Question on possible tool business

[Rebel_Biker]

I have always found the forum members to be a great resource and a place where you can get honest opinions.

I am thinking about two possible business ventures, and would like to get opinions on them.

Trying to solve a problem of the cost of high quality specific tools for the home mechanic. And also, the price many LBS charge for some easy maintenance.

1. Thinking of engineering an all in one BB press and removal for all standards. High quality tool that would properly seat and remove, without the need to hammer out the PF BB. Enduro makes a good option but it is expensive and you need different tools for bb86, 92, and 30. Looking to be in the $75 - $100 range. Would you buy one of these?

2. Shop quality tool rental. The kit could include:
- BB tapping and facing
- HT Facing and Reaming
- All BB specific tools - such as the high quality campy cup removal and install tools
- Hub servicing (CK and others)
- any other shop quality tools you would need for your specific build

Would you pay $25, $50, or $75 for the rental of this kit for a weekend?

There could also be one offs for BB or HS press tools.

Thank you always for you advice/opinion.

[oldpotatoe]

I have always found the forum members to be a great resource and a place where you can get honest opinions.

I am thinking about two possible business ventures, and would like to get opinions on them.

Trying to solve a problem of the cost of high quality specific tools for the home mechanic. And also, the price many LBS charge for some easy maintenance.

1. Thinking of engineering an all in one BB press and removal for all standards. High quality tool that would properly seat and remove, without the need to hammer out the PF BB. Enduro makes a good option but it is expensive and you need different tools for bb86, 92, and 30. Looking to be in the $75 - $100 range. Would you buy one of these?

Maybe

2. Shop quality tool rental. The kit could include:
- BB tapping and facing
- HT Facing and Reaming
- All BB specific tools - such as the high quality campy cup removal and install tools
- Hub servicing (CK and others)
- any other shop quality tools you would need for your specific build

Would you pay $25, $50, or $75 for the rental of this kit for a weekend?

There could also be one offs for BB or HS press tools.

Thank you always for you advice/opinion.

I would worry the most about people renting these very expensive tools and then not knowing how to use them, killing tool and also frame, then blaming you.

Decent shops charge a fair amount for these 'easy' jobs requiring very expensive tools because the tools are very expensive. Same as any wrenching job, car, aircraft, motorcycle, etc...

Even shop level Park tools are big buck$.

[Rebel_Biker]

Thanks Pete
I agree with you, to some extent. We have to assume that the shop mechanic is qualified.

A highly reputable shop in NYC charged me $75 to press in a PF30 BB and a headset. It takes me less than 15 minutes to do this with the right tools. That $300 dollars an hour for the mechanic, depreciation of the tools, rent, and profit margin. I think that profit margin is a bit too much.

And not all bike shop mechanics are properly trained at frame prep and they are also in a hurry. I always over wrench my bikes, as they are mine.


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[oldpotatoe]

Thanks Pete
I agree with you, to some extent. We have to assume that the shop mechanic is qualified.

A highly reputable shop in NYC charged me $75 to press in a PF30 BB and a headset. It takes me less than 15 minutes to do this with the right tools. That $300 dollars an hour for the mechanic, depreciation of the tools, rent, and profit margin. I think that profit margin is a bit too much.

And not all bike shop mechanics are properly trained at frame prep and they are also in a hurry. I always over wrench my bikes, as they are mine.


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I agree. BUT the HS and BB press(I used a Park cup press) was about $100. BUT chasing a BB takes all of about 15 minutes but we charged $45. The cutters were about $300 per set(w/o handles, 3 sets of cutters, yes we had french cutters) and another $150 per year to sharpen.

WE charged about $15 per for HS and BB, if they didn't need to be prepped.

[ultraman6970]

I think the problem for renting taps for example is that a moron can mess up the tool big time and in that case you could lost it all before getting your money back.

[Rebel_Biker]

I agree. BUT the HS and BB press(I used a Park cup press) was about $100. BUT chasing a BB takes all of about 15 minutes but we charged $45. The cutters were about $300 per set(w/o handles, 3 sets of cutters, yes we had french cutters) and another $150 per year to sharpen.

WE charged about $15 per for HS and BB, if they didn't need to be prepped.

And if I had a Vecchios and you as a mechanic, I would probably not rent the tool set. But if I lived in NYC, which I did for over 15 years, I would rather do the work myself, especially is I am performing a complete bike prep. The variance of quality across shops in NYC was tremendous.

I think the quality of wrenching varies greatly across our country. Many of us are good mechanics and can wrench very well with the right tools.

The other thing you get is that you wrench it yourself and know exactly what was done and how it was done.

The customer has to take some liability that they will have some risk of performing the work improperly. This could be mitigated by including some excellent videos or links to excellent videos.

[avalonracing]

I like your first idea for the BB press for all standards. Of course they seem to have a new standard every 17 minutes.

[malcolm]

Generally speaking you pay skilled labor because they know how to do something you can't or don't want to do and because they have the proper tools in good repair to do the job correctly. The fact that it only takes them a few minutes is irrelevant. The fees they charge help not only offset the costs of acquiring and maintaining the proper tools but subsidize other areas of the business that may be necessary but for whatever reason not as profitable.

If you can do it yourself and have the inclination then by all means do it.

As to your specific endeavor if you have the right community it may be successful. I would rent a tool to press headsets and bb, but of all my cycling buddies I'm probably the only one that does anything but the most basic jobs. In some of the various cycling meccas there may be a market for it.

[Rebel_Biker]

I think the problem for renting taps for example is that a moron can mess up the tool big time and in that case you could lost it all before getting your money back.

Thanks ultraman. That would be a big risk. I will say that the tapping is not that difficult. The tool is pretty dummy proof, but someone who is not careful to use the oil properly could definitely cause problems. Users may also not be as careful as an owner when handling the taps.

[Rebel_Biker]

Generally speaking you pay skilled labor because they know how to do something you can't or don't want to do and because they have the proper tools in good repair to do the job correctly. The fact that it only takes them a few minutes is irrelevant. The fees they charge help not only offset the costs of acquiring and maintaining the proper tools but subsidize other areas of the business that may be necessary but for whatever reason not as profitable.

If you can do it yourself and have the inclination then by all means do it.

As to your specific endeavor if you have the right community it may be successful. I would rent a tool to press headsets and bb, but of all my cycling buddies I'm probably the only one that does anything but the most basic jobs. In some of the various cycling meccas there may be a market for it.

Excellent points and I agree.

However, we are talking about bikes and not cars. Most maintenance on bikes is not that difficult. I find the skill of a shop mechanic to a good home mechanic is speed.

It takes me all day to build up my bike and a good shop mechanic will do it in 1/4 of the time but not necessarily better.

One example is that it took me almost an hour to get my internal wiring done. A good shop mechanic with the proper guides and tricks will probably have it done in 15 minutes. The end product will be the same. I might have less hair from pulling it out, but I like wrenching my own bike and hate when I have to stop because a specific tool is expensive for a one time use.

The biggest question for entrepreneurs, is how many of me are there, the size of the market and how inelastic is there demand.

[ultraman6970]

Honestly? I would rent a tool set with taps and headset press and other stuff for 25 bucks for and hour (or 30 mins) for example, but I would go to the dude place and then use it live right there. Once I have the job done I would come back home.

Rent stuff to take home would give me the creeps because eventhought I know how to use the tools you never know what could happen at home, besides the use of the tools is fairly quick. If takes 1 hour for somebody to put a headset with the tools means that the dude doesnt know what he is doing, dont even thing in the BB part heheehe

Wish somebody here in the area had a "rent place to go" to use tools like that. One of my friends got a BB with the threads busted, ended up making a DIY tap with an old steel BB cup to fix it. But at some point we were like.. ok who has this crap in the area...

[ceolwulf]

1. Thinking of engineering an all in one BB press and removal for all standards. High quality tool that would properly seat and remove, without the need to hammer out the PF BB. Enduro makes a good option but it is expensive and you need different tools for bb86, 92, and 30. Looking to be in the $75 - $100 range. Would you buy one of these?

.


I don't have a press fit frame but were I to get one I would probably buy such a tool.

[sitzmark]

The biggest question for entrepreneurs, is how many of me are there, the size of the market and how inelastic is there demand.

Percentage wise, not a lot. Good chance that a number of those who are either have their own tools, or access to them.

If you don't want to make a profit and only want to break even on purchase of your tools, the challenge is easier. You can amortize over years if you have to. But you have to figure in the lost opportunity cost of that $$ if you were to do somethingelse with it ... or interest and opportunity cost if you're borrowing it.

You'll have some marketing expense to find and recruit customers, unless you are tied in well with "people like you".

Investment risk (from damage/loss) and insurance expense to protect yourself if you're so inclined (should be) will up you break even number.

Shop guys and owners are trying to support themselves and families, so the objective is a bit different. If you're not concerned with making a profit, I'd say go for it. If you are, you're on the right track surveying online communities like this and cycling communities local to you.

For me - taking to a shop that it trust for facing and pressing is too easy and not all that expensive. $25 I might think about your solution .. maybe. $50+ not enough incentive.

[pbarry]

The universal press is a great idea.

Letting taps out of your sight in the hands of a stranger is asking for trouble. :eek:

[Rebel_Biker]

Thank you all for the comments.

The rental business is probably dumb, and the economics would be tough anyway.

I do think a BB tool could work if done correctly. Someone, or company, needs to address that the PF BB does not allow the home mechanic to change their own bearings, which is an item that wears down. Almost all race frames have some kind of PF BB to account for the wider BBs. Even Pinarello is slowly going in that direction.

The home mechanic should be able to perform basic maintenance on their bike. I think a BB change is basic maintenance.

[oldpotatoe]

Thank you all for the comments.

The rental business is probably dumb, and the economics would be tough anyway.

I do think a BB tool could work if done correctly. Someone, or company, needs to address that the PF BB does not allow the home mechanic to change their own bearings, which is an item that wears down. Almost all race frames have some kind of PF BB to account for the wider BBs. Even Pinarello is slowly going in that direction.

The home mechanic should be able to perform basic maintenance on their bike. I think a BB change is basic maintenance.

Well, ask around to your cycling buddies and ask them the difference between English and Italian threading. See how many know.

[zzy]

And if I had a Vecchios and you as a mechanic, I would probably not rent the tool set. But if I lived in NYC, which I did for over 15 years, I would rather do the work myself, especially is I am performing a complete bike prep. The variance of quality across shops in NYC was tremendous..

This is so true, and it's so frustrating. You never know who's actually doing the work on your bike, a skilled senior mechanic or a kid who whose only experience is fixies and low end road bikes who they hired to do assemblies. I do my best to support local shops and have been burned because of it. I've been wrenching for over a decade so I've learned a thing or two in the process. My favorite horror story is finding a 1" Alpha Q fork brand new (rare as hen's teeth). I take it to my local shop and ask if they have a Park CSB-1 blade and know how to do carbon steerers. The guy literally rolls his eyes at me, takes the fork and walks away. He brings back the fork and a huge chunk of the opposite end from where he cut had splintered off. I was furious. He said that was normal. I explained to him how to properly cut a carbon steerer (have two cuts meet, or at least using masking tape). The manager get involved and offers to replace it. I tell him what fork is and he just sucks air thru his teeth and apologizes.

OP - While I like the idea, the tools will be easily damaged if misused, and the cost of shipping will be prohibitive. What we really need are more well-equipped bike co ops. Especially here in NYC.

[Rebel_Biker]

I agree with a well run coop. And NYC could support one, but most other cities could not.


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[CaptStash]

Thank you all for the comments.

Someone, or company, needs to address that the PF BB does not allow the home mechanic to change their own bearings, which is an item that wears down.

What am I missing here? I bought a Park BT 30.3 for $40. Not a lot of dough. A hunk of threaded rod, some nuts and washers, and I can install and remove BB30 and SRAM 30's to my heart's content.

I do like the idea of a universal tool. Seems like the only differences would be the sizes of the fittings used to press the bearings in and pop them out.

CaptStash....

[Rebel_Biker]

What am I missing here? I bought a Park BT 30.3 for $40. Not a lot of dough. A hunk of threaded rod, some nuts and washers, and I can install and remove BB30 and SRAM 30's to my heart's content.

I do like the idea of a universal tool. Seems like the only differences would be the sizes of the fittings used to press the bearings in and pop them out.

CaptStash....

That is one way to handle a press in and removal. However, that wont remove any press in 24mm bearings. So, if your next bike is a bb92, you need another tool.

I would also like to address the use of BBT-90.3 for removal. Banging out bottom brackets from an all carbon BB shell does not seem right to me. Enduro has an excellent tool but it is $100 and they only come in specific BB standards.

If I can gauge how big of a demand and at what price point, I can start to build some prototypes. My father in law is an oil and gas exploration and drilling engineer and this would be right up his ally. But I don't want him going crazy developing CADs if there is little chance of a production run.

Thank you CaptStash.

[SPOKE]

Rent the tools to prep a Ti frame to someone that "believes" that they know what they are doing and see what happens.......😁

[rwsaunders]

These two gents are in the bicycle tool business. Perhaps reach out to them to discuss the challenges and rewards of heading down this path.

http://www.abbeybiketools.com

http://farrframeworks.com/farr-tooling

[Rebel_Biker]

These two gents are in the bicycle tool business. Perhaps reach out to them to discuss the challenges and rewards of heading down this path.

http://www.abbeybiketools.com

http://farrframeworks.com/farr-tooling

thank you

It will be interesting to see what we can come up with. My father in law has used the machine shop he uses for his work to manipulate a couple of my tools to make them work better and other uses. One thing we did was add a spring tension to the BTS-1 so we could get the torque needed to face with that tool.

I know we could build an incredible tool, the question is can we make it affordable and is there a big enough market. I would focus on how to evenly tension out the PF cups while protecting the carbon BB shell.

[Rebel_Biker]

Rent the tools to prep a Ti frame to someone that "believes" that they know what they are doing and see what happens.......😁

Agrees. I hear the forum member loud and clear that the expensive tool rental business has too much liability on both sides.