Shimano DA 7970 - Ouch

[RedRider]

Just a heads up for any Dura Ace DI2 7970 (10 speed) owners.
Shimano has stopped manufacturing and supplying these parts.
A customer of ours destroyed a 7970 rear derailleur last weekend and we started looking for a replacement. Our usual sources for Shimano parts didn't have them and were no longer stocking them. Shimano confirmed they were no longer going to inventory any of these parts.
Unfortunately, there is no substitute. The Ultegra DI2 and Dura Ace 9070 are 11 speed and have different wiring. There is no hack or hotwire option.
Fortunately, we found one for the customer but we also explored the possibility of an upgrade to 11 speed or Campy so we don't have to go down this road again.

[zennmotion]

Just a heads up for any Dura Ace DI2 7970 (10 speed) owners.
Shimano has stopped manufacturing and supplying these parts.
A customer of ours destroyed a 7970 rear derailleur last weekend and we started looking for a replacement. Our usual sources for Shimano parts didn't have them and were no longer stocking them. Shimano confirmed they were no longer going to inventory any of these parts.
Unfortunately, there is no substitute. The Ultegra DI2 and Dura Ace 9070 are 11 speed and have different wiring. There is no hack or hotwire option.
Fortunately, we found one for the customer but we also explored the possibility of an upgrade to 11 speed or Campy so we don't have to go down this road again.

Seems like a 15 year old gamer, or Larry the Cable Guy or maybe Anonymous could provide a hack solution. Tell me why we need electronic shifting again? Di2 already obsolete? Outrageous.

[gdw]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't 7970 introduced in 2009?

[AngryScientist]

sounds like an excellent way for shimano to piss off their customers and alienate people from electronic shifting.

[zzy]

It's pretty absurd and unfortunate that Shimano has rendered mixing 9070/6770/7970 parts impossible via a firmware update. Same with sequential shifting. I really hope they rethink this. Then again we're due for the release of Di2 105 soon, which should be interesting.

[EricEstlund]

Yup, 2009. It was replaced with the 11sp stuff in 2012. Not a bad run for a first gen top shelf product.

[Ti Designs]

Yup, 2009. It was replaced with the 11sp stuff in 2012. Not a bad run for a first gen top shelf product.


Not sure how to take that comment. On the one hand, it's Dura-Ace, their cutting edge stuff, so one could expect it would be replaced with newer stuff in a matter of a few short years. On the other hand, it's Dura-Ace, it should last. Some of us are still running Dura-Ace from generations past...

[Neil]

I got the very last wiring harness from the UK distributor - it's a shame, and shortsighted I think, but there we go.

[rnhood]

And on the third hand, its targeted towards elite level racing. These guys are not into running outdated equipment.

[RedRider]

And on the third hand, its targeted towards elite level racing. These guys are not into running outdated equipment.

It's becoming a trend in the cycling industry... not supporting products out of warranty.
Why continue to manufacture and stock parts that are not interchangeable with their current products and are no longer needed for warranty replacement?

[EricEstlund]

I don't mean the stuff shouldn't last when installed on a bike- I just mean that it's not atypical for a group to be replaced after a run at the top of the heap. Shimano USA generally keeps replacement parts available for 5 years (last I asked). For a higher end group made in lower volume that was functionally replaced in 2012, it's not surprising that the market supply is starting to get smaller.

[Ti Designs]

And on the third hand, its targeted towards elite level racing.

This brings up all sorts of questions. First, how is this targeting done? I've worked in bicycle retail for a few decades, never heard of anyone having to pull out their racing license to buy a bike. Second, why would any company [which wants to be in business next month] target a segment which has no hope of showing a profit with their flagship group?


Elite level racing is an industry money pit that large or foolish bike companies throw money into with the hope of getting more consumers into the store.

[rnhood]

Yeah. I think from Shimano's perspective, they see people with perfectly good and functional groups updating to new stuff....primarily because they want new stuff. So in light of this, and to further "push" people to upgrade when the opportunity exists (like a broken derailleur), perhaps there isn't much reason to support parts that are out of date and a couple generations old. Someone with the money to run 7970 will likely have the money to run 9070 or whatever their latest group is.

[saab2000]

And on the third hand, its targeted towards elite level racing. These guys are not into running outdated equipment.

I disagree with this. It's clearly targeted at customers who can afford it. But even customers who can afford good stuff don't like to feel stiffed.

The teams that ride it ride it as marketing to folks who populate forums like this one.

Shimano should definitely keep spares available or at least allow cross pollination of their components.

I still run Campagnolo 10-speed and can easily find a wide range of replacement components. I'm not alone in thinking that Campagnolo 10-speed is about the best stuff ever produced because there's so much cross compatibility of the stuff.

But that's beside the point. I also run Shimano's 9000 groups on a couple bikes. I would most certainly be lit up if in a year or two I can't find something I need and the whole group became obsolete, which is sort of what happened in the OP's post. That's less likely because I run mechanical but the point is still valid.

It's like buying an iPhone or other expensive device and having it slow down with a software "Upgrade". Huh?

People will return to buy quality stuff if they feel it's a good 'value' but they're less likely to warm to an expensive product like Di2 if something fails and can't be repaired or replaced, rendering the whole group more or less paper weights.

That's never good value and people who buy expensive bikes like good value, even people with plenty of money.

[gavingould]

if the derailleur was destroyed in a crash, then the "it should last" argument (in my opinion) is pretty irrelevant - it would last just fine if not crashed, just like all of the folks who still ride problem-free with DA7600 or older groups...

7970 was intro'd 5 years ago and they changed the wiring with the second version of di2, ultegra 6770. so 7970 pretty much became an orphan at that point. anyone remember Shimano's "10-speed only" freehub bodies? those didn't make it very far either.

electronics can go from serviceable to disposable pretty quickly in a relatively small industry. mechanical stuff, less so - or at least it's a lot easier to rig up a fix. electronic shifting is still for early adopters - there's a tax associated with that, not just in cost but occasionally short lifespan of sale/support.

[rustychisel]

if the derailleur was destroyed in a crash, then the "it should last" argument (in my opinion) is pretty irrelevant ....

electronics can go from serviceable to disposable pretty quickly in a relatively small industry. mechanical stuff, less so.


Nah. How and if equipment is rendered U/S is the irrelevancy. Support should be available.

Read saab2000s first para immediately above.

electronica: we're talking about a system which was adopted, rather than one which was introduced and then dropped when it was not adopted. Different thing entirely. References to a hub which was not widely adopted not relevant.

[shovelhd]

It's pretty absurd and unfortunate that Shimano has rendered mixing 9070/6770/7970 parts impossible via a firmware update. Same with sequential shifting. I really hope they rethink this. Then again we're due for the release of Di2 105 soon, which should be interesting.

There is no firmware with 7970. It's not E-tube. Completely different system.

If I could have afforded it, I would have sat on my 7970 parts for another year and gotten a bigger return on them, but they had to finance the 9070 replacement.

[gavingould]

we're talking about a system which was adopted, rather than one which was introduced and then dropped when it was not adopted. Different thing entirely. References to a hub which was not widely adopted not relevant.

so... you're trying to tell me that 7970 was "widely adopted" right away?

uh, no. it was accepted, by some segments of the market.
widely adopted is something else entirely. i'd call di2 widely adopted when 6870 came out as it was considered mature enough and affordable enough at that point... 3 versions with (semi-) interchangeable parts.

how long do you think parts should be available at retail for a top-level niche group? it's not like 7970 was oem on half a million bikes. like i said, sometimes early adopters get stung. Betamax? HD-DVD? Laserdisc?

[Grant McLean]

A customer of ours destroyed a 7970 rear derailleur last weekend and we started looking for a replacement. Our usual sources for Shimano parts didn't have them and were no longer stocking them. Shimano confirmed they were no longer going to inventory any of these parts.

Shimano suppliers doesn't have mechanical dura ace replacement derailleurs either.

If you want a used 7970 rear der, they are on ebay all the time,
a quick check shows dozens of them have sold recently, from NOS
to well used, pick your price point.

This is what happens to all the parts that come off bikes when people
upgrade, they end up in the second hand market.
This days, it's the reason there isn't a market for Shimano to continue
to offer previous generations of every part they ever made.

Shimano will supply replacement parts for things that wear out, but they have
never continued to supply cranks, hubs, wheels, derailleurs from older groups.

-g

[thirdgenbird]

Shimano will supply replacement parts for things that wear out, but they have
never continued to supply cranks, hubs, wheels, derailleurs from older groups.

-g

Campagnolo has. Record and chorus 10spd parts were produced after being replaced by 11spd. If my memory serves correct, 9spd chorus parts were also avalible after 10spd came out. Not saying shimano should, I'm just saying Campagnolo has.

The unique thing with 7970 is that it's not cross compatible. Other shimano groups are usually somewhat cross compatible so your options for replacement parts are better. It might take buying a tiagra RD for your 7900 group, but at least it works.

[oldpotatoe]

Campagnolo has. Record and chorus 10spd parts were produced after being replaced by 11spd. If my memory serves correct, 9spd chorus parts were also avalible after 10spd came out. Not saying shimano should, I'm just saying Campagnolo has.

The unique thing with 7970 is that it's not cross compatible. Other shimano groups are usually somewhat cross compatible so your options for replacement parts are better. It might take buying a tiagra RD for your 7900 group, but at least it works.

Kinda like 7400. But somebody mentioned DA being a loss leader, well, it probably is. 7970/6770/6870/9070 probably more so. Just riding around, how many bikes do you see with shimano or Campagnolo electronic? Even in the shop, not many. Pros? Lots, cuz that's what they supply. Campagnolo with 8s->9s and wheels, shimano/spam with 10s-11s, wheels..

What galls me is shimano could have kept the software stuff to use 6770(10s) with 11s or allow 9070 to be 10s, using a 6770 rear der..

The disadvantage to being tied to a manufacturer's website for updates and such.

[bcroslin]

electronics can go from serviceable to disposable pretty quickly in a relatively small industry. mechanical stuff, less so - or at least it's a lot easier to rig up a fix. electronic shifting is still for early adopters - there's a tax associated with that, not just in cost but occasionally short lifespan of sale/support.

Welcome to my world. As a photographer I'm expected by my clients to shoot with the latest and greatest cameras that go obsolete every 3 years. The camera companies stock parts for about 4-5 years for when things go bad and then they send out a tech bulletin when the camera is EOL that basically says best of luck. I have to constantly turn cameras over in order to recapture some of their value when I upgrade. I'm an admitted gear head who loves new tech and I'm in awe of the DA DI2 and the especially the Campy EPS but I can't bring myself to complicate another thing in my life with a new expensive technology that will quickly become obsolete every 4 years.

(funny thing is I have a 25 year old Mamiya medium format film camera sitting here on my desk that works just as good as the day it was unboxed)

[jr59]

I have a friend that has had the same problem with his 7970, and was party to a discussion with the Shimmano rep. He flat out said that Shimano thought about a buy-back program, or a trade in program and did not want to do it. Also said that all back stock went to EAI. IMO; that is planned obsolesce, just for the bottom line. Shimano decided that in order to make more money they would not support their flagship line! Very poor business in my book!

But He di say the EAI had most every thing my friend needed!

[fuzzalow]

I agree as general principle that there is no real excuse for Shimano not to support their top of the line group set for any reasonable time period. It makes the overhead of SKUs in the parts supply and distribution chain a nonexistent expense for Shimano and screws their customer. Somebody always pays.

Although folks that understand software might be irritated by the inability to reprogram the rear dérailleur mech for 10 speed, it would be completely unorthodox for Shimano to get behind or even acknowledge the existence of a software hack. Still, that doesn't mean it can't be done - there are some very clever tech savvy folks out there.

As a Campagnolo only cyclist, all the above conundrum exists for me only in the realm of the conceptual.

[oldpotatoe]

Just a heads up for any Dura Ace DI2 7970 (10 speed) owners.
Shimano has stopped manufacturing and supplying these parts.
A customer of ours destroyed a 7970 rear derailleur last weekend and we started looking for a replacement. Our usual sources for Shimano parts didn't have them and were no longer stocking them. Shimano confirmed they were no longer going to inventory any of these parts.
Unfortunately, there is no substitute. The Ultegra DI2 and Dura Ace 9070 are 11 speed and have different wiring. There is no hack or hotwire option.
Fortunately, we found one for the customer but we also explored the possibility of an upgrade to 11 speed or Campy so we don't have to go down this road again.

EA has 'em..hoo-boy they are expensive tho..about $900 retail. About the same $ as SR...

[texbike]

A customer of ours destroyed a 7970 rear derailleur last weekend and we started looking for a replacement. Our usual sources for Shimano parts didn't have them and were no longer stocking them. Shimano confirmed they were no longer going to inventory any of these parts.
Unfortunately, there is no substitute. The Ultegra DI2 and Dura Ace 9070 are 11 speed and have different wiring. There is no hack or hotwire option.
Fortunately, we found one for the customer but we also explored the possibility of an upgrade to 11 speed or Campy so we don't have to go down this road again.

I have a minty 7400 group that I'd be happy to make a deal on for your customer if he would like to back-date to something that would continue to work over an extended period of time. :rolleyes:

Texbike

[El Chaba]

While I detest the idea that a top shelf group would be unsupported and obsolete in such a short period of time, I can't see Shimano taking too bad of a hit on this.....The sort of early adopters who bought into the first generation of electronic shifting are generally not the sort who run their equipment for more than several seasons.....

[gavingould]

Welcome to my world. As a photographerinterestingly enough, i'm also a photographer. or was, not really my industry anymore. as more and more clients "knew somebody with a better/newer/more megapixels camera who could do the same thing for less"

i jumped ship to an industry that more appreciates knowledge/skills over equipment. in IT though, End-of-Life/end-of-support is very real. in the last year we've had to migrate a lot of people away from Windows XP. Cisco UC systems that were new in 2012 are now off the market in mid-2014.

[El Chaba]

[QUOTE=saab2000;1666252
I still run Campagnolo 10-speed and can easily find a wide range of replacement components. I'm not alone in thinking that Campagnolo 10-speed is about the best stuff ever produced because there's so much cross compatibility of the stuff.


.[/QUOTE]

I think that the 9 speed stuff was actually the high water mark, but only slightly....I agree 100% that the 10 speed gets the nod for the (almost) unprecedented spare parts availability/support. Campagnolo has even made some unofficial (uncatalogued) production runs of certain components. The components are durable stuff and there is no reason to scrap an entire drivetrain for the lack of availability of one part. I applaud Campagnolo for their responsiveness.....

[Vinci]

interestingly enough, i'm also a photographer. or was, not really my industry anymore. as more and more clients "knew somebody with a better/newer/more megapixels camera who could do the same thing for less"

i jumped ship to an industry that more appreciates knowledge/skills over equipment. in IT though, End-of-Life/end-of-support is very real. in the last year we've had to migrate a lot of people away from Windows XP. Cisco UC systems that were new in 2012 are now off the market in mid-2014.
Servers, sure, but the infrastructure is still mostly the same and compatible. I have several generations of the stuff, and it all runs the same.

FWIW, I understand why Shimano didn't make their new stuff backwards compatible. They are in the business of selling parts and generational cross-compatibility eats away at that. Not that I like it as a customer...

Maybe they feel the market is more tolerant of incompatibility with "electronics" versus changing pull ratios on mechanical groups every generation.

[RedRider]

EA has 'em..hoo-boy they are expensive tho..about $900 retail. About the same $ as SR...

Shimano msrp on RD 7970 is $739. If available.

The reason I posted this was that this part issue is somewhat unique in my experience. We see upgrades all the time and if an older product is discontinued there is usually a replacement/substitution available. If it was mechanical RD, an Ultegra or 105 10 speed would have worked or, if desperate a SRAM 10 speed.

[jr59]

Shimano msrp on RD 7970 is $739. If available.

The reason I posted this was that this part issue is somewhat unique in my experience. We see upgrades all the time and if an older product is discontinued there is usually a replacement/substitution available. If it was mechanical RD, an Ultegra or 105 10 speed would have worked or, if desperate a SRAM 10 speed.


That's the problem I see with how Shimano has handled this whole thing.

I always thought a co should support it's product, even after the warranty expired! I KNOW that this is going on right now. I find it shameful that a co like Shimano would go to such lengths to make people buy their newer group. Either that or they got in bed with EA. It really makes me glad I ride 90% campy.

I feel bad for the people stuck with this JUNK on their bikes, and it is JUNK b/c of the non support of their own product line

[Mark McM]

Yup, 2009. It was replaced with the 11sp stuff in 2012. Not a bad run for a first gen top shelf product.

I bought my Mazda 3 in early 2009. It was the year of that version - they introduced a new completely redesigned version later that year. Are you saying that I shouldn't be upset if Mazda stopped supporting and servicing my car?

[pdmtong]

While this flies in the face of traditional mechanical support paradigms it's the cost of being an early adopter

What about the guy who saved and saved to buy 7970 only to have 9070 come out the next month and obsolete his purchase?

While I personally thnk the policy isn't optimal this is life on the leading edge. Don't be there if you can't afford to be there

[shovelhd]

It's only junk when it breaks.

[Robbos]

One of the things I love about the bicycle is its inherent simplicity and the relative ease with which it can be fixed and maintained. This derailleur example underlines the general move in the opposite direction. And really, if you cannot get replacement parts five years after the group was released, then your parts are not better than my 15 year old 9 speed Ultegra!

[jr59]

It's only junk when it breaks.

Everything breaks.

As to being on the cutting edge; Maybe in electronics, but most major companies support their products. The car example is a good one, and I'll give you Rolex. Who will support their old movements 5 years after they stop selling said movement.

Or Shimano could offer some kind of trade in deal. Not giving their newest stuff away, but making it a lot less cash out lay to upgrade the older stuff. Or letting 10 speed elect shifting drop down into 105 range.

But they choose do tell customers go go pump sand! It's sad.

[zzy]

FWIW, I understand why Shimano didn't make their new stuff backwards compatible. They are in the business of selling parts and generational cross-compatibility eats away at that. Not that I like it as a customer...

Maybe they feel the market is more tolerant of incompatibility with "electronics" versus changing pull ratios on mechanical groups every generation.

But this is all fairly recent for Shimano. In the 9sp days, all the road and MTB stuff worked great together, across generations and group hierarchies. That was also mostly true with 10sp until Dynasys (rendered kinda irrelevant by the wider road cassettes) and the brake leverage changes (which were minor anyway).

I was wondering how Shimano would handle a warranty request on 7970. I assume the usual DA 3 year policy applies. I would think they'd maintain a backstock of parts for that alone.

As a ex-photog who also moved to IT, I don't see the comparison. Unless you need to generate massive prints, your camera is really irrelevant (even then some good interpolation in PS can achieve the same effect). A skilled user can produce great images with just about anything with the right light, and never underestimate the importance of post production. Plenty of guys I worked with stuck to Leica rangefinders, medium format Hassleblads, and the like. If your client judges you on your (camera)body, then you just have a rube for a client. Most photogs will judge you on your glass and portfolio.

[gavingould]

your camera is really irrelevant... If your client judges you on your (camera)body, then you just have a rube for a client. Most photogs will judge you on your glass and portfolio.

the comparison of bike parts support and IT support boils down to nothing lasts forever. there are some false starts, occasionally rapid obsolescence. how many "cloud" platforms have come and gone in 5 years? maybe Shimano should have worked out an adapter system to make 7970 compatible or upgradeable to e-tube. they didn't.

fully agree with camera being irrelevant, but when the rubes have the money, they decide who gets the job. one of the big reasons i left photography was the notion that everyone's a photographer now, so instead of paying a pro to shoot, the company will just buy a nice camera and have Bobby from the mailroom do it, he has some really nice photos of his cat on Facebook.

honestly, i don't know of too many jobs where you don't ultimately work for a bunch of rubes. it's definitely the same in my current career, but the new rubes definitely need their computers to work more than the old rubes needed good photography - and they're more willing to pay for a professional to make it happen.

this discussion has taken a strong turn from this bike part isn't available anymore so pardon the digression

[LJohnny]

What do you guys think of shimano limiting the use of hybrid ultegra 10/11s systems?

I think if true, it's outrageous. If a manufacturer thinks it is not ideal to combine generations, I am fine with a warning or disclaimer.
But claims of the etube software disabling the drivetrain upon detection of an 11s RD with otherwise 10s system are really disappointing. This should be illegal in my opinion. Once you buy a component you should be allowed to assemble it as you please. I have used the ui2 11s RD with 10s everything else I have not experienced anything other than perfect performance. Anyone here have first hand experience with etube indeed actively blocking/disabling the system?

I think this can be considered as another data point that they are after boosting the bottom line at the expense of alienating their customer base. In my case I love how the stuff works, but I am not going to stick around electronic shifting systems in the light of greed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grant McLean]

So much angst and hostility.

If you need a 7970 rear derailleur, you can find one for sale in about
5 minutes of google searching.

Here's stock for less than $450 retail:

http://www.alexscycle.com/di2/dura-ace-di2/shimano-di2-rd-7970.html?currency=USD

Geeze, the existential turmoil seems completely out of proportion to reality.
How big could the market be for replacements? It's got to be smaller than
the number of used Di2 hitting the secondary market. If Shimano had demand
for it, they'd supply.

The standard pattern of parts distribution means these parts are actually
blown out for substantial wholesale discounts to make them go away when the
newer versions come out. The demand for the older stuff stops, then about
3 years later some folks get their underwear in a bunch because the shelves
aren't overflowing with the stuff.

-g

[thirdgenbird]

What do you guys think of shimano limiting the use of hybrid ultegra 10/11s systems?

I think if true, it's outrageous. If a manufacturer thinks it is not ideal to combine generations, I am fine with a warning or disclaimer.
But claims of the etube software disabling the drivetrain upon detection of an 11s RD with otherwise 10s system are really disappointing. This should be illegal in my opinion. Once you buy a component you should be allowed to assemble it as you please. I have used the ui2 11s RD with 10s everything else I have not experienced anything other than perfect performance. Anyone here have first hand experience with etube indeed actively blocking/disabling the system?

I think this can be considered as another data point that they are after boosting the bottom line at the expense of alienating their customer base. In my case I love how the stuff works, but I am not going to stick around electronic shifting systems in the light of greed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find it slightly humorous. I know there were people that were promoting or justifying electronic purchases because it would end the era of cable pull compatability issues. Several times, I brought up the fact that they would only be compatible if the manufactur allowed and supported it, and most dismissed my idea. Frankly, I'm not surprised by Shimano's descission.

Take my bike for example. I am using delta brakes, c-record cranks, and 8spd ergos with a 10spd drivetrain. Campagnolo made their parts easily upgradable and it has kept be from buying new parts.

Disappointing? You bet. Illegal? That is nonsense. You "can" assemble it the way that you wish, it just might not work the way you want. I can legally put a 6spd freewheel on my bike or a ford v8 in Porsche but neither will work without some outside creativity. With cable pull derailleurs it takes mechanical modifications like my 8spd shifters that now shift 10 cogs. With electronics, you are free to do an unsupported hack if you so wish. There is no real difference, it just takes a different skill set and tool box.

[FlashUNC]

Its a simple calculus from Shimano's standpoint. Tons of wholesale bits and secondhand parts are out there. And 7970 was a one-off, effectively technological dead-end compared to the other stuff they put out after, if I remember everything correctly.

That's the price of early adoption sometimes, and back when that stuff launched it really was the bleeding edge.

[LJohnny]

Nothing wrong with not liking electronic shifting. You can find it humorous, it is OK. Hey, I also have a Colnago Master with 8-speed Campagnolo and I love it. Shifts great, in fact it is the closest that I have come to a bike shifting as sharp as the electronic shifting, seriously, not quite the same level, but as close as I have experienced (compared to not electronic DA or SRAM red for instance). That 8-speed Campagnolo stuff when set up to perfection is magical. Now, something that di2 lacks IMO: the shifting of 8-speed Campagnolo has a romantic feeling to it that cannot be replicated, as simply as that, IMO.

Having said that, your analogy to the engine assembly is non-sequitur, totally different scenarios, really. We are talking about something that works fine (yes, I have first hand experience), and that presumably is being blocked by the manufacturer (I say presumably because in my personal set up etube did not precluded the use of 11S RD with 10S shifters, that is why I asked if someone has experience with the claimed issue). I think that your argument in your last paragraph actually counter points your first paragraph. They point is that they are precluding the user from even trying.... As you say, and I agree with the specific point, you could put a 6-speed freewheel in your bike and reach the conclusion that shifting is mediocre at best and then change your approach. My point is that the manufacturer is blocking you from even giving it a go.... Coming to your car analogy, it would be close to a manufacturer blocking the use of a new model gear "synchronizer," from working, just because they want you to buy the latest model transmission. They key issue here would be the disabling of the system.

I still see (and realize) that they can get away with it. But I also would like to put forward that it could be deemed illegal by a manufacturer to disable a product that has the potential to work in a given set up, just because they realize that they may make more profit by interfering with it. Yes, I realize that they can probably legally do it, it just really casts a grim shadow.
!
I find it slightly humorous. I know there were people that were promoting or justifying electronic purchases because it would end the era of cable pull compatability issues. Several times, I brought up the fact that they would only be compatible if the manufactur allowed and supported it, and most dismissed my idea. Frankly, I'm not surprised by Shimano's descission.

Take my bike for example. I am using delta brakes, c-record cranks, and 8spd ergos with a 10spd drivetrain. Campagnolo made their parts easily upgradable and it has kept be from buying new parts.

Disappointing? You bet. Illegal? That is nonsense. You "can" assemble it the way that you wish, it just might not work the way you want. I can legally put a 6spd freewheel on my bike or a ford v8 in Porsche but neither will work without some outside creativity. With cable pull derailleurs it takes mechanical modifications like my 8spd shifters that now shift 10 cogs. With electronics, you are free to do an unsupported hack if you so wish. There is no real difference, it just takes a different skill set and tool box.

[gavingould]

want to keep using a mixed 6770/6870 setup? don't plug it in and upgrade the firmware. but you can't have whatever new features that may come with new firmware either.

[thirdgenbird]

Nothing wrong with not liking electronic shifting. You can find it humorous, it is OK. Hey, I also have a Colnago Master with 8-speed Campagnolo and I love it. Shifts great, in fact it is the closest that I have come to a bike shifting as sharp as the electronic shifting, seriously, not quite the same level, but as close as I have experienced (compared to not electronic DA or SRAM red for instance). That 8-speed Campagnolo stuff when set up to perfection is magical. Now, something that di2 lacks IMO: the shifting of 8-speed Campagnolo has a romantic feeling to it that cannot be replicated, as simply as that, IMO.

Having said that, your analogy to the engine assembly is non-sequitur, totally different scenarios, really. We are talking about something that works fine (yes, I have first hand experience), and that presumably is being blocked by the manufacturer (I say presumably because in my personal set up etube did not precluded the use of 11S RD with 10S shifters, that is why I asked if someone has experience with the claimed issue). I think that your argument in your last paragraph actually counter points your first paragraph. They point is that they are precluding the user from even trying.... As you say, and I agree with the specific point, you could put a 6-speed freewheel in your bike and reach the conclusion that shifting is mediocre at best and then change your approach. My point is that the manufacturer is blocking you from even giving it a go.... Coming to your car analogy, it would be close to a manufacturer blocking the use of a new model gear "synchronizer," from working, just because they want you to buy the latest model transmission. They key issue here would be the disabling of the system.

I still see (and realize) that they can get away with it. But I also would like to put forward that it could be deemed illegal by a manufacturer to disable a product that has the potential to work in a given set up, just because they realize that they may make more profit by interfering with it. Yes, I realize that they can probably legally do it, it just really casts a grim shadow.
!

I don't dislike electronic, I jsut don't see a need for it in my life.

8spd Campagnolo is magic. I went all in on 10 for gearing and compatibility, but nothing shifts better than 8spd campy, nothing. (Obviously an opinion)

I don't think there as a counter point. I should have clarified out of the box compatibility in the first paragraph. You are free to to plug in or splice any rear derailleur. It may not work, but you are free to buy any RD you want. The shimano police won't arrest you.

You are correct. My automotive example was off base. A better one is shavers. I've got two shaver handles by the same brand. The only thing preventing you from using the new refills on the old handle is a small tab that was added for no other reason. I'm with you that I don't like it, but it is their choice. I still have the freedom to cut the tab. Unfortunately, rewriting code isn't as easy.

Another example is dewalt and black and decker (same company) batteries. At one time, and maybe still, the only thing that prevented you from using black and decker batteries on a dewalt drill was a small tab that was offset on one and centered on the other. The tab served no other purpose. I knew contractors that bought the cheaper b&d batteries and filed off the tab.

[LJohnny]

want to keep using a mixed 6770/6870 setup? don't plug it in and upgrade the firmware. but you can't have whatever new features that may come with new firmware either.

Yeah, that is the way I look at it. One thing I am still ambiguous is whether changing the FD to 11SP is enough to make them fully compatible and merry.


and thirdgen, I hear you. I completely realize that these conversations have very little impact on corporate "sense and sensibility." Nothing more than shooting the breeze at the water cooler. It is probably easier to try to convince a rooster that laying eggs is possible than to change corporate biz strategies, from an affected consumer standpoint. And right of the bat, yes, electronic shifting systems have the huge pitfall that the manufacturer still has influence (control) on your system via software updates, something that mech system is inherently devoid of.

Still, if you ever get the chance to take a di2 or eps bike for a spin, check it out :) specially FD shifting is amazing.

[thirdgenbird]

Oh I will. I want to try eps so bad it hurts. I just don't need it enough to spend the money. Same with 11spd. I want it, but the 10spd stuff lasts too long.

I tried di2. I can't use it. I've got reduced feeling and movement in my right fingers and can't distinguish the two buttons well enough. Sure, I could swap and make that the front or use a sprint shifter, but it's not worth the cost and compromise.

[oldpotatoe]

Yeah, that is the way I look at it. One thing I am still ambiguous is whether changing the FD to 11SP is enough to make them fully compatible and merry.


and thirdgen, I hear you. I completely realize that these conversations have very little impact on Japanese corporate "sense and sensibility." Nothing more than shooting the breeze at the water cooler. It is probably easier to try to convince a rooster that laying eggs is possible than to change corporate biz strategies, from an affected consumer standpoint. And right of the bat, yes, electronic shifting systems have the huge pitfall that the manufacturer still has influence (control) on your system via software updates, something that mech system is inherently devoid of.

Still, if you ever get the chance to take a di2 or eps bike for a spin, check it out :) specially FD shifting is amazing.

FIFY..not implying anything racist, but I have seen in the past shimano does certain things 'just because', and they don't really care what the market thinks cuz they are that big.

Case in point, when they went to a 1 inch cartridge headset, bigger stack height than the previous cup and ball..made a bunch of fork obsolete overnight. I asked Wayne Stetina why would they do this, and his answer was because they can, they are Japanese. They wished a certain size HS bearing, and cartridge, and the result was the result.

Japanese corporate sensibility not better or worse than US or European, just way different.

-BTW-lived in Japan for 3 years..different with a capital 'D'.

[Grant McLean]

Case in point, when they went to a 1 inch cartridge headset, bigger stack height than the previous cup and ball..made a bunch of fork obsolete overnight. I asked Wayne Stetina why would they do this, and his answer was because they can, they are Japanese. They wished a certain size HS bearing, and cartridge, and the result was the result.

There is not much difference in stack height between the 7400 and 7410 headsets,
Unless somehow 1mm somehow makes forks "obsolete". Got a better case?
They're still lower stack than campy.
Surely there must be, they have a 300 page catalog of parts that changes
every few years.