Bike of Theseus

[rilz]

Ok so this is a little out there but I was interested in this. Maybe some of you all have heard of the Ship of Theseus paradox. If you haven't, I'll offer a brief explanation and you can read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

The Ship of Theseus is a paradox involving a ship that has every single wooden plank on it slowly replaced until none of the original planks are left. Is this the same ship as the original ship?

So my question is the same but for a bike. If you replace every single component, let's say once a month for a couple years until everything is different, is it the same bike, or a new one? What is a bike? If you had to reduce a bike to a single component, which component would that be?

I hope this doesn't seem to serious :banana:

[rustychisel]

also known as 'grandpa's axe'... "I own my grandfather's axe. He replaced the head, of course, and I had to replace the handle and then the head, but it's my grandfather's axe."

The frame. When you replace the frame you have - metaphysically speaking - cut the Gordian Knot.

[Louis]

What about the human body? Don't your cells eventually get replaced over time? (during your lifetime) So, are you yourself, or someone else?

[rilz]

What about the human body? Don't your cells eventually get replaced over time? (during your lifetime) So, are you yourself, or someone else?

Most cells are replaced in your body over time but neurons and a few other cell types are not.' I have thought about this paradox also and have yet to come to a conclusion.

'source: I study cell biology and biochemistry

[rilz]

The frame. When you replace the frame you have - metaphysically speaking - cut the Gordian Knot.

I would probably agree with that, especially since the frame is what connects everything, but isn't it the wheels that spin, which make the essence of a vehicle?

[Louis]

but isn't it the wheels that spin, which make the essence of a vehicle?

Or maybe it's the bearings that allow the wheels to spin?

I think this sort of thing is reductio ad absurdum. Like peeling an onion looking for the essense of the onion - by the time you're done there's nothing left.

[rustychisel]

Or maybe it's the bearings that allow the wheels to spin?

I think this sort of thing is reductio ad absurdum. Like peeling an onion looking for the essense of the onion - by the time you're done there's nothing left.


yes, because following that line of reasoning it's the grease which allows the bearing to turn.

Oh heck, maybe it's not about the bike. It's the rider. No paradox there.

[Louis]

I would run if I thought it wouldn't destroy my knees, but it would; and just plain walking won't do, so I think it is about the bike.

[rustychisel]

I would run if I thought it wouldn't destroy my knees, but it would; and just plain walking won't do, so I think it is about the bike.


there you go again, introducing certainties into a game of variables... :)

[berserk87]

What about the human body? Don't your cells eventually get replaced over time? (during your lifetime) So, are you yourself, or someone else?

I am therefore a stranger to myself. Or something.

Great ponderings, by the way. I have wondered this myself at times. Not scientifically, however. Just while cleaning out lint from the belly button.

This is a fun forum.

[Netdewt]

If the frame is the bike, is it still the same if you paint it?

What makes anything "the same"?

I would tend to say, it's totally different EVERY time you change ANY part. That's what makes it so fun. It's a little extreme but it stops the circular reasoning.

[ceolwulf]

A bike is a state of mind :cool:

[axel23]

If you allow academic philosophy into this discussion (and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't), then Ordinary Language gives you the answer. If I ride a Tommasini and change out the components, including the wheels, I still have a Tommasini. If I strip it, repaint it, and even if I replace the steel fork with a carbon model, I still have a Tommasini. So yes, it's the frame.

If you want to go to extremes and wonder what happens if you methodically replace every tube, and maybe even the lugs, then the answer would be...:bike:

[Dead Man]

This is why I have so much difficulty when people ask me, "what kind of bike is that?"

Well, that's a long, sordid story.

[RedRider]

It's only original once.

[Lewis Moon]

I would argue that it's not the same bike if it "changes state", if you will. I saw a 3Rensho track bike that had been made into a ghastly townie, complete with straight bars and carbon fork. I wanted to puke. I threw up a little in my mouth just writing this.

If you cut the derailleur hanger off a bike it is also not the same bike.

[Dead Man]

If you cut the derailleur hanger off a bike it is also not the same bike.

I had an itch to do an inexpensive "vintage" bike last year... just something in decent shape, lugged steel, not too particular. Garage sale bike type stuff. I found that just about every steel frame on our Portland craigslist had a hacked off hanger.

And they still wanted $100+ for that crap! And apparently people buy them.

[tiretrax]

I would run if I thought it wouldn't destroy my knees, but it would; and just plain walking won't do, so I think it is about the bike.

Seriously - another thread about Lance Armstrong?

[Wolfman]

Ah, yes. The great imponderables...

Is being a continuity of _substance_, or of _essence_?

[CaptStash]

I agree that it is the frame. I buy and sell a lot of bikes, and have helped out a bunch of folks locally by putting bikes together for them. I always tell them that it is about the frame. The rest can be changed, but the frame has the biggest effect on determining the riding experience.

CaptStash....

[Louis]

The rest can be changed, but the frame has the biggest effect on determining the riding experience.

Unless you're climbing a 20% grade with a 39-53 / 11-23 drivetrain.

[krismac23]

frameset is the soul, wheels are at the heart IMO

[vav]

The frame is the frame ATHO. :eek:

[notsew]

It is the frame.

The frame - its shape, its length, its width - is the hull of the bike. Unlike the planks of the boat, it cannot have its pieces replaced (usually). Bars, saddles, cranks and brakes are rudders, spars, sails and sheets. Changing one or all may alter the handling, but are replaceable without changing the underlying essence of the bike.

[rilz]

It is the frame.

The frame - its shape, its length, its width - is the hull of the bike. Unlike the planks of the boat, it cannot have its pieces replaced (usually). Bars, saddles, cranks and brakes are rudders, spars, sails and sheets. Changing one or all may alter the handling, but are replaceable without changing the underlying essence of the bike.

I think this is my favorite answer to this question so far.