Lets talk training

[stephenmarklay]

I know that are a lot of training experts on the forum and I am not one of them.

At 45 its been 5 years since I raced, and I basically laid off from biking except for casual riding for a couple years. This year I did get SOME good riding in and got in ok shape. I mostly road 50-60 miles and no more than 70. I did ride as much as 150 miles a week some weeks and did hill intervals on some days. I am no where near great condition but I have a starting point.

This winter I am going to get back into racing form (I hope.)

My problem is time. Last go around (2009) in the winter I racked up a lot of base miles on the trainer. It was not ideal however since I was very overtrained. I think my health suffered and my sleep was terrible. I had a coach and I made the mistake of following the plan no matter what. It was my fault not the coach.

I am wondering what is the best way to maximize my progress but with less time.
I can train for a couple of hours on the week days and a bit more on the weekends but not the 3-5 hours I did back then. I will also be training with power which I did not do last time.

Should I interject some intervals in my base training? I felt like I had too little power coming out of my build back then. My first event was a TT and hill climb and I stunk bad.

Later however, my form came around and I was able do well in a larger local event in Cat 4/5. My goal is to race a bit and do some Gran Fondo and fast century riding

I would like to see this thread grow and become a useful resource for forum members too :)

[dekindy]

I am doing the TrainerRoad Intermediate Build 1 Plan. 2-1 hour workouts during the week and a 1.5 hour workout on weekends. 3.5 hours per week total. TR has workout plans for every goal so get a compatible trainer, Ant+ dongle and speed or speed/cadence sensor and optional heart monitor and train with virtual power; or better yet, get a Wahoo Kickr and train with power.

You can also get Chris Carmichael's Time Crunched Cyclist book and use that as a guide.

[shovelhd]

Before you start planning workouts you should take a look at your schedule and pick when you will start your racing season, which races will be A races, and when it will end. That will frame when to start base, how many build cycles, peaks, breaks, etc. Be realistic. Don't plan on doing 50 races when you will end up doing 20.

Once you know the schedule you can work your way back and build your training from there. Did you track your riding this year along with power? Do you know where you stand right now with TSB/CTL? You may need rest before you start.

Just a couple things to think about.

How many hours per week are you allocating for training and racing? What kind of racing do you want to focus on?

[stephenmarklay]

I am doing the TrainerRoad Intermediate Build 1 Plan. 2-1 hour workouts during the week and a 1.5 hour workout on weekends. 3.5 hours per week total. TR has workout plans for every goal so get a compatible trainer, Ant+ dongle and speed or speed/cadence sensor and optional heart monitor and train with virtual power; or better yet, get a Wahoo Kickr and train with power.

You can also get Chris Carmichael's Time Crunched Cyclist book and use that as a guide.

Thanks Dekindy. I am set up with Trainer Road and a KK trainer. I also have ALL of the Sufferfest vids just waiting to put me in a world of hurt. It takes a lot of self control to not just hammer away on this until I drop to the floor and eventually wither on the vine :)

[stephenmarklay]

Before you start planning workouts you should take a look at your schedule and pick when you will start your racing season, which races will be A races, and when it will end. That will frame when to start base, how many build cycles, peaks, breaks, etc. Be realistic. Don't plan on doing 50 races when you will end up doing 20.

Once you know the schedule you can work your way back and build your training from there. Did you track your riding this year along with power? Do you know where you stand right now with TSB/CTL? You may need rest before you start.

Just a couple things to think about.

How many hours per week are you allocating for training and racing? What kind of racing do you want to focus on?

Thanks Shovelhd. You were one of the experts I was referring too :cool:

I was not riding with power this year or actually with an HR monitor and even computer at times. Things tapered with weather so over the last month I have done short intervals (Tabata) and doing general fitness stuff. So no TSB/CTL.

I did do my FTP test on the trainer a couple of days ago so I have my current reference.

I will likely be able to train 10 hours or less during the off season and maybe a bit more come race season.

I am starting base now which is actually one week before I started base 5 years ago. I still have my plan from them as a reference. As Dekindy said Trainer Road does have a nice array of plans. I was thinking about the traditional base but the sweet spot base looks enticing.

I guess the question is if I train only 10 hours a week am I better off with a higher output sweet spot training or slower but not optimally long traditional base?

[redir]

I always did the traditional LSD winter training and then ramp up the Intervals in spring and that worked well for me. The good news about you is that you have the discipline. If you are over training in the winter that's a good problem to have. At 45 years myself and 20 years racing I tend to avoid the rollers and trainers and prefer to sit on the couch.

[shovelhd]

I should not be considered an expert but I will gladly help you where I can. Can you be effective in Cat4 at 10 hours/week training and racing? It depends on what your goal races are, but if chosen wisely, absolutely. Without question. Now if your plan is to do a half dozen stage races then maybe not. Your age, base fitness level, any health issues, any anticipated breaks or disruptions in training due to life events, all these things play into it. There is no simple answer. For a point of reference, not comparison (don't fall into that trap), my racing age is 57 this year, Cat 2, and I am competitive on the national level in my age group on 7-12 hours per week. But, and this is a big but, I do not do time trials, I do not do stage races, I do not race more than one day per weekend, and I race primarily criteriums with a few road races thrown in, and I race up often in the younger Masters fields and P/1/2.

I am not a big fan of training by video so I can't help you there.

[earlfoss]

Some general advice that I give to people when they ask about getting back into structured training whether they end up becoming a client or not.

Look at your week, how your life is arranged, and add up the number of hours that you'll be able to hit week in and week out. This number you should be able to do without putting yourself or your family through stress. Subtract an hour or two from that, and that is a realistic number.

I am guessing that you won't be training 10 hrs+ per week which means that the majority of your rides will need to be done at higher aerobic levels. That's not to say there isn't room for fun easy stuff, but generally you'll want to be riding with a purpose if the goal is race fitness.

If you train with power, start with a 20 minute test. The Sufferfest Rubber Glove video is great for that. It's handy for pacing and motivation. From there find your FTP number. Google how to calculate that, and set your zones. I use the Coggan 6 zone way of doing things.

To improve on limited hours, you'll need to do some work just below and above that FTP number. I try to do 2 days/week of intensity. One day is something like the 4-5 x 5-6 min @ 105% FTP, and the other day can be either VO2 (2 min-ish stuff) or sweet spot @ 97% FTP for 20 min +.

The rest of the time I filled in with Z2.

My typical week was like this:

Monday: Off/easy
Tuesday: 4 x 5 min (short and sweet workout. Warm up, intervals and then off bike and recover)
Wednesday: Z2
Thursday: Sweet spot, short focused session. ~1hr
Friday: Easy/off
Saturday: Shorter ride with Z2/Z3
Sunday: Longer ride with Z2/Z1

Before I got a coach that was my GENERAL template for training. It worked really well and I took rest as needed but I really buckled down on consistency. The plan also allowed some flexibility in planning and wasn't a static thing. Roll with the punches life throws at you.

I hit my hours per week every week for the first 6 weeks to get that volume in my system and then I started to see some real gains.

There is an endless amount of stuff to share on this subject, but I'd suggest approaching a coach and even paying to have a consultation session to at least get some ideas based on where you are now and what goals you wish to reach.

BTW, power meters are very handy but if you don't have one, HR can work too. Many a talented cyclist has used HR or even just perceived exertion to make gains but on a limited amount of time I suggest at least capturing HR.

[shovelhd]

In case I wasn't clear, I count racing time as training time. I agree that a consultation with a coach is worthwhile whether you go with them or not.

[stephenmarklay]

Thanks again guys.

Earlfoss, I like the idea of your program. I for sure can do two longer rides 2-3 max per week and UP TO 2 during weekdays. That mean I start riding at 6am. Thats about 10-12 hours in 5 days. More than that and 3+ hour trainer rides is too much mentally and likely physically and schedule wise.

I did do the rubber glove actually. I am using the nifty simulated power with trainer road on my Kurt Kinetic. It seems to be pretty reliable but a tad high in real world terms. I tested 323 FTP which is likely more like 293. At least its a basis. I will retest this each month. I did just order a Powertap too so I will get that set up when it comes in.

At this point I will be a strong rider if I lose half my bodyweight :)

TrainerRoad does a good job of laying out workouts according to your goal and FTP. I also printed the Cogen zones and wrote my exact numbers on it to keep track.

One thing I noticed from before vs now is my FTHR was 171 and now 163 based on the test I did. I actually wonder if it was ever 171 really. My coach used a computrainer to set up my training zones. Having said that my max HR is around 180. It was then and it is now. Getting my heart in the 170's is working hard and never felt like my FTHR. Who knows.

[shovelhd]

Heart rate is so variable. It is dependent on so many outside factors. Under stress it can be normal to have an elevated heart rate when you are not in race shape.

[carpediemracing]

If you're not doing road races and time trials then you should be okay with very few hours a week. 10-12 hours is a lot for me, and in fact I'd have a hard time doing that many hours regularly. I'd simply be too fatigued.

Disclaimer: on a different forum someone respectfully said "listen to what cdr says about tactics, don't listen to him about training."

My Strava is here (http://app.strava.com/athletes/143064). It lists every ride I did since sometime in April of 2012. You'll see that in 2014 I raced Tuesdays when I could, sometimes trained one day a week other than that, and raced on the weekend when possible. In that time I've been a sometimes competitive Cat 3, overweight for sure, undertrained for sure, but able to affect the outcome of a decent number of races. In 2010 (https://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?compid=31337&all=1), with about 8-10 hours a week, I upgraded to Cat 2 based on results earned by June of that year, and in fact I stopped going for places for the most part because I thought I'd get forcibly upgraded. After trying to help a teammate for the second part of the season I upgraded because I thought we'd have a child the next year, and I didn't know if I'd ever be able to upgrade again. I downgraded in 2011. Child arrived 2012.

With my 2014 season consisting of mainly 1-2 hours a week I tried to salvage what I could by either racing for very specific goals ("I want to do a field sprint") or by trying to help teammates.

Field sprint goal race here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkLKxv7fqhs). There are others that I will be uploading, from this year, where I showed up hoping to do a good field sprint, no matter what else happened in the race.

As far as helping teammates… I'm in the middle of uploading some clips from this year that relate to me helping my Cat 4 teammates in the local Cat 3-4-5 Tuesday Night Races. The ones I tried to help ended up all Cat 3s by Aug this year. I did the B race because I could, because I wasn't training (the Tuesday race was often my only ride of the week), and because I could get much more accomplished by helping 5 or 10 Cat 4s for the duration of a race rather than trying to hang in the P123 field for 5 or 10 minutes. Still I got shelled a few times in the Bs.

This is a post (http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2014/05/racing-ccap-tuesday-night-race-may-27.html) about how the team applied basic tactics in the B race, completely turning around their racing from the prior week.

The first decent race is here in this clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9n4DvYG7Pg), where one teammate wins. The second clip is here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaXskjgLy8o), where another one does. They return the favor in the third one, which I still have yet to publish. I don't have a clip of the Cat 4 team "before" as it's a bit embarrassing, but I'm thinking of making one if it helps illustrate the point of just how wasteful/tiring poor tactics can be. The guys went from being absolutely out of the picture at 5 to go to being in absolute command of the race. Okay, sure, they were slightly more fit (how much fitness do you gain in a week or three?), but the main gains were from applying their fitness better.

There were still racers that "didn't get it" (a teammate's words) but the ones that did executed well.

At any rate I think you'll be fine. Work on fitness, think about how you race, and you shouldn't have any problems.

[carpediemracing]

My w/kg is a bit poor also. I think watts for coefficient of drag is more significant. I don't know my CdA but I'm sure it's reasonably low, and in a sprint I can get to a good speed so I know I have a good power to drag ratio for sprints.

Currently 79 kg (175 lbs), FTP tested at 200w recently. 220w when I upgraded to Cat 2, and I was 70 kg (155 lbs) that year.

I am very dense (haha) and I have short legs so I present less frontal area than other 175 lbs racers or even other 5'7" racers. I'm not muscular, I'm fat, so it's not like I'm a super powerful and lean 175. At 155 I was realistically in the 12-14% body fat range. Now I'm probably 25+%.

Relating to drag… If you have a more upright position there is a lot of potential gain in getting lower and/or longer on the bike. I helped another Cat 4, a friend and teammate, with his fit. He went from not quite having it to win a Tues B race to winning three in a row as well as placing 3rd in a season ending target A race. Like tactics this was simply applying fitness better, not getting more fit. Equipment remained unchanged, except for fit related stuff, but he did better and reported he felt much stronger/faster immediately. No powermeter so no numbers for proof.

[HenryA]

When can you ride outdoors fairly consistently? When does your race season start? How many times a month will you race?

Knowing I don't know your answers yet, I'd start pretty soon with a core strength and weight program. Get some trainer time over the winter, maybe three 2-hour sessions a week. Just ride to keep loose.

Be sure to rest. (repeat this to yourself on a regular basis)

In my early 40s I could do pretty well if I did weights over the winter and rode gently until February let up of winter. In January I'd start increasingly brutal trainer sessions. Longest one was about 3.5 hours of hell. Your ass will ache from that. Hardest ones were intervals like 3 X 10 minutes at max with 5 minutes in between. Then worked down to 30 second sprint X 10 with 3 minutes in between. I based intensity off heart rate.

By the first week of March I was going pretty good. Then off to Florida for a couple of races. When I got back I'd hit some spirited 250 mile weeks with easy rest weeks in between. By mid May I was on top and could get by on 150 miles a week which included events, nearly all crits with a few circuit and road races thrown in. That is racing almost every weekend and 2 races much of the time.

You need to rest a lot if you do this. And assuming you have a job and family its pretty hard to do it all.

Be sure to rest on a regular basis and just take off a few days if you feel bad or even just maybe don't feel good.

[stephenmarklay]

Lots of wisdom here.

I wish I knew my plan. I will start to formulate one based on some of the bigger races (well bigger is relative.)

I do want to do some road races. The last bigger one I did 5 years ago was a TT, A road race of about 60 miles on Saturday and then a shorter road race on Sunday that I won! Second for the weekend. Oh the memories :)

I also want to do some competitive centuries. Gran Fondo rides or whatever.

I need to cut 15 pounds but I should be ok for the length of time I have.

In the end I just want to have fun. I enjoy training. Its just who I am.

My training hours will absolutely be subject to fatigue. My barometer is sleep. If I don't sleep well I won't train well. Its really hard to tolerate the pain and metal toughness without it. I also know when I am over reaching my sleep goes down hill bad. Then I will take a break.

I did 2:15 today with on the start of a base program and I will see how it goes not putting anything in stone but for sure having structure.

[shovelhd]

Lots of wisdom here.

I wish I knew my plan. I will start to formulate one based on some of the bigger races (well bigger is relative.)

I do want to do some road races. The last bigger one I did 5 years ago was a TT, A road race of about 60 miles on Saturday and then a shorter road race on Sunday that I won! Second for the weekend. Oh the memories :)

Otherwise known as a stage race or omnium depending on how it was scored.

There's nothing wrong with just getting fit and going into the season with no plan. Sometimes the mental freedom can mean more than better fitness. It's all up to you.

I'm one that needs a plan for motivation. I need to see the brass ring at the end. Intermediate goals take on more meaning as I value consistency. I also look forward to breaks in the season. A short reward for the hard work done up to that point.

[Ti Designs]

My training program is a bit off the beaten path, but it's always reached the results I've wanted. I've been everything from a pure climber to a sprinter to a time trialist over the years, so I think I've learned a thing or two about building a specific program for my needs - sticking to that program is another story... Now I'm coaching, which means I need to all the skills to some degree.

My program starts in November with pedal stroke work on the trainer and strength work at the gym. Most people have a work ethic when it comes to cycling, if they're not putting out the watts, they feel they're not training. I have to question if sitting on the trainer for an hour now is going to do anything come next spring. I break cycling down into it's component parts and work each part individually. Pedal stroke is a major component of this - you can build efficiency and then add power, it doesn't work the other way around. Winter is also the right time to work on my spin. The combination of pedal stroke work and fixed gear riding gets me that, and it becomes the perfect tool for base mileage in a New England winter.

My coaching style has become one of "don't tell them more than they need to know" because order is a key element, and it's human nature to want to get to that next step. Even in my own training I don't look past base mileage yet. I know there are harder efforts ahead, I know what intervals feel like, I also have the greatest confidence that the program works. Each winter I'm the slow guy, getting dropped from group rides while I plod along in zone 3. Every spring I get fast again. My point here is to put together a full plan to get yourself the technique, the power and the endurance that you'll need for next season, then focus on what you need to do now.

[stephenmarklay]

My training program is a bit off the beaten path, but it's always reached the results I've wanted. I've been everything from a pure climber to a sprinter to a time trialist over the years, so I think I've learned a thing or two about building a specific program for my needs - sticking to that program is another story... Now I'm coaching, which means I need to all the skills to some degree.

My program starts in November with pedal stroke work on the trainer and strength work at the gym. Most people have a work ethic when it comes to cycling, if they're not putting out the watts, they feel they're not training. I have to question if sitting on the trainer for an hour now is going to do anything come next spring. I break cycling down into it's component parts and work each part individually. Pedal stroke is a major component of this - you can build efficiency and then add power, it doesn't work the other way around. Winter is also the right time to work on my spin. The combination of pedal stroke work and fixed gear riding gets me that, and it becomes the perfect tool for base mileage in a New England winter.

My coaching style has become one of "don't tell them more than they need to know" because order is a key element, and it's human nature to want to get to that next step. Even in my own training I don't look past base mileage yet. I know there are harder efforts ahead, I know what intervals feel like, I also have the greatest confidence that the program works. Each winter I'm the slow guy, getting dropped from group rides while I plod along in zone 3. Every spring I get fast again. My point here is to put together a full plan to get yourself the technique, the power and the endurance that you'll need for next season, then focus on what you need to do now.

Thanks TIDesigns. I appreciate your feedback. Funny the local coach I used had a similar philosophy to you. Don't tell them too much... I think that comes with experience. For me it was not great since I am always reading, thinking scheming etc. Having said that what he asked me to do worked and I think was a solid prescription. If I do indeed get in shape and race I will join his team again.

I think I have decided to bite the bullet and do a "normal base" program for the next 12 weeks. I am going to use TrainerRoad traditional base -High Volume.
Since I don't have years of base like you or those that have been out racing I think getting in some pedal time over the winter can't hurt.

I will incorporate some stuff from my old program which had a lot of spin ups etc. I will do a lot of ILT and pedaling at higher than normal cadence as well. My hip flexors are weak so I will address that. Squares no more.

I may throw in a few Tabata intervals this month while the volume relatively low and riding 4 days (4x2:15, 4x2:30, 4x2:45, rest week)

It will be a bit of a bugger in January with 3 big weeks but its 3 weeks. I can do that. I will likely try a one week or so "training camp" a bit later as well.

I am doing straight training now. Full body movements, core etc. Not a lot of volume but rather intense. I carry a lot of muscle (for a cyclist) so I am not looking to build size but more strength. I also need to drop pounds not add them.