Freehub spacers - Shimano

[Dead Man]

Howdy

Help me understand shimming freehubs for various hub and cassettes

Any time I change cassetted wheelsets or cassettes on wheels I have to kind of fumble my way through getting everything lined up.. Seems some of my freehubs require different size spacers behind the cassette, and/or that different Shimano cassettes require different spacers to get the rear der dialed in.

It seems to me like I ought to be able to get everything set up so that I can just swap out rear wheels without having to change my der stop limits, yet that's never the case.

For example - my Mavics came (used) with a 9-speed cassette and a fat spacer behind it. I assumed this fat spacer was for sake of the 9-speed cassette, and that I'd need to use the skinny little spacer that came with the 5700 12-25 cassette I wanted to put it on. But I couldn't get the lockring to cinch up on the cassette with the skinny spacer, so I put the original spacer back on. Everything clamped up nice and tight. Putting it on the bike, the rear der was all out of whack, requiring me to re-set the stops for the new cassette/wheel.

This meant I needed to change the der stops back again with my other wheelset on this bike... etc, etc.

And I've had the same kind of fumbling around and uncertainty with different wheels and bikes and cassettes.

What don't I know, that knowing would make my life easier? Are the spacer rings paired to particular wheelsets, regardless of cassette? Do the different freehub manufacturers have their own spacing, and so the problem is with mixing different freehubs- i.e., if I had two different Shimano wheels, I could swap between the two without having to change the rear der, but not between Mavic and Shimano, or Shimano and SRAM, or, etc.?

Or is it all cassette? Do the different cassettes (I only use Shimano) have different thicknesses, always necessitating different spacers?

Thanks gentlemen

-B

[8aaron8]

Mavic has a proprietary freehub body width. The spacer they provide with their wheels is always needed on 9/10 shimano cassettes. However, because of the odd width their hubs have been 11spd compatible for some time now.

[merlincustom1]

I don't think its the cassette, but my sample size was one. I have a Veloce cassette on a Recorb hub, no spacer as Campy to Campy. The same cassette on a CK R45 hub needed a 1 mm spacer.

[krismac23]

I think the real issue is the difference in tolerance's at the factories. if one is off by (x) amount and it doesn't fall in the range of the other wheel. You'll have some shifting issues. Wheels Manfc. sell's 3mm cassette spacer's we use at the shop to help some of the guys swap wheels for cx and not worry.

OT: imagine the frustration with disc and rotor's in the future to compound this issue even more.

[juanj]

You may find this article helpful:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Cassette_Spacers_2013_3978.html

[foon]

9sp cassette is 1.0mm wider than 10sp. (for tiagra 10sp though, i think that 1mm is built into the cassette)

For most of the 8/9/10sp hubs, a spacer is need for 10sp but not 9sp.

11sp is 2.8mm wider than 10sp.

On 11sp hubs, 9sp = 1.8mm spacer, 10sp = 1.8mm+ 1mm spacer.


Mavic hub was wider, treat it as an 11sp hub.

[Dead Man]

Ugh... so basically, its a big cluster.

Sounds like the only way to ensure best odds of swappability is to use shammy freehubs ans shammy cassettes exclusively, if you're a shammy guy.

But there is at least a consistency to it all. This chart is very helpful

You may find this article helpful:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Cassette_Spacers_2013_3978.html

http://www.slowtwitch.com/articles/images/2/84052-largest_Cassette_Chart_2013_Rev3.png

[oliver1850]

Shimano really screwed up with the 10 speed specific FHB width. They should have stuck with the 8/9 width and made all 10 speed cassettes the same width as the Tiagras.

The 4600 cassettes are 1 mm thicker, as foon mentioned. It's not really that they have a spacer built in, more to do with the other models having an aluminum carrier on which the large cog sits on the back side. If they had designed the carrier to have the extra 1 mm on the inner face and the 4600 total width we wouldn't be discussing this.

While I'm wishing for stuff that didn't happen, I'll go ahead and wish Shimano had widened the FHB to allow for the future when they went to 9 speed, as one other manufacturer did. Then we'd have thousands more 11 speed compatible wheels out there now.

[oldpotatoe]

Shimano really screwed up with the 10 speed specific FHB width. They should have stuck with the 8/9 width and made all 10 speed cassettes the same width as the Tiagras.

The 4600 cassettes are 1 mm thicker, as foon mentioned. It's not really that they have a spacer built in, more to do with the other models having an aluminum carrier on which the large cog sits on the back side. If they had designed the carrier to have the extra 1 mm on the inner face and the 4600 total width we wouldn't be discussing this.

While I'm wishing for stuff that didn't happen, I'll go ahead and wish Shimano had widened the FHB to allow for the future when they went to 9 speed, as one other manufacturer did. Then we'd have thousands more 11 speed compatible wheels out there now.

Not how shimano does things. They wished to have a certain sized bearing in their new cart bearing headsets...stack height 38mm, older HS 32mm, made a whole generation of threaded forks obsolete. But they got their bearing size.

I'm surprised a shimano 8s HG FH body was also 9/10s compatible.

Plus I think 11s was in conjunction with Campagnolo. If Campagnolo did electronic, shimano would go to 11s..'validated' each other's decision.

Just conjecture on my part but I know they have talked to one another.

[oliver1850]

Not how shimano does things. They wished to have a certain sized bearing in their new cart bearing headsets...stack height 38mm, older HS 32mm, made a whole generation of threaded forks obsolete. But they got their bearing size.

I'm surprised a shimano 8s HG FH body was also 9/10s compatible.

Plus I think 11s was in conjunction with Campagnolo. If Campagnolo did electronic, shimano would go to 11s..'validated' each other's decision.

Just conjecture on my part but I know they have talked to one another.

Yeah, planned obsolescence seems to be a design parameter for Shimano. I think they did shoot themselves in the foot with the 10 speed FHB though. Can't imagine that decision was a net gain to anyone, even Shimano.

Interesting - regarding the 11/electronic collaboration. In the past I've wondered how the players seem to end up with comparable stuff at the virtually same time - how much of that was natural development and how much was espionage. I hadn't thought much about collaboration, but it makes sense if it results in two majors getting a leg up on number three.

[oldpotatoe]

Yeah, planned obsolescence seems to be a design parameter for Shimano. I think they did shoot themselves in the foot with the 10 speed FHB though. Can't imagine that decision was a net gain to anyone, even Shimano.

Interesting - regarding the 11/electronic collaboration. In the past I've wondered how the players seem to end up with comparable stuff at the virtually same time - how much of that was natural development and how much was espionage. I hadn't thought much about collaboration, but it makes sense if it results in two majors getting a leg up on number three.

yes, both Campagnolo and shimano are interested in isolating scram.

They did that with Electronic and 11s road for a short time. no surprise spam is spaced like shimano, easier to copy and piggy-back than design something new.