Top tube internal brake cable routing (steel frame)--does it rattle?

[54ny77]

Anyone with a steel frame with internal cable routing? Do you get rattles from the housing bouncing around? I'm looking at that as an option on a custom steel frame and it's been ages since I had a frame with that kind of setup. If I recall, it used to bounce around and drove me bonkers.

Would be interested to hear others' experience. Thanks.

[jmoore]

When I first got my Bedford it rattled and buzzed a little bit. Kelly said to cover the internal cable with a thin Delrin cable sleeve. That got rid of it on all but the worst roads.

When the bike came back from the painters and was rebuilt, the buzz is totally gone. So there must have been something to the way it was assembled that caused it.

With that, internal routing is the only way to go.

[druptight]

I have one with top tube internal routing that is a frame I brazed up myself, my 2nd, and I managed to get the brass tube running through the top tube to not touch the sides of the top tube, never once heard a rattle. I can't speak to the rattle on a frame that might not have a metal tube running through the top tube.

I'll tell you, it was a feat getting it to stay away from the wall - equal parts sweat, blood, and pure luck. I'd hope people who do this for a living have a more repeatable process to keep it clear of the inside walls in a timely fashion - and based on my experience whatever they charge for this extra work isn't enough. There's a good post about the process over next door where Mr. Zanc weighed in which helped me immensely in getting this done:

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/IMG_1295.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/IMG_1295.jpg.html)

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/IMG_1296.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/IMG_1296.jpg.html)

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/IMG_1297.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/IMG_1297.jpg.html)

From what I understand the rattle w/r/t a brazed in brass/stainless tube results from shoddy craftsmanship on the part of the frame maker allowing the tube running through the top tube to remain touching the wall - then as you hit bumps it rattles. Not sure sure about rattles where there's no internal tube, or where the full distance isn't covered with a solid piece of housing - i.e. each jet port is a cable stop. Might be worth discussing with your framebuilder which type of internal routing they plan to use.

[54ny77]

jmoore--how is the brake "feel" of internal routing vs., say, the more common stops w/open cable along bottom of top tube? is the brake feel crisp or mushy? i'd be guessing that more housing is more friction regardless of how well internal routing is set up inside the tube, but i'm talking out my arse and don't really know.

[JAGI410]

No rattles at all on my mass produced All-City Mr. Pink, which has the internal routing.

[happycampyer]

You're welcome to test ride my Sachs—it doesn't rattle and the brakes feel great.

[David Kirk]

There are a few ways this can be done and a few ways they can rattle.

There are three ways I know of to run the cable internally -

1) put two holes in the top tube and just run the brake housing full length in one hole and out the other - there is no internal tube connecting the two holes. Trek did this back in the day and I can still hear the housing buzzing against the inside of the top tube. This is never a good way to go.

2) put two holes in the top tube and run a piece of tubing between the two that is large enough to allow full length brake housing through. This set up can make noise if the brazed in tube is too close to the inner surface of the top tube and they buzz together or if the fit of the brake housing into the tube is loose leaving room for it to move.

3) put two holes in the top tube and run a piece of tubing between them just large enough for the inner cable to pass through with the outer housing stopping and starting at the two entrances to the top tube. These can make noise like the above if the inner tube touches the top tube but otherwise these tend to be pretty quiet.



It should be noted that running the cable internally compromises brake function to a degree as compared to running it on the outside of the tube and the only reason to do it is to give a super clean look to the top tube...........and this can be enough reason as long as the owner knows that there is a bit of compromise on friction, maintenance and performance with an internal set up as compared to a traditional external routing.

dave

[druptight]

I've got full housing running through mine, no noise, and no noticeable decline in braking power - mine are hooked up to mini-v's.

[FlashUNC]

My old, entry level Allez has option #3 that Mr Kirk outlined. Never noticed any buzzing in two decades of riding that thing.

[54ny77]

Bingo! Thanks Dave, that's what I had, a Trek that had exactly this configuration. Man that was years ago! Couldn't remember what frame it was when I started this thread but you reminded me. Drove me absolutely nuts back when I had it, but it was the nicest rig I could afford back then and the bike def. served its purpose.

[QUOTE=David Kirk;1647485]There are a few ways this can be done and a few ways they can rattle.

There are three ways I know of to run the cable internally -

1) put two holes in the top tube and just run the brake housing full length in one hole and out the other - there is no internal tube connecting the two holes. Trek did this back in the day and I can still hear the housing buzzing against the inside of the top tube. This is never a good way to go.

[madencbm]

Brake housing running through the top tube of my custom Glen Erickson fillet brazed. Absolutely no noise and I can't discern any compromise in braking.

[jmoore]

jmoore--how is the brake "feel" of internal routing vs., say, the more common stops w/open cable along bottom of top tube? is the brake feel crisp or mushy? i'd be guessing that more housing is more friction regardless of how well internal routing is set up inside the tube, but i'm talking out my arse and don't really know.

Brakes feel fine. No difference that I can tell. Never worried about being able to stop NOW!! if I needed to.

I will disagree that rattling is the result of shoddy workmanship. Mine buzzed for a bit and I'd say Kelly and crew know what they are doing. My guess is it had something small to do with the assembly. At any rate, it's gone.

Personally, I'd never spec a custom bike without internal tt routing. IMO, I think it just looks better with zero functional difference.

[rwsaunders]

I have a 25 year old Weigle that has internal rear brake cable routing and there are no rattles. I like the clean look as DK stated and I'd do it again if i were commissioning a frame. I like the look, and not having to deal with the donuts being evenly spaced is a bonus in my book too.

[David Kirk]

I feel the urge to add a little something about the compromise in braking with any internal set up.

When the bike is built with a simple external cable set up the amount of compressible housing used is kept to a minimum and the exposed part of the cable runs through air so there is no friction. This means that the brake system will have less friction and a more direct feel because unlike the housing the top tube to which the cable guides are attached won't compress under brake cable loads.

When an internal system is used it means that the cable is running on either housing (with a small amount of friction and compression) or it's running on an internal tube which will not compress but will still add some small amount of friction.

A well designed internal system can give very good performance that will have good braking feel and power and very few would be disappointed with it..........at the same time an external system will have less friction, less compression, and of course weigh a few grams less. Will the difference between the two be enough to notice or bother with for most people? No, I doubt it would. But can one measure the difference? Yes, certainly.

Internal or external brake routing is like most other choices - it involves some amount of compromise even if that amount if very small.

dave

[witcombusa]

Dave,

I much prefer external routing, clean, simple and all funtion. :banana:

[zap]

Not steel but Klein did a very good job back in the day. Brake cable in on the front right side of the tt and out the back left side. No cable housing used inside the tt and no rattles.

[Admiral Ackbar]

im not sure i would call the klein internal routing a good job. they are a total pain in the arse to re-cable

i have an older trek with internal routing for the rear brake thru the tt, uses full length housing, no rattles for me.

[pbarry]

The Merlin Ti Spectrums had this feature. 10-20 frames in each size run became Spectrums and had TT internal routing, (DK's method #2), special SP tops, and different welds.

Bending 1/4" Ti tubing along several different planes can be frustrating, but so rewarding when you were in the groove and every one came out smoothly. IIrc, all we had for a jig was a block of wood clamped in a vise with 5/16th holes drilled in it. Usually, lots of cursing, and some blood involved.

[fuzzalow]

I've only had internal routing for the rear brake on a production bike - a Columbus-era Cinelli SuperCorsa. It did not rattle and it was also easy to route a bare cable through with a fully enclosed tube. Slip the brake housing into the receptical stops in the top tube - no ferrules. Bare wire inside the tube. I raise this because this was a bog stock production frame and it was no problem.

FWIW I have had this option on many custom frame orders and I have always chosen standard external routing. I don't like the entry and exit line aesthetics of the cable housing imposed by the internal routing end fixtures.

[Lionel]

full housing internal routing on my Sachs and my Zank, no rattling.

[douglas]

My 90's era Colnago Master has full internal housing for the rear brake. No noise and the braking is fine.

[zap]

im not sure i would call the klein internal routing a good job. they are a total pain in the arse to re-cable



It is pretty simple. Disconnect rear brake cable, snip off crimped bit of cable, slip on proper length plastic cable liner, push through until that exits the front, tape in place then pull out brake cable. Reverse when installing new cable.

Repeat for the derailleur cables.

[miksibis]

It is pretty simple. Disconnect rear brake cable, snip off crimped bit of cable, slip on proper length plastic cable liner, push through until that exits the front, tape in place then pull out brake cable. Reverse when installing new cable.

Repeat for the derailleur cables.

oooh....where was this little chestnut of knowledge when I needed it most!

[sparky33]

Full housing run on my Weigle also cuz that's the way JPW does it. It works as it should.

Though I prefer external cabling because it's totally functional and easy. A sealed cable kit works if contamination is a concern.

I have a 25 year old Weigle that has internal rear brake cable routing and there are no rattles. I like the clean look as DK stated and I'd do it again if i were commissioning a frame. I like the look, and not having to deal with the donuts being evenly spaced is a bonus in my book too.

[blantonator]

My cannonade has two cable stops in the top tube, so there is no housing to go in the tube. It's a slight PITA to run the cable, but no housing or tubing to rattle and it's lighter and probably less friction. This is my vote.