Fragile Fitness

[stephenmarklay]

Over the last month I have been ramping up my trainer time. I worked up to about 11-12 hours the last week but I have come to the conclusion that it is just to difficult mentally and time wise for me. I work 10 hours a day so I train at 5:00am and its a big push.

Therefore, I am going to do more tempo and less endurance pace. I will strive to get a long ride in on the weekend if weather permits.

Training for 2 hours is doable most days for me but at an endurance pace I won't get a lot of fitness or push up my FTP.

I started "sweet spot" base training using trainer road.

Any advice?

[sandyrs]

Get rollers.

I'm not being snarky. I started riding rollers instead of the trainer for the bulk of my indoor riding last winter and ended up starting off the spring with a much smoother pedal stroke, no burnout (you can only work so hard on rollers before you spin out unless you're using the tiny Kreitler barrels), a solid base, and no worn out tires. I still mixed in the trainer for variety or longer rides during a weekend blizzard (I, at least, can't ride for three hours on rollers under any circumstances).

[christian]

Be careful.

I was doing 8-10 hours of training per week in the spring and early summer, combined with long hours at the job (and lots of sitting) and not enough sleep. I managed to injure my lower back and have been on the bike twice since July, and the lowest miles I've had any year since 1995.

I'd urge caution. You're not getting paid to ride your bike, so keep it fun.

[Hank Scorpio]

What the heck?@!? You are 50% of our team!!!!!!!

I hurt my right calf last weekend so I am laying off the trainer for the week. Probably hit the rollers though.

[TMB]

I opted not to go the gym this morning, even though was scheduled.

I am cross training with a snow shovel.


Fitness comes from all sorts of places.

[stephenmarklay]

What the heck?@!? You are 50% of our team!!!!!!!

I hurt my right calf last weekend so I am laying off the trainer for the week. Probably hit the rollers though.

That's right. TOO funny. I am not giving up Hank I am just setting groundwork for a good season not being to burned out :banana:

[stephenmarklay]

Be careful.

I was doing 8-10 hours of training per week in the spring and early summer, combined with long hours at the job (and lots of sitting) and not enough sleep. I managed to injure my lower back and have been on the bike twice since July, and the lowest miles I've had any year since 1995.

I'd urge caution. You're not getting paid to ride your bike, so keep it fun.


I raced about 5 years ago and almost rode myself into the coffin. I had a coach and damned if I didn't stick to the schedule.

I was up to almost 20 hours at the end of base. That was all on the trainer. Doing 4-5 hour trainer rides is not happening this time around.

At that time, I was not sleeping much at all and I looked pretty bad. I was skinny and looked pale. I had good fitness though and did well in racing out of the gate.

I recovered from that just walking and getting my life and head normal again.

I learned that when I start to get overtrained my sleeping goes out the window. It actually is a good indicator for me now.

Thanks for the warning. Having fun is important and if I am doing nothing else but training it won't be.

[stephenmarklay]

Get rollers.

I'm not being snarky. I started riding rollers instead of the trainer for the bulk of my indoor riding last winter and ended up starting off the spring with a much smoother pedal stroke, no burnout (you can only work so hard on rollers before you spin out unless you're using the tiny Kreitler barrels), a solid base, and no worn out tires. I still mixed in the trainer for variety or longer rides during a weekend blizzard (I, at least, can't ride for three hours on rollers under any circumstances).

Thanks. I do actually have some great Inside Ride rollers. I use them also. I used them exclusively when I was training really hard and they were great.

[dekindy]

Do the Intermediate Build I training program and work on FTP. 3.5 hours total time in 3 workouts per week. Work on base outdoors in the Spring. Workouts are intensive but you can scale them down if needed. 10 hours on a trainer with your work schedule might be counterproductive; at least it would be for me.

[Mikej]

That's a heavy load - you are northern hemisphere, right? I'd look more into a different sport until March - then hit it. You're gonna be burned out before the season starts.

[shovelhd]

Over the last month I have been ramping up my trainer time. I worked up to about 11-12 hours the last week but I have come to the conclusion that it is just to difficult mentally and time wise for me. I work 10 hours a day so I train at 5:00am and its a big push.

Therefore, I am going to do more tempo and less endurance pace. I will strive to get a long ride in on the weekend if weather permits.

Training for 2 hours is doable most days for me but at an endurance pace I won't get a lot of fitness or push up my FTP.

I started "sweet spot" base training using trainer road.

Any advice?

Doing more tempo at the same rate is just going to burn you out faster and make you very good at riding tempo. You're going to have to add intensity in order to push (threshold workouts) or pull (VO2Max workouts) your FTP up. At the same time you will have to add more rest. When is your first event?

[stephenmarklay]

Doing more tempo at the same rate is just going to burn you out faster and make you very good at riding tempo. You're going to have to add intensity in order to push (threshold workouts) or pull (VO2Max workouts) your FTP up. At the same time you will have to add more rest. When is your first event?

Thank you. My plan was to reduce the overall hours so that I was doing less. The plan I am looking at has workouts that are between 60-120 minutes and that is perfect.

There is some simple endurance in the program too. This would be 12 weeks like a standard pure endurance program.

I would do then do a build from there with more intensity. That would last up to racing.

Since I am just getting back into racing I am not really planning. I will do some local races and Gran Fondo events.

Tomorrow I will lay out a calendar and see how it all falls.

[Ti Designs]

I went on a group ride this past weekend and found that most riders don't know about the old school methods of winter training. They were all on their good road bikes, mostly in the large chainring, riding like it's July. There's a point to winter training, the old school methods may seem stone age compared to power meter training plans, but they still have lots of advantages.

If you ride all season, and you're not getting any faster come September, what would make you think doing the same thing all winter is going to make you faster? The simple answer to that is people equate hard work with results. Before you go putting in that hard work, ask yourself where the gains are to be had?

Old school winter training means the winter fixed gear with fenders - it's heavy and slow, and that's a good thing. For gearing you start with slightly unreasonable, so you can just about keep up on the down hills. When your spin gets smoother and faster, you can go lower. By the late winter you'll be able to hold 130RPM with your heart rate just above rest. You also bring food and make sure you send down 150 calories/hour. Two reasons: First, bonking on a fixed gear sucks. Second, you need to teach your body how to process food and produce power at the same time. Need I remind you that the sprint that counts most in racing is the one at the end?

Riding the fixed gear on the road or doing base mileage on the trainer has another key goal - to make changes in pedal technique second nature. My trainer base mileage workout has a simple format: Large gear, medium gear, small gear, medium gear... To start with there's a gear change every minute. The trick is to match the muscle group used with the resistance at the pedals. Hard gear, get the body weight on the pedals and use the glutes. Medium gear get the quads firing over the top. Small gear just thinking about getting the pedals over the top faster. On the fixed gear hills and headwinds will make the changes for you. If you get this right, it'll be second nature by the time you need to be doing higher intensity work.

[shovelhd]

I'm old school and used to do all of my training up until February on the fixed gear with a front brake. I also had a rule of no big ring every year until I had 1,000 miles on the fixed or on the road bike in the little ring. I don't train like that anymore but I understand the philosophy well. It got me to Cat2.

I replaced that with strength and adaptation work coupled with frequent spin ups. Once I have enough base for sprint work I start sprint workouts using only the little ring to build leg speed and pedaling efficiency.

[stephenmarklay]

I went on a group ride this past weekend and found that most riders don't know about the old school methods of winter training. They were all on their good road bikes, mostly in the large chainring, riding like it's July. There's a point to winter training, the old school methods may seem stone age compared to power meter training plans, but they still have lots of advantages.

If you ride all season, and you're not getting any faster come September, what would make you think doing the same thing all winter is going to make you faster? The simple answer to that is people equate hard work with results. Before you go putting in that hard work, ask yourself where the gains are to be had?

Old school winter training means the winter fixed gear with fenders - it's heavy and slow, and that's a good thing. For gearing you start with slightly unreasonable, so you can just about keep up on the down hills. When your spin gets smoother and faster, you can go lower. By the late winter you'll be able to hold 130RPM with your heart rate just above rest. You also bring food and make sure you send down 150 calories/hour. Two reasons: First, bonking on a fixed gear sucks. Second, you need to teach your body how to process food and produce power at the same time. Need I remind you that the sprint that counts most in racing is the one at the end?

Riding the fixed gear on the road or doing base mileage on the trainer has another key goal - to make changes in pedal technique second nature. My trainer base mileage workout has a simple format: Large gear, medium gear, small gear, medium gear... To start with there's a gear change every minute. The trick is to match the muscle group used with the resistance at the pedals. Hard gear, get the body weight on the pedals and use the glutes. Medium gear get the quads firing over the top. Small gear just thinking about getting the pedals over the top faster. On the fixed gear hills and headwinds will make the changes for you. If you get this right, it'll be second nature by the time you need to be doing higher intensity work.


Unfortunately, during the winter my outside riding is once or twice a week at best and none at worst. Nothing can be achieved with that.

So not inlike a lot of folks, the question is what is the best way to spend the limited trainer time during the winter. I don't have the answers but I think it lies somewhere between the time crunched cyclist and the rung out 20 hour per week cave workouts.

[stephenmarklay]

I'm old school and used to do all of my training up until February on the fixed gear with a front brake. I also had a rule of no big ring every year until I had 1,000 miles on the fixed or on the road bike in the little ring. I don't train like that anymore but I understand the philosophy well. It got me to Cat2.

I replaced that with strength and adaptation work coupled with frequent spin ups. Once I have enough base for sprint work I start sprint workouts using only the little ring to build leg speed and pedaling efficiency.

Can you be more specific on your current training methodology?

[stephenmarklay]

Here are some thoughts from Hunter Allen (sorry if you don't like his philosophy).
I do like the perspective on rest in the off-season but still working hard.
http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/2014/11/off-season-training.html

and another:
http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/2013/09/how-to-rebuild-your-power-foundation.html

[Ti Designs]

I'm old school and used to do all of my training up until February on the fixed gear with a front brake. I also had a rule of no big ring every year until I had 1,000 miles on the fixed or on the road bike in the little ring. I don't train like that anymore but I understand the philosophy well. It got me to Cat2.

I replaced that with strength and adaptation work coupled with frequent spin ups. Once I have enough base for sprint work I start sprint workouts using only the little ring to build leg speed and pedaling efficiency.

The front brake on a fixed gear goes without saying, crashing is never the best way to fitness... The simple old school rules still make sense - 1000 miles of base on a fixed gear, each pedal stroke is a stress cycle which strengthens connective tissue. Don't increase intensity until your body is ready for it...

I have two basic speedwork drills, if you described the first one any better you would have called them telephone pole drills...

[shovelhd]

Can you be more specific on your current training methodology?

So much depends on your age, category, types of races, riding and racing history, and general health. What would be specific for me may be totally wrong for you. My racing age is 57, Category 2, and I race all Masters categories as well as P/1/2 with or without the 3, at the national level.

Another important point is when your season will start, when your first A race comes, how many A races and whether you are going to build and maintain or have one or more peaks. You can't do both at my age.

The road season starts the first week in March for me. The first race in my age group is usually in the middle of April. I start training the first week in December after a long taper in the fall. This is where many racers go wrong. They are so happy to be riding in groups without structure that they dig themselves a big hole before they even start training. You want to go into the start of training with at least two weeks of zero TSB without any hard rides.

I'll do core in the gym and base work with increasing intensity to start. Next comes S&A work on the bike before two build cycles. The second build cycle will start somewhere around the time I start racing.

[shovelhd]

The front brake on a fixed gear goes without saying, crashing is never the best way to fitness... The simple old school rules still make sense - 1000 miles of base on a fixed gear, each pedal stroke is a stress cycle which strengthens connective tissue. Don't increase intensity until your body is ready for it...

I have two basic speedwork drills, if you described the first one any better you would have called them telephone pole drills...

They absolutely still make sense, and a few of the domestic pros I know still train that way. I just do things differently now.

I have never heard of telephone drills. What I was referring to are things like big gear hill repeats to failure, which can also be done inside.

[Ti Designs]

I have never heard of telephone drills. What I was referring to are things like big gear hill repeats to failure, which can also be done inside.

Yep, those would be the other one. Sprinting, like anything else in cycling has component parts - leg speed and power. In order to put together a race winning sprint you need both, so it makes sense to work on each component part in isolation before trying to add them together.

The two drills I have my riders do are telephone pole drills, where they roll up in a small gear at a low speed and must accelerate to maximum RPMs before the next pole. The other is into a steep hill in a high gear. The combination of the hill and the gear keep the cadence low, so the rider can figure out the sequence of muscles needed to produce power.

I'm getting ahead of myself here, it's november and we should be talking base. Speed is fun, but it's all built of the foundation of lots of time on the bike.

[stephenmarklay]

Thanks you guys. The discussion is helpful. I was just reading about "polarized" training. This is not really new but the research is better.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2014/10/polarized-training-update.html

[Look585]

My opinion:

Most racers do way too much tempo and way too little intensity.

2x20 or 4x12 at or near your threshold power should take less than 90 minutes on the trainer including warmup and cool down. Pair that with some rollers work and you'll be fitter than most when it comes time to race.

Go harder not longer. You are training for a 60min crit or 3hr road race, not a 3 week stage race.

Sent from mobile device

[shovelhd]

2x20's are fine in the mix but if that is what you focus on you'll be good at threshold and get crushed when the surges hit. Anyone that races mass start has to do VO2Max work.

[shovelhd]

Yep, those would be the other one. Sprinting, like anything else in cycling has component parts - leg speed and power. In order to put together a race winning sprint you need both, so it makes sense to work on each component part in isolation before trying to add them together.

The two drills I have my riders do are telephone pole drills, where they roll up in a small gear at a low speed and must accelerate to maximum RPMs before the next pole. The other is into a steep hill in a high gear. The combination of the hill and the gear keep the cadence low, so the rider can figure out the sequence of muscles needed to produce power.

I'm getting ahead of myself here, it's november and we should be talking base. Speed is fun, but it's all built of the foundation of lots of time on the bike.

I do those by time not distance but the concept is the same.

[Ti Designs]

2x20's are fine in the mix but if that is what you focus on you'll be good at threshold and get crushed when the surges hit. Anyone that races mass start has to do VO2Max work.

The real trick is building a complete cyclist, not just a snap sprinter or 3K guy. That means you need to constantly get a gauge on what your strengths or weaknesses are and alter your program based on what you see.

In the past few years I've really focused my attention on one aspect of riding per year and really got into technique work to offset my age. The down side of high intensity training is the wasted energy that so often comes with it. Reducing that wasted energy by doing pedal stroke work now has made a huge difference in my performance. I spend the first half of the winter not thinking about producing more power, but about producing the same amount of power at a lower heart rate.

[Ti Designs]

I do those by time not distance but the concept is the same.

I work with newer riders and you've been around the block a few times...

Part of the learning process in speedwork is timing - how long it takes to come around someone. You can think of that in three ways, time, distance or effort. In doing lead-out drills I tell my riders they should be able to go from the draft to wheel in front in six pedal strokes. There's no line to target in that drill, no concern about time, it's just getting around someone. There's a lot of technique involved in accelerating straight past someone who was right in front of you two seconds ago... Then there are efforts by time. On terms of training, this is probably the best way, but it's also leaving something out.

New riders lose races by misjudging distance. As soon as my riders grasp the concept of how to get around someone (if you're laughing at this, you could always show up for a speedwork session...) the idea of a line is introduced. It's the single most complex part of racing, knowing who's around you, getting a sense of who's blown and who's not, knowing distance to the line at 35 MPH... Coaching tactics in sprinting is fun, coaching tactics to really smart riders is the best. Two seasons ago I was doing a speedwork session with one of my riders, I faked and acceleration a bit early and he was by me before he knew it. He sat up and didn't contest that sprint at all. When I asked why, he said we're doing a dozen sprints that day and he clearly wasn't winning that one. He's a cat 2 now...

[stephenmarklay]

Thanks for the tidbits in this. I guess my subject was right on. Fragile Fitness.

It all seems a bit of a mystery but it does seem that Sweet Spot training may not be best even if it works for some. It may work for me not have a ton of fitness better than you guys that have a lot under your belt.

I did get out today for over 3 hours on country roads just looking at the scenery.

[shovelhd]

I coach a Cat5 clinic although this might be an off year. There is no magic formula that works for every racer and every event. The most important thing you can learn to do is to listen to your body atmo.

[AngryScientist]

The real trick is building a complete cyclist, not just a snap sprinter or 3K guy. That means you need to constantly get a gauge on what your strengths or weaknesses are and alter your program based on what you see.



absolutely agree. i have more of a running background than cycling, and the exact same philosophy applies. there is no magic formula that works for every runner or cyclist. similarly, the same successful program does not work year after year. "adaptive training" is the philosophy, and should be based almost on a per-week schedule, based on how the training is progressing and how the body responds in both the macro, and that day. i'm still learning myself, and developing what i think is a good training program, but my point is that hard and fast training programs are probably not for you, but something more tailored toward "in the moment" fitness works better.

[shovelhd]

One thing I see often with racers is the fear of losing fitness. They dig a big hole trying to keep fitness year round when they only race for 6-7 months. It's OK to lose fitness. It gives the body rest. Rest builds strength.

[Ti Designs]

rest builds strength.

+1,000,000,000

[HenryA]

I'd work on core strength now and not so much on riding. Then bump up the riding in January or February. And as noted above plenty of rest. You only get stronger with plenty of rest.