying


You don't need the big ring to ride in your kitchen...

[soulspinner]

You don't need the big ring to ride in your kitchen...

:p

[nighthawk]

you don't need the big ring to ride in your kitchen...

boosh!

[GSmith]

Looks great without the clown logo!

Alright, it was funny the first time, now you're pushing it!

Think of it as the happy logo, in a Vegas kind of way, not creepy clowns.

[christian]

Embrace your inner Juggalo. Faygo for everyone! :)

[holliscx]

You don't need the big ring to ride in your kitchen...

The 6.7s come in handy steering around your sleek white appliances?

[happycampyer]

Embrace your inner Juggalo. Faygo for everyone! :)

Maybe Rapha and Hatchet Gear can team up for a limited-edition run?

[UKBROOKLYN]

I have a great respect for TK. But a friend of mine recently had a frame built at Spectrum and came away with the impression that when you go to TK you get what he wants. Not a lot of flexibility. He has been building frames with a slightly shaped TT, I think they call it the baseball bat shape. I am into a purer thing, that's all. At last today I will be talking to Signature again.. I am growing closer to a decision which may mean I will be joining the circus...

[potatochip]

The 6.7s come in handy steering around your sleek white appliances?


Fail

[UKBROOKLYN]

If anyone is still listening I have come to a decision and will be wearing a red nose in the spring.. I already have a Mini Cooper so have the clown car already..

Now begins the logo selection.. I am definitely leaning to the Script logo.. and possibly having the outside of the fork painted silver with a silver script logo inside. Headset Stem and seat post silver.. Naked brushed frame.. and before you ask I already have a set of SR on the shelf.. and will be using my Campag Neutron Ultra wheels..

IF have so many logo variations.. and I have a couple of months now to worry about that.. urgh

[c77barlage]

Sweet, I hope you enjoy your IF as much as I have enjoyed mine.
A steel Crown Jewel.

[tumbler]

Can't wait to see this one. I'm sure it will be insane.

[UKBROOKLYN]

I will post frame and build shots when its done.. won't be for a couple of months though.. have to wait for the frame.

You can expect more style questions from me as I go along with it.. Also when it's done my Merlin will be up for grabs..

[xeladragon]

I've always been a fan of brushed logos on a bead-blasted frame. You can probably do the reverse as well? And I had block logos on my then new-to-me IF, but if I were ordering a new one, I think I'd go the script route. Can't go wrong either way!

[happycampyer]

IF's capabilities and artistry when it comes to paint are so exceptional, it would be a shame not to have at least a splash of paint. Looking forward to the final product.

[SpeedyChix]

Congrats on making the call. Think you'll be really pleased with the IF. I've really enjoyed mine : ) For me it was a chance to add some paint to ti after years of "naked" ti.

[bluesea]

I've spent waaay too much time looking through IF's color palate.

[soulspinner]

IF's capabilities and artistry when it comes to paint are so exceptional, it would be a shame not to have at least a splash of paint. Looking forward to the final product.

First time I saw an IF live, it was a painted ti bike with a brushed rear 1/4. The paint was show quality. Splash that with paint somewhere, even panels will look great!

[UKBROOKLYN]

As much as I am a fan of naked TI I have to admit that by far the best paint jobs I have ever seen (in the flesh so to speak) have been on Indy Fabs.

Thats why I am thinking of doing something tricky with the fork..

like thise but with silver on the outside

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z1-9XBI90eM/Uuu9gxMLU-I/AAAAAAAAE7Y/NElTS_7abcI/s1600/WBTiCJ_14sm.png

or this

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KrDksbGFnp0/Uw5t_Zx5ZBI/AAAAAAAAE_0/OfXTDvCJ7TY/s1600/MSXS_24sm.png

[soulspinner]

diggin that lower one...

[R3awak3n]

i prefer the top one but mainly because I dont like the red on the bottom on but the exposed carbon is cool.

I like this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nyyzNuPqWgQ/VCwXmXjj2TI/AAAAAAAAFe4/zMmxwn_LkbI/s1600/UniFLW_15sm.png

[rwerkudara]

Bottom in silver is nice

[tumbler]

Bottom in silver is nice

Yes sir. Brushed Ti with this fork in silver with scripted inner legs would be pure :banana:.

[Bob Ross]

You can expect more style questions from me as I go along with it.

:::goes to get more popcorn:::