OT: Stop me before I buy an SUV!

[Tom]

So... the Civic Si is rusting out, has high mileage, large maint bills coming. I start looking at cars. Honda, for reasons unknown, stopped making the Si hatchback again. Dummies.

I want to pay less than $25k, get good gas mileage, be able to stick stuff in the back (one bike and spare wheels at least) and enjoy driving the thing.

- Subaru Outback Sport compact wagon (OK gas mileage, many of them around so they seem to last well)
- Saab 9-2x which is basically the Subaru with heated seats, noise deadening and a longer warranty for a couple thou more and appeals to my shallow yuppie image conscious side
- Honda Element. It looks great, is cheap, can carry the bikes, I don't have to leave my fave mechanics, and I can get it dirty and I won't care. Did I mention it was cheap? But, but, but... it's an SUV! Lord help me, what have I become?

The other thing about the Element is that if I don't slow down I'm going to either die in a fiery auto crash or get the speeding tickets I so richly deserve.

[CarbonCycles]

Don't forget to throw a Toyota FJ Cruiser into the mix. The cars you listed are drastically different in both style and performance (i use that term liberally here). The Saab and Outback as you said are one in the same; I personally would NOT pay the name premium for the Saab when the Subie does 90% of the job cheaper. The Element has not impressed me because it's anemic in hp and well honestly looks like a box on wheels. I mention the FJ Cruiser since:
1) It's a Yoda and they run and run forever
2) It's using the same platform as the 4runner and the more expensive Lexus GX470 (otherwise the Prado overseas)
3) Has gotten rave reviews by the press for both its on-road and off-road (if you go the 4x4 route) manner
4) Is perfect for a person who is into outdoors since the cargo area is made of some plastic material that you can wash right out (similar to the Element)
5) Priced w/in the range you wanted

Either way, the real test is for you to go test-drive them all and see what you find. Best of luck!

[stevep]

buy a camry for $16,000 and throw the extra $6k into a new bike.
theres room in the back for an easy bike and a few wheels.

[BigDaddySmooth]

I think you can get one for $20-21K. Decent mpg, safety rating, AWD and not made by the makers of the gas-sucking behemoths that put everyone else at risk.

[saab2000]

VW GTI. Nothing more needs to be said.

Don't get some modified tractor to drive on the road. Get a car. SUVs are terribly space inefficient. If you need more space, get a minivan.

If I absolutely had to have an SUV I would get either Cheverolet Equinox or a Toyota RAV 4 (the new one).

But if you want a terrific car (can be bought with AWD if you really believe you need it) a VW Passat wagon has tons of space and is a satisfying drive.

Or you could get a Saab! :D

IMHO, the only reason to have a big SUV is for towing capacity. For that a truck or truck-based SUV cannot be beat.

[SManning]

I have a Ford Freestyle and absolutely love it. I've had it for 1 yr. and 3 months and it's been a great car. I went on a trip to Vermont for NORBA Nationals this summer and we fit 3 bikes inside the car (standing up), plus all of our gear and three people. We had two more bikes on the hitch rack in the back. I do a mix of highway and city driving and I get 20.5 mpg, with the AWD model.

I know that some people give Ford a bad wrap, but this is basically a Volvo (It's built on the XC90 platform) with the Ford name on it. It has a 5-star front and side crash rating, without the side airbags. The headrests have also been found to be the best for guarding against whiplash.

Here's a link to a picture of my car...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=9201&page=6&pp=15

[Argos]

I went from German engineering with a Roof Rack to the Element. I have a homemade fork mount rack for longer trips, though my size bikes fit in without taking the wheels or seat off. I also got the 2" reciever hitch and a rack for that for longer trips or trips with the family.

My Jetta, after 6 years and 155,000 miles, was still getting 32 on the hwy on road trips, even with bikes on the roof. The problem was a babyseat takes up half the back and the Dog takes up at least that much so we needed something where she would not pull his ears and he would not constantly try to steal her snacks. Leg room for everyone. I miss that car.

I got the AWD Element with the Automatic and the Sunroof, and those options are [I think] 150lbs more then the standard w/2wd. That said, I get 22-24 around town. Not too shaby for a box. I've only done one "road trip" so far. It was not that far either, maybe 100 each way, but all interstate and my milage was 28. Again, not bad for a box.

Thursday night, The Wife, Baby, a Bike, and myself are heading to NY. I'll post the Milage Next Wednesday when I get back, but I expect it to be pretty good. Maybe not the 30-35 we'd see in the Passat, but I really wanna bring my bike.

At the trail head or at the parking lot for a road ride you can get in and change with room to spare. And though I have yet to sleep in it, there are some Mtn bike events this summer that have me planning on doing that.

I also notice more and more of them in parking lots at events. They are becoming the new VW of bike racing. Instead of everyone pulling up in a jetta or subaru, an awful lot of Elements are showing up.

3 people, aside from me, have them at the shop I do a little part time work at, as well as many customers.

Not only is the element great for bikes, but this past weekend at LOWE's I put 6 bags of Potting Soil and 6 bags of Lime (480 lbs) plus some plants in the back, no problem. I only had to go 2 miles, but I would've had to make more trips if I did not have it.

I think the Element is a good vehicle so long as you accept it for what it is. Do I love it. No. I really like it. I would have rather gotten the new Civic or the new jetta. Those I would have loved, but they would not have been as capable. And other SUV's do not offer either the low loading, interior seat versatility, or ease of cleaning. You CAN vacuum or hose it out.

It's a good option, both in it's class and compared to the others you are considering.

http://elementownersclub.com/

[Blastinbob]

Go check out the new mazda's, they've come a long way in design and durability, a very solid car. They make a 5dr 3 series that gets good gas mileage and is fun to drive. I spent a lot of time researching, driving small cars for my daughter a little over a year ago. I wished she could have afforded the mazda but it was out of her budget, so my son bought a 4dr. last oct. and loves it. Mazda 3 5dr (http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/images/04mazda3_3.jpg)
I like the VW's but once past warranty look out for expensive repair bills. It's also hard to go wrong with anything Toyota and Honda build.

You could also be the first on your block to own one of these.Toyota FJ cruiser (http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/fj_cruiser/index.html?s_van=GM_FUTURE_FJ_LANDING_BULLETIN)

[William]

As a lover & former owner of high performance vehicles, I can't believe that I'm going to say this......go green as you can, get a gas-electric hybrid. With gas/oil prices going up, up, up...it seems the wise thing to do.


William

Besides, you might just be helping an Inuit in shorts.

Short shorts (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11951694/)

[Blastinbob]

As a lover & former owner of high performance vehicles, I can't believe that I'm going to say this......go green as you can, get a gas-electric hybrid. With gas/oil prices going up, up, up...it seems the wise thing to do.


William

Besides, you might just be helping an Inuit in shorts.

Short shorts (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11951694/)
The lastest study on the values of purchasing a hybrid say there is little or no savings for most (just saw it the other day, sorry Tom) and that they will most likely cost more in the long run due to higher initial vehicle cost, higher insurance cost, expensive battery replacements and lower resale values.

[JohnS]

The Subarus and Saabs require premium gas.
Most Elements aren't true SUV's since they are front wheel drive only
Check out the Mazda 3. If you feel your yuppieness, there's the Volvo S40 (same car).
Everyone b*tches about hybrids not paying their way. Did you ever think that some buy it just because it's good for the environment? Besides, when gas is up to $3-3.50/gallon, it'll pay its way, then.

[Ozz]

The problem with most hybrids is that the manufacturers are using the technology to squeese more performance (hp & torque) out of the motors without necessarily improving the gas mileage all that much. Prius and whatever the Honda one is are the exceptions.

I've been hoping the Element would come out as a hybrid soon, with emphasis on gas mileage.

I think the RAV4 and CRV are also good choices...they end up with about 25 mpg highway I think, and probably handle better than the Element...

JohnS is right too...not about "yuppiness" (whatever that is) but Mazda has been making some nice cars for a few years now. They fly under the radar so the aren't commanding premium prices.

[Serotta PETE]

Seems like you have had good luck with Honda, so no need to change. The element does well in safety, uses regular gas, has room, and is a HONDA!!

It is not a "SUV" just a "SAV".


Good luck shopping - - -while few deals are about on new CIVIC, you should be able to do well on Element.

PETE

[Chad Engle]

are an awesome idea. I just don't think they have perfected them. I agree 100% if you are buying it to be green, because cost wise, it is pretty clear they don't save much, if any.

Not trying to stir the pot, but a serious question, how environmentally friendly is a GIANT battery when the car no longer runs? :confused:

[Tom]

See the comment about dying in a fiery auto crash unless I change my habits.

That sort of rules out the GTI and the turbo versions of the Subaru and Saab, though it is very useful for evasive maneuvering to have acceleration as one option to go along with braking and turning.

I had a terrible experience with the one Mazda I used, so Mazda has an uphill fight. The Mazda3 looks like a lot of car for the money, though.

[David Kirk]

You need a practile vehicle like this...........

Shy of that I like the Element.

Dave

[christian]

I think the Impreza wagon/Outback Sport wagon are really nice, though I prefer the Impreza since it doesn't have all that body claddnig. The Subaru Forester is also a nice car and quite practical for hauling all manner of sporting gear. The Saabaru (9-2x) is nice, too!

I'd consider an Element, despite the SUV stigma, but I'd stay far away from the FJ Cruiser. I have a dear friend who works at Car & Driver and he can't seem to stop declaiming what an awful truck it is. And he's not comparing it to Bentleys - he drives a Subaru wagon. He says that if you're going to get a real gas-guzzling damn-the-global-warming-and-terrorism SUV, you should get a Nissan Xterra, which beats the FJ on all counts.

However, if you can overcome the idea of it, I think the new MAZDA5 micro-van (tall little station wagon?) is fantastic. Spacious, good gas mileage, and frankly quite handsome. If I were in the market for a car, it's definitely one I would give a long hard look to. It's like a Renault 4L for the 21st century.

- Christian

[saab2000]

I like David Kirk's idea the best.

[William]

Face it, all cars are black holes that you throw money into. If you can get one that will use less gasoline/oil, and cleaner for the environment, you're making a move in the right direction. They aren't perfect, but it's probably the future. Can't batteries be recycled?

William

Oil is heavily subsidized in this country. without the subsidies you might be looking at $9.00 - $11.00 dollars a gallon. Face it, prices are going up, and supplies are gradually declining. Why do you think the automakers are now starting to advertise the biofuel vehicles? Heck, most of the time you can't even get them to upgrade proven safety features with out possibly forcing legislation....unless they can use as a marketing improvement.

[Birddog]

Jeez, it's pretty much a no-brainer. The Subies are great, the element is pretty spartan, but also good. I'd probably go for the CRV rather than the Element. The WRX is a rocket, esp when you get the performance chip and let it breathe, my bro has one, and he loves it. I bought a Pilot last time around, next time it will likely be a Subie. I have no guilt about owning a SUV or even a pretender SUV like the Pilot. If you have the need, then buy the appropriate vehicle.

Birddog

[Tom]

The drawback to the Element is the gas mileage, but I could just park the thing at work all week and use it as a bike garage/clothes closet. Too bad there isn't a shower attachment option, the dummies at work closed the health club because 'it might lose money some day'.

[JohnS]

Geez, it's amazing that 20 years ago we all drove RWD cars and now everyone "needs" AWD. Marketing rules... :crap:

[Birddog]

Oil is heavily subsidized in this country. without the subsidies you might be looking at $9.00 - $11.00 dollars a gallon.

William, could you enlighten me with some facts about this? If I'm not mistaken, the US Gov't makes far more per gallon of gasoline (in taxes) than the oil co's, I could be wrong though.

Birddog

[flydhest]

My oldest brother has a Toyota Matrix. I think (but could be wrong) that they are coming out with a hybrid version, but it gets good mileage for him, so it probably doesn't matter that much. They have more room inside than a car it's size has any right to. Reminds me of the Tardis from Dr. Who. Nice driving, but not fast enough to get you into trouble. Hatchback that seems like a station wagon, fold down rear seats for lots of room.

Small and big at the same time with good mileage.

One of the forum members from Detroit should get auto execs to read this (and previous) thread. Something tells me that the middle-aged man with wealth and toys is a demographic on which you could make money on.

[Argos]

The CR-V and the RAV-4 may have better handling then the Element, though if they do, I doubt it's anything more then a minimal difference. Look at what we are comparing, after all.

The Element does have SIGNIFICANTLY more interior room and versatility. We looked at the other while looking at the Element, even though we were not too intrigued by the others.

[davep]

Although the Element is classified as and SUV, I would hardly put it in the same class as the SUVs everyone loves to hate - Hummers, Escalades, those beats from Lincoln, etc. Its a relatively small, boxy car with lost of interior room and some great features for people who use the card hard, rubber and plastic everywhere, fold up seats, etc. I do not own one but just looked at one last weekend and would have bought one if my wife didn't hate the looks.

As to hybrids, the latest Consumer Reports has an article about them, and concludes that all current hybrids will cost $1,000 to $5,000 over 75,000 miles more than the same car with a gas engine. They even lost money over 150,000 miiles. I'm not saying that you shouldn't buy one for environmental reasons, just not financial ones.

William,

I would also like to see more information about gas being so subsidized. from 1977 to 2004 oil company profits totaled $643 billion, while federal and state taxes on gasoline totaled $1,343 billion. <http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/1139.html>. Even in Europe, with MUCH higher taxes than the US, gas is $4 - $5 per gallon.

[William]

William, could you enlighten me with some facts about this? If I'm not mistaken, the US Gov't makes far more per gallon of gasoline (in taxes) than the oil co's, I could be wrong though.

Birddog

I should check before I spout off or try to paraphrase. The $9 - $11 I was referring to was the the International Center for Technology Assessment's calculations adding in factors on top of pumping, refining, and delivering oil/gas. The costs of "tax subsidies to the oil industry, such as the oil depletion allowance; the subsidies for the extraction, production, and use of petroleum; the burgeoning military costs of protecting access to oil supplies; the health care costs for treating respiratory illnesses ranging from asthma to emphysema; and, most important, the costs of climate change."

The point was trying to reflect the "real" cost of oil tying in factors generally overlooked. Likely similar to adding in the costs of second smoke to the overall costs of the effects of smoking.



Anyway, I would still consider a hybrid now over other vehicles.

[JohnS]

One of the forum members from Detroit should get auto execs to read this (and previous) thread. Something tells me that the middle-aged man with wealth and toys is a demographic on which you could make money on.
They already do. It's called "big truck, little ****" marketing!

[BumbleBeeDave]

I would check on the Outback (If you're talking about the wagon) and Saab prices if I were you. I don't think you are going to get either one for the $25k price you want. You could probably get a good deal on a slightly used Outback wagon--a lease return. and I agree about the premium you pay for the Saab over the Subie, which is essentially the same car.

As for the Element, others have already told you about the mileage, but you can't deny the utility. Serotta Lorie raved about hers at Open House several years ago as she gave us a tour, showing us how seemingly everything inside either came out, folded out of the way, or morphed into a 12 volt latte machine or something.

Mazda has a slick loking Mazda 6 wagon, but I'm not sure about the prices or mileage. Joe Pelligrino of MHCC loves his Mazda 3 and it certainly has enough room if you fold down the rear seat. Lynne (the ex) has a forester and she loves it. It looks like a pretty slick, very space efficient car with the AWD for winters around here and you could probably get one for under the $25k you want to spend.

Don't discount the possibility of buying a used lease return or some other year old vehicle. There's some really good deals out there. The only 3 reasons I'm keeping the 10 year-old Passport I have are 1) It's paid for, 2) It's paid for, and 3) It's paid for. ;)

BBD

[mtflycaster]

I'm with BBD.

I have a two year old Outback XT. Awesome car. Get a clean used one or a lease return on this or ANYTHING you buy, IMHO.

[flydhest]

They already do. It's called "big truck, little ****" marketing!

Gives a new meaning to the phrase "executive compensation" I reckon.

There's a book out about the marketing of SUVs and the intent to go after people who want to be able to push around or threaten others. The "I'm bigger than you so I can do what I want" mentality was intentionally played up and the psychological studies done on the typical buyers seem to bear it out.

I'm a young(-ish) guy who drives a freakin' Volvo wagon. I'm confident in my masculinity . . . at least whenever my wife lets me have access to it.

[davids]

Lots of very good ideas here! Here's a few more:

Element: I have never really seen this as an SUV in the classic sense. It's a smartly-sized box, with reasonable room, functionality and economy. Personally, it doesn't appeal.

Impreza: A freind has the WRX, and it's a rocket! Great engine, great chassis. It's small, but you could probably lay a bike down (sans wheel) in the back. Don't get the Saab version! You'd be throwing your $$$ away.

Mazda 3: Looks like a very savvy blend of style and function, about the same size as the Impreza. I don't know about Mazda reliability, though.

Prius: This one has been a pleasant surprise to me. It's small outside, enormous inside, and will get excellent mileage (especially around town.) Several friends, and now my mom's boyfriend, own and love them. You can easily get a bike in the back with the rear seat down, and it's like a limo back there (in terms of space) with the rear seat up. And the Prius drives like a normal car. It's no sports car, granted, but that's not the point.

You are paying a premium for the hybrid technology, but higher gas prices could turn that into a surplus. And as Pat Bedard pointed out in Car & Driver, no one ever criticizes a guy for paying a premium for more horsepower/luxury/etc. Go ahead, spend a little extra to get that cutting-edge powerplant!

[spiderlake]

Saturn VUE? You can walk out the door with a fully-loaded AWD model for 25k. 20k if you went with front wheel drive and the 4 cylinder engine. 25-28MPG on the highway and the engine and transmission in the V6 model is actually Honda's.

Pontiac Vibe? 1.8 liter engine leaves a lot to be desired but 35MPG is nice. They are dirt cheap in terms of price and not bad quality.

I just went through an exercise to retire my Tahoe because of its gas guzzling ways. I needed a vehicle that gets good gas mileage and can haul 4 bikes plus our dog with relative ease. I came close to buying the VUE and also thought long and hard about the Vibe. I get GM Employee pricing through my Dad so I was trying to stick with a GM product.

As fate would have it, a friend of mine was selling his Aztek (don't laugh!!) for a song so I scrapped the idea of buying new and went for the ugliest car on the road. 25MPG, tons of cargo space and will be perfect for my commute to/from work as well as the weekend travels to Traverse City.

[abqhudson]

Hard to predict the future, but here goes -- $5-6-7 gas is just around the corner. Chinese and other emerging demand for oil will cause gas prices to skyrocket. In Bejing alone - 1000 more cars on the road each day.

Take your chances.

Jim

[mwos]

I tend to buy what Consumer Reports recommends so I bought an 05 CRV in Oct.

I'm very happy with it, good power for the mtn passes, handles well in snow and ice. The best part is that, with the seats down, 2 bicycles will fit inside without removing the front wheel, just turn the front wheels sideways.

It's very comfortable, travels well, few blind spots.

The smaller SUV's are considered crossovers, part car, part truck.

The CRV is built on the Civic chassis and drives very much like our Civic.

Honda tends to have standard safety features, like side curtain airbags, that others charge extra for.

Kathi

[Phil_Lacio]

space for your bike...

[JohnS]

I tend to buy what Consumer Reports recommends
KathiI quit listening to CR about 15 yrs ago when they raved about the reliability of the Mazda MX6 while dissing the Ford Probe. The only problem is that they were twins, built on the same chassis on the same assembly line by the same workers.

[mwos]

I use them because they tell me about features that are important or non-important, especially on appliances. I'm looking at dishwashers and features like sani rinse or dirt sensors aren't necessary or may not work as well, so high end models may not be worth the money.

Sometimes, its not just reliablility but something that one model offers for the price that the other doesn't. Kenmore dishwashers are made by Whirlpool but rated higher by CR than Whirlpool.

When I bought the CRV, I checked other sources, researched other models, online sources etc and keep coming back to the CRV. I wanted certain safety features and CR's car buyer guide makes it easy to compare features on various models. I found that the CRV had the safety features I wanted without paying extra for them.

I also wanted a vehicle that I can see out of and often CR would point out which models had blind spots.

CRV's are pretty popular around here and it was hard to get a good deal at the end of the model year, unlike the GM's and Fords.

Kathi

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that if you read a review of the same car in both Car&Driver and Consumer Reports, you usually get both sides of the story as far as fairness. C&D points out the cool stuff about the car and then CR points out the realities of living with it day to day. And while CR may indeed have their biases, their policy of never accepting ads or free merchandise for testing goes a long way toward stoking my respect for them. Mags like Consumer Digest that do not have these principles are pretty worthless as true "consumer" publications, IMHO.

BBD

[mwos]

Edmunds.com has a "Cost to Own" comparisions so you can compare the average costs of vehicles based on your zip code over a 5 year period.

I just checked the site. The CRV is rated as the lowest cost to own for suv's under $25,000!

I also used the CR car buying guide. It was full of useful information, especially knowing exactly how much the dealer paid and their "hidden fees".

Kathi

[Tom]

I am going to have to plug everything in and see how it works. Very cool.

Did I mention I was cheap? A car is an expense...

So why am I looking at the Saab? I'm not. My evil twin Skippy is.

[shinomaster]

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/

[malcolm]

Toyota prius. I have one and it gets about 43-45 mpg on the highway at 80mph. With the seat in the back down I can easily fit a bike with both wheels on. I have a hitch with a saris ride on that carries two bikes with ease, with the wheels on. The car will happily accomodate 4 full sized adults is very simple but high tech, the hybrid part of it (batteries, etc) has a 10yr/100k warranty. I think they start at about 22k, mine was 27 fully loaded with navigation, bluetooth, leather, etc.. They have some of the highest customer approval ratings in the history of the industry.

[Louis]

Honda, for reasons unknown, stopped making the Si hatchback again. Dummies.

Acura still makes a hatchback (I don't remember the model name / number since it was updated a while back)

I have a '97 Integra and the bike (front wheel removed) fits very easily in the back. Reliabiity has been top notch, and I get 35 mpg overall (lots of hwy driving)

Louis

[72gmc]

Had one 2 years now. It's actually the mommy-mobile, but I drive it on long road trips because she doesn't like driving that far (and the 72 gmc doesn't either).

The great qualities:
1. Functionality. Tough and usable in a ton of ways for kids, dogs, daddy's toys, mommy's stuff. I roll my 58cm bike with 45cm bars in, turn the wheel slightly, and close up the back. Put a rack on and do pretty much anything you want...
2. Quality. It's a Honda. The warranty's not exceptional but not bad, the dealer service (at least here in Seattle) is as good and prompt as it was when Mom bought her first Civic 20 years ago.
3. Comfort. It only holds 4, but it's very comfortable for those 4. Not cush like my Audi 5000 CS was, but not meant to be. Lots of cupholders, lots of hanging/tiedown points, even a little armrest for the driver's right arm.
4. Mileage. On several trips of 300+ miles it's right around 25 (stick shift).

The may-be-annoying-depending-on-the-owner qualities:
1. Capacity. Only seats 4. One reason why we're starting to look at the Pilot is so we can offer someone a ride once in a while.
2. The trademark integrated doors. Fairly easy to deal with once you figure them out, but in some situations (narrow parking spaces especially) a little more trouble than plain old independent doors.
3. Sightlines. As with pretty much any SUV, your blind spots are much larger than with a car--more so given the styling of the Element. It's very much a check the mirror/turn your head and make sure routine to change lanes.

Sorry for the long post, but I think it's definitely worth considering. My wife loves it. I might have opted for a Passat wagon for driveability, but I don't regret the purchase. A lease program Element could be a great buy.

[LegendRider]

[QUOTE=BumbleBeeDave And while CR may indeed have their biases, their policy of never accepting ads or free merchandise for testing goes a long way toward stoking my respect for them. Mags like Consumer Digest that do not have these principles are pretty worthless as true "consumer" publications, IMHO.

BBD[/QUOTE]

Can you say Pez Cycling News? ;)

[IXXI]

Don't forget to throw a Toyota FJ Cruiser into the mix.

I'd go that route too-- I have an older '94 Lancrusher that I looooove everything about except for the fact that it gets gallons per mile. It is truly embarrasing. The new FJs are mighty fine-- I've seen several around Portland up close (they bring them in from offshore not far from my office.)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . There's a two door coupe and a four door sedan. Guy on my staff has the sporty little coupe and he loves it. But you're not going to get a bike in there unless you fold down the rear seat and--probably--take the front wheel off.

Have you just considered something like an Accord? Oustanding quality and reliabilitiy . . . I think they have the fold-down split rear seat and could certainly swallow at least one bike. There's a ton of them around and while they're not too "Evil Twin" distinctive, you could probably find a heck of a deal on a lease return.

BBD

[MarcusPless]

I ran across this article (http://www.omninerd.com/2005/11/11/articles/41) on the economics of hybrids a few months ago. Basically it's one approach someone took to actually do the math.

"Until something big changes, though, the industry-high efficiency can't economically offset the steep sticker price."

The people that I know that drive hybrids all like them, but they bought them more for environmental reasons, and less for economic reasons. And for the most part they bike to work.

--Marcus

[Ken Robb]

since "cheap" keeps coming up here I'll toss out this seemingly heretical idea:
get a used Buick LeSabre or any of its GM twins. I rented one last summer in Colorado Springs. It was comfy, quiet, good A/C., huge trunk that swallowed my bike with the front wheel off. There was room for at least one more bike plus I could have fit one in the back seat.

One of my favorite writers is Peter Egan who writes for Road and Track and Cycle World magazine. For years he's been extolling these virtues in his winte beater huge Oldsmobile and claiming up to 30mpg on road trips with his 3.8L V-6/auto trans.

Including my effort at fast-time-of-the
-day up Pikes Peak and lots of city driving my REnt-a-racer got 26mpg on the cheapest regular gas I could find.

The car rental companies sell one year old models of these things for around $12,000 with warranty.

OK, the handling isn't quite like our BMWs but the ride on crappy roads like I'm on way too often is excellent. Not high on the Cool Factor but real transportation bargains.

[BumbleBeeDave]

This is exactly what my parents did about four years ago. They got a Buick Regal(?) and got an absolutely screamin' deal on this mid-size car with huge trunk and a V-6 from the local dealer who had scads of lease returns to get rid of. They're both elderly (Dad's gone into a nursing home since then) and don't drive a lot. As you say, it's not high on "Wow!" factor, but the economics of the deal could just not be beat.

BBD

[Fuzzybird]

Tom,

Just to give you info about actual mileage I get with my 05 Outback XT, 25 mpg highway and around 22.5 city. I'm really happy with the very tight range between city and highway, the only thing that stinks is that the XT takes premium fuel. Other than that, the car has been great and easily accommodates my pets, suitcases, bikes, etc...

I was thinking about a Prius due to the high cost of fuel and even drove one the other day, I was impressed, good space and drives like a regular car. But the article Marcus posted a link to was really informative. I think I'll hang on to my subie till it's paid off next year and maybe look at a Honda Civic for everyday driving.

Greg

[pjm]

Hey, isn't that Tom in his new Oldsmo-Buick? Hey Tom, turn off that direction signal! :p ;)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . to turn off his brights, too! :rolleyes: ;)

BBD

[Dr. Doofus]

yo tom


get doof's 1988 chevy s-10

immaculate

140k

even trade for 1 new serotta CIII frame/fork: 56x56 w 16cm HT, 73sta, 73.5hta...


what a steal!

[William]

Last time around I seriously considered the Element but ended up with a Volvo instead. I'm secure. ;)

Element :banana: They got a hybrid yet????


William

[texbike]

Okay, long time lurker here with only an occasional bit of information to add to various discussions.

However, this is one to chime in on.

My suggestion is a Scion Xb. Yes, the ugly, boxy one (SUV-small, ugly vehicle).

I cannot recommend these cars enough. There is a surprising amount of room, 4 doors, a hatchback, and they are a blast to drive w/a 5 speed.

After driving a large japanese sports/luxury sedan for several years (Q45), I began to miss the fun and austere simplicity of the classic, compact sports sedans of my youth (BMW 1600s, 2002s, Alfa sedans, Datsun 510s, early GTIs, Civic Sis, etc.).

In December I traded the Q45 in on a brand new, Camo Green, 5 speed Scion Xb. I couldn't be happier! It is incredibly similar to the old Civic SIs, is an absolute blast to drive, gets 28-33 miles per gallon, and was $15K out the door (not including the trade-in).

The car is simplistic in its design, the seats are supportive, it goes around corners in a manner that would surprise you based on its looks, and it should be dead reliable since it is a Toyota product.

In my opinion, the Xb is truer in form to the original GTIs, Civic SIs, and Mini Coopers than all of their current iterations. I continually look forward to driving it and catch myself looking back at it admiringly when parking it to go into a store or for a ride.

Okay, so it is pretty ugly, but it's one of those "it's so ugly that it's cute" kind of uglies. Did I mention that it was only $15K out the door??? That leaves a lot of scratch for a new bike. :)

Give one a test drive. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Cheers,

Texbike

[PanTerra]

Okay, long time lurker here with only an occasional bit of information to add to various discussions.

However, this is one to chime in on.

My suggestion is a Scion Xb. Yes, the ugly, boxy one (SUV-small, ugly vehicle).

I cannot recommend these cars enough.
Texbike

And it is soooo aerodynamic. :banana:

[csm]

I have an element. traded a grand cherokee for it. the jeep had a v8 and would hammer those pinheads in their hopped-up tuner imports. especially in the rain.
the element is the best car I've ever had. I have the awd 5spd. it's not the greatest at any one thing but does everything well. goes great in the snow, mud, etc. rides a little rough on long trips but the mpg is worth it. last summer, with 2 bikes on the roof and 2 adults, 2 kids, various bags and a lab I got over 24 mpg heading to the shore; mostly turnpike mileage but still decent. the pop out sunroof is pretty neat. it is perfect for carting surfboards around. the interior is basically moppable; don't hose it out though. that's a bad rumor.
it's also a great camping car. and it has more interior room than the jeep.
checkout http://elementownersclub.com/
drive one, you'l love it.
and it's based on the crv. basically the box a crv comes in.

[bcm119]

Mazda 3. Its a steal. Built on the c1 platform that the Volvo s40 and European Focus uses. The base 2.0 4-banger has VVT for 2006. I'm looking at one as my first brand new car.

[shoe]

i have an element as well. came from a ford escape(they have a hybrid)...but don't even get me started on ford....i am pleased with the car(element). seats and ride lack a little in comfort. not great on gas due to boxiness but better than many. great for haulin bikes and road trips and making an overall mess inside. because of it's height the bikes just roll right in which is very nice if you are lazy like i am. since i started a new job close to home though my favorite thing about it is rolling past it on my new kirk and leaving it in the driveway. one of the things too which i thought was nice is that you can slide sheets of plywood in it..although i have never tried. anyway i would recomend the car...since i plan on keeping mine for 8-10 years...good luck with the purchase...dave....

[eddief]

I did not read through all the posts, but was wondering if anyone mentioned the new to come Honda Fit?

http://automobiles.honda.com/fit/inside.aspx

[Tom]

I know it would be responsible and all, but the same car as I have with 90 fewer horses doesn't appeal to me.

[Vancouverdave]

Look at an Outback. Yes, there's a million of 'em on the road but for good reason; theydrive likea car and not a tank, are comfortable and dependable and don't suck down gas at the rate that'll make you an honorary Al Qaeda member. I drove a Mazda 3 for several weeks a few years ago (rental, car was crunched) and was very happy with how it drove and how much capacity the "station wagon" version has. Don't know how they are for the long haul. One of the funniest things that the view from a bike seat has ever let me see was a Honda Element with two Saint Bernards in the back--talk about using every square inch of space!

[Argos]

Just as an update....

Drove from NC to NY last night. About 500 miles with a weeks worth of Baby stuff, Myself, wife, aforementioned Baby, luggage, Bike on the hitch rack, etc...

Kept it on Cruise control nearly the ehole way at about 74 down south of DC and 70 north of DC.

Got 26.5 mpg

Not bad for a brick

[Serotta PETE]

Spokes is selling his HUMMER H1 and the last time we used it the GPM was pretty good. 3 gallons to the mile.


Space is very limited because of the large gas tank it has

[72gmc]

The Mazdas I have driven (3 series and 6 series rental cars) drive very nicely and seem like fine cars. Same with a Legacy Outback I rented in San Francisco. But when it came time to purchase our Element I had already vetoed the Outback because its back seat is painfully short on legroom... and I'm not overly tall at 6'1".

[Lincoln]

Just as an update....

Drove from NC to NY last night. About 500 miles with a weeks worth of Baby stuff, Myself, wife, aforementioned Baby, luggage, Bike on the hitch rack, etc...

Kept it on Cruise control nearly the ehole way at about 74 down south of DC and 70 north of DC.

Got 26.5 mpg

Not bad for a brick

That's not too bad, cars are still better for road trips IMHO, I just got back from a quick trip to St. George (Southern UT-mid 70's and sunny). 310 miles in 3:40, avg 26 mpg. Doing 90-105 mph on most of the interstate sections.

Dave, the Birkin looks awesome! Which engine did you get? That top actually looks somewhat weatherproof!

[twin]

:) I can carry bikes and dogs and stuff from home depot because it holds so much. I like the looks just fine and I know it will last as long as I wish to keep it. I had a newer VW bug and I loved that car however it was getting ready to have some big mechanical problems. The VW could hold a bike in the back of the inside of the car. I was always amazed at what it could carry for its size. I decided to get the Element because I trust Hondas and need a car that will last a lonnnngggggg time.

[Lincoln]

Of those that have been discussed I like the Mazda3, and the Subaru Impreza wagon or Forester. Another idea would be the Mazda5: reasonable price and mpg, better cargo flex. than any of the others and you could get one with everything (including NAV) for under 25k.

Of the small SUVs (that I only know much about because we are getting one for my wife this Spring) I think the new RAV4 is best of the current batch. I don't know about the Element but the CRV is a great car but is very close to the end of its model cycle.

[Brons2]

Gives a new meaning to the phrase "executive compensation" I reckon.

There's a book out about the marketing of SUVs and the intent to go after people who want to be able to push around or threaten others. The "I'm bigger than you so I can do what I want" mentality was intentionally played up and the psychological studies done on the typical buyers seem to bear it out.

I'm a young(-ish) guy who drives a freakin' Volvo wagon. I'm confident in my masculinity . . . at least whenever my wife lets me have access to it.

you guys need to get over yourselves. I would love to drive a smaller car, but I am 6'7" and my head touches the roof on many of them.

I drive a base model Nissan Titan crew cab. Cost me ~22K. I can get my 68cm Rivendell in the back seat area by folding up the seats. No wheel removal required.

OBTW...20mpg highway @75mph. 5 speed auto.
mileage around town sucks, but that's why I ride to work when I can.

[H1449-6]

Don't forget to throw a Toyota FJ Cruiser into the mix.

That truck gets a lot of style points from me. Really cool.

[Brons2]

As fate would have it, a friend of mine was selling his Aztek (don't laugh!!) for a song so I scrapped the idea of buying new and went for the ugliest car on the road. 25MPG, tons of cargo space and will be perfect for my commute to/from work as well as the weekend travels to Traverse City.

Watch the coolant level on that one. The GM 3.1 and 3.4 V6's are notorious for leaking from the intake gaskets into the engine. If you let this go, it will destroy your bearings.

The engines are reliable, so long as you stay on top of this issue.

I would recommend doing oil analysis, if you change your own oil. You can get an analysis kit from you local CAT dealer for $11. Remove the plug, let the oil flow for about 3-5 seconds, then dip the sampling jar in the stream. They will run spectroanalysis for wear metals, additives, anti-freeze, fuel dilution, viscosity, basically everything you want to know about how well your oil is doing in your engine.

The other great side benefit of this is that it will allow you to set your oil change intervals to what your engine and driving habits dictate, not some wasteful 3,000 mile recommendation.

[BarryG]

A little late, but a few comments:

WRX
I've got 4 years on my WRX wagon. My road bike fits in the back with BOTH wheels in place. I run mine on REGULAR gas and it runs fine despite what everyone tells you. Gas mileage ain't great - low 20's. Incredibly reliable, a chassis (handling) second to none, significant turbo lag, cheap servicing.

If I had to buy a car today, I'd probably go with either the Mazda 3 wagon, Honda Element, or Toyota Prius. The $3k+ tax credit in effect now on the Prius eliminates the hybrid cost premium. I will never buy another Saab, mostly due to horrific cost of servicing.

[Brons2]

Look at an Outback. Yes, there's a million of 'em on the road but for good reason; theydrive likea car and not a tank, are comfortable and dependable and don't suck down gas at the rate that'll make you an honorary Al Qaeda member. I drove a Mazda 3 for several weeks a few years ago (rental, car was crunched) and was very happy with how it drove and how much capacity the "station wagon" version has. Don't know how they are for the long haul. One of the funniest things that the view from a bike seat has ever let me see was a Honda Element with two Saint Bernards in the back--talk about using every square inch of space!

Your view is very NW centric.

I grew up in Oregon and indeed the Subarus are everywhere up in the Northwest.

However, down here in Texas (and in the South in general) they are a pretty rare sight.

[Brons2]

A little late, but a few comments:

WRX
I've got 4 years on my WRX wagon. My road bike fits in the back with BOTH wheels in place. I run mine on REGULAR gas and it runs fine despite what everyone tells you. Gas mileage ain't great - low 20's. Incredibly reliable, a chassis (handling) second to none, significant turbo lag, cheap servicing.



The computer will adjust for regular gas by retarding the spark timing, but you will lose some degree of performance.

Also, the long term danger is that detonation will occur under boost before the computer has a chance to adjust, causing stress to engine internals such as pistons, rods and crank, not to metion the bearings.

[BarryG]

So if you're not easy on the accelerator, use high test in your WRX. I guess that's probably true of the typical WRX owner. Guess I'm mellowing with age.