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View Full Version : "Lance Armstrong: Stop at Nothing" Friday 9 p.m. on Showtime


fiamme red
11-06-2014, 12:02 PM
For those who aren't already entirely sick of the subject:

http://www.sho.com/sho/reality-docs/titles/3410419/lance-armstrong-stop-at-nothing#/index

David Hinckley's review in the New York Daily News:

http://nydn.us/1GmgnMt

"If you harbor any residual sympathy for Lance Armstrong, the world-beating cyclist who lost all his medals when he ’fessed up to major doping, this documentary will pedal it right out of you."

Joachim
11-06-2014, 12:11 PM
Who is this Lance Armstrong person, people are making documentaries about?

54ny77
11-06-2014, 12:21 PM
I don't get showtime on my cable channel package.

Oh well.

Dead Man
11-06-2014, 12:25 PM
Based on the trailer I saw, looks like a gratuitous hate-fest from a little pile of sulky people who cannot let it go. What's the point?

rockdoc
11-06-2014, 02:23 PM
A valid point is that LA is a big story, and most normal non bike weenie people haven't been following it like we have. They deserve to know what kind of a dirtbag LA was.

p nut
11-06-2014, 02:26 PM
Based on the trailer I saw, looks like a gratuitous hate-fest from a little pile of sulky people who cannot let it go. What's the point?

Assuming myriad of Greg and Kathy clips?

CunegoFan
11-06-2014, 02:28 PM
Based on the trailer I saw, looks like a gratuitous hate-fest from a little pile of sulky people who cannot let it go. What's the point?

So you are saying Betsy Andreu is featured.

A valid point is that LA is a big story, and most normal non bike weenie people haven't been following it like we have. They deserve to know what kind of a dirtbag LA was.

They deserve to know that cycling has a long running doping problem that is pervasive and not just a few bad guys. This "blame Armstrong" approach to doping does not do that.

Black Dog
11-06-2014, 04:02 PM
Assuming myriad of Greg and Kathy clips?

Really, how many times have you seen or read about these two slamming LA?


Just let your love for the fallen angel go...just let it go....... :rolleyes:

rockdoc
11-06-2014, 06:45 PM
Yes and Armstrong was a real jerk about the whole thing.


They deserve to know that cycling has a long running doping problem that is pervasive and not just a few bad guys. This "blame Armstrong" approach to doping does not do that.

idrinkwater
11-06-2014, 07:30 PM
what happened to the movie they were making about him? The one where they had to get every team's bike from every year for every rider?

bjf
11-06-2014, 07:34 PM
IMHO LA became a really bad guy not because he doped (everyone did), and not because he did it better than everyone else, but because he was such a jerk about almost everything. Still is, as far as I can see.

F150
11-08-2014, 08:52 AM
Surprised no comments on the show. I'm dumb enough to bite, so here it goes:

I thought it well produced. Not a hate-fest, but came across rather as a chronicle of first-hand accounts, audio taped conversations and depositions taken under oath, little or no "hearsay", none of which I had been exposed to previously. Didn't know a book had been written, didn't know depositions taken in 2005, etc. Better things to do with my time, I suppose.

Yes, the LeMond's and Betsy Andreu were featured. I heard nothing from these three that struck me as vindictive in any way. LA went out of his way to destroy these people in a way only a [insert proper clinical term here] could; even in his Oprah moment where he admitted to taking each and every drug she listed in her deposition, he could not bring himself to admit Betsy Andreu spoke the truth. In his deposition tape, he acknowledged the setting was equal to a courtroom and that false statements constitute perjury, then proceeded to lie and disparage the character of others with every breath.

Makes me wonder what would have happened had Lance threatened someone other than a 140# cyclist or their wife. Sneaking suspicion someone would have beaten the scumbag to within an inch of his life a very long time ago.

What he did was beyond being a jerk...

don compton
11-08-2014, 10:32 AM
:rolleyes:

velomonkey
11-08-2014, 10:47 AM
They deserve to know that cycling has a long running doping problem that is pervasive and not just a few bad guys. This "blame Armstrong" approach to doping does not do that.

The CunegoFan law - as a paceline online discussion about Armstrong grows longer, the probability of CunegoFan shifting the blame to others approaches 1.

Lance made his bed, he needs to be a big boy now.

Climb01742
11-08-2014, 03:43 PM
Surprised no comments on the show. I'm dumb enough to bite, so here it goes:

I thought it well produced. Not a hate-fest, but came across rather as a chronicle of first-hand accounts, audio taped conversations and depositions taken under oath, little or no "hearsay", none of which I had been exposed to previously. Didn't know a book had been written, didn't know depositions taken in 2005, etc. Better things to do with my time, I suppose.

Yes, the LeMond's and Betsy Andreu were featured. I heard nothing from these three that struck me as vindictive in any way. LA went out of his way to destroy these people in a way only a [insert proper clinical term here] could; even in his Oprah moment where he admitted to taking each and every drug she listed in her deposition, he could not bring himself to admit Betsy Andreu spoke the truth. In his deposition tape, he acknowledged the setting was equal to a courtroom and that false statements constitute perjury, then proceeded to lie and disparage the character of others with every breath.

Makes me wonder what would have happened had Lance threatened someone other than a 140# cyclist or their wife. Sneaking suspicion someone would have beaten the scumbag to within an inch of his life a very long time ago.

What he did was beyond being a jerk...

Agree with your take on the documentary. Well done, straightforward and no axe grinding. Interestingly, it was made by Aussies, which might account for its evenhandedness?

Two things stood out for me:

When Lance picked a fight with Betsy, he picked the wrong person. I liked her even more after viewing this.

And no matter how disgusting you think Lance is, he's actually more disgusting in his own words and on video. Everyone may have doped, but no one vindictively and selfishly ruined lives like Lance. I'd be curious what a psychiatrist would make of him.

r_mutt
11-08-2014, 07:27 PM
of never follows myriad.

merlincustom1
11-08-2014, 09:43 PM
of never follows myriad.

It's both an adjective and a noun, so "of" is proper usage as a noun phrase.

Hawker
11-08-2014, 09:44 PM
I've seen all the Lance films, specials, etc. I thought this was well done, honest and not overly sensationlistic at all. Sad for everyone, especially for Lance who is still unwilling see his faults and admit all of his culpability.

cash05458
11-09-2014, 12:04 AM
very well done and thank you for putting it out there as I did not know...

oldpotatoe
11-09-2014, 05:45 AM
Based on the trailer I saw, looks like a gratuitous hate-fest from a little pile of sulky people who cannot let it go. What's the point?

Hmmm, I hear this 'let it go' stuff all the time, because I can't 'let it go', after my biz partner of 10 years and 'friend' if 18, lied, and stole from me for those 10 years.

I'm not LA and my situation pales in comparison but when a 'friend' screws you bad enough, for long enough, to your face, 'let it go', is more than a tune in a Disney cartoon about snow.

His team mates were as dirty as he(just not dickheads), but there are more than a few innocent bystanders who got the LA treatment and I expect they won't 'let it go', nor should they. This idea that those screwed are somehow the ones who should show forgiveness, and if they don't they are somehow 'wrong', is poppycock.

dancinkozmo
11-09-2014, 06:35 AM
Who is this Lance Armstrong person, people are making documentaries about?

duh !...first man to walk on the moon...you need to get out more dude.

http://dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/armstrong.jpg

fuzzalow
11-09-2014, 09:04 AM
^ Neil Armstrong was a true hero. A great American who exemplified teamwork, dignity, propriety and reserve. He absolutely did not wish to overstate his role in the Apollo program and never called attention to himself in all the years after Columbia's safe return to earth.

This is especially poignant in that we now have 2 ex-Seal Team 6 members, messrs. Bisonette & O'Neil who are both falling over each other in clawing over each other's backside to each claim to have fired the killing shots to OBL on that fateful night. At stake are book advances, talk shows, celebrity. This is not the way of a patriot and not the duty worthy to a Seal. Disgraceful and shame on both of these whores.

Pardon the thread drift. To even consider both named Armstrongs in the same train of thought is a horror in contrasts.

AustinHorse
11-09-2014, 09:07 AM
I was hoping for more thread drift on the proper usage of myriad myself

oldpotatoe
11-09-2014, 09:11 AM
^ Neil Armstrong was a true hero. A great American who exemplified teamwork, dignity, propriety and reserve. He absolutely did not wish to overstate his role in the Apollo program and never called attention to himself in all the years after Columbia's safe return to earth.

This is especially poignant in that we now have 2 ex-Seal Team 6 members, messrs. Bisonette & O'Neil who are both falling over each other in clawing over each other's backside to each claim to have fired the killing shots to OBL on that fateful night. At stake are book advances, talk shows, celebrity. This is not the way of a patriot and not the duty worthy to a Seal. Disgraceful and shame on both of these whores.

Pardon the thread drift. To even consider both named Armstrongs in the same train of thought is a horror in contrasts.

Indeed...when I was in and met a Seal, current or former, I'd ask what team...I never heard of anybody say they were in Team 6..if they were, they would say, 'one of the teams'. Very uncharacteristic of Seals in general and Team 6 specifically..surprising. Knew a team 6 guy, long hair, gone a lot, spoke Spanish.

PQJ
11-09-2014, 10:31 AM
Leadership needs to flow from the top down. When you have former defense secreteries throwing their president under the bus to maximize the sales potential of book, it says to the rest of the troops: honor, integrity and respect be damned, money is all that matters. Disgraceful all around.

And as for Lance, judging by the responses of some, you'd think Lance had been sentenced to death or life in prison. The reality is quite different and the extent of his justly deserved punishment is that he can't participate in certain athletic events. Karma is a bitch and he is getting his, is all. Why is that so hard to understand?

Dead Man
11-09-2014, 10:47 AM
Hmmm, I hear this 'let it go' stuff all the time, because I can't 'let it go', after my biz partner of 10 years and 'friend' if 18, lied, and stole from me for those 10 years.

I'm not LA and my situation pales in comparison but when a 'friend' screws you bad enough, for long enough, to your face, 'let it go', is more than a tune in a Disney cartoon about snow.

His team mates were as dirty as he(just not dickheads), but there are more than a few innocent bystanders who got the LA treatment and I expect they won't 'let it go', nor should they. This idea that those screwed are somehow the ones who should show forgiveness, and if they don't they are somehow 'wrong', is poppycock.

So you're saying you think we should have more movies and interviews and threads re-hashing that Lance Armstrong lied and cheated and abused relationships?

Do you continually rant about your hatred for your ex-friend to your other friends? Do you bring the topic up over and over, despite there being nothing new to say about it for years?

Your inability to forgive, your retention of your resent, is your own private problem, and once the whole issue is as resolved as it's going to get, you gotta S T F U about it. 'Cause it's not hurting the Cluster B person who wronged you- it's just bugging the crap out of everyone else who has to hear about it.

OtayBW
11-09-2014, 11:45 AM
Cause it's not hurting the Cluster B person who wronged you- it's just bugging the crap out of everyone else who has to hear about it.No. Not really. I just let it go....

shovelhd
11-09-2014, 11:48 AM
Based on the trailer I saw, looks like a gratuitous hate-fest from a little pile of sulky people who cannot let it go. What's the point?

Post #4 in this thread.

Dead Man
11-09-2014, 11:53 AM
Post #4 in this thread.

?

oldpotatoe
11-09-2014, 01:03 PM
So you're saying you think we should have more movies and interviews and threads re-hashing that Lance Armstrong lied and cheated and abused relationships?

Do you continually rant about your hatred for your ex-friend to your other friends? Do you bring the topic up over and over, despite there being nothing new to say about it for years?

Your inability to forgive, your retention of your resent, is your own private problem, and once the whole issue is as resolved as it's going to get, you gotta S T F U about it. 'Cause it's not hurting the Cluster B person who wronged you- it's just bugging the crap out of everyone else who has to hear about it.

Thanks mom.

Dead Man
11-09-2014, 02:21 PM
Thanks mom.

Ignore the advice part of the post, then.

You seem to be implying that people who have been wronged should continue to gripe about it long after the issue is as resolved as it's going to get.

Once it becomes griping for the sake of just bugging Lance (and probably doesn't- I suspect he likes any and all attention, even negative), which it certainly seems like we've crossed into, long ago, it goes from righteously punitive to purely vindictive.

Rueda Tropical
11-09-2014, 02:30 PM
So you're saying you think we should have more movies and interviews and threads re-hashing that Lance Armstrong lied and cheated and abused relationships?

I'd say as long as there is an audience for it and money can be made off it you will see more of it. Nothing like a big star involved in a big scandal to attract an audience.

I don't see the point in wringing your hands over it. It's not like Armstrong is owed any sympathy. LA would have been just as mercenary if it made him a buck. So long as there is meat left on the bones someone is likely to pick over the carcass.

gasman
11-09-2014, 04:29 PM
OK kids ,let's avoid personal attacks otherwise this thread will be shut down.

Thanks

Peter P.
11-09-2014, 05:03 PM
Why won't the hate, bitterness, and anger go away? It's partially about the money.

Lance made over $100 million through not just his deceit, but through the trail of ruined careers and reputations he left in his wake.

And we also can't let it go because Lance hasn't asked forgiveness. I'm one who believes forgiveness is not so much given as asked for.

For all you Bible believers, and for you non-believers you can perhaps turn to Dr. Laura Schlessinger, forgiveness requires 3 things: Repentance, resolve, and restitution. Lance exhibited none of the three.

If the documentary makes youtube.com, post so on the forum; I don't have a TV.

Dead Man
11-09-2014, 05:27 PM
Why won't the hate, bitterness, and anger go away? It's partially about the money.

Lance made over $100 million through not just his deceit, but through the trail of ruined careers and reputations he left in his wake.

And we also can't let it go because Lance hasn't asked forgiveness. I'm one who believes forgiveness is not so much given as asked for.

For all you Bible believers, and for you non-believers you can perhaps turn to Dr. Laura Schlessinger, forgiveness requires 3 things: Repentance, resolve, and restitution. Lance and exhibited none of the three.

If the documentary makes youtube.com, post so on the forum; I don't have a TV.

It might be a looooong time till Lance truly "comes to Jesus" on this whole thing. I suspect he's an extremely flawed personality (see comment about Cluster B above). Is the point of rehashing all of this crap via interviews and movies and internet threads to brow-beat him into repentance?

shovelhd
11-09-2014, 05:29 PM
Lance reads The Paceline? Wow.

BumbleBeeDave
11-09-2014, 05:58 PM
. . . and will likely be a millionaire for the rest of his life even if he loses the whistleblower case. He's not a dummy and has certainly salted away enough offshore to live comfortably.

Every penny of that was gotten from cheating--and destroying anybody who tried to tell the truth about it. So crime pays and cheaters DO prosper.

I feel bad for his kids, but for him? Nope. He's deserving everything he's getting.

BBD

majorpat
11-09-2014, 08:15 PM
Those who know don't talk and those that talk don't know.

Go find a WW2 combat vet on Tuesday and shake his hand, but hurry up they are dying quickly. Bet he won't brag about who he shot.

Oh, sorry, forgot it was a Lance thread when it started.

shovelhd
11-09-2014, 08:30 PM
That was a very well done piece, worth watching a second time.

torelli
11-09-2014, 10:14 PM
Stumbled across this when it premiered the other night and I have watched parts of it again. First off I will admit it does center around the Andreus, sorry not sure if that's spelled right and the Lemonds. Betsy is certainly the central point but once you see this it is clear to see why. The most revealing parts are the expanded clips of the depositions and also the follow ups around the Oprah interview.
Like others have said if you had any sympathy for Armstrong after you watch this you are an fool. And if you have the attitude that well everyone was doping back then, what was the big deal try watching this. This goes way beyond just a guy doping to get the success he had.

Dead Man
11-09-2014, 10:16 PM
I'd watch it, but I don't have access. Someone should bootleg a copy to youtube

dancinkozmo
11-10-2014, 04:27 AM
...on a brighter note, "the LA story" is out in comicbook format now...mustve been written before oprah, he still says he never doped...

http://www.4thletter.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/cenayell.jpg

oldpotatoe
11-10-2014, 05:57 AM
Ignore the advice part of the post, then.

You seem to be implying that people who have been wronged should continue to gripe about it long after the issue is as resolved as it's going to get.

Once it becomes griping for the sake of just bugging Lance (and probably doesn't- I suspect he likes any and all attention, even negative), which it certainly seems like we've crossed into, long ago, it goes from righteously punitive to purely vindictive.

Nope, I'm relaying personal experience by me, is all. Not implying anybody should do anything, but if ya get screwed hard enough, it's tough, VERY tough to 'let it go'. I just understand a little where the likes of Betsy comes from.

BUT It HASN'T been 'resolved' at all. The dickhead that lied to me has never approached me, nor explained why he lied and stole from me.

Watching LA, you see he still feels like HE'S the victim somehow..Contrite isn't in his lexicon. I can see why some people formerly in the Lance camp are a little 'angry'.

fuzzalow
11-10-2014, 07:42 AM
I would not normally watch anything related to LA. Never been a fan, never GAS as it was obvious from Day 1 what was really going on. But I caved and watched because of the discussion here about the documentary. HaHa! it was peer pressure but I'll say it was being open minded.

It was well done, as matter-of-fact in its portrayals of all the major players. No histrionics from anyone and there are few disputed topics left that cycling enthusiasts don't already know about. The film only mentions in passing Thom Weisle and the discussions held with the UCI towards accepting the back-dated prescription for steroids to defuse the failed drug test.

I believe LA to be a sociopath. But human weakness was not enough to propel him to the heights he achieved, he need to be as equally exploited at a finer level than he was aware and capable of. And that sophistication came from Thom Weisle who, as an investment banker, knew the upside potential to leveraging a contrived global phenomenon. Sure, LA made millions but the big corporate cogs & wheels in the machine made more. LA's job was to win TdFs and as capo regime keep the unruly peloton in line and in check. Be the bully and the patron. Weisle, as a man accustomed to deal making, would take care and take charge of corporate relationships. Certainly LA got smarter over time by seeing how the game was played by being around these guys, but in the beginning all he had was ambition and a gifted physiological response to PEDs.

The money machine part of the story will never be told. It isn't interesting enough to the average joe and getting data from privately held firms is impossible. But I find it fascinating just the same and there is always a story within a story in anything as big as this. It may have started with the sport of cycling but it was always about the money. Weisle knew there was little to lose by committing minimal risk capital in taking a speculative position on LA.

A enjoyable documentary on the parts we already know.

torelli
11-12-2014, 07:47 AM
Very well put. I think alot of people don't realize the magnitude and what was at stake here with his doping. if it was just about doping to win and accomplish what he did would be one thing but alot of people and I mean alot of profited from his success. Look at Trek for starters. By the time Armstrong won his seventh Tour they had had exponentially increased their profits.

I must say myself it was really good to see Lemond stick to his guns after all the hell and b.s. Armstrong put him though. Lemond was a big inspiration to a lot of riders back when I first got into riding.

axel23
11-12-2014, 09:37 AM
My view of the Lance affair is slightly different, informed not just by cycling and doping. This has all the earmarks of a classical drama. It's Faustian, in which a bargain is struck and payment comes due. And it's also Greek, Sophoclean really, in the extraordinary display of hubris.

So this is not something we are going to let go of. It's far too interesting, fitting into a narrative of our time and of something much larger. To watch Lance after winning the CoreState's prize in 1993 is too see the hallmarks of someone reaching, and then overreaching. Incredible stuff.

bcroslin
11-12-2014, 10:58 AM
My view of the Lance affair is slightly different, informed not just by cycling and doping. This has all the earmarks of a classical drama. It's Faustian, in which a bargain is struck and payment comes due. And it's also Greek, Sophoclean really, in the extraordinary display of hubris.

So this is not something we are going to let go of. It's far too interesting, fitting into a narrative of our time and of something much larger. To watch Lance after winning the CoreState's prize in 1993 is too see the hallmarks of someone reaching, and then overreaching. Incredible stuff.

This.

I watched the documentary yesterday and it's very good. It lays out the story much like the Wheelman book did. It's a compelling story and no matter what you think of Armstrong and if he was singled out it's worth watching because it lays out how systematic the whole thing was and how far Lance went to destroy anyone who spoke out against him.

fuzzalow
11-12-2014, 02:28 PM
My view of the Lance affair is slightly different, informed not just by cycling and doping. This has all the earmarks of a classical drama. It's Faustian, in which a bargain is struck and payment comes due. And it's also Greek, Sophoclean really, in the extraordinary display of hubris.

It's a compelling story and no matter what you think of Armstrong and if he was singled out it's worth watching because it lays out how systematic the whole thing was and how far Lance went to destroy anyone who spoke out against him.

To believe this is to fall prey to the classic tale of triumph and tragedy centered on the superhuman gifts and abilities along with the human frailties that bedeviled and befell LA. It is a tale most attractive to the masses because it makes for high drama and also makes it comprehensible as a sporting drama rather than the true happenings of the enterprises that have interests and investments in all that was to prevail. And there was always throughout the entire run of seven TdF victories the reliance on LA to drive the myth forwards to bring in the crowds. And LA did this superbly. LA was a big player to a global enterprise but he had neither the skills nor the capability to have done this alone.

There was a business enterprise that both fueled and fed off of the annual TdF month-long orgy and spectacle. This global enterprise possessed many moving parts. It is folly to believe that LA had the smarts to envision and implement such a far reaching endeavor although as much of the myth making would capitalize on, LA certainly wanted the mass public to believe he could do it all. LA always on his "crackberry" plotting corporate strategy or discussing deals or revenge with his attorneys. Such buffoonery that LA would have you believe he was sorting through résumés in building his crack legal team. Did this legal team come from out of thin air? Who paid their retainers? Who enlisted a marketing team? Finance? The naive public has a much easier time believing one person controls all the levers of enterprise. And LA's ego no doubt made himself a willing particant to yet one more illusion foisted on the public.

This is not to create the idea of some mass conspiracy with evil intent. It was however a business venture that has all the complexities that business and corporate deal-making can entail. If LA was not driven to win in the manner that he did, the business opportunities would never develop. But he did deliver and they all prospered mightily for 7 TdF victories.

If you are a business and LA is your stake horse, it only makes sense to let that horse run. All the plausible deniability rests with the businesses that profit selling clothes, shoes, bikes or sunglasses but never directly involve themselves with the seamy underside of cycle racing. But also don't assume for a moment that those aspects were not accounted for, budgeted and run with the same discipline and focus as any business component. As Tyler Hamilton said in the documentary about setting up as team leader away from Postal "it was complicated, it wasn't all taken care of like it was at Postal".

Dead Man
11-12-2014, 02:52 PM
I just don't think Lance is that special. I think his situation became special because he was winning and came under a hell of a lot of scrutiny, but I don't think he's a monster who Hitler'd his way up to power in the cycling world. I think he just responded to the whole thing in the way all Cluster Bs would.

Look at it this way: who is going to use performance enhancing drugs and lie really well about it, to defraud the entire world, and then not defend his position when come under fire? How could he have not used intimidation and defamation to save himself? Once confronted with an oath, do you think other people, who have also already gotten themselves in so deep, would just relent and go, "ok, now I'm having to SWEAR I'm not a cheater? Well that's just going too far- my conscience, which has no problem robbing people of their rightful position on the leaderboard and defrauding the entire cycling world, will now stop at this. Too far, man! Too far!"

Right.

Likewise, biting back at the Lemonds and Andreuses, even to the point of seeing them destroyed, is just not going to be outside of his pretty much non-existent ethical boundary. It probably just felt like committing, to him.. and I'm sure he also didn't even really feel bad about it, believing them to be jealous, vindictive, spiteful people (and since they certainly seem to be, that's not much of a stretch).

Screw them all. They're all still rich, and they're all still pricks.

Dead Man
11-12-2014, 04:54 PM
I never did see the second half of Lance's Oprah confessional.... anybody have a lead on an online source? Youboob ain't givin' it up to me.

cash05458
11-12-2014, 05:29 PM
yeah, very good documentary...not sure what folks' problem are with watching and or discussing the biggest story of the sport we supposedly care about or folks' personal opinions of forgetting and letting go...but stuff em...this is a good watch...thanks for posting...to "the B"...apologies to you that folks on a cycling site would still be speaking about the armstrong case...must be mighty tough for you...

axel23
11-12-2014, 06:24 PM
To believe this is to fall prey to the classic tale of triumph and tragedy centered on the superhuman gifts and abilities along with the human frailties that bedeviled and befell LA.

He did have superhuman gifts, that's what makes this tragic. He was no ordinary rider who happened to be doping. And his frailties did not bedevil or "befall him" - he chose his actions. Sure, business interests and legal complexities all entered in, but they were the result of Lance's decisions. He could have opted out on any number of occasions. Johan Bruyneel didn't force him to dope, nor did Bill Stapleton tell him to dissemble.

LA is a tragic figure - at least for the sports world. The astonishing successes. Overcoming cancer. Global hero feted by world leaders. Yes, Goethe and Sophocles would have recognized him in a heartbeat.

cash05458
11-12-2014, 06:36 PM
"He did have superhuman gifts, that's what makes this tragic."

not to turn this into a big thread as it tends to go...but that is VERY debatable...how folks respond to those drugs is what is at issue...some respond VERY well to that stuff...others who have naturally high numbers in certain areas don't get near the gain...it really is up in the air that the guy had superhuman gifts or not...he never came close to the numbers of a guy say like Lemond who was naturally gifted...as for tragedy, I think that lies more with the folks he hurt and went after as he added an element to sociopathy not seen in bike racing before...no, Goethe and Sophocles would not seen him as a classic "tragic" figure...he does not fit your definition of that if you want to go back and reread N's The Birth of Tragedy...rather, they would have seen him as tawdry and very commonplace and pretty common via guys doing stuff for money...the real definition of classic tragedy involves having to do the right and correct and moral thing and be destroyed by it...armstrong was anything but that...

Dead Man
11-12-2014, 06:40 PM
No... he was definitely superhuman. But you need to be more than superhuman to win among superhumans...... that's why everyone doped.

ntb1001
11-12-2014, 06:53 PM
Any fellow Canadians know when & how we can watch it here?

cash05458
11-12-2014, 07:01 PM
No... he was definitely superhuman. But you need to be more than superhuman to win among superhumans...... that's why everyone doped.

that frankly is ridiculous...do a little research about the effects of these things on different folks...you may be very surprised...all this stuff is documented...it really is not the case at all that "everyone was doped...he was...so the best guy won" pr job that is going around via the uneducated/lance lovers (take your pick these days)...sure everyone was doped...not much of a question there...but what you were seeing was that some reacted to it differently and became winners when pretty much they would have been donkeys...lance never would have won a single tour if he had been clean and everyone else had been as well...no way in hell...the guy never had the numbers otherwise...that is a scientific fact...let's here it for science...

bikinchris
11-12-2014, 07:43 PM
The only thing I have to say is:
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231407/uncyclopedia/images/1/11/Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

fuzzalow
11-12-2014, 08:08 PM
He did have superhuman gifts, that's what makes this tragic. He was no ordinary rider who happened to be doping. And his frailties did not bedevil or "befall him" - he chose his actions. Sure, business interests and legal complexities all entered in, but they were the result of Lance's decisions. He could have opted out on any number of occasions. Johan Bruyneel didn't force him to dope, nor did Bill Stapleton tell him to dissemble.

LA is a tragic figure - at least for the sports world. The astonishing successes. Overcoming cancer. Global hero feted by world leaders. Yes, Goethe and Sophocles would have recognized him in a heartbeat.

I was not a Comp Lit or Humanities major so I will admit being out of my depth here as to the archtype of the tragic hero, but I contend that LA was never a tragic hero. He never had even a semblance of ever being virtuous and every aspect of his competitve life from pre-cancer to his zenith of fame and glory was always overshadowed by suspicions that LA was a cheat. His one lucky break at winning the rainbow jersey was not indication of true talent as there have been many "no hopers" that have claimed an arc en ceil in what can be a lottery of a race.

Astonishing successes yes but every one later found out as fraud. Global hero feted by world leaders yes but only as a consequence of achievements acquired by cheat. LA was worthless meat unless he could win. He knew it, his backers knew it. There would be no fairy tale to come unless he could claim a maillot jaune in Paris. He would have been consigned to a career contesting petty performance bonuses "tooth and nail" as carrots in his pro contract.

If you consider his extraordinary physiological response to PEDs as his "superhuman gift" then I can agree to that with some reservation. But none of us will ever know if Dr. Ferrari had every team member on the same program to achieve identical results. IMO LA was too cunning to allow any team member to approach his watts/kg output so his own targets would always be in superior to what the rest of his teammates were doped to produce. As said by Frankie Andreau in the documentary "You never knew what they were on". Likewise with Dr. Ferrari under exclusive contract to LA, there is no way to know if even in a free-for-all doping utopia if LA would have been the best rider.

Ultimately, it didn't matter. The game was fixed and the adoring masses bought into the fairy tale hook, line and sinker.

BTW, I don't think I'm beating a dead horse because I haven't read my views posted here in any prior discussion. However, posting a dead horse graphic, *THAT* has been done.

jimmy-moots
11-12-2014, 08:47 PM
No... he was definitely superhuman. But you need to be more than superhuman to win among superhumans...... that's why everyone doped.

that frankly is ridiculous...do a little research about the effects of these things on different folks...you may be very surprised...all this stuff is documented...it really is not the case at all that "everyone was doped...he was...so the best guy won" pr job that is going around via the uneducated/lance lovers (take your pick these days)...sure everyone was doped...not much of a question there...but what you were seeing was that some reacted to it differently and became winners when pretty much they would have been donkeys...lance never would have won a single tour if he had been clean and everyone else had been as well...no way in hell...the guy never had the numbers otherwise...that is a scientific fact...let's here it for science...

The key here is that everyone has a haemocrit level, and the UCI said 50 was the max you could rock out with.

This artificial ceiling meant that those who had a natural haemocrit of 45 had less to gain than someone who rolled around with their haemocrit tapping out at 39,40,41.

It also meant that those who were poor recover-ers genetically could get a boost whereas those who were good recoverer-ers weren't getting as much benefit.

Obviously a very low brow look at the way the human body works but I figure it conveys the concept.

I don't know Lance's numbers compared against his rivals and unless someone else does, then this is all a bit of a silly discussion to have. Actually it is just a silly discussion to have, unless you just want something to talk about while having a beer... cause nobody is going to be right at the end of the day, its purely theoretical and the tone in this thread verges on handwringing.

Dead Man
11-26-2014, 10:04 AM
Bootleg copy

http://www.thevideo.me/jq4aocmlo3tz

Click the "x" before you click the play button

Having now watched it... yup, exactly as I predicted.

cdn_bacon
11-26-2014, 10:13 AM
Bootleg copy

http://www.thevideo.me/jq4aocmlo3tz

Click the "x" before you click the play button

Having now watched it... yup, exactly as I predicted.

thanks for that share!