Ti frame repair?

[Keith A]

I have a friend who crashed recently and cracked his Litespeed frame at the top tube and seat tube joint. He was thinking the frame was toast, but I mentioned this could probably be repaired. I haven't seen the crack myself yet, so I can't elaborate on the extent of the damage. But I wanted to get some recommendations on who to use for this repair and any guesstimation of what the repair cost might be.

Thanks!

[oldpotatoe]

I have a friend who crashed recently and cracked his Litespeed frame at the top tube and seat tube joint. He was thinking the frame was toast, but I mentioned this could probably be repaired. I haven't seen the crack myself yet, so I can't elaborate on the extent of the damage. But I wanted to get some recommendations on who to use for this repair and any guesstimation of what the repair cost might be.

Thanks!

No idea of the $, but Mark Nobilette or Nalby Viroqua..both Boulder types.

Maybe Bilenky

[eddief]

http://www.bikeframerepair.com/Pricing.html

[zap]

When my Litespeed cracked (poorly designed bullet cap) the quote I received from Litespeed was $400 plus shipping back and forth. It wasn't worth it to me-hated the frame and it was just going to crack again.

I gave the frame to a friend who promptly cut it up and used some of the tubes for a project he was working on.

[Keith A]

Thanks for the input so far. A related question is if there is anyone that he should avoid?

[fogrider]

well, it just depends on the frame...how old is it, what condition, etc. how much is a replacement?

[Louis]

I'd use that as an excuse to retire the frame and replace it with something even better. (used if he's trying to save $$)

[pcxmbfj]

I've found Litespeed to be high when I inquired.

Unless your friend can meet the frame repairer in person to assess before and after I'd give it up.

[Keith A]

Thanks for all the input! The bike is a Litespeed Ghisallo and he has had this for several years. He already has a replacement, but was trying to figure out what to do with the Ghisallo frameset. He likes the bike and didn't want to just toss it, and thus my reason for trying to get some info about repairing Ti for him.

[Mikej]

Is the actual seat tube cracked? If so, it's generally considered scrap. I've seen Potts replace a seat tube, but it was on a bike he had an attachment to. Not sure if welding a ti tube near a previous weld is something a reputable builder would attempt due to the already weakened nature of the joint post original weld. You really won't have much luck welding a tube outside of a joint.

[mnoble485]

Keith,

I was able to pick up a Ti Lemond several years ago that had cracks at the bottle cage bosses. found a guy in St. Petersburg that built Ti wheelchairs for athletes. His work was really respected in the community. Left the frame with him to study and see if he could fix it. Long story short I rode the frame for a couple of years.

You might check locally for someone like him.

Mike

[efaust_o]

Eagle One...Without a doubt...Send me an e-mail and I will reply with the scoop..
Ed

[Keith A]

Eagle One...Without a doubt...Send me an e-mail and I will reply with the scoop..
EdThanks Ed, email sent.

[cash05458]

I had a lemond ti/carbon with a crack on ti downtube...had it repaired and think I got another 600 miles out of it and then it cracked again...ti seems like maybe a touchy repair...

[Keith A]

Stopped by the bike shop today to check out my friend's bike and it looks a more difficult repair than what I was expecting. There are actually two cracks and neither of them are along the weld seam. Here's a couple of pictures I took...

[AngryScientist]

put a fork in it. that bike is done.

[gasman]

Bye-Bye

Get a new frame

[Keith A]

My friend already has a new frameset, but was thinking this could be repaired as a backup. Not looking too good.

[Dead Man]

Hmmm.... What's he want for it?

[Keith A]

Hmmm.... What's he want for it?No idea, but it's a small frame. I can ask him...if you really want to know.

[Louis]

Pull the components and find something fun to do with the tubes.

Maybe wind-chimes, or something like that.

http://s3-production.bobvila.com/slides/8182/widened/c9e132d9f6dd8cd5b5d3ee25b20e126f.jpg?1395872929

http://www.oocities.org/teeley2/tubing.html

[Dead Man]

No idea, but it's a small frame. I can ask him...if you really want to know.

I'm a small guy. :)

What size, do you know?

[Jeff N.]

The Ghisallo is/was made with very thin-walled titanium tubing which is why it was always touted as being the lightest Ti frameset on the market at the time. I'm thinking that frame is unreparable and probably not worth the time or money to repair it even if one could. Might be good "yard art" though...

[djg21]

I had a 2003 Vortex that was broken in half in 2006 when I got clobbered by a car. Litespeed replaced the top, down and head tubes (regular head tube swapped for integrated too) for a very reasonable price.

I'd try Litespeed, or if an older Lynskey designed Litespeed, maybe Lynskey.

[Keith A]

I'm a small guy. :)

What size, do you know?I'll ask and let you know what I find out.

[stephenmarklay]

I have seen a lot of cracked TI frames lately. I thought it was durable compared to steel? Is it more brittle?

[grawk]

No one bothers to post pictures of their damaged steel frames

[FlashUNC]

Put a fork in it. That thing is done.

But now I'm curious how those cracks were caused. Odd location. I've seen plenty of Litespeeds of that vintage crack at the welds. This is new, to me at least.

[oldpotatoe]

My friend already has a new frameset, but was thinking this could be repaired as a backup. Not looking too good.

it's future

[Keith A]

FlashUNC -- I saw the crash and just barely avoided running over him as I was just a couple of riders behind him. It was a group bike ride and we were doing about 27 mph, the owner went off the road and hit a trash can (big plastic one) which bounced him back on the road. He hit the pavement pretty hard, but just slid on the road, no tumbling or flying up in the air...and he wasn't hit by any other rider.

[FlashUNC]

FlashUNC -- I saw the crash and just barely avoided running over him as I was just a couple of riders behind him. It was a group bike ride and we were doing about 27 mph, the owner went off the road and hit a trash can (big plastic one) which bounced him back on the road. He hit the pavement pretty hard, but just slid on the road, no tumbling or flying up in the air...and he wasn't hit by any other rider.

Odd. Almost looks like the seatpost flexed or moved inside the tube causing the cracks.

[Keith A]

Odd. Almost looks like the seatpost flexed or moved inside the tube causing the cracks.I was expecting to see cracks along the weld seam(s), but these survived okay.

[Louis]

I have seen a lot of cracked TI frames lately. I thought it was durable compared to steel? Is it more brittle?

In general: Yes, No.

[FlashUNC]

I was expecting to see cracks along the weld seam(s), but these survived okay.

Agreed. The cracks are almost perpendicular to where you'd expect them to be.

[tiretrax]

I came across a ti framemaker in Dallas that specializes in repairs. I can't vouch for it. If I can find the name, I'll PM you and post it.

[Keith A]

I came across a ti framemaker in Dallas that specializes in repairs. I can't vouch for it. If I can find the name, I'll PM you and post it.Thanks.

[ntb1001]

I've seen a local guy who does cf repairs. I saw him fix a ti frame with a layer of carbon wrapped over the damaged area...maybe something like that would work??

[Oregonic]

Dave Levy at TiCycles in Portland.

http://ticycles.com/TCF/services-framerepair.html

It looks toasted, but maybe they could put in a new seat tube?

[Keith A]

Dave Levy at TiCycles in Portland.

http://ticycles.com/TCF/services-framerepair.html

It looks toasted, but maybe they could put in a new seat tube?Thanks for the info!

[Dead Man]

Still interested, btw :)

[Keith A]

Still interested, btw :)I've sent a message to my friend letting him know of your interest and I've asked him the size of this frame.

[pbarry]

Two ways to fix this: 1. Machine the seat tube down 3-4 inches, press fit in a double male insert with a new ST top; butt weld the joint; weld seat stays and top tube. 2. Remove seat tube, and weld new tube. Number 1 would be more cost effective if you can find a willing and well equipped shop.

[abalone]

I just saw a used Merlin go for about $500 on eBay. If $400 is the repair cost on a frame, I would be tempted just to check Craiglisting and eBay to see if there are any good deals on a used Ti frame.

[Keith A]

Still interested, btw :)Finally spoke the owner about the possibility of selling this and would be interested in doing so. Here's a side shot of the bike. BTW, check out the Caloi by EM peaking through in this picture.

[Dead Man]

Perhaps he wants to shoot me an email with frame size and thoughts on price? deadestman@gmail.com

[Mikej]

Two ways to fix this: 1. Machine the seat tube down 3-4 inches, press fit in a double male insert with a new ST top; butt weld the joint; weld seat stays and top tube. 2. Remove seat tube, and weld new tube. Number 1 would be more cost effective if you can find a willing and well equipped shop.

It doesn't work like that. It is VERY difficult to mill out that seat tube and replace and weld with alignment. That joint is going to pull all over the place. Plus you would need to sleeve the ends of the tubes. All of the tubes that touch the seat tube have already been welded. You need to move down the tube to re-weld, otherwise you will end up with the same failure. That's why nobody replaces seat tubes on ti. Except once Steve Potts did it. Most ti tube repair procedures are a cut / section tube and re-install a new front half of a triangle which would consist of a new head tube, new DT and new TT welded to the old half of the frame "in the middle". Remember, those Ghisallos were some weird titanium proprietary blend. That frame is ready to be made into a $4k set of wind chimes to joke about with your riding buddies.

[Keith A]

I wanted to thank everyone for all the input on this Ti frame repair. Not sure what the owner is going to do at this point.

[pbarry]

It doesn't work like that. It is VERY difficult to mill out that seat tube and replace and weld with alignment. That joint is going to pull all over the place. Plus you would need to sleeve the ends of the tubes. All of the tubes that touch the seat tube have already been welded. You need to move down the tube to re-weld, otherwise you will end up with the same failure. That's why nobody replaces seat tubes on ti. Except once Steve Potts did it. Most ti tube repair procedures are a cut / section tube and re-install a new front half of a triangle which would consist of a new head tube, new DT and new TT welded to the old half of the frame "in the middle". Remember, those Ghisallos were some weird titanium proprietary blend. That frame is ready to be made into a $4k set of wind chimes to joke about with your riding buddies.

Yes, I realize the difficulty, having been in charge of repairs at Merlin. Yep, you'd need to cut out several inches, well below the cracked area. Or, replace the whole tube. It could be done, and would be better than new if a thick wall machined Ti ST top/insert was installed, but it's probably not worth the $$.

[Mikej]

Yes, I realize the difficulty, having been in charge of repairs at Merlin. Yep, you'd need to cut out several inches, well below the cracked area. Or, replace the whole tube. It could be done, and would be better than new if a thick wall machined Ti ST top/insert was installed, but it's probably not worth the $$.

Ok you get more street cred than I gave you! Just a very expensive job nowadays-

[Keith A]

Yes, I realize the difficulty, having been in charge of repairs at Merlin. Yep, you'd need to cut out several inches, well below the cracked area. Or, replace the whole tube. It could be done, and would be better than new if a thick wall machined Ti ST top/insert was installed, but it's probably not worth the $$.To my untrained eye, I think replacing the whole downtube would be difficult as there is a bunch of shaping done on it -- especially as it approaches the bottom bracket area and this tube really flattens out and isn't even close to be round. However, I didn't notice what it looked like at the bb joint.

[thwart]

Just a random technical question from someone who knows little about welding...

Since the tube itself cracked rather than at the welds, does this speak to:

1) great welds, and hey, it just had to give somewhere

2) given the relatively low impact crash---maybe too thin and fragile titanium was used in this area, or

3) too much heat used while welding causing the tubes in the seat cluster area to become more brittle and fragile

[pbarry]

To my untrained eye, I think replacing the whole downtube would be difficult as there is a bunch of shaping done on it -- especially as it approaches the bottom bracket area and this tube really flattens out and isn't even close to be round. However, I didn't notice what it looked like at the bb joint.

Assuming you meant seat tube? Tho the DT has some shaping going on near the BB. Yeah, that can't be replicated easily. Has your friend spoken to Litespeed about this? They might offer a steep discount on a new frame if this frame is still in warranty.

[Keith A]

Duh, yes I meant seat tube. He hasn't communicated with Litespeed, but that's a good idea.

[pbarry]

Just a random technical question from someone who knows little about welding...

Since the tube itself cracked rather than at the welds, does this speak to:

1) great welds, and hey, it just had to give somewhere

2) given the relatively low impact crash---maybe too thin and fragile titanium was used in this area, or

3) too much heat used while welding causing the tubes in the seat cluster area to become more brittle and fragile

These were built with ultra thin butted tubes. Number 1 is my guess.

#2, yes but it worked well for how many miles? First 1,000 gram Ti production frame, iirc. There are tradeoffs.

#3, no. Good work from the boys in TN.

[fmradio516]

I have a friend who crashed recently and cracked his Litespeed frame at the top tube and seat tube joint. He was thinking the frame was toast, but I mentioned this could probably be repaired. I haven't seen the crack myself yet, so I can't elaborate on the extent of the damage. But I wanted to get some recommendations on who to use for this repair and any guesstimation of what the repair cost might be.

Thanks!

I've always wondered about this myself

[oldpotatoe]

Yes, I realize the difficulty, having been in charge of repairs at Merlin. Yep, you'd need to cut out several inches, well below the cracked area. Or, replace the whole tube. It could be done, and would be better than new if a thick wall machined Ti ST top/insert was installed, but it's probably not worth the $$.

The depth of knowledge in this place continues to amaze me.

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks for all the input! The bike is a Litespeed Ghisallo and he has had this for several years. He already has a replacement, but was trying to figure out what to do with the Ghisallo frameset. He likes the bike and didn't want to just toss it, and thus my reason for trying to get some info about repairing Ti for him.

Guy I knew bought a Ghisallo on the interweb..not adverted but came with a front der..thought that was unusual, until, took clampon FD off, and saw how the seat tube there was crimped, from the FD clamp. Yes, very thin walled stuff, that frame.

[Keith A]

Guy I knew bought a Ghisallo on the interweb..not adverted but came with a front der..thought that was unusual, until, took clampon FD off, and saw how the seat tube there was crimped, from the FD clamp. Yes, very thin walled stuff, that frame.The shape of the seat tube really does flatten out as it goes from top to bottom and it seems like the shape itself could cause higher stress levels in certain areas from the FD clamp (although I can't recall exactly the shape of the tubing at the FD clamp location.)