How far can you push yourself? Consider Jure Robic

[Too Tall]

(snipped from NYT)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/sports/playmagazine/05robicpm.html?ex=1142485200&en=922411773835f740&ei=5070
================================================== ===
....In a consideration of Robic, three facts are clear: he is nearly indefatigable, he is occasionally nuts, and the first two facts are somehow connected. The question is, How? Does he lose sanity because he pushes himself too far, or does he push himself too far because he loses sanity? Robic is the latest and perhaps most intriguing embodiment of the old questions: What happens when the human body is pushed to the limits of its endurance? Where does the breaking point lie? And what happens when you cross the line?
================================================== ===

That is the question. What happens when you cross the line. We all have "the voice". Mine sometimes eggs me on to do something which will cause inevitable failure or the opposite. My voice is a coach "just 60 seconds more and you are done". When I'm racing ultras my brain can do some very very strange things like make me see things that are not there and reason with me "hey you KNOW that's not real, shut up and keep pedaling".

There is a little bit of Jure in all of us and I'm fascinated to know what emotions and "voices" will be in the audience...will it be Beauty or the Beast?!

What does happen when YOU cross the line?

[Tom]

- One time when I was a runner I came up a long hill without slowing at all, my vision slowly closed down to a peephole of light surrounded by a big tunnel of black. When I came up over the top it slowly opened up again. That was very cool. I was never able to get that again.
- Another time I was running along on a long day on a road just under the end of the airport where the National Guard flies those really big cargo aircraft. One came up over the trees and I was suddenly 10000 years backward, at first I was convinced an enormous roaring bird was overhead.
- Commonly I had the old "runner's high" thing where my energy wasn't coming from within me but up out of the ground through my feet. I had no idea where I stopped and everything else began. The whole coursing through the Stream Of Energy business, at one with it. Excellent stuff.
- So far, I have never had that kind of thing with the bike. For some reason I think the machinery sort of keeps me a little separated. Riding still isn't unconscious the way running was. I do have days where I go far enough for it to become very uncomfortable from fatigue and that's an interesting thing to screw around with. Being able to keep myself going when I really would prefer to quit it is satisfying in a sort of neurotic kind of way.

[Sandy]

When I cross the line, my wife hits me on the head with a rolling pin! :)

Obviously Robic's determination, ability to endure remarkable stress and pain, and his accompishments, really does put him in a very special class of athletes and humans. The way he handles the demands of competing is somewhat unique.

The most interesting part of the article, to me ,is the theory given relative to muscle endurance, ability to continue, with the brain, not the muscles, as the limiting factor.


Sandy

PS- So when are you going to race him in a RAAM??

[Fixed]

bro one day he won't come back .cheers :beer:

[keno]

is a quote of Robic's.

Is that the line, TT? I'm not trying to be picky, but rather to see how you are translating a one-of-a-kind type individual's experience into experience more common to the rest, or at least some, of us. Robic reminds me of some smart guys I used to know who were described as so smart that they saw issues in places where the rest of us didn't even see places. Robic would be that kind of guy as to his riding, an idiot savant of endurance, so to speak.

keno

[Too Tall]

He is what he is I make no judgement. As a catalyst for more discussion his experience and esp. what happens when we as athletes push ourselves not necessarily "over the line" to reach past pain, discomfort or mental stress...what happens? True, from my own experience I can say you are never the same once you've gone "over the line". You never come back, maybe that's a good thing. Rather, it is also a good discussion of how we choose to process our experience(s) in real time rather than in dreams or after the fact. I'll bet we all share some pretty interesting thoughts that run the gamut.

In Jure's case anger and seemingly narcissistic behavoir during the deepest throws of competition are at odds with what we admire in mature athletes. However, with few exceptions I've seen this time and again in the later stages of ultra events. Athletes become depleted, hormones out of whack and they do / say things you'd never expect. Perhaps it is the hypothalmus's ultimate FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT tactic? Who knows. I've been VERY lucky to deal with ultra athletes during competition were were absolute dolls which I found amazing and heart warming. During the 508 and RAAM my athletes were calm...even sweet to the end. OK OK I did have to yell at one guy once but he didn't yell back ;)

[sn69]

bro one day he won't come back .cheers :beer:


Jure is an interesting dude on many levels. He stands in stark contrast to Fabio Biasiolo, who is warm, engaging and quite friendly.

I'll be curious to see how Tinker and Souza fare in this crowd this year. The former has an expanse of ultra off-road experience as well as a burgeoning road ultra resume, and the latter has a penchant for dark beer, neon grape smugglers and, admittedly, is also building a formidable ultra resume to complement his past biathlon glory.

Even still, neither Tinker nor Kenny seem to have the singular compulsion that Jure supposedly has. He's out there, and while it has worked for him with RAAM, one has to wonder if he's happy and if these demons will consume him. Or if the space aliens will reclaim his brain for examination. Fixed, as always, got it right (and with a fewer words).... :beer:

[catulle]

Ehemm, I don´t know if this the place to write this, but here it goes anyway. I have a friend who is a doctor specialized in "aging"; which means that he whips rich, fat people into shape.

Talking to him the other day, he told me that each time you force your heart beat past a certain threshold, free radicals go haywire all over your body and the end result is as bad as smoking a pack of Marlboros all at once. Of course, the key concept here is "heart beat past a certain threshold". However, from what he continued saying, I gathered that that threshold for me would be quite lower than what I'm used to.

In understand that physycal conditioning has all to do with such threshold, but age is also a critical factor. To make a long story short, now I've become too aware that maybe I shouldn't push myself that much. Not because I'm lazy (which I am), but because I have that pack of Marlboro fixed to the neo-cortex.

In other words, when does physical exertion, as when riding centuries, becomes harmful to your health and make you age? I don't know, but that doctor friend got me wondering.

[Too Tall]

Tinker and Kennyboy will change the face of the race and hopefully bring an American victory.
I'd rather take up smoking than quit riding...hard.

[catulle]

Tinker and Kennyboy will change the face of the race and hopefully bring an American victory.
I'd rather take up smoking than quit riding...hard.

Good one. I'll tell that to my friend doctor. Thank you, TT.

[keno]

since he's a friend and, I assume won't bill you, ask your doc friend for a clearer description of that threshold, and, if not asking too much, some scientific references.

For some reason, the words "There are no free radicals" keep running through my mind. Also, the idea of smoking after sex is there, too.

keno

[catulle]

since he's a friend and, I assume won't bill you, ask your doc friend for a clearer description of that threshold, and, if not asking too much, some scientific references.

For some reason, the words "There are no free radicals" keep running through my mind. Also, the idea of smoking after sex is there, too.

keno

He did explain some, Keno, but I really couldn't put forth his argument. Something to do with VO2 max (?), lactate threshold, heart rate... If I can recall correctly, with age the body starts accumulating lactic acid at a lower rate of heart pulse; and once you pass that threshold, the exertion becomes damaging to the body (free radicals, like smoking a pack of cigarettes, etc.).

I had heard of "free radicals" before, but it is encouraging to read that there might not be such a thing (which is what I gather from what you wrote). I mostly wrote my original post as an inquiry rather than a categorical assertion. At the time, when talking to my friend, what he said made sense and left me thinking; however, maybe I didn't understand correctly or he could be wrong. I don't know.

Actually, I'd appreciate if you'd elaborate on your free radicals comment. Thanx.

[Too Tall]

Several of us have seen the pictures KenO. You are / were a free radical. It's elemental.

[Samster]

bro one day he won't come back .cheers :beer:

Clipped from the same article:

________________
Hans Mauritz, the co-organizer of Le Tour Direct, says: ‘‘For me, Jure is on another planet. He can die on the bike and keep going.’’
________________

[keno]

I was merely making a joke, at least trying to, along the lines of there being "no free lunch" (and a cigarette after sex). Nothing, beyond my question, was of substance.

I expect that I am among the handful of oldest regulars on this forum at 64, and, in the minds of some, should be quite interested in what your doc is referring to. Oddly, however, I am more interested in the science than in how it relates to me. Within the past few years I have done a time trial at my LT and regularly participate in the Air Products Program at Trexlertown pushing as hard as I can in the races, and have pushed myself hard not only in those situations but do intervals and the rest when so moved. I am in the Too Tall school on this - guns blazing.

Back to the point of your post. Analytically, I wonder why the same idea your doc spoke of would not apply to a person of any age, just at different levels. There is no doubt whatsoever that, over time, the body changes and is less able to perform work, other things being equal. It seems to me that there might be a physiological mechanism in the aging process beyond the mere facts of max hr, VO2 capacity, and the like at play if the problem he speaks of is age related.

I'm just a well-seasoned, inquiring mind. Sorry if I led you astray. I never, however, leave out the possibility that you are pulling my leg, but don't think so.

keno

[Too Tall]

Telomeres? Just a guess as to what your doc is hinting.
Anywho, what the man said. Smoke em' if you've got em'.

[scrooge]

he told me that each time you force your heart beat past a certain threshold, free radicals go haywire all over your body and the end result is as bad as smoking a pack of Marlboros all at once. .

Hardpack? Filtered? Lights? How serious is this?

And would this be connected to be tendancy to have a hacking cough after I push really hard? (Or am I exempt because I'm young-ish?)

[catulle]

Ok, guys... Here I am all concerned about the long life of cyclists and ya´ll are making fun of me. We must have real crooked genes. Hell, maybe we just ought to make smoking fashionable at the TdF all over again.

I really hope to be doing what you do at 64 (post-coitus smoke and all). God bless. :beer:

[keno]

I'm not making fun of you at all. As I wrote, I'm interested in your original post and explained why. BTW, I don't smoke; I make jokes that apparently amuse only myself.

keno

[Too Tall]

Noooooo, as Kenos unqualified apologist...he's yolking with yez :)
We are all concerned and at the same time not going to give up , in my case, something that gives me a great deal of reason for life...that and a good smoke ;)

[catulle]

Team Lucky Strike...

[Fixed]

bro I had a doctor tell me the only good exercise was sex .. well most middle age bros would be way.... out of shape if that were true. ...docs i.m.h.o. they talk a lot to get noticed if ten say go right one will say go left .just to be different . my boss has one for a expert witness wed. I had to take him his $1200 payoff i mean witness fee today .cheers :beer:

[catulle]

bro I had a doctor tell me the only good exercise was sex .. well most middle age bros would be way.... out of shape if that were true. ...docs i.m.h.o. they talk a lot to get noticed if ten say go right one will say go left .just to be different . my boss has one for a expert witness wed. I had to take him his $1200 payoff i mean witness fee today .cheers :beer:

Shhhh...

[bironi]

Thanks TT,

A very interesting article. I am amazed by athletes that train themselves, without measuring and dissecting every available minutia of data. It is also interesting to note how many athletes seem driven by the need to compensate for feeling useless in childhood, or at least looked down upon.

Byron

[stevep]

free radicals?
like patty hearst?
tom hayden?

[Fixed]

bro s.l.a. cheers

[shaq-d]

i felt god's hand on my back. not a bad way to bonk.

sd

[Keith A]

On a related note, how many of you have lost your cookies after riding hard? I have been close a couple of times, but managed to keep everything down. However, there is a guy who rides with us (and is a very strong rider) that will often puke after our Saturday group ride. He even lost it one time during the final sprint and turned his head to let it fly only to do so all over another rider http://www.barrierislandgraphics.com/forum/i/expressions/puke.gif