New tubes from Ben Serotta

[PaMtbRider]

I was at the Bike Expo in Philly yesterday and sat in on a seminar by Ben Serotta. He showed a picture of a steel tube set he is having made by Columbus. His initial plan is to build some lugged frames himself. Since he no longer has a shop of his own, he is planning on building them in shops of custom builder friends around the world and video documenting the process. He then plans to market them through a higher production facility using Tig construction.

Should be interesting to see where this goes. I would expect he will be using the shops of some previous employees, but he did not mention that himself. I believe he said the time frame he is looking at is 1-2 years.

[weisan]

Resize

[SPOKE]

That tube set may be a revised version of the one he was offering for the 40th anniversary frames that were offered a year or so before things went upside down for the company.

[pbarry]

Ben's couch surfing?? :banana:

[MattTuck]

I love Ben and what he has done for framebuilding in the U.S., but perhaps he should focus on making a few great bikes for paying customers before he starts worrying about a scaling up at a higher production facility. That middle ground (not bespoke custom, not efficient high volume manufacturer) has the worst of both worlds from a business perspective. High overhead and costs, not enough volume to enjoy the economies and efficiency of scale.

Seven, Moots and IF seem to be doing ok, but I'm not really sure what their income statement looks like on a monthly basis.

[SPOKE]

I would love to see Ben start building again but I think low volume customs built with his hands would hit home with many folks.....including me. In the back ground he could do something like Richard Sachs and offer his tubes and lugs to the folks that build custom steel.

[soulspinner]

I would love to see Ben start building again but I think low volume customs built with his hands would hit home with many folks.....including me. In the back ground he could do something like Richard Sachs and offer his tubes and lugs to the folks that build custom steel.

This sounds good, I would love to see the guy succeed

[Cat3roadracer]

This sounds good, I would love to see the guy succeed

Succeed? He's already in the hall of fame. Up to him where he takes the next chapter of his life.

[jpw]

groovy. perhaps he can help me out with my cracked Serotta Legend that was not replaced under warranty when things went upside down.

[jpw]

That tube set may be a revised version of the one he was offering for the 40th anniversary frames that were offered a year or so before things went upside down for the company.

"upside down" - i like that.

[soulspinner]

Succeed? He's already in the hall of fame. Up to him where he takes the next chapter of his life.

OK, how about again???????????

[pdmtong]

This is great news for everyone wanting to take a delorean back to 1980

[TBDSeattle]

This is great news for everyone wanting to take a delorean back to 1980

??????
I don't understand this comment. Is the implication that his work has not evolved since 1980? Or is it that his work is not relevant today, i.e. there is no demand for custom steel bikes today, and there hasn't been demand since 1980?

[BumbleBeeDave]

groovy. perhaps he can help me out with my cracked Serotta Legend that was not replaced under warranty when things went upside down.

. . . to understand the people who always seem to come out of the woodwork to spin snarky comments whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. Ben did not work at the company nor own it when things went "upside down."

The guy ran a successful bike company that contributed much to the world of cycling for forty years.

Forty. Years.

Think about it.

BBD

[campy man]

This is great news for everyone wanting to take a delorean back to 1980

Different strokes for different folks. If a steel frame with lugs built by Serotta doesn't seem interesting then just appreciate his contribution to cycling ... no need for insults :no:

I think the Sachs model might be nearly impossible to duplicate but something that could generate some interest.

Steel is real, Ti is pretty damm good and carbon fiber is ... carbon fiber?

[PaMtbRider]

This is great news for everyone wanting to take a delorean back to 1980

What's your point? Really, I don't get what your trying to say.

[cash05458]

This is great news for everyone wanting to take a delorean back to 1980

lol...and I laugh at how well that old delorean drives each ride...

[Elefantino]

Two names guaranteed to cause thread apoplexy:

Lance.

Ben.

I get ragging on the one guy. Liar. Cheat. Destroyer of lives. Cannot be defended except by the most delusional of sycophants.

I don't get ragging on a guy who made great bikes.

[cmg]

wish him luck. makes me want to revisit all those what happen to Serotta threads when the company went under. he'll succeed if he doesn't over price the product.

[Tony]

Two names guaranteed to cause thread apoplexy:

Lance.

Ben.

I get ragging on the one guy. Liar. Cheat. Destroyer of lives. Cannot be defended except by the most delusional of sycophants.

I don't get ragging on a guy who made great bikes.

Same here.

[pdmtong]

I don't understand this comment.

Forty. Years. Think about it. BBD
there you go again. defender of Ben to your last breath

... no need for insults :no:
BTW no idea why your vamoots sits. that's a perfect frame with the fender mounts.

What's your point?

I had a kodak gallery sierra nevada full-gas race geometry ottrott. at the time considered a pinnacle design (the black fibre had not yet fully distracted the traditionalists) Really nice bike. smooth. sublime. all day 100/10,000' comfy but not really differentiated from my Peabody built Parlee Z3c (oh, and heavier).

Yes Ben is polarizing. I think we all lament the demise of Serotta.

I do.

How many of you bought recent model Serottas? or are you all stuck in colorado III land?

without wading into the why did Serotta fail discussion I would simply posit that other than the remarkable triple butted legend ti, all of his designs have been passed by. He is an acknowledged luddiite when it comes to modern designs and wants. that's his choice. in the meanwhile there are at least 15+ other steel builders who I suspect the majority would be indifferent to owning, other than being able to claim legacy provenance from one of the original "masters"

the population of folks who care about Ben is here on this forum. meanwhile NAHBS rocks on and dollars flow to any number of the new guard. Bishop, Sacha, Kirk, Wages, Kelly, english, winter, signal, alliance, atmo, blah blah blah superb examples of craft.

Last I noted, this is a forum where folks can say their peace. Is it an insult? only if you want to read it that way. Ben certainly has the palmares, but his groundbreaking work is in the past. He paved the road for a lot of folks since, but the aura of him on the torch in 2014/15 does nothing for me

As rugby says, I speak only for myself.

[jpw]

. . . to understand the people who always seem to come out of the woodwork to spin snarky comments whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. Ben did not work at the company nor own it when things went "upside down."

The guy ran a successful bike company that contributed much to the world of cycling for forty years.

Forty. Years.

Think about it.

BBD

you know nothing of the circumstances of my experience with my cracked Legend (and because i've politely refrained from commenting on it in the time since Ben sold the company and it's subsequent demise) and so please take your unhelpful interpretation of my rational comment... and buzz off.

[Admiral Ackbar]

http://media.giphy.com/media/TJBbXQooivUNq/giphy.gif
http://media.giphy.com/media/cjPcjGOOPhbAQ/giphy.gif

[oldpotatoe]

. . . to understand the people who always seem to come out of the woodwork to spin snarky comments whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. Ben did not work at the company nor own it when things went "upside down."

The guy ran a successful bike company that contributed much to the world of cycling for forty years.

Forty. Years.

Think about it.

BBD

BUT I wonder how much relevance he has now tho or in the next 2-3 years. Even Lemond has seen tough sledding since he got back in the bike biz and I'll argue he is a somewhat better known entity than Ben.

PLUS, altho I'm a big believer and fan of steel..small market to say the least. We'll see I guess. I think he has skill, no doubt, but some baggage also, as these threads invariably show.

[93legendti]

No details of the tube set, but those with agendas already pan it with funny claims. The Ottrott ST and Meivici were both improvements on the Legend ST. Who is making a rear end with an ST like rear?

[dumbod]

. . . to understand the people who always seem to come out of the woodwork to spin snarky comments whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. Ben did not work at the company nor own it when things went "upside down."


It's amazing that some people believe that everything that went right with Serotta was due solely to Ben Serotta but that everything that went wrong was someone else's fault.

Bradway was a bunch of bozos (although they hired some good people) but blaming them for the demise of Serotta Cycles is like blaming the emergency room doctor when a victim of massive car crash dies under her care.

[William]

I think it is fairly well known around here that Serotta was heading South before Bradway took over. The company definitely had its ups and downs over the years but it did mange to consistently put out top shelf products. Imo, they priced themselves out of the market at a time when many talented builders were coming onto the scene. Great builds could be had at a lower price point and the Serotta name didn't hold the cache it had in the past with newer generations of cyclists coming onto the scene. I'm sure there are other reasons as well, but this was the most blaring one to me.

That said, what's done is done and the company is relegated to history. If Ben wants to make another go of it, more power to him. I'm sure he still has some fans out there who will buy in. Hopefully he will have learned something of the "whys" Serotta went under and make the needed changes to be successful again.

Best of luck.







William

PS: Play nice everyone.:)

[jmoore]

I was at the Bike Expo in Philly yesterday and sat in on a seminar by Ben Serotta. He showed a picture of a steel tube set he is having made by Columbus. His initial plan is to build some lugged frames himself. Since he no longer has a shop of his own, he is planning on building them in shops of custom builder friends around the world and video documenting the process. He then plans to market them through a higher production facility using Tig construction.



I don't understand this - build some one off lugged bikes to show off the new tubeset and then offer a production bike using the same tubs but TIG'd? How would building a lugged steel bike be an incentive to someone to buy a TIG'd bike?

I'd have zero interest in either of these bikes. I'd like to have a ti Legend or a Pronto.

[lovethesport]

Classics are timeless... the line forms behind me!

[54ny77]

yawn. who cares. that ship done gone sailed, and sunk.

i'd rather buy a bike that was made by one of the great craftsmen formerly employed by serotta. fabricators, painters, etc. those are the guys (or gals) who made it happen.

those prontos sure were nice.

[FlashUNC]

Personally, I'd say there's an enormous opportunity for Ben as a tubing designer.

With the prevalence of steel builders in the U.S. these days (many of them already mentioned in this thread), it's already a glutted market. Some of them trained in the Serotta factory now hanging out their own shingle, and many without Ben's history and pedigree in the sport. But if there's one thing the marketplace proved with Serotta, its that most folks didn't care about the pedigree by itself. That wasn't enough to get the punters in the door.

So be the tubing guru on steel/ti/alu and become the supplier to all these other guys huffing gas fumes standing over a bench. I'd wager that more than a couple of these builders would like some unique tubing to use in their stuff that could add some sizzle to the marketing steak.

Or go get a gig at Alchemy or one of the other not-one-man-but-still-small shops as a geometry/tubing guru and design stuff till the cows come home.

Let someone else stress about the books.

[echelon_john]

"He then plans to market them through a higher production facility using Tig construction."

The phrase that comes to mind is "Too busy getting rich to make any money."

[Ahneida Ride]

To find out what really happened at Serotta, talk to the former employes.

[CunegoFan]

To find out what really happened at Serotta, talk to the former employes.

It seems pretty simple to me: Prices went up, up and up while brand value went down, down, and down.

[John H.]

I remember when Serotta discontinued the CSI.
Lots of grousing on this site.
I recall someone trying to spearhead a final batch of CSI frames. I don't remember what the number necessary to create a batch was, but I do recall only 1-2 forum members ponying up and placing orders.
As far as I know that was the death of steel Serottas.

[jpw]

That tube set may be a revised version of the one he was offering for the 40th anniversary frames that were offered a year or so before things went upside down for the company.

What were they called? It's on the tip of my tongue.

I can picture the photos in my mind.

[eddief]

Ben is more than likely an adult who has gathered some experience and wisdom in his 50 or so years on the planet. I'd say let him do whatever the hell he wants and wish him the best of luck.

[RedRider]

What were they called? It's on the tip of my tongue.

I can picture the photos in my mind.

Le Patron was the lugged version, to be built by Ben, for the 40th Anniversary of Serotta.
Venticinque was the other model to celebrate the 25th Anniversary of the Columbus collaboration.

** No Venticinques were built. One Le Patron was built by Kelly Bedford for Serotta.

[Mr. Pink]

It seems pretty simple to me: Prices went up, up and up while brand value went down, down, and down.

Not really. Prices went up and up and up, and then a worldwide financial crisis hit that destroyed the fictional value of the American RE market, therefore eliminating access for the average schmoe to borrow 15 grand off the house to buy a bike. Hell, that was pocket change compared to the 60 grand for the two cars in the driveway. Let's not even talk about the vacations.

[SPOKE]

Le Patron was the lugged version, to be built by Ben, for the 40th Anniversary of Serotta.
Venticinque was the other model to celebrate the 25th Anniversary of the Columbus collaboration.

** No Venticinques were built. One Le Patron was built by Kelly Bedford for Serotta.

I tried to purchase one of the 10 Le Patron frames. I was willing to lay down a deposit equal to 1/2 the wholesale price and pay the balance when the frame was ready to ship.....they wanted the entire price up front. 😁

[Scooper]

Richard Sachs sells a complete kit with tubes (choice of diameters), lugs (choice of series), BB shell and dropouts. Pretty reasonably priced, too.

Richard Sachs Framebuilding Kits (http://www.richardsachs.com/site/richard-sachs-framebuilding-kits/)

http://www.richardsachs.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/DSC01061.jpg

[malcolm]

Richard Sachs sells a complete kit with tubes (choice of diameters), lugs (choice of series), BB shell and dropouts. Pretty reasonably priced, too.

Richard Sachs Framebuilding Kits (http://www.richardsachs.com/site/richard-sachs-framebuilding-kits/)

http://www.richardsachs.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/DSC01061.jpg

If only it came with a tiny e-Ritchie to braze it up for me!!

[Scooper]

if only it came with a tiny e-ritchie to braze it up for me!!
:)

[SPOKE]

Richard Sachs sells a complete kit with tubes (choice of diameters), lugs (choice of series), BB shell and dropouts. Pretty reasonably priced, too.

Richard Sachs Framebuilding Kits (http://www.richardsachs.com/site/richard-sachs-framebuilding-kits/)

http://www.richardsachs.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/DSC01061.jpg

In Richard's hands that pile of tubes and bits make for two of the finest riding bikes in my collection!😄

[saab2000]

It is hard for me to imagine a finer riding bike than my Serotta CIII. The tubes are the Colorado Concept tubes, drawn by Columbus. When I was at NAHBS this spring I had the pleasure of chatting with the folks from Columbus. They heaped praise on Serotta and that tube set, which they said could still be sourced from Columbus. They call it something else, but they said it was still available.

I'd probably give the nod to my Serotta over even my Zanconato though it's a very tight race. The Zank is made from the Pego-Richie tubes I believe. It's also a superb bike.

It's hard to make a truly direct comparison because the Serotta is welded and has a carbon fork and the Zanconato is of lugged construction and has a steel fork.

But the Serotta exhibits a smoothness that is unlike anything I've ever ridden in steel. The first time I rode one I had to keep looking to see if a tire was softening. It wasn't. It was just that smooth. We have become spoiled.

I guess I'm of the mind that we must wait and see what he comes up with. But I find it difficult to believe that it would be superior to the Colorado Concept tubing which is so nice to ride. That is the finest stuff I've ridden in steel and the only way to 'improve' it might be to make it lighter, but that might have other adverse effects.

We'll see. It's hard to choose between the Serotta and the Zanconato. I'm glad I don't have to do so.

[Mr. Pink]

It is hard for me to imagine a finer riding bike than my Serotta CIII.

I like my Strong better. Still like the C3, but, sorry, the strong wins. By a hair.

[saab2000]

I like my Strong better. Still like the C3, but, sorry, the strong wins. By a hair.

At the level of all these fine customs it's splitting of very fine hairs! These are lucky problems we have!

[bikinchris]

groovy. perhaps he can help me out with my cracked Serotta Legend that was not replaced under warranty when things went upside down.

I have a cracked frame and can't even find someone to PAY to fix it. It should be repaired under warranty, but the company that took over Serotta wanted me to buy a new complete bike. Then they went belly up.

I NEVER had a problem with the products of Serotta. Superbe bikes in all models and forms that Ben sold. Great ride and handling. Serotta turned their back on their dealer base and closed accounts wholesale. Couple that with the fact that newer riders didn't care about the name Serotta and that was the beginning of the end. New riders would have to have ridden floor bikes before they would even consider buying one at a premium price. No rides, no sales.

[Tony]

I like my Strong better. Still like the C3, but, sorry, the strong wins. By a hair.

Mr Pink, do you mind me asking your frame size and your weigh?

[jpw]

Le Patron was the lugged version, to be built by Ben, for the 40th Anniversary of Serotta.
Venticinque was the other model to celebrate the 25th Anniversary of the Columbus collaboration.

** No Venticinques were built. One Le Patron was built by Kelly Bedford for Serotta.

Ah yes, Le Patron. Thanks.

Only one P and no Vs were built? That's an interesting insight. Even at those prices i'm a little bit surprised.

[soulspinner]

I like my Strong better. Still like the C3, but, sorry, the strong wins. By a hair.

Ive been riding my Strong and it remains amazing to me. Seems there are alternatives so good Ben better price em right...........

[jr59]

Le Patron was the lugged version, to be built by Ben, for the 40th Anniversary of Serotta.
Venticinque was the other model to celebrate the 25th Anniversary of the Columbus collaboration.

** No Venticinques were built. One Le Patron was built by Kelly Bedford for Serotta.

I would tend to think this is truly telling. Ben promised a LePatron frame and had Kelly build it.

He designed great bikes and at one time, (maybe still), great tubing. But as a business person, I find his style....... I'm sure Ben has found other people's money easy to spend. I hope this is not another case of this.

I doubt his frame will be in line, price wise with most other frame builders out there. I hope it is, but I doubt it!

[Mr. Pink]

Mr Pink, do you mind me asking your frame size and your weigh?


About 60cm and 210 pounds.

Ive been riding my Strong and it remains amazing to me. Seems there are alternatives so good Ben better price em right...........

Yup. When I started planning on buying the "other" bike about four years ago, Serotta was still in business. But, the price difference was big. For some reason, the Colorado III I bought in 2003 for $3000 (Ultegra), complete bike and even including tax, had risen to over 3500 in 2009 for just a frame and fork. (It wasn't the Colorado III, I forget the last steel frame he was building, but, hey, it was steel). Had steel inflated in that time? Labor? I don't think so. So a friend is riding Ti Strongs, and buys a steel Strong for his wife. Nice frames, and he loves them. I check the price out, and it's nearly half of what they wanted at Serotta. And, in the end, a better frame, although the CIII is still a beauty of a frame.

[TBDSeattle]

Ben is more than likely an adult who has gathered some experience and wisdom in his 50 or so years on the planet. I'd say let him do whatever the hell he wants and wish him the best of luck.

This.

I'm having a very hard time understanding some of the opinions expressed on this topic in this thread. It is as if people don't think that he should try a new business venture.

I'm a bit incredulous at that people don't want a master craftsman to try starting a new business. Isn't trying hard to create your own business one of the things that makes the US great? Failing is extremely common in business. That is why you keep trying.

[RedRider]

Ah yes, Le Patron. Thanks.

Only one P and no Vs were built? That's an interesting insight. Even at those prices i'm a little bit surprised.

It was 2012, the 40th anniversary of the company and the transition to new ownership. A few Patron frames were sold and a number of Vs too which included dealers that supported the project.
The new leadership decided that it was not in the best interest/health of the company to focus resources on manufacturing special steel frames when the future was in titanium and carbon. Development of the Fondo and Pronto were started.
Deposits were returned and one Patron buyer was so determined to have a new steel lugged frame that Kelly was brought in, with the customer's approval, to build it as a Serotta.

[TBDSeattle]

I'm surprised that there are so many negative opinions about him getting back into the bike business. People put down his business acumen, and say there is no market for his bikes, or that other are doing a better job. I think those two positions are literally irrelevant unless you are an investor in his company. If you are not a venture capitalist investing in Ben's new company, why would you care?

What are the upsides and downsides of Ben's plans for a new venture for those of us that are not bankrolling his efforts? Four simplified possible outcomes:

1) His product is not quality, and the business fails --> this does not affect you.
2) His product is quality, and the business fails --> this does not affect you.
3) His product is not quality, and his business succeeds --> Only affects you if you are in his market, and even so only in a very marginal way. As a rider not in the bike industry it does not affect me.
4) His product is quality, and his business succeeds --> Again, only affects you if you are in the industry, and even so the effect is very marginal.

For all of us bike riders that are not in the business, why would I not want a craftsman to try to make a quality product at a good price for me to *consider* buying? Why would I not want someone try to win my business? Nobody will force me to buy something I don't want, and if his company fails, only the VC's lose money.

[malcolm]

I'm surprised that there are so many negative opinions about him getting back into the bike business. People put down his business acumen, and say there is no market for his bikes, or that other are doing a better job. I think those two positions are literally irrelevant unless you are an investor in his company. If you are not a venture capitalist investing in Ben's new company, why would you care?

What are the upsides and downsides of Ben's plans for a new venture for those of us that are not bankrolling his efforts? Four simplified possible outcomes:

1) His product is not quality, and the business fails --> this does not affect you.
2) His product is quality, and the business fails --> this does not affect you.
3) His product is not quality, and his business succeeds --> Only affects you if you are in his market, and even so only in a very marginal way. As a rider not in the bike industry it does not affect me.
4) His product is quality, and his business succeeds --> Again, only affects you if you are in the industry, and even so the effect is very marginal.

For all of us bike riders that are not in the business, why would I not want a craftsman to try to make a quality product at a good price for me to *consider* buying? Why would I not want someone try to win my business? Nobody will force me to buy something I don't want, and if his company fails, only the VC's lose money.

Has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with emotion. Just like Lance, Serotta is an emotionally charged name for whatever reason. The reality is neither of them really have much if any impact directly on our lives. I personally have moved on. Serotta was once the mountain top for me and when I became able to afford one I bought it and was fortunate enough to own several, but at some point along the line for me the pricing became ridiculous as it was a huge premium compared to very similar if not superior products. I wasn't angry or inflamed I just moved on. I wish him success at whatever price point because hey it's a capitalist society if he can sell them at a competitive price point great at a premium well that's great too.

[John H.]

Problem is that he goes big with his ideas. When s**t goes sideways for him (and history has shown that it does) it leaves carnage in his wake.
Unpaid vendors, people out of work, etc.
I agree that he has some palmares in terms of building and innovation but at this point he should stick to solo ventures.
Solo building is a good idea. I am sure he has not forgotten how to braze, even though he has not been a full time builder for a good 25 years.
Tubing is not a bad idea if he consults on the deal and gets a cut.
Forming a business- not so sure about that. I think that he would have a really hard time finding enough dealers to invest in him once again.
I am not saying any of this to disparage the man, just telling it like it is.

Has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with emotion. Just like Lance, Serotta is an emotionally charged name for whatever reason. The reality is neither of them really have much if any impact directly on our lives. I personally have moved on. Serotta was once the mountain top for me and when I became able to afford one I bought it and was fortunate enough to own several, but at some point along the line for me the pricing became ridiculous as it was a huge premium compared to very similar if not superior products. I wasn't angry or inflamed I just moved on. I wish him success at whatever price point because hey it's a capitalist society if he can sell them at a competitive price point great at a premium well that's great too.

[raygunner]

This is great news for everyone wanting to take a delorean back to 1980

I think you meant to say "1985".

[PQJ]

I think you meant to say "1985".

Or 1955, where it first went. Or 2015, where it next went (hard to believe that's next year; still no flying hover boards - damn!!). Or 1855, where it last went. Before becoming a train.

[Tony]

I haven't been riding much as I just bought a new home and lots to do. This morning was a first in a month. My 16.60 lbs C111 has evolved much over the years. I take every opportunity to try other bikes my size, steel, carbon, Ti, the C111 always impresses.

https://plus.google.com/photos/107709068384636814318/albums/6080506149079078673

[cmg]

"and everything to do with emotion." yep. alot of the customers believed in the brand and then watched it move beyond reach. The customer base he had wasn't good enough, priced it out of reach. My Legend went for $4500+ frame/fork new while other Ti frames/fork were going for $1200 - $2000+. when the bottom falls out he's left wondering what happened.

[Elefantino]

Or 2015, where it next went (hard to believe that's next year; still no flying hover boards - damn!!)

Wrong!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/142464853/hendo-hoverboards-worlds-first-real-hoverboard

[DarkStar]

groovy. perhaps he can help me out with my cracked Serotta Legend that was not replaced under warranty when things went upside down.
Me as well!!!
No snark intended.

[thwart]

It is hard for me to imagine a finer riding bike than my Serotta CIII. The tubes are the Colorado Concept tubes, drawn by Columbus. When I was at NAHBS this spring I had the pleasure of chatting with the folks from Columbus. They heaped praise on Serotta and that tube set, which they said could still be sourced from Columbus. They call it something else, but they said it was still available.

I'd probably give the nod to my Serotta over even my Zanconato though it's a very tight race. The Zank is made from the Pego-Richie tubes I believe. It's also a superb bike.

It's hard to make a truly direct comparison because the Serotta is welded and has a carbon fork and the Zanconato is of lugged construction and has a steel fork.

But the Serotta exhibits a smoothness that is unlike anything I've ever ridden in steel.
My experience as well.

I bought my CIII (eBay, NOS from a dealer built with 105, for $1000!) after getting back into cycling, and by then had a few good bikes to compare to. During the first ride I remember thinking "Wow… I haven't ridden anything like this… must be why Serotta has that great rep". After I discovered what frame size worked best for me, the CIII was sold as it was unfortunately just too small.

Thankfully, my CDA has a very similar ride.

[mister]

If only it came with a tiny e-Ritchie to braze it up for me!!

and to design it for you...which is the most important part atmo

[Birddog]

Based on the tone of some of the comments on this thread I think Ben must have been wearing some Rapha or Paul Smith duds when he gave the seminar.

[pbarry]

Problem is that he goes big with his ideas. When s**t goes sideways for him (and history has shown that it does) it leaves carnage in his wake.
Unpaid vendors, people out of work, etc.
I agree that he has some palmares in terms of building and innovation but at this point he should stick to solo ventures.
Solo building is a good idea. I am sure he has not forgotten how to braze, even though he has not been a full time builder for a good 25 years.
Tubing is not a bad idea if he consults on the deal and gets a cut.
Forming a business- not so sure about that. I think that he would have a really hard time finding enough dealers to invest in him once again.
I am not saying any of this to disparage the man, just telling it like it is.

+1

Ben deserves an American Hall of Frame Builders award. Not the best business person, but a pioneer without a doubt.

FWIW, I own two Serotta frames that are works of art. No axe to grind, no emotion in my commentary.

A suggestion going forward: Build the darn one-off frames with your buds, then set about marketing them. There is a start-up! promotion fatigue in the marketplace. It's amplified when an old hand tries to co-opt social media. No substance=no sales.

[bluesea]

Good for Ben. The thing not to do is nothing.

[pdmtong]

Good for Ben. The thing not to do is nothing.

Agreed...stay active, live longer

As for his project output, yawn, absolutely uninteresting to moi

[bluesea]

^ A modern-legacy Spirit level+ tubeset with the Serotta curved rear triangle would be pretty cool! As for TIG framesets, the first name that comes to mind is KB.

[jpw]

if it comes with tapered stays and those lovely signature Serotta dropouts (plus a discount against my unfulfilled Legend warranty) then i'm in.

[jpw]

It was 2012, the 40th anniversary of the company and the transition to new ownership. A few Patron frames were sold and a number of Vs too which included dealers that supported the project.
The new leadership decided that it was not in the best interest/health of the company to focus resources on manufacturing special steel frames when the future was in titanium and carbon. Development of the Fondo and Pronto were started.
Deposits were returned and one Patron buyer was so determined to have a new steel lugged frame that Kelly was brought in, with the customer's approval, to build it as a Serotta.

ever more interesting insight. thanks.

so someone out there has a very unique Serotta. kudos to him (i assume).

[fiamme red]

It's interesting to me that as the prestige of the Serotta brand declined, the names became more and more foreign, some of them unpronounceable by the average American.

Earlier names (from the period when the Serotta brand had real cachet):

Colorado
CSi
Atlanta
Legend
Rapid Tour

Later names (from the period of decline in brand cachet):

Classique
Hors Categorie
Concours
Ottrott
Nove
Fierté
Meivici
Ventincinque
Uniscasi
La Corsa
Cœur d'Acier

[Dromen]

It was 2012, the 40th anniversary of the company and the transition to new ownership. A few Patron frames were sold and a number of Vs too which included dealers that supported the project.
The new leadership decided that it was not in the best interest/health of the company to focus resources on manufacturing special steel frames when the future was in titanium and carbon. Development of the Fondo and Pronto were started.
Deposits were returned and one Patron buyer was so determined to have a new steel lugged frame that Kelly was brought in, with the customer's approval, to build it as a Serotta.

we need to have that bottle of Gaja...you talk, ill listen.

[Buzz Killington]

How's the economics of this working? That's what I find most interesting. Where's he building these frames and when/how do they get paid? Seems like a way to (potentially) cheat multiple builders. Man I sound pessimistic. Are these custom tubes superior to what Mark DeNucci getting drawn for him?

[CaptStash]

I haven't been riding much as I just bought a new home and lots to do. This morning was a first in a month. My 16.60 lbs C111 has evolved much over the years. I take every opportunity to try other bikes my size, steel, carbon, Ti, the C111 always impresses.

https://plus.google.com/photos/107709068384636814318/albums/6080506149079078673

Nice bike. Even nicer dog!

CaptStash....

[Kirk Pacenti]

I haven't been riding much as I just bought a new home and lots to do. This morning was a first in a month. My 16.60 lbs C111 has evolved much over the years. I take every opportunity to try other bikes my size, steel, carbon, Ti, the C111 always impresses.

https://plus.google.com/photos/107709068384636814318/albums/6080506149079078673

Nice bike!

I have to get you some new rim decals... oh, and apparently, a new rim for your front wheel as well. ;)

Cheers,
KP

[Tony]

I've thought about it Kirk, a matching front SL 23 from you. I like to run my choice of tires, including my favorite, vittoria open corsa cx 25. I've had two tires blow off the stan's while pumping, and the Vittoria's fit so loosely that I don't trust it on that rim.
So far no tires that stayed on the rim has blown off, and the light weight feels nice up front. The stan's seems to be wearing faster, much faster than the SL. When it comes time to replace it will be a Pacenti.

BTW, I like the old rim decals a little better than the new :)