School me on wheels

[notsew]

Looks like wheels are going to be my gear obsession of the month.

I've been riding for a couple of years and slowly upgrading stuff as opportunities arise. I've got my eyes on going for wheels next. I'm cheap so that means that I'm probably in the used market ($300-$400). I've been trying to track opinions on wheels, but it feels a little overwhelming.

I'm currently on Campy Khamsin G3s on a Look 555 (forum purchase) and an old 10 speed Daytona group. I try to ride 30-50 miles a week as time, my wife and one-year-old allow. Mostly just for fitness, but racing for fun isn't out of the realm of future possibilities.

I'm never going to be a rockstar rider, but I like to go as fast as I can and everything I've upgraded so far has made the ride more fun and pleasant. I don't even know what I want, but I want to know more. I've been eyeing Zondas, Eurus or Ksyriums.

What types of pros and cons should I be considering? What should I expect from better wheels? How does Campy's selection line up with Mavics? If I was going for some handmade option, what types of things should I look for? How do I think about prices for that?

Thanks

[rustychisel]

Gosh, umm, oldpotatoe will say 'get handbuilts', lots of others will say 'get Campagnolo wheels', some people will say Mavic 'are crap', others will say 'they're good', I say read more topic lines about this then get what floats your boat, aesthetically speaking also, and MAKE SURE you spend good money on the best tyres you can get. Then ride 'em at proper pressures and smile.

[thirdgenbird]

Go with a spring classic look and buy these:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=156867
It would hard to get a classier, higher quality, or more durable wheelset elsewhere. Get a great set of tires (veloflex master) and the ride will be fantastic.

If you do go prebuilt, I like campagnolo hubs better than mavic. Mavic also discontinues support fairly quickly. Campy spare parts are expensive, but they seem to be available. My eurus wheels are old and haven't needed touched however.

[R3awak3n]

I was about to say that, those are a great deal, awesome hubs.


If you want to build your own you have tons of options at that price with a good used hubset. I just built for less than $400 some H plus Son Archtype rims to black record hubs (amazing hubset I got here in the forum) and sapin race spokes.


I have had a pair of campagnolo vento pre builts and they were excellent as well

[thirdgenbird]

I own a set of eurus wheels and a record to cxp33 wheelset by the way.

[Ken Robb]

I gave up aero/deep section rims because I live near the beach and often ride along the beach. Whatever speed I MIGHT have gained through reduced aero drag was overshadowed by my discomfort when pushed around by our usual crosswinds. I prefer low profile rims like Open Pros or similar.

[cmg]

"I'm probably in the used market ($300-$400)." If you have a wheel builder in your area you can get parts from the the bikehubstore.com. and build a light at the rim wheelset. Had a wheelset built with 380+gram rims for slightly under $400, 28 front and 32 rear spoke count. when looking at low spoke count manufactured wheelsets like Zondas, Eurus or Ksyriums the manufacuer never lists the rim weight, just total weight. All low spoke count wheels will have to have stronger, heavier rims to offset the fewer spokes, so for the most part you'll get a 465+gram rim with 24 spokes and a hub with carbon bits to get to the advertised weight. hub and spoke weight don't really effect the feel of the wheelset as rim weight does. swap a set of conti 4000/65gram inner tubes with conti gatorskins and thorn proof tubes to feel the difference. use lots of spoke and as light a rim as you can find.

[oldpotatoe]

Gosh, umm, oldpotatoe will say 'get handbuilts', lots of others will say 'get Campagnolo wheels', some people will say Mavic 'are crap', others will say 'they're good', I say read more topic lines about this then get what floats your boat, aesthetically speaking also, and MAKE SURE you spend good money on the best tyres you can get. Then ride 'em at proper pressures and smile.

And Gosh, you took the words right outta my mouth...

[AngryScientist]

brand spankin new set of zondas from the UK is under 400 shipped. you will notice the drop in weight from your khamsins immediately, and the zondas are some of the best wheels in the campy line-up, pricepoint wise.

how much do you weight?

[rustychisel]

And Gosh, you took the words right outta my mouth...

I did. Sorry 'bout that. :)

[ultraman6970]

A good set of wheels is a set that is reliable. Not crazy expensive and easy to fix. Those 3 conditions leave a lot of brands off the list right away.

The khamsin wheels arent bad considering that are the low end campagnolo. You have to put everything in perspective right?

[oldpotatoe]

I did. Sorry 'bout that. :)

Nope, saw it as a compliment...

[biker72]

I have both Zondas and hand built. Both work great.

[LouDeeter]

You will always obsess about whether or not you have the best equipment. It is a natural progression in our sport. You want to know that your performance isn't limited by your equipment, but by your fitness and technique. That said, in my opinion, you have a nice set of wheels now and despite the "want" speaking to you, the "need" just isn't there yet. Enjoy your riding, use your hard earned money for your family, and upgrade when you get to the point where you know exactly what you want and you can afford it without feeling like you have to do it on the cheap.

If you still feel the urge, at your price target, you can find some of the better used sets on the market. Decide whether you want to go light or go durable or both. There will be a compromise somewhere in that range of choices.

If you have rider friends, ask to try their lighter front wheel first. That is where you will notice the difference in the handling. If you like what you find, take it from there. And, don't forget the tires. Cheap, heavy tires can negate the best set of wheels.

[oldpotatoe]

Looks like wheels are going to be my gear obsession of the month.

I've been riding for a couple of years and slowly upgrading stuff as opportunities arise. I've got my eyes on going for wheels next. I'm cheap so that means that I'm probably in the used market ($300-$400). I've been trying to track opinions on wheels, but it feels a little overwhelming.

I'm currently on Campy Khamsin G3s on a Look 555 (forum purchase) and an old 10 speed Daytona group. I try to ride 30-50 miles a week as time, my wife and one-year-old allow. Mostly just for fitness, but racing for fun isn't out of the realm of future possibilities.

I'm never going to be a rockstar rider, but I like to go as fast as I can and everything I've upgraded so far has made the ride more fun and pleasant. I don't even know what I want, but I want to know more. I've been eyeing Zondas, Eurus or Ksyriums.

What types of pros and cons should I be considering? What should I expect from better wheels? How does Campy's selection line up with Mavics? If I was going for some handmade option, what types of things should I look for? How do I think about prices for that?

Thanks

try high end tires first..that may open your eyes a lot.

Or go talk to a local wheel guru in Bellingham..see what he/she says.

Yup, mavic wheels have a crappy rear hub design..Fulcrum/Campagnolo wheels-great hubs.

[Ralph]

brand spankin new set of zondas from the UK is under 400 shipped. you will notice the drop in weight from your khamsins immediately, and the zondas are some of the best wheels in the campy line-up, pricepoint wise.

how much do you weight?

For the money......I think this is best wheel deal, factory or hand built, available. You've got to spend way more than this to do better. With terrific Campy hubs, also. I've had perfect results with mine. Aero enough for my under 30 MPH level riding, light enough to be competitive, and on my non tubeless ready versions..... tires go on with fingers....a big plus for me.

[Tony]

I agree, for the money this is a great wheelset/deal. However, the spoke pattern may not be to everyone's liking.

[R3awak3n]

yep, I am not a fan of the g3 spoke patterns. Works with some bikes, doesnt work with most IMO but it really is a personal preference.

[AngryScientist]

yep, I am not a fan of the g3 spoke patterns. Works with some bikes, doesnt work with most IMO but it really is a personal preference.

fortunately, the fulcrum line of wheels, for the most part has an equivalent wheel to the campy wheel, sans G3

[notsew]

Thanks for all the great responses. This is interesting. I have to say, I hadn't thought too much about hand-built, they seemed unrealistic price wise.

I keep coming back back to the Zondas. And they have an obviously stellar reputation. I've seen some used Eurus for a decent price, is the only significant difference the weight? Does the hub level differ? In conversations about Campy wheels, folks always say a wheel has such and such level hub. Are the hubs essentially the same you would get if purchased as just hubs? What level hubs are the Zonda or Eurus?


how much do you weight?
180

That said, in my opinion, you have a nice set of wheels now and despite the "want" speaking to you, the "need" just isn't there yet.

I get that fully and I agree. I like to think I'm not operating under any major delusions. I definitely don't need new wheels. But part of not deluding myself is recognizing that I like the gear and making sure it comes second to the riding (and way behind the fam). I don't think I'm alone there. :)


Lots of talk about tires, I'm running Conti 4000. The consensus seems to put them at decent, right?

[gregblow]

fortunately, the fulcrum line of wheels, for the most part has an equivalent wheel to the campy wheel, sans G3

I am looking at the zondas on wiggle right now. they are $572. did you find them cheaper?

[AngryScientist]

I am looking at the zondas on wiggle right now. they are $572. did you find them cheaper?

huh? $397 from where i sit, which is up quite a few bucks since a few months ago, but still under 4 bills shipped...

http://www.wiggle.com/campagnolo-zonda-clincher-wheelset/

[AngryScientist]

edit: the clincher only version is 20 grams lighter and $180 less. those are the ones you want. road tubeless is stupid.

[Ralph]

yep, I am not a fan of the g3 spoke patterns. Works with some bikes, doesnt work with most IMO but it really is a personal preference.

What's wrong with the G3 pattern....other than Internet lore? Allows 2 drive side spokes for each non drive side. High flange on drive side, lower on non drive side. 2X on drive side, radial on non drive side. For you Sheldon Brown fans.....this build is right out of his best practices wheel building book. LOL.....it's also how Henry Ford build spoke wheels for his early cars, where you have a lot of wheel offset to cover brakes. Agree.....rims, hubs, spokes, etc.....need to be thought out to work as a unit. Rear wheel a litle wider, deeper, and stronger in the Zonda. Hard to engineer that in handbuilts. I actually passed over the Shamal and Eurus in favor of Zonda's. Preferred standad bearings and flat steel spokes over thicker aluminum spokes.

if you talking about looks.....don't get that, but guess some do.

[R3awak3n]

What's wrong with the G3 pattern....other than Internet lore? Allows 2 drive side spokes for each non drive side. High flange on drive side, lower on non drive side. 2X on drive side, radial on non drive side. For you Sheldon Brown fans.....this build is right out of his best practices wheel building book. LOL.....it's also how Henry Ford build spoke wheels for his early cars, where you have a lot of wheel offset to cover brakes.

if you talking about looks.....don't get that, but guess some do.

was talking about looks. Like I said its personal preference, I am not a fan, some people like it.


I had ventos with the g3 pattern and they were phenomenal wheels so my comment was strictly on looks.

[thirdgenbird]

Unless things have changed, zonda and eurus wheels use the same hub internals as record. They are cup/cone vs the sealed bearing hubs you currently have.

I am about the same weight as you and my eurus wheels have been terrific. Mine are actually the older steel spoke eurus wheels that are pretty similar to the current zonda. If you like the look of those vs the ones I recommended on page one, go for it. I doubt you will be disapointed. The only thing I don't love about the zonda is the skewer. It's not a bad skewer, but not as nice as the closed cam version used on the eurus on up.

[Gaucho410]

The G3 pattern is sort of half-right - the 2:1 lacing pattern is naturally a very strong way to make wheels, however by putting the non-driveside spoke between the two driveside spokes to make those triplets does leave large unsupported parts of the rim, which can cause issues. Aesthetically it's really cool looking, and Campy wheels do have a really good reliability record in spite of it, however it seems like they could be just that much better.

[ceolwulf]

G3 is great. My Ventos never once had to be trued in the probably five years I had them. Current Khamsins so far perfect as well. Khamsins really are excellent wheels especially for the price they ask for them.

About the Zondas, am I correct that the Scirocco 35 is the same thing except with steel spokes? Or am I remembering something wrong.

[veloduffer]

I have used many, many different wheels - both handbuilt and factory.

Unless on sale, handbuilt wheels are $ for $ the best value and quality. I have wheels built by builders on the forum and web (Joe Young). For example, I currently use a set of clincher wheels that weigh 1320 grams with Stan's rim tape: Stan's 340 Alpha rims, Tune hubs, Sapim CX-Ray spokes. I asked for a sub 1400-gram wheelset for my 170-175lb weight. Cost about $780 and only need an occasional truing due to the bad roads and at that weight, especially the ridiculously light rims, it's to be expected. But very minor.

A good builder can easily build a very durable wheelset for you about 1400-1500 grams. You can bling it with colored nipples.

I also use/used HED, Reynolds carbon, Campy and Mavic wheels. Some factory are under-built or over-built at times. Given the mixed experience and review of Mavic wheels, I think their lightweight wheels are under-built. Campy/Fulcrum is almost universally praised and they are not the lightest wheels - more overbuilt. If you can get the Zondas at below $400, it's a no-brainer. I use the Shamals as my everyday wheels on two bikes - flawless.

Another consideration is whether you want wide rims (23mm and greater). More aero, more comfort. Campy is moving that way, but Mavic is still using the older width rims. HED uses 23mm wide rims and have their Ardenne's line of wheels; Stan's Alpha's have almost the same internal width as the HEDs.

If you want carbon, I think Reynolds offers the best value and their new wheels are 25mm wide. Good quality and good price, especially compared to Zipp (hubs are kind of suspect) and Enve (mucho $$).

[oldpotatoe]

edit: the clincher only version is 20 grams lighter and $180 less. those are the ones you want. road tubeless is stupid.

chuckle..and I agree.

[Gaucho410]

Yeah, at middle price points, custom wheels are the best thing you can do. There is a point at around $900-1000 where their performance tops out, after which you're better off getting a high-end factory-built wheelset (which are almost always handbuilt by some of the best builders I've ever seen, bar none).

[RobJ]

I have used many, many different wheels - both handbuilt and factory.

Unless on sale, handbuilt wheels are $ for $ the best value and quality.
Another consideration is whether you want wide rims (23mm and greater). More aero, more comfort. Campy is moving that way, but Mavic is still using the older width rims. HED uses 23mm wide rims and have their Ardenne's line of wheels; Stan's Alpha's have almost the same internal width as the HEDs.



I would agree with the custom route too. I used the BikeHubStore standard lightweight road hub and their semi-aero/wide clincher rim built up into a very strong, reliable, decently light set of wheels. And just did the same with a set of Archetypes/DT350's. You can find good deals on rims and hubs, hand it to your builder of choice and have rims designed for you. So taking into consideration your weight, your riding style and other personal preferences.

I was surprised that no one else had questioned not using 23mm wide rims vs. the discussion of the Zondas. I'm not one to argue the lacing patterns etc. But what about the maintenance of the hub and spokes? Would your standard LBS be able to adequately service the wheels vs. standard hubs/spoke lacing on other wheels? Just something to consider.

[R3awak3n]

not to mention that you might get a good deal on campy hubs here in the forum. I about went with the bike hub store hubs but at last minute got some black record hubs here for just a bit more money. Build them to h plus son archtype. (rims were $100, hubs were $170, nipples and spokes were about $60). If you dont feel confortable building them, get a builder to build them and you still won't spend much more than $400.

How much do builders charge now a days?

[RobJ]

My local wheel builder charges $75/wheel.

[thirdgenbird]

I was surprised that no one else had questioned not using 23mm wide rims vs. the discussion of the Zondas. I'm not one to argue the lacing patterns etc. But what about the maintenance of the hub and spokes? Would your standard LBS be able to adequately service the wheels vs. standard hubs/spoke lacing on other wheels? Just something to consider.

There is a good chance the zondas will go their entire life without needing spare spokes/nipples. I'm not even sure my 2004 or so eurus wheels have ever been trued.

The hubs are standard cup/cone and use the same parts as standard campy hubs.

Campy wheels are great, not worth a 20.5 vs 23mm debate.

I am a big hand built fan, but I would take campy hubs over BHS any day.

[rustychisel]

There is a good chance the zondas will go their entire life without needing spare spokes/nipples. I'm not even sure my 2004 or so eurus wheels have ever been trued.

The hubs are standard cup/cone and use the same parts as standard campy hubs.

Campy wheels are great, not worth a 20.5 vs 23mm debate.

I am a big hand built fan, but I would take campy hubs over BHS any day.


Eurus = the ones with steel spokes. Same experience here on my partner's bike. Don't remember the last time I even looked at them (or thought about doing any maintenance on them, ooops). Excellent.

[thegunner]

My local wheel builder charges $75/wheel.

damn, are you saying the going rate of $50 in nyc is actually cheap?

[mtechnica]

campy or fulcrum, don't bother with 32+ spoke hand builts it's not worth it

[oldpotatoe]

damn, are you saying the going rate of $50 in nyc is actually cheap?

Yep, Vecchio's and most in Boulder, the few(one other maybe?) shops that actually build wheels(maybe one other), $65 per.