Mis-aligned logo

[wss]

Built up a NOS Shimano 7700 32 hole front hub. I could have sworn the logo was aligned/normal before the build. Anyone ever see this ?



http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697891318&stc=1&d=1417579799

[Cicli]

Yes, I have seen that a few times. It's called a bad link. Your link is broken. :banana:

[wss]

Front hub

[earlfoss]

Maybe it's the angle of the flash but it looks like the metal in the middle of the hub was twisted a little when being built up (improperly). I could be way off.

[gasman]

There's no way building up a wheel could cause the hub to twist and make it look like that.

[wss]

I agree (with earlfoss) on the twisted bit.
I thought the same thing. Wouldn't spokes break through the hub holes before enough force could be applied to twist the hub.

[gasman]

I agree on the twisted bit.
I thought the same thing. Wouldn't spokes break through the hub holes before enough force could be applied to twist the hub.

Yep, you're correct.

[Tony T]

I could have sworn the logo was aligned/normal before the build.


Post a pic before the build :)

[rilz]

I think it looks cool. Aren't there comic book collectors who love to buy misprinted books because they're rare? Consider it a collectible.

[pbarry]

Stop touching it.

[Louis]

Probably worth as much as an Inverted Jenny

http://www.famousstamps.org/invertedjenny3.jpg

[ultraman6970]

If the hub was brand new then the hub is not virgin no more :P

[christian]

I don't know how in the heck you would do it, but if you somehow laced a hub with one spoke hole off between leading and trailing spokes on either side and laced it up to 120 Kgf, I think you could get the hubshell to twist. There is not a ton of material in a hubshell to resist opposing torque on the flanges. I think someone built it wrong. And didn't notice for a long long long time.

[christian]

Wouldn't spokes break through the hub holes before enough force could be applied to twist the hub.No, definitely not.

[Louis]

Run your finger and or fingernail along the hub center portion and see if you feel any ripples or other non-flatness in the material. If you do, then it was probably twisted during a wheel build at some point during its life.

[christian]

Wouldn't spokes break through the hub holes before enough force could be applied to twist the hub.No, definitely not.

http://oli-roadworks.blogspot.com/2011_12_01_archive.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9xo_lg3NQL8/Tv0PZ4e-yiI/AAAAAAAALzk/Wfxra2ztLU8/s1600/SAM_3509.JPG

[Louis]

No, definitely not.

http://oli-roadworks.blogspot.com/2011_12_01_archive.html

Ouch. I bet that builder was bummed when he realized what was happening...

[christian]

The ripples in the aluminum do nicely demonstrate the material thickness though.

[Louis]

The ripples in the aluminum do nicely demonstrate the material thickness though.

Or lack thereof...

That's what we get, when we demand lightness before all else.

[Steve in SLO]

That looks like a WB ENO hub. Ouch!

[mjb266]

To the OP, It was laced wrong. Your hub is shot. Ive seen it when folks screw up the lacing on a wheel set.

Please don't ride the thing as this is way less safe than a Waterford with huge dents in the side.

[foo_fighter]

What lacing error causes this?

To the OP, It was laced wrong. Your hub is shot. Ive seen it when folks screw up the lacing on a wheel set.

Please don't ride the thing as this is way less safe than a Waterford with huge dents in the side.

[oldpotatoe]

Front hub

Seen it once on a rear hub, same model, when built radial. Never seen it on a front. Are the spoke holes alternating as well, left to right or lined up with opposite side hole?

[unterhausen]

What lacing error causes this?

if you clock the spokes on one side by a hole, you put a twist in the hub body when you bring it up to tension. I suppose it can be more than one hole off, but at some point you run out of threads on the "short" spokes

[Lewis Moon]

Run your finger and or fingernail along the hub center portion and see if you feel any ripples or other non-flatness in the material. If you do, then it was probably twisted during a wheel build at some point during its life.

Yeah, you would think that it would show up. I've twisted an old Maillard shell doing a stupid kid trick back in high school: I clipped the spokes prior to removing the freewheel. I laced up the off side hoping I could get it off but just twisted the shell. I felt like such a schmuck.

[Grant McLean]

No, definitely not.

http://oli-roadworks.blogspot.com/2011_12_01_archive.html


That wasn't caused by improper lacing, according to the blog you posted.

I'm skeptical that it's even possible to do that.
How can you tension a wheel mis-laced?
one side rim will have Half of the spokes hanging out of the spoke holes,
and the other spokes will be unable to get the threads started once
you get past half way around the rim.

I think something else is going on, perhaps someone did cut out the
spokes on the hub of a previous build, and damaged it once already
Tensioned from a normal lacing job.

[christian]

I'm skeptical that it's even possible to do that. How can you tension a wheel mis-laced?

It's baffling, but let's be honest, other than via the spokes, how can you possibly apply sufficient opposing torque to the flanges of a hubshell. Somebody did something. And the something people usually do with hubs is build them... OP, speak up!

[gasman]

It's baffling, but let's be honest, other than via the spokes, how can you possibly apply sufficient opposing torque to the flanges of a hubshell. Somebody did something. And the something people usually do with hubs is build them... OP, speak up!


I just can't imagine how this happened, Are the hub shells really that thin walled nowadays ? I have some ultegra hubs I've used a couple builds and they are almost 20 years old now.

[RudAwkning]

This happened to a friend after he attempted to remove a track cog after unlacing the wheel. Oops!

[christian]

Put in the first set of trailing spokes on one flange. Accidentally offset the second set of trailing spokes by one. Fail to turn the hub fully clockwise, and put the leading spokes in on that same flange first (rather than second), somehow not noticing the odd offset and adjusting the leading spoking to fix. Insert second set of leading spokes on initial hub flange. Tension and stress relieve.

The handedness of the rim should make this, um, difficult, but I think that'll do it. I don't know, you'd have to not notice a lot of challenges. But short of putting one flange in a vise, how _else_ would you torque the hubshell?

[christian]

Alternately, you could do this, reading Sheldon Brown's description of how to lace a 3x wheel:

Turn the wheel back around so that the freewheel side is toward you. Insert a spoke into any hole, but this time from the inside of the flange. Twist the hub clockwise as far as it will conveniently go. Since we are building a cross 3 wheel, this new spoke will cross 3 trailing spokes that go to the same flange of the hub. (My underlining.)

If wss is a body builder, perhaps what was convenient for him wasn't convenient for the hub? But I actually don't think you can get that much torque from your hand onto a hub that is laced by not tensioned.

(This post is a bit of a joke)

[wss]

Rim is laced correctly. I followed Sheldon Browns write up.
Messed up somewhere though.
Will be taking the wheel to a LBS to have the spoke tension checked before I take the rim apart. Curious to see the tension I put the spokes at.
When I noticed the logo I thought it was twisted. The one 25 mile ride I did on it was uneventful, but I was often thinking, if the hub failed I'll be hurting.

[christian]

Take a picture of the full wheel.

[unterhausen]

assuming the spokes are clocked, the wheel will appear to be properly laced. There will probably be a weird offset between the spokeholes on the two flanges. Normally, the spoke holes are halfway between the ones on the opposite flange

[wss]

...
...Are the spoke holes alternating as well, left to right or lined up with opposite side hole?

Only other rim I built before this was a A23 rim + rear 4500 Shimano hub.
This was a DT RR 440 rim. The spoke offset, from nd to ds holes seem, to my eyes, be drilled closer to the centerline than on an A23.
Looking at the inside channel (these are tubeless ready rims) I had to really look closely to see the offset.
Checked the spokes from the key spoke and all are alternating correctly.

Even with the twisted hub the rim is very true in both directions.

[wss]

... Normally, the spoke holes are halfway between the ones on the opposite flange
They were before the twist.

[wss]

....

I think something else is going on, perhaps someone did cut out the
spokes on the hub of a previous build, and damaged it once already
Tensioned from a normal lacing job.

Hub was never laced, New Old stock.

[seanile]

Take a picture of the full wheel.^

[oldpotatoe]

Only other rim I built before this was a A23 rim + rear 4500 Shimano hub.
This was a DT RR 440 rim. The spoke offset, from nd to ds holes seem, to my eyes, be drilled closer to the centerline than on an A23.
Looking at the inside channel (these are tubeless ready rims) I had to really look closely to see the offset.
Checked the spokes from the key spoke and all are alternating correctly.

Even with the twisted hub the rim is very true in both directions.

I meant the holes on the hub..if twisted, they would be more lined up..maybe just a poor labeling by shimano??

[unterhausen]

there is a discoloration at the center of the hub that corresponds to the shift in the logo. Appears to be cracking of the anodizing. A lot of things going on when you are building a wheel, it wouldn't surprise me that someone who doesn't build wheels all the time would do this.

There would be nothing about the finished wheel that would appear off other than the hub

[dawgie]

Wow! You learn something new every day. I had no idea it was possible to twist a hub out of shape.

[mktng]

I'm with dawgie. This is a first for me. I'll have to go home and check my hubs!

[ericssonboi]

Twisted hubs. Woww.. i'm going home after work and looking at all my logos also..

[Grant McLean]

assuming the spokes are clocked, the wheel will appear to be properly laced. There will probably be a weird offset between the spokeholes on the two flanges. Normally, the spoke holes are halfway between the ones on the opposite flange

This must be the explanation. Given just the small amount the front shell appears
rotated, if the wheel is now built with reasonable tension and is true,
the holes in one of the flanges must not have been drilled with the correct
orientation to the opposite side. That could be enough to have only a little
effect on the spoke length that the builder didn't notice it during tensioning.

-g

[Hindmost]

This thread has been like one of those "locked-door" murder mysteries.

[wss]

Sorry for the delay getting the pictures up.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697891727&stc=1&d=1418185597

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697891728&stc=1&d=1418185597

Thanks to Keith A for the help with the pictures.

[gasman]

It doesn't look right to me, I know somebody smarter will figure it out.

[buldogge]

Well...The holes appear to no longer be offset… :help:

-Mark in St. Louis

[foo_fighter]

In the top picture there looks like a lacing error, some of the spokes are only cross 2x(in the upper left quadrant). Looking closer, maybe it's just the angle of the shot. This is like a cartalk puzzler!

[Gsinill]

Seems like you took the 2nd picture straight from above, so the spoke pattern should look symmetrical.
If you look at the triangles that the spokes form on each side of the wheel, the ones at 8:45 start totally concentric, the further up you go (clockwise) they are getting more and more out of center.
It's hard to tell exactly why without seeing both sides of the wheel though.

[oldpotatoe]

Well...The holes appear to no longer be offset… :help:

-Mark in St. Louis

Looks that way to me too. Opposite hole should be between the ones on the other flange, they 'look' like they are lined up. Wonder how it got that way tho, if it is. NOS hub and all.

[malcolm]

If the hub "torqued" you would think you should be able to see or at least feel a slight ripple in the material, wouldn't you. It does look like surface of the anodizing is changed.

[weightshift]

Bad logo stamping most likely. I imagine in the factory, the hub wasn't as stabilized as it should be when the stamp came down and turned a bit as it was being applied.

"Limited Edition Dura Ace hub".

[wss]

If the hub "torqued" you would think you should be able to see or at least feel a slight ripple in the material, wouldn't you. It does look like surface of the anodizing is changed.

In an earlier post "Louis" had the same suggestion. Hub flange is twisted slightly. Still haven't measured the spoke tension.
I will be replacing the hub.
I'm sure the logo was perfect before the build.

[thirdgenbird]

The flange sure looks twisted.

When you get the wheel disassembled, try and run spokes through the left and right flange parallel to the axle. You should be able to tell pretty quickly if the holes are offset like they should be.

[wss]

I unlaced my screwed upped front wheel tonight.
I didn't measure spoke tension like I said, decided to buy a Park tension meter before I build it up again and to check out the rear wheel I also just built.
The other hub is a 32 hole 501 model.

[thirdgenbird]

Wow. It looks like it twisted so that the holes are perfectly aligned.

[Louis]

So THAT'S what they mean by "stress-relieving" the spokes...

[unterhausen]

I've seen this before, in case nobody guessed. It doesn't pull the hub around so that the spoke holes are offset like you might expect, at some point the displacement stops because the tension in the hub balances out the tension that is twisting the hub body.

[Volant]

You definitely made a lacing error. In the profile pic, look at the spoke running to the 3 o'clock position. Go down 4 spoke positions at the rim. That spoke should be in the same orientation as the one at 3 o'clock (head out, from same flange). It's not. I don't know how you were able to pull this wheel up and true it (assuming all spoke lengths are the same).

[Wilkinson4]

Re-lace the wheel opposite of the way it was, pre-stress the spokes and ride it for exactly 100 miles. It should unwind and fix it self :) Wow, at first I thought it was just the logo but damn that thing looks like it got twisted.


mIKE

[oldpotatoe]

I unlaced my screwed upped front wheel tonight.
I didn't measure spoke tension like I said, decided to buy a Park tension meter before I build it up again and to check out the rear wheel I also just built.
The other hub is a 32 hole 501 model.

Well, that pretty much answers the 'is the hub twisted?' question. Since the holes on the rim are offset, the holes in the hub are not. I suspect the tension is going to be a little 'weird'.

[Black Dog]

I would not reuse that hub, perhaps with the exception of radial lacing which will allow for more even tension but I am not sure if the that hub is rated for radial lacing. As of trying to reverse lace it to twist it back I can only imagine that would weaken the hub at the twist point to the point of potential failure.

[thirdgenbird]

I would not reuse that hub, perhaps with the exception of radial lacing which will allow for more even tension but I am not sure if the that hub is rated for radial lacing. As of trying to reverse lace it to twist it back I can only imagine that would weaken the hub at the twist point to the point of potential failure.

It has been prepped for a paired spoke rim :)

[christian]

That hub is junk. The lacing error is in the lower right quadrant.

[foo_fighter]

That hub is junk. The lacing error is in the lower right quadrant.

I think I see it now too. The bottom right vertical spoke is coming off almost radially, instead of almost tangentially.

[mosca]

It looks as if the pattern is correct except that it was off by one hole (one side relative to the other) and as you increased the tension the hub twisted as the spoke tensions tried to equalize. Hub is definitely junk though.

[wss]

You definitely made a lacing error. In the profile pic, look at the spoke running to the 3 o'clock position. Go down 4 spoke positions at the rim. That spoke should be in the same orientation as the one at 3 o'clock (head out, from same flange). It's not. .........

I really can't see what you mean? If you use the picture above the profile picture, what you state isn't true. That picture is clearer.
PS, I tried to post that picture again but it's telling me the picture is already posted in the thread.

Here are 2 pictures of the inside of the hub shell. Top is the damage, bottom photo is the other end.