Fixing a carbon frame... possible? Bad idea?

[Tom]

So I hear my nephew crashed his baby, a carbon Trek. His mom said she didn't know until she saw the healing wound... anyway, before the spring racing season she thought she'd do him a favor and take the bike in to be overhauled. The word comes back that it is trashed. My nephew saved his pennies to buy the thing, he's very bummed. My brother has sent it to some place in California that says they can fix it... I have no other details on what's broken, who these people are.

Anybody every hear of this sort of thing?

[Kevan]

http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm

All due respect to Steve below, but I would think it's worth having an expert give the frame a looksee before placing it at the curb. Whether it's worth the cost of repair you will have to determine. If there's a silver lining here, at least you still have the bike's bits and pieces you can move onto another frame.

[stevep]

write it off... you can see the one giant crack...maybe not the 20 tiny cracks.

[Fixed]

write it off... you can see the one giant crack...maybe not the 20 tiny cracks.
bro trek won't even repair they just ship out a new one that is the risk with carbon I agree with s.p. write it off bro i.m.h.o. cheers

[Argos]

If I was gonna trust someone, I guess Calfee would be them, but like the others said, who knows what else there is aside from the visable crack? It's only as strong as it's weakest link.

Trek's Crash replacement deal would be the way I'd go, cause like Fixed said, they replace it.

It'll cost $, but less then a frame coming apart underneath you.

[Lincoln]

I don't know what the cost is now, but when I was racing on Treks in the late 90s their crash replacement policy was a pretty reasonable deal.

[sspielman]

I am sure that part of what is included in the price of a new Trek carbon froame is some allowance toward replacement in the event of crash damage or just product failure. I would go that route for certain. I would also appeal to the sales rep......If he knows that the frame belongs to a kid who saved is own money, etc.........I know that I would do whatever I could to make a replacement happen for him.....

[Tom]

I am pretty sure my nephew bought it used so I am not sure Trek's crash replacement deal applies. I am positive the frame was fine before the kid had his mishap, he's a maniac and he rode it for at least a year. Why my brother is having it fixed is beyond me, I have to talk to him about it. It's the way my brother approaches everything, he never throws anything away that can possibly be repaired. That's laudable but in some cases it's not the best. I just hope whoever looks at the bike makes damn sure there's no hidden damage.

I just don't want it to disintegrate in the middle of some race field. That would not be good.

I am going to find out what size he rides and keep my eyes open for a replacement frame. Maybe I can discourage him from riding that thing any more.

[Lincoln]

I am pretty sure my nephew bought it used so I am not sure Trek's crash replacement deal applies.

I would still look into the replacement, iirc for the crash program they didn't care if it was the original owner--not sure about current policy. Also having a good Trek dealer helping go to bat for you with the rep can help matters.

[Fixed]

trek 's bro ride pretty good i.m.h.o.

[TimD]

bro trek won't even repair they just ship out a new one that is the risk with carbon I agree with s.p. write it off bro i.m.h.o. cheers

That's probably got as much to do with liability concerns as it does reliability concerns. "First thing we'll do is..."

TimD

[Louis]

Bad, bad idea. If he can get any sort of credit for the frame in a replacement deal that is the best way to go.

Unless we’re talking about something like a clear coat scratch or a bottle cage insert pulled out (even that can be tricky) any significant damage to a composite structure in a load-bearing area is very difficult to repair, and nearly impossible to repair cost-effectively at this scale. (I’m not a composites expert, but we do use them all over in our aircraft, so I’m pretty familiar with them.)

My advice: It’s a great excuse to move up from Trek to something with a little more personality.

Louis

[vaxn8r]

There is a lot of misinformation about CF being floated on this thread. CF frames can often be repaired and often for far less than a new one. Call Craig Calfee, who repairs all makes. If Craig says it can be repaired I would trust him.

[EPOJoe]

What Vax said. Don’t be so quick to write off Calfee and their ability to assess and repair carbon frames. I spent an afternoon down there around a year ago, and discussed this very topic with them in depth. They’ve seen so many crashed and otherwise damaged frames over the years, that they know just what to look for when examining a frame for reparability and possible future problems. They showed me a few frames that were in for repair that had been literally ripped in half, and they were very confident that they would have no problems with assessing and repairing even this type of damage. Let me put it this way; if Calfee were unable to safely and surely repair these frames, they’d be opening themselves up to massive liability suits. Apparently, they’ve had no problems with the mysterious, invisible, hidden damage that so many fear lurks in carbon fiber frames.

[Louis]

Guys, we're not talking about a Calfee or a Madone here. (At least I don't think so.) Let's keep things in perspective. I'm not saying that composites can't be successfully repaired, just that it ain't easy.

[nicrump]

So I hear my nephew crashed his baby, a carbon Trek. His mom said she didn't know until she saw the healing wound... anyway, before the spring racing season she thought she'd do him a favor and take the bike in to be overhauled. The word comes back that it is trashed. My nephew saved his pennies to buy the thing, he's very bummed. My brother has sent it to some place in California that says they can fix it... I have no other details on what's broken, who these people are.

Anybody every hear of this sort of thing?

I have fixed many carbon frames and I have sent quite a few to their graves. All depends. I have gotten pretty good at the forensics of it all. It usually includes a pretty good study of the crash if known. If I ever have doubts, I toss em.


http://crumptoncycles.com

[csm]

they repair indy and f1 tubs when one of those hits a wall. surely a bicycle can't be that much harder.

[Sandy]

Is it really worth the risk of fixing it? I seriously doubt it. I would hope that Trek (and/or the dealer) could help you in some way. If not, throw it away. It's carbon, not steel.


STeel ST Serotta Sandy

[vaxn8r]

Is it really worth the risk of fixing it? I seriously doubt it. I would hope that Trek (and/or the dealer) could help you in some way. If not, throw it away. It's carbon, not steel.


STeel ST Serotta Sandy
Sandy and Louis, I submit that we deal with facts not fear. A very well respected builder just contributed to the thread. At the very least, do some research before offering advice.

[autoloclys]

Ive done a lot of production work on carbon frames at a company youve heard of, and also a lot of repair work on them. Carbon as a material is repairable, in some ways more repairable than Steel or Ti. I have done several full tube replacements that have gone back to owners and been riden and raced and which looked an performed as new afterwards. BUT. there are not that many people who i would trust to do this kind of work. those that are mentioned, Calfee or Crumpton are among them. But outside of that kind of pedigree there are a lot of people who think they know carbon and that they can repair it "good as new" but not be able to properly evaluate the extent of the damage, or what the orginal construction was, or how to apply the material properly.

think of cars. lots of people can fix cars well, not a lot of people can fix a motor in an RX7 (rotary) or do body work on a corvette (fiberglass) working with carbon is a specialty and working with carbon bikes more so. the right person can do it well and also can tell when a frame is not repairable, just make sure you find the right person if you are going that route over replacement.

knowing a bit about how the OCLVs are assembled i would guess an effective (ie structural) repair will be tough to pull off. And a repair that doesnt look like a repair even tougher. investment wise repalacement is probably a better choice, if you are every looking to sell and upgrade, a new crash replacement oclv will move easier than a crashed and repaired by a third party oclv.

[CarbonCycles]

This is a very interesting thread especially the feedback coming from Nick (which I sincerely appreciate). What would one think of Serotta's MeiVici then? This is a material that is "relatively" new to them; so would you trust a repaired bike by them?

[Louis]

Sandy and Louis, I submit that we deal with facts not fear. A very well respected builder just contributed to the thread. At the very least, do some research before offering advice.

Vax,

I work in an industry that has lead the way on composites and we've been developing, designing, building, testing and breaking stuff out of composites back before many of these guys were even born, and back when bicycles were still made the way they were made in our grandpa's day. I don't think that I deal with fear, and probably with more facts on composites than the typical composite cycle manufacturer will deal with in the entire life of their company. You're lecturing to the wrong guy when it comes to research on stuff like this.

Louis

[Sandy]

Sandy and Louis, I submit that we deal with facts not fear. A very well respected builder just contributed to the thread. At the very least, do some research before offering advice.

The original post, if I recall properly, stated that the frame (or bike) was trashed.

I have seen a carbon handlebar break in a "catastrophic" way with an almost benign accident. I was amazed by the easy manner in which the handlebar literally split in half.

So how does Calfee or anyone else determine the integrity of the tubing after an accident that trashes the bike? How many of the tubes (and fork) would have to be replaced? How much actual repair is necessary to make the frame whole again? At what financial cost? At what emotional cost?

Do steel frames or steel forks fail as catastrophically as carbon? From what I have heard, they don't.

With all due respect to carbon builders, I personally wouldn't care what they said in this "trashed carbon bike" scenario. Can they assure me that the repair of the bike will make it whole again?

Assuming that the Trek frame is all carbon, how many of the tubes would have to replaced? How cost effective would that really be? Trek might help in giving an excellent price in replacing the frame and maybe even the LBS would help.

Look at the risk reward aspect- You are weighing the reward of spending some money towards fixing the frame instead of spending money to replace it, to the risk of human loss of a catastrophic carbon failure. My choice is very easy. I don't really care about the relative likelihood of the two events. I am not willing to take a chance.

If my Ottrott was "trashed" (I didn't buy the replacement option), I would simply throw the bike away. If that meant that I couldn't ever ride an Ottrott again, then so be it.

What type of resarch do I have to do, in order to give an opinion? Who is to determine what standard I must meet in doing so, and how well I met the standard?

Yep, I would have fear- Fear of having a horrendous accident. I would be so much less afraid if in fact I had confidence in the sructural integrity of the frame.

If we only give credence to the experts on the forum, and think that everyone else has nothing to say, then we might as well close the forum.

Personal experience often produces insight and trumps the experts at times.

The above is said repectfully to you.



Sandy

[vaxn8r]

Good insight Louis and I wasn't meaning to lecture you. I do think you're being a tad presumptuos but maybe because you don't know who you're talking about. Craig Calfee has been building these framesets for almost 20 years. His work has withstood the test of time, mileage and abuse. Sorry but I trust him over you, and that is not meant to disrespect what you do. Many of his original frames are still on the road. There's one in town that was built in the 80's and it's the guy's primary ride. If Craig says he can fix them I trust him. What's in it for him if he fails? Why put his name and hard earned reputation on the line?

http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm

Not trying to be a commercial for Calfee. Just trying to answer the original question in the thread. I would be curious what Serotta has to say about CF frame repair as well.

[Sandy]

Good insight Louis and I wasn't meaning to lecture you. I do think you're being a tad presumptuos but maybe because you don't know who you're talking about. Craig Calfee has been building these framesets for almost 20 years. His work has withstood the test of time, mileage and abuse. Sorry but I trust him over you, and that is not meant to disrespect what you do. Many of his original frames are still on the road. There's one in town that was built in the 80's and it's the guy's primary ride. If Craig says he can fix them I trust him. What's in it for him if he fails? Why put his name and hard earned reputation on the line?

http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm

Not trying to be a commercial for Calfee. Just trying to answer the original question in the thread. I would be curious what Serotta has to say about CF frame repair as well.

The durability of Calfee's frames is not in question in this thread, nor is Mr. Calfee's reputation. We are talking herein about a trashed frame.Undoubtedly, for numerous reasons, Mr. Calfee would not fix the frame if he did not belive in its structural integrity after it was done. But because of the liabilities in doing so, and the stellar manner in which he would do it, I would seriously doubt that he could fix this trashed frame at a price very far from a replacement frame. If he could do it, he would. But could he do it at a dollar cost that would be worth it? At a cost difference that would give the user confidence in the fixed frame (and/or fork)?


Sandy

[Saxon]

From the original posting:
The word comes back that it is trashed. My nephew saved his pennies to buy the thing, he's very bummed. My brother has sent it to some place in California that says they can fix it... I have no other details on what's broken, who these people are
Tom's not sure what the problem with the bike is. "Trashed" can mean anything from a small crack in the chain stay to shattered in a million bits. If it was sent to Calfee, I doubt the damage was that bad. Without more information, we can only guess as to the feasibility of repair. If it was sent to Calfee, then it's in VERY capable hands.

[Sandy]

My new MeiVici and I went on a test ride and we crashed.
A simple look at the tubes and I knew that it was trashed.

Serotta coudn't fix it, so I took my last cd from where it was stashed.
Brought it, without my wife's knowlege, to the bank, and had it cashed.

Somehow my wife found out about it, and soon I was totally gashed,
Now the only solid food that I eat is potatoes that are warm and mashed.

I started drinking until I was totally smashed,
And now I know what it is to really be trashed. :)


The Trash Man

[vaxn8r]

The durability of Calfee's frames is not in question in this thread, nor is Mr. Calfee's reputation. We are talking herein about a trashed frame.Undoubtedly, for numerous reasons, Mr. Calfee would not fix the frame if he did not belive in its structural integrity after it was done. But because of the liabilities in doing so, and the stellar manner in which he would do it, I would seriously doubt that he could fix this trashed frame at a price very far from a replacement frame. If he could do it, he would. But could he do it at a dollar cost that would be worth it? At a cost difference that would give the user confidence in the fixed frame (and/or fork)?


Sandy
See, a little investigation and you would know he doesn't repair broken forks. What I am saying is you don't know until the damage is evaluated and examined. Cost should be a factor into whether one decides to repair or replace. He wouldn't be offering a service if it wasn't cost effective to repair over replacement and that you could trust the end product. I'm sure he doesn't repair every frame that come in. In fact, a friend of mine crashed his Tetra Pro and it was deemed it would be just as cost effective to get a new one. He did.

What I hear you saying is that CF can not be repaired. Or maybe that it can not be to your satisfaction. I'm still unclear on that issue. I still don't understand your position and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I thought the poem clever.

[Kevan]

Could we agree that we don't know the extent of the injuries this frame has; that we don't know who is performing the repair; that, but for a very select few folk, we haven't the foggiest idea what we're EVEN talking about here?

Seems reasonable to me that we wait for an outcome before tossing all CF frames into the ocean.

Just me stickin' my big toe where it don't belong.

[Louis]

Vax,

Nearly anything can be repaired if one is willing to spend the money to do so. No one's denying that. If you look back at my primary post I stated that it was unlikely that it would be cost effective to do so. Where's the fear mongering in that?

Let's hear your facts on this issue. OK, let's assume for the sake of this discussion that the bike can be repaired. How much will that cost? How much was the frame worth before the accident? How much would a replacement cost? I don't hear any facts from your end, other than the fact that composite frames can sometimes be repaired. That doesn't help answer the original question of whether or not it's a good idea to do so.

Louis

[Tom]

Still no details, I'll post back when I hear from my brother.

[vaxn8r]

Vax,

Nearly anything can be repaired if one is willing to spend the money to do so. No one's denying that. If you look back at my primary post I stated that it was unlikely that it would be cost effective to do so. Where's the fear mongering in that?

Let's hear your facts on this issue. OK, let's assume for the sake of this discussion that the bike can be repaired. How much will that cost? How much was the frame worth before the accident? How much would a replacement cost? I don't hear any facts from your end, other than the fact that composite frames can sometimes be repaired. That doesn't help answer the original question of whether or not it's a good idea to do so.

LouisHey Louis, I don't do it myself. I haven't seen the bike and I presume neither have you. Call Craig Calfee and get all the facts you care to about CF frame repair. You seem to have already decided it would never be worth it. That's OK. If it were me, and I wanted to keep the bike like Tom said, I'd make a simple phone call.

[sg8357]

[snip]

So how does Calfee or anyone else determine the integrity of the tubing after an accident that trashes the bike? How many of the tubes (and fork) would have to be replaced? Sandy

Here is one method of composite inspection

http://laserndt.com/prod_0251_aero.htm

In the future your LBS will have one, in Park blue of course.

Seriously, overview of CFRP inspection techniques.

http://www.ndt.net/article/wcndt00/papers/idn697/idn697.htm

Scott G.

[EPOJoe]

Craig Calfee asked me to post this for him:

"We do repair frames and have been doing so since 1989. In that time, I have not seen "hidden" crash damage popping up later on. We have recently started offering this service to non-Calfee owners and find that people are very pleased with the results. Occasionally, the crash damage is too extensive to repair and we refuse the job. We also stay away from repairing forks and handlebars. We do not repair frames with common design flaws such as aluminum/carbon bonding. The cost of repairing a frame is usually far less than the "crash replacement cost", which is often just dealer cost. I have seen hidden damage coming from poor craftsmanship in bladder molded frames and forks. This is where a crack appears on the surface immediately adjacent to a wrinkle, resin rich area, thin spot or other flaw in the laminate. These are often refused warranty service by the manufacturer and are referred to as a "JRA" (just riding along). We can repair those as well. To have a frame repaired, go to this page of our website: http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm

Craig Calfee"

[Sandy]

I think that all of the above posts (maybe not mine) make a lot of sense, even though some of us are on opposites side of the aisle. What "trashed" means is clearly not defined, and means different things to different people. Whether the company that has received the bike can adequately fix it is not known, nor is the cost effectiveness. We don't even know whether it can be fixed. Obviously one would have confidence in the work of some individuals but not in others.

I guess that I reacted too quickly to the bike is "trashed" when I really didn't know what "trashed" meant for somone else. Perhaps I would be much less likely to have the frame fixed because of the difference in cost of repair versus a new frame.

I respect and appreciate the opinions of others who disagree with what I said, for several reasons, in particular because they make perfect sense.

If I fell off a wall like Humpty Dumpty, would any of you try to fix me? :)


Humpty Dumpty

[Kevan]

I'll be your surgeon.

Nurse! The gas!

Noooo! Not for him....for ME!

BWAAAHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

[Sandy]

Will I be your nurse? :)


Sandy

[Kevan]

You're the one about to be fixed.


Let's just say chafing will no longer be a concern.

Nurse!!! Where the hell is she? There's the pretty....MORE GAS!!!!!

[Marcusaurelius]

So I hear my nephew crashed his baby, a carbon Trek. His mom said she didn't know until she saw the healing wound... anyway, before the spring racing season she thought she'd do him a favor and take the bike in to be overhauled. The word comes back that it is trashed. My nephew saved his pennies to buy the thing, he's very bummed. My brother has sent it to some place in California that says they can fix it... I have no other details on what's broken, who these people are.

Anybody every hear of this sort of thing?

Trek does have a crash replacement policy. If it's just something to do with having to replace the rear dropouts than it won't be that expensive. if however it's something major then they will just send a new frame.