Wiggle Boycott

[kevinvc]

I first heard about this from a Twitter post. It seems that Anna Glowinski, a respected designer, has accused Wiggle.com of stealing one of her jersey designs. Bikebiz story here (http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/wiggle-faces-social-media-backlash-after-accusations-of-plagiarism/017031)

Some folks are calling for a boycott and the story is starting to go around social media. I have zero tolerance for the stealing of a person's work and small name artists / designers tend to deal with this a lot with little recourse. But in this instance, I'm not sure if it's completely cut and dried. Wiggle's design certainly has similarities to Anna's, but is not identical. Wiggle has a reputation for being a good retailer, primarily on-line, but I know nothing about their own product line. Interesting situation to be sure.

I'd post pictures of the two jerseys, but the only ones I've seen on-line are from the Bikebiz article and it seems wrong and ironic to use them without permission.

[Lewis Moon]

They also stole "Stairway to Heaven".

[nighthawk]

So weird. Just the other day I was grinding gravel with my buddy Snoop Dogg and he mentioned his friend Jason (http://www.mtv.co.uk/jason-derulo/videos/wiggle-ft-snoop-dogg) was upset that Wiggle ripped him off, too.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[RedRider]

I encourage the boycotting of any and all UK cycling e-tailers.

[AngryScientist]

this gets tricky.

without knowing more, i could make the assumption that Wiggle was working with various designers on a loosely themed "star" design. perhaps they just chose one designer over another. realistically, how many ways are there to have a jersey with stars all over it? sorry, but i dont see the outrage, just strikes me as the give-and-take of the design business.

[illuminaught]

this gets tricky.

without knowing more, i could make the assumption that Wiggle was working with various designers on a loosely themed "star" design. perhaps they just chose one designer over another. realistically, how many ways are there to have a jersey with stars all over it? sorry, but i dont see the outrage, just strikes me as the give-and-take of the design business.

Yep...

[kevinvc]

this gets tricky.

without knowing more, i could make the assumption that Wiggle was working with various designers on a loosely themed "star" design. perhaps they just chose one designer over another. realistically, how many ways are there to have a jersey with stars all over it? sorry, but i dont see the outrage, just strikes me as the give-and-take of the design business.

I agree. It's easy to create plausible scenarios that support either side. I am curious to see how it plays out.

[shovelhd]

Yes, the design is simple enough that Wiggle could have come up with it on their own. However, the first paragraph tells the story. She met with Wiggle, showed them designs, they tried to do business but couldn't close a deal, and then Wiggle comes out with something that looks a lot like her design. I'd like to hear the Wiggle side of the story.

[tumbler]

After looking at both, I don't see an obvious case of theft. Her design may well have inspired their final product, but this happens everyday and is just part of life. Look at music, clothing, restaurants, cars, etc. If her design included some sort of unique shape, I might feel differently, but scattered stars are just too common.

[rnhood]

Hopefully this will not affect their prices. They are a first rate retailer with great prices. In fact several of the UK cycling retailers offer great prices and service. Of course the dollar being strong right now helps.

[Admiral Ackbar]

LOL WUT

this is ridiculous. those jerseys don't really look alike ... at all

..okay they both have stars. but seriously, this is insanely dumb

[velodadi]

Redrider: Care to elaborate?

V

[krhea]

Redrider: Care to elaborate?

V

Click the link in his signature and perhaps you'll understand his "view"...

[johnmdesigner]

I encourage the boycotting of any and all UK cycling e-tailers.

No problem. Just price match Ribble/Wiggle on a Dura Ace 9000 group.

[johnmdesigner]

I really don't know British design patent design very well but in this country a design patent for graphics is a rather difficult thing to protect.
If it were that easy then design would have stopped with Betsy Ross.

[fuzzalow]

I encourage the boycotting of any and all UK cycling e-tailers.

Your discontent is misdirected as is your proposed solution. The inconsistencies in global product pricing cannot be attributed to the end-customer. Nor can there also be fault given to the end-customer for availing to themselves the most attractive pricing for goods.

Your suggestion flies in the face of reality. Seek redress in a manner where it might actually serve your purpose.

[nighthawk]

I think y'all are taking mister RedRider's comment a little too seriously, sheesh.

[MattTuck]

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/images/items/large/TWI/TWI001P/WHI.jpg

One of many jerseys with stars....


I've heard though, and I don't know if this is true, that Wiggle is somewhat of a gray market dealer and that their product doesn't always have a clean provenance... that, to me, is more of a reason to boycott them -- if you consider it wrong to undercut prices because you're not really buying from the manufacturer, and thus not subject to MSRP... I mean, you can have a theoretical debate about the good/harm of manufacturer dictated pricing, but still -- if a foreign company is taking dollars away from local shops because they're not allowed to sell below MSRP, ordering from them is punishing the good guys and rewarding the the rule breakers.

I don't shop them anyway, but I have a hard time seeing a design that was clearly copied. IMO, I prefer the wiggle design.

[Seramount]

I just placed my first order with Wiggle...so, I'm not boycotting them until I see how the transaction goes.

as far as the jersey design thing...meh. find a real issue to crusade...

[johnniecakes]

Actually I am more of a Chain Reaction kinda guy. Never tried Wiggle or Ribble but certainly would not hesitate

[Burnette]

Wiggle: as has already been shown in earlier posts, it’s a pretty vague design proposal that anybody could have come up with and seem to copy, it’s just a freakin’ field of stars for cyrin’ out loud.
Wiggle probably came to their senses and realized that it wasn’t worth paying someone to design such a jersey and let Bob in shipping and receiving design it.
Anna Glowinski: looks like others have taken to social media in her service, so I can’t blame her for that part, but if she thinks she was done wrong, then that’s on her. Know your hustle and learn from what didn’t pan out. You didn’t get a customer (Wiggle), find out why they didn’t choose you and try to reengage them for future work instead of accusing them of stealing a super basic design that my daughter could have came up with.
Social Media: who cares, you no life shut ins. I woud wager that most on this list aren’t even Wiggle customers, much less being actual cyclist. These lists are like chain letters of yore, you may have been added to it involuntary and folks with nothing going on paste and blindly send it on to their “group”.
Super great prices and good service, Wiggle will have absolutely nothing to fear from this.
To the contrary, in a perverse way, it may even get them more eyes on their site. I would buy from them, they have a pretty good rep.

[velodadi]

You're right Nighthawk. I have no issue with what RedRider said after checking out his website.

V

[fuzzalow]

I think y'all are taking mister RedRider's comment a little too seriously, sheesh.

I could have taken Red Rider's comments as humor based on the sheer absurdity of what was proposed, so no I didn't miss that possibility. My response was as cut 'n dried and as clinical and textbook as I could make it to play off the festering emotionalism of Red Rider's blurted response. Nuthin' like pitting his economic interests against my own and expecting me to do what's right for him, huh?

I know, much too dry a take for some, sheesh even for someone like you perhaps. Don't worryboudit. It's not meant for everyone.

I use Ribble for a lotta stuff. They do a great job. As far as the OP concerning Wiggle: IMO the designer needs to come up with a more defined and unique branding as far as designs before making a claim to design theft - a design element doesn't make a design.

[DRZRM]

I'm just using a cell phone screen, but the wiggle jersey looks like a flag derived "stars and bars" theme, not so similar to her purple star themed design to my eye, certainly not enough for me to support a boycott.

As for RR's comment, seemed like a joke, why would anyone need such a serious interpretation?

[pbarry]

Tough one here. Have many friends in the fashion, design, and construction design/build industries. After hearing many anecdotes, the best approach is to sell yourself and your portfolio. Going any further without a contract kills the deal, usually, and leads to a knock-off of a presentation made to the client..

Wiggle dances on the edge of legality/propriety. I've never purchased a new group, but understand the allure of their pricing. Going into business with them would be dicey at best. :eek:

[cash05458]

I had to chuckle when I saw the thread title as I have been meaning to do a wiggle thread on customer service and what has been going on via an order they lost just recently...will make it another thread...but I can only say, they seem like a very confused company given my recent dealings with them over this lost order and a refund...

[elong8]

But they just got the Columbus Minimalist 1" carbon fork I've been dying to get. So maybe I'll start after that.

[jlwdm]

I could have taken Red Rider's comments as humor based on the sheer absurdity of what was proposed, so no I didn't miss that possibility. My response was as cut 'n dried and as clinical and textbook as I could make it to play off the festering emotionalism of Red Rider's blurted response. Nuthin' like pitting his economic interests against my own and expecting me to do what's right for him, huh?

I know, much too dry a take for some, sheesh even for someone like you perhaps. Don't worryboudit. It's not meant for everyone.

...

You have gone off the deep end again.

Jeff

[jlwdm]

I don't see many of either of the jerseys selling well.

Jeff

[Llewellyn]

Wiggle dances on the edge of legality/propriety. I've never purchased a new group, but understand the allure of their pricing. Going into business with them would be dicey at best. :eek:

That's a bold claim to make and possibly skating around the edges of defamation. But I'm not a lawyer.

Just for the record, I'm a Chain Reaction/Ribble person but have used Wiggle occasionally and wouldn't hesitate to use them again

[oldpotatoe]

I encourage the boycotting of any and all UK cycling e-tailers.

hear hear!!

Geee, a 'customer' getting indignant about a US retailer that doesn't like the grey market in UK 'retailers'...I enjoyed the times when a customer, after buying a frame, would come in with the box from the UK..and find out the 'stuff' wasn't what he thought he ordered, or something crumped early on..then gets angry with ME for not warranting or swapping for the correct front der or BB cups..oh well...

One recently, Jim tells me..Record EPS..battery fails..from UK. Campagnolo NA will warranty(Vecchio's has a great relationship with Campag NA and this customer-on a C-59..also bought online, I built it, but payed the labor freely). BUT this time, the customer whines about shipping to SoCal and back to CO, AND labor to reinstall AND time delay..

No good deed goes unpunished.

[bewheels]

What none of us knows is what conversations took place when the designer and client met. If the designer showed them and talked to them about using a 'star' theme and then the client goes off and does it on their own, that is problematic.
If the client came to the designer with a 'star' theme concept, the designer has no case.

Whether it has been done before is not as relavent as the concept/direction in this case. Designer get paid for their ideas as much as the skill to pull them off.

[bontie]

Well, some might argue wiggle is the devil. I am one of them. They keep sending me Haribos to make me change my mind, I refuse.

[ultraman6970]

Well just to start probably the girl was not even born when these other teams were moving around... dont see the problem, unless she patent something like that I doubt she has like a lot of arguments. Probably the designer doesnt even know who this woman is at all just to start, not even talk about wiggle aswell.

About the boycott? well... potato is right because those big retailers at the UK are taking a lot of of buying force off the US market but honestly... do you guys think people will stop buying from them? I doubt it. Probably the girl is thinking that something like what happened with spech a few months back will happen and I dont see that's happening too, not that wiggle is telling her to close her shop or anything like that. At least she is getting her "starlish" designs out, looks like she likes to put stars to everything.

https://velocio.cc/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/mottateam84giro.jpg

http://cdn.cycling-jersey-collection.com/images/2013-12-19-pepsi-cola-fanini-gsg-1988-team-jersey-maillot-trikot.jpg

[fuzzalow]

You have gone off the deep end again.

Jeff

HaHa! You could be right about that. It wasn't the first time and it won't be the last. I can respect your directness as opposed to the mealy-mouthed hesitancy as expressed by certain y'alls.

I made a riposte to Red Rider's post that fell flat. If doing that to you means going off the deep end, that's OK with me. Goin' off the deep end is not as simple and as easy as it looks. :) But I'd rather be doin' that than splish-splashing at the shallow end of the pool.

hear hear!!

Geee, a 'customer' getting indignant about a retailer that doesn't like the grey market in UK 'retailers'...I enjoyed the times when a customer, after buying a frame, would come in with the box from the UK..and find out the 'stuff' wasn't what he thought he ordered, or something crumped early on..then gets angry with ME for not warranting or swapping for the correct front der or BB cups..oh well...

One recently, Jim tells me..Record EPS..battery fails..from UK. Campagnolo NA will warranty(Vecchio's has a great relationship with Campag NA and this customer-on a C-59..also bought online, I built it, but payed the labor freely). BUT this time, the customer whines about shipping to SoCal and back to CO, AND labor to reinstall AND time delay..

No good deed goes unpunished.

No, I'm not the least bit idignant about it at all, if your comment refers to my riposte. That retailer can whine about it all they want, it still won't put the genie back in the bottle.

Your anecdote about lame customers and their screw ups with UK e-outlets is just an anecdote about a lame customer crying to Vecchio's about fixing their screw up. They didn't know what they were doing or what it involved so that 'customer' got what they deserved.

Vecchio's did what they always do as demanded by their own standard of excellence. Customers will be as varied and as infuriating as customers can be. Oy, retail!

The consequences and downside of dealing in the UK retail channel are no secret to most readers of this forum. "You pays your (lesser) money and you takes your chances". 'Chances' here being a relative term here as most of the UK retailers are usually reliable. But if things go astray I am certainly not crying about it and stamping my feet at a LBS to fix my screwup for free and at right now this instant. And I'd wager that most cyclists that are knowledgable in sourcing bike components globally are not anywhere as lame as that dolt customer in Vecchio's with busted Campy-UK hardware.

[RedRider]

Your discontent is misdirected as is your proposed solution. The inconsistencies in global product pricing cannot be attributed to the end-customer. Nor can there also be fault given to the end-customer for availing to themselves the most attractive pricing for goods.

Your suggestion flies in the face of reality. Seek redress in a manner where it might actually serve your purpose.

I clearly forgot to put the "wink" ;) at the end of my comment. Those that know me understand that I have a brick and mortar, full service, bike shop in Upstate NY.

[johnmdesigner]

hear hear!!

Geee, a 'customer' getting indignant about a US retailer that doesn't like the grey market in UK 'retailers'...I enjoyed the times when a customer, after buying a frame, would come in with the box from the UK..and find out the 'stuff' wasn't what he thought he ordered, or something crumped early on..then gets angry with ME for not warranting or swapping for the correct front der or BB cups..oh well...

One recently, Jim tells me..Record EPS..battery fails..from UK. Campagnolo NA will warranty(Vecchio's has a great relationship with Campag NA and this customer-on a C-59..also bought online, I built it, but payed the labor freely). BUT this time, the customer whines about shipping to SoCal and back to CO, AND labor to reinstall AND time delay..

No good deed goes unpunished.

"The inconsistencies in global product pricing cannot be attributed to the end-customer. Nor can there also be fault given to the end-customer for availing to themselves the most attractive pricing for goods"

I think Fuzzalow summed up the situation pretty well. If I only had his clarity of thought and way with words perhaps I could afford to buy all my suits from The Saville Row.:)

Campagnolo and Shimano make it very clear (as mud) that they may/may not honor a warranty on a product purchased outside the US. If they wanted to discourage US customers from buying overseas they should simply adjust their pricing strategy. Refusing to honor a warranty on a defective item because it wasn't obtained in the customer's home country is to enter into a state of denial that doesn't say much for their integrity. It also puts the dealer at a disadvantage.

The only time I ever had a problem with a component was a SRAM shifter (purchased from an authorized US dealer) that exploded. It took many e-mails and 6 weeks to get it replaced and when it arrived it was not in original packaging but appeared to be a "take-off".

On the other hand when a Look pedal purchased on Ebay exploded I contacted their sales rep and sent them the broken one. I received a brand new pair in factory packaging. They didn't care where I bought it only that it was defective and threatened their reputation.

I understand. You lament the passing of good old fashioned customer service. So do I. But there are really only 2 business models left for the brick and mortar bike industry. The "tailored suit" model where the customer is fitted, recommended, evaluated and followed up on. This is full retail US pricing with an emphasis on service and satisfaction. Sadly this is service that I cannot afford. The other model is the stand alone mechanic. I buy my parts elsewhere and he installs them and makes sure they work properly. He doesn't care where I got the parts only that it's the right part for the job and that it is working properly. He charges me accordingly.

Then there are all the other bike shops in my town. Why am I going to run all over hell looking for a specific thing only to be told it's not in stock and they might be able to order it if they felt like it, etc? This is the same attitude they had back in the 1980's when there were no other options for the consumer. Today one can go on-line and find the item, comparison shop for price and frequently have it shipped for free.

Recently I was in the market for a set of Dura Ace wheels. I comparison shopped at every on-line US retailer. Naturally the prices were high from the start. Some offered free shipping but slow boat UPS which suggested to me a beat-up box arriving after a week on the road. I looked at the UK dealers. The prices were much lower. One offered free shipping. I knew that if the box arrived crushed I would go through hell getting it replaced. I went for it anyway. The carton was delivered in 5 days in pristine condition. Wheels were true right out of the box.

I miss parts of old Time Square and the old Stuyvesant bike shop with the smell of grease and the Bottecchia frames hanging from the ceiling and the surly "I-don't- give -a- s**t" help. I miss the old hardware store in my hometown where the wooden floorboards creaked and you could buy nails by the pound. I really do miss it. But it's gone and there's nothing I can do about it.

[fuzzalow]

I clearly forgot to put the "wink" ;) at the end of my comment. Those that know me understand that I have a brick and mortar, full service, bike shop in Upstate NY.

No problem. I too can discern the tagline signature at the bottom of your posts so it is no mystery as to the grounding of your opinion. So what that you are a b&m? We both live in the same reality of what the marketplace is.

My LBS is Conrad's NYC and has been so for a long time. I balance what I do with them versus what I source from UK e-tailers. J does not gripe about internet sales because I'd guess it sounds quixoticly futile. Perhaps in this same gist was your "winkie" intended and I missed it.

[RedRider]

No problem. I too can discern the tagline signature at the bottom of your posts so it is no mystery as to the grounding of your opinion. So what that you are a b&m? We both live in the same reality of what the marketplace is.

My LBS is Conrad's NYC and has been so for a long time. I balance what I do with them versus what I source from UK e-tailers. J does not gripe about internet sales because I'd guess it sounds quixoticly futile. Perhaps in this same gist was your "winkie" intended and I missed it.

I don't lose sleep over the internet sellers and in particular the guys from the UK. They are just a part of the market that any LBS has to accept. I have a much different business model and target market. On the other hand, I certainly would not shed a tear if they stopped shipping into the US!
I'm originally from NYC. Conrads is a great shop and I remember when J was just the "kid" that handled the bike rentals!

[bluesea]

My last Chorus groupset from the UK, has a slight funk in the right shifter detent action. My usual and initial thought was "Oh well, might have to order a replacement". Fact is from groupsets alone ordered from the UK, this last Chorus set came in free+ when compared to the combined U.S. retail I would have paid.

[jr59]

the response;


Wiggle
31 mins ·
Anna Glowinski made us aware by email at 23:12 on Friday that she believes Wiggle has plagiarised a design from her range of women's cycling clothing she showed us in 2013.
The Wiggle colleague Anna e-mailed was on annual leave, though we did pick it up and respond to her at 17:32 on Saturday.
We confirmed that we are taking her claim very seriously and will be investigating fully on Monday. In the meantime Anna had shared her claim and frustration on Social Media. We at Wiggle would like to make it clear that we work to the highest ethical standards. If a designer has indeed used Anna's designs and passed them off as their own then we will be taking full disciplinary action and ensuring that Anna benefits from the design royalties. We too would be upset, if indeed this is what has happened. We will provide an update at 17:00 on Monday. The Wiggle Team.

[BumbleBeeDave]

If the facts in this BikeBiz story and the times listed in Wiggle's response are accurate, then this designer apparently finds out about Wiggle selling this jersey, emails them just before midnight on a Friday night, then takes to social media to savage them in public. She doesn't wait even until Monday to give the company a chance to respond. Instead she jumps on Facebook immediately and bashes them.

Being a photographer myself, and having seen how much photography is pirated online, I have a lot of sympathetic feelings for artists and designers who feel their work has been stolen. BUT, in this case it's difficult for me to have a lot of sympathy for THIS particular designer, given her display of typical troll behavior--starting the flame-fest on a Friday night when many trolls assume nobody will be minding the store till Monday, so their Internet roasting will have time to burst into flame and burn for the whole weekend.

As mods, we have had to deal with this same tactic here on Paceline. Somebody wants to start a fire and figures we will all be out riding all weekend, so they post something late Friday night. It's also a favorite trick for politicians--hand out the bad news press release at 5pm on a Friday. (5pm on Friday before a holiday weekend is reserved for REALLY embarrassing news!) I'd be a lot more understanding if she had actually given Wiggle time to respond before spitting bile in public.

And those stars? Something tells me there probably WAS some plagiarism, even if it was unconscious. That's been an issue many times, with George Harrison's copying of "He's So Fine" for "My Sweet Lord" being a good example. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Sweet_Lord)

But I just don't think it was outright piracy. The stars motif is so popular (as others have pointed out here) that it would be really hard to prove total originality. I've got a Pedro's jersey in my closet in red, covered with yellow stars, that's 15 years old.

BBD

[Ozrider]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10152828389825429&id=153257920428

[rounder]

hear hear!!

Geee, a 'customer' getting indignant about a US retailer that doesn't like the grey market in UK 'retailers'...I enjoyed the times when a customer, after buying a frame, would come in with the box from the UK..and find out the 'stuff' wasn't what he thought he ordered, or something crumped early on..then gets angry with ME for not warranting or swapping for the correct front der or BB cups..oh well...

One recently, Jim tells me..Record EPS..battery fails..from UK. Campagnolo NA will warranty(Vecchio's has a great relationship with Campag NA and this customer-on a C-59..also bought online, I built it, but payed the labor freely). BUT this time, the customer whines about shipping to SoCal and back to CO, AND labor to reinstall AND time delay..

No good deed goes unpunished.

With all due respects to Oldpotatoe who I respect and admire, I understand that bike shops are in business to provide service and make money and survive, and have had many good experiences with them.

We consumers, as bike enthusiasts, ride our bikes and knock ourselves out to make enough money so that we can afford to, if possible, ride the stuff we want. Both sides will probably agree that it ain't easy.

That said, I like riding my bike, but it is also fun to be on the endless search for the next part that will make my bike faster, lighter, cooler than would otherwise be possible with a mindless bike off the shelf from the local bike shop.

I have had good luck so far with wiggle and ribble and would buy from them again. Would I buy from Vecchios...are you kidding...I would love to visit the store.

[rphetteplace]

Similar story.....

A few years ago a bike company let's call them Sheero came to my buddies industrial design company for new wiz bang products. He came up with the yellow, polka dot, and green helmets for the Tour that have now been widely adopted.

Sheero thought it was a terrible idea until le Tour rolled out that year.