Lightish wheels for a heavy(ish) rider?

[dvancleve]

Howdy folks. I realize this is pretty similar to the 205 pound rider wheel thread, but I my goal is different and I didn't want to trample the other one. I weigh about 215 now but hope to be back down around 200 before too much longer. I want to build some new wheels, but what I really want are the lightest wheels that should hold up okay. I don't want to build 32/32 3x wheels, want or need them to be bombproof, etc.

My personal belief is that if a 32 spoke rear wheel is strong enough for you, you don't need a 32 spoke front wheel. If you think you need a 32 spoke front wheel, you probably should have more than a 32 spoke rear wheel. I have a couple 32/36 wheelsets and they are fine, but that's not what I'm looking to do now.

I'm most likely going to use Archetype rims, and I'm leaning toward Hope Mono RS hubs. I rode a set of 24/28 wheels built with Velocity Fusion rims for about 1000 miles and didn't have any issues with them. I think they were laced 2x front and 3x DS/2x NDS rear, probably with 14/15g spokes. Based on rim weight, I doubt those rims are any stronger than Archetypes and probably not as strong since they're narrower.

Anyway, that's my semi-relevant experience and thought process. Would a 24/28 set of Archetypes be dumb? Is doing 28/32 any significant amount stronger? I realize there's not much weight difference, but like I said, I'm looking for wheels that are strong enough not overbuilt/bulletproof…

The only other thing on the table is that I have a set of 32 spoke silver Record hubs that are really sweet, but I'm not sure they fit in with my idea for this wheelset. What do you think is the lightest set of wheels I could build on those hubs without risking breaking the flanges (no radial lacing)? I toyed with the idea of getting some Stans A340s (or whatever they're called) since they're so light, but folks don't seem to hold them in high regard or think they're particularly durable. I haven't heard of it being done (but I'm sure it has), what happens when the whole rear wheel is Laser spokes instead of thicker Race on the drive side?

Thanks, Doug

[bikinchris]

Rider weight doesn't always mean the wheels will end up failing. I know riders who weigh 100 pounds less than me who can tear up a wheelset quickly. If you have a smooth pedal stroke and unweight for rough spots, you can ride a light pair of wheels.

I would suggest very good hubs with flanges that enhance equal spoke tension, then build wheels with an offset spoke bed for the rear. 32 holes rear and 28 hole front, double butted spokes both front and back.

[dvancleve]

Rider weight doesn't always mean the wheels will end up failing. I know riders who weigh 100 pounds less than me who can tear up a wheelset quickly. If you have a smooth pedal stroke and unweight for rough spots, you can ride a light pair of wheels.

I would suggest very good hubs with flanges that enhance equal spoke tension, then build wheels with an offset spoke bed for the rear. 32 holes rear and 28 hole front, double butted spokes both front and back.

Ah yes, I was thinking about this earlier today before I posted then forgot. I think I'm pretty pretty gentle on equipment, the only wheels I've ever had any trouble with were all factory built and either wouldn't stay true or broke spokes (straight 15g). Is the A23 the only wide rim available with offset drilling?

Doug

[ceolwulf]

This is nearly the same thread I was planning to post at some point.

Same boat here, heavyish guy (200, on my way down to 175 (but I've said that before)) but easy on equipment. I was also thinking of using Archetypes.

Was studying up on triplet lacing yesterday and that seems like it has a lot of benefits, mainly the even tension between DS and NDS, at the expense of being more difficult to build, and unrideable if a NDS spoke does go pop. You could use that 32h rear hub with a 24h wheel and triplet lacing if you wanted.

Another interesting option was suggested by Tom Kellogg in an old thread I found at V.Salon:

Do up the right (drive) side radial and the left side 3X. The 3x will give you close to tangent drive spoke orientation while the radial drive side will make the wheel as laterally rigid as you can get with a given hub/rim combination.

Tangent spoking is great for drive stiffness, but not good for lateral stiffness. Radial is laterally the best, but for drive, it is useless. So the trick is to use both in one wheel, with the radial side being the one with worst dish issues.

So at present I'm thinking of a 24h radial front, 28h rear with radial drive side/3-cross non-drive side (assuming hub flange has room for 3x). I have built very few wheels so far, so the triplet I will leave till I have a bit more experience, I think. I am suspecting the 24h front will be fine as my Khamsins take CX beatings no worries and those are 18 spoke and I can't really see the rim being all that much stronger than the Archetype. But would appreciate hearing from those more experienced.

[dvancleve]

This is nearly the same thread I was planning to post at some point.

Same boat here, heavyish guy (200, on my way down to 175 (but I've said that before)) but easy on equipment. I was also thinking of using Archetypes.

Was studying up on triplet lacing yesterday and that seems like it has a lot of benefits, mainly the even tension between DS and NDS, at the expense of being more difficult to build, and unrideable if a NDS spoke does go pop. You could use that 32h rear hub with a 24h wheel and triplet lacing if you wanted.

Another interesting option was suggested by Tom Kellogg in an old thread I found at V.Salon: (3x NDS, radial DS).

So at present I'm thinking of a 24h radial front, 28h rear with radial drive side/3-cross non-drive side (assuming hub flange has room for 3x). I have built very few wheels so far, so the triplet I will leave till I have a bit more experience, I think. I am suspecting the 24h front will be fine as my Khamsins take CX beatings no worries and those are 18 spoke and I can't really see the rim being all that much stronger than the Archetype. But would appreciate hearing from those more experienced.

I did one triplet wheel, I thought it was really cool and turned out well. I left it sitting for a few months before ever riding it, and discovered a crack in the rim from one of the non-drive side spokes. I don't think anything was over tensioned, the rim may not have been particularly well-suited for it so maybe it was just a fluke. It was a 32 spoke hub, though I don't think that matters one way or the other. The hardest part about a triplet wheel is calculating accurate spoke lengths, I got help with that from Ergott. You can actually get triplet specific 27 hole rims and hubs from the Bike Hub Store, that would be pretty cool.

I'm about to do a variation on the three cross non-drive side radio drive side that you mention on a 24 spoke rear wheel for my wife's bike. It's going to be to 2x NDS and 1x heads in DS. This gives the same bracing angle benefits as radial lacing but with some crossing. I'm not sure it would work as well on a 28 or more spoke rear wheel though, since the single cross will be closer to the hub. Also realize that not all hubs should be radially lace so take that into account. Any 28 spoke rear hub that doesn't have a really small flange diameter should be fine lace 3X.

I'm a little less certain about lacing front wheels than rear, there's no twisting force on them so it seems like radially laced always make sense. You don't see very many radial front wheels with more than 24 spokes, not sure why. Most radial front wheels also seem to be laced heads out, but heads in should make for a stiffer wheel. Not sure about that either…

Doug

[Bob Ross]

I don't want ... or need them to be bombproof

Oops, I've clearly wandered into the wrong thread.

;)

[blood.meridian]

I too think that you should be completely fine with something like 28 spoke 2x Velocity or Archetype wheels.

[oldpotatoe]

Howdy folks. I realize this is pretty similar to the 205 pound rider wheel thread, but I my goal is different and I didn't want to trample the other one. I weigh about 215 now but hope to be back down around 200 before too much longer. I want to build some new wheels, but what I really want are the lightest wheels that should hold up okay. I don't want to build 32/32 3x wheels, want or need them to be bombproof, etc.

My personal belief is that if a 32 spoke rear wheel is strong enough for you, you don't need a 32 spoke front wheel. If you think you need a 32 spoke front wheel, you probably should have more than a 32 spoke rear wheel. I have a couple 32/36 wheelsets and they are fine, but that's not what I'm looking to do now.

I'm most likely going to use Archetype rims, and I'm leaning toward Hope Mono RS hubs. I rode a set of 24/28 wheels built with Velocity Fusion rims for about 1000 miles and didn't have any issues with them. I think they were laced 2x front and 3x DS/2x NDS rear, probably with 14/15g spokes. Based on rim weight, I doubt those rims are any stronger than Archetypes and probably not as strong since they're narrower.

Anyway, that's my semi-relevant experience and thought process. Would a 24/28 set of Archetypes be dumb? Is doing 28/32 any significant amount stronger? I realize there's not much weight difference, but like I said, I'm looking for wheels that are strong enough not overbuilt/bulletproof…

The only other thing on the table is that I have a set of 32 spoke silver Record hubs that are really sweet, but I'm not sure they fit in with my idea for this wheelset. What do you think is the lightest set of wheels I could build on those hubs without risking breaking the flanges (no radial lacing)? I toyed with the idea of getting some Stans A340s (or whatever they're called) since they're so light, but folks don't seem to hold them in high regard or think they're particularly durable. I haven't heard of it being done (but I'm sure it has), what happens when the whole rear wheel is Laser spokes instead of thicker Race on the drive side?

Thanks, Doug

Use the Record hubs...if ya want light and durable, use tubulars.

Remember by saving 8-12 spokes, it's only about 3 ounces total(28 grams for 4 spokes) but less spokes, particularly on a rear wheel, coupled with a light rim=less durability.

Try lighter tires, tubes.

You want lighter but with no worries. I'd say there are other, better places to look to save weight..and you have mentioned them in your first paragraph.

BUT use lightish rims, Archtypes or Pacenti rims..use Revolution spokes front(3 cross) and left side rear, 14/15 elsewhere with the understanding that these are less reliable than the same rims with 14-15 all around. If you DO use 28 rear, lace 3 cross, inside pulling.

Don't make the 3 strikes and you are out, mistake. Light rim, thin spokes, too few spokes.

Sorry, no such thing as a free lunch.

[bfd]

Are you building these wheels yourself? If not, make sure you get a good wheelbuilder!

I'm a heavy guy (approx. 200lbs +/-) and last year, before one of the best wheelbuilders in SF closed shop, Len at the Bike Nook, I had him build me up one more wheel. I had a 32h Chorus rear hub and bought a Mavic Open Pro rim from him. I asked Len to use 15/16 (1.8/1.6) db spokes with aluminum alloy nipples. I have always used 14/15 (2.0/1.8) db spokes, but I wanted to try something "lighter." Len was game!

Well, let me say that Len is a master builder! I have put a few thousand miles on this rear wheel and it is rock solid! With the lighter spokes and nipples, I don't notice any "weight savings." But I do notice how stable it is and never have any troulbe with it! That's the most important thing for me. Of course, YMMV! Good Luck! :eek::banana::butt:

[Davist]

I'm a heavy-ish guy as well (195) and went with 24 2x front and 28 3x back 14/15 db with secure lock alloy nipples on archetypes and BHS hubs (extra wide front) and couldn't be happier. Laced them myself this spring.. Have held up well and true. 4k miles.

right at ~1600g

have fun!

[dvancleve]

Use the Record hubs...if ya want light and durable, use tubulars.

BUT use lightish rims, Archtypes or Pacenti rims..use Revolution spokes front(3 cross) and left side rear, 14/15 elsewhere with the understanding that these are less reliable than the same rims with 14-15 all around. If you DO use 28 rear, lace 3 cross, inside pulling.

Don't make the 3 strikes and you are out, mistake. Light rim, thin spokes, too few spokes.

Sorry, no such thing as a free lunch.

Thanks for your input, Peter. Tubulars may make for lighter, stronger wheels but the tires are too fragile and expensive for me to even consider them. By saying that I wasn't looking for light and indestructible, I thought I was conceding that lunch won't be free ;)

Looking at your 3 strikes statement, you seem to be saying that any two of those things should be okay, just not all 3. Is that correct? Which of the currently available wide clinchers (A32, Archetype, Belgium, SL23, XC-279) would you consider to be "light"? Do you think the offset rear version of the A23 makes up for any of that rim's shortcomings? Also, is the reason for 2.0/1.8 drive side spokes primarily to avoid windup? I have never tried Lasers or similar on a rear drive side, but it seems like the windup could be managed if that's the only concern.

Doug

[donevwil]

Similar boat here, I'm 230-240 and although I'm not looking for light weight I do want a set of reduced spoke count wheels for packing an S&S travel bike. Every builder I asked or received feedback from balked at anything south of 28/32 and many stood fast on 36/36 and/or heavy touring rims. For my needs the consensus was to get a set of Campy factory built wheels, lighter, durable, low spoke count, 240lb weight rating on most and cheaper to boot.

[dvancleve]

Similar boat here, I'm 230-240 and although I'm not looking for light weight I do want a set of reduced spoke count wheels for packing an S&S travel bike. Every builder I asked or received feedback from balked at anything south of 28/32 and many stood fast on 36/36 and/or heavy touring rims. For my needs the consensus was to get a set of Campy factory built wheels, lighter, durable, low spoke count, 240lb weight rating on most and cheaper to boot.

I picked up a used bike with Fulcrum Racing 1's on it. I don't have many miles on them, but they feel solid for sure. My very first ride I hit something, never saw it, that blew out my front tire. Since I took out a rear AC-420 on a pothole not too long ago, I was concerned about wheel damage but it was fine. I am not sure I buy the (relatively) high spoke counts only argument, but certainly nothing that can be built from normal components can go as low on spoke count as the factory build wheels and be trustworthy. IHMO, of course ;)

Doug

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks for your input, Peter. Tubulars may make for lighter, stronger wheels but the tires are too fragile and expensive for me to even consider them. By saying that I wasn't looking for light and indestructible, I thought I was conceding that lunch won't be free ;)

Looking at your 3 strikes statement, you seem to be saying that any two of those things should be okay, just not all 3. Is that correct? Which of the currently available wide clinchers (A32, Archetype, Belgium, SL23, XC-279) would you consider to be "light"? Do you think the offset rear version of the A23 makes up for any of that rim's shortcomings? Also, is the reason for 2.0/1.8 drive side spokes primarily to avoid windup? I have never tried Lasers or similar on a rear drive side, but it seems like the windup could be managed if that's the only concern.

Doug

Also DT 440. OC is a great idea. A23 has a lot of QC issues. Archetype and Pacenti rims. HED nice but overpriced for Asian rims, imho.

14-15 drive side rear to provide enough support for the rim in the highest stress place. Lasers or Revs are too thin, flex too much.

450 grams for a clincher rim is about as light as you should go...440, Archtype, Pacenti.

[rnhood]

At your weight, consider the Shimano DA C24 - or even the C35 wheels. Not cheap by any measure but they are robust and do not have a weight limit. The C24 wheels weigh about 1400 grams which is not the lightest wheels you can get but, they make up for it by being reasonably aero with low spoke count, light weight rims and the Shimano hubs need no introduction to quality. I particularly like them in the mountains but ride them all the time now.

[rain dogs]

Wow. Whole rear wheel with lasers? That's ballsy. I ripped the hell out of a rear wheel, record silver with all lasers and I weight 140lbs. Granted, they were laced to flimsy Niobium rims, but again, I'm pretty light.

Listen to OP, build good sort of light-ish wheels for you, not just light wheels. I would think at least use cx-rays if you want to take the risk of pushing lightweight, but not lasers (I know they're the "same" but they're not the same)

Actually, 32/32 records can be plenty light. Or scour ebay for a 28h front hub.

[dvancleve]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i229/dvancleve/9d54086646a71fd4bc2ca8bb472a201d.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i229/dvancleve/231fe7edb21472a2793e6bb88bbc838f.jpg

They are actually lighter than the Hope Mono RS hubs that I thought might be cool to try. The front is a bit heavier than a White T11, but the rear is just as light. Any of the other "cool" hubs that might be significantly lighter are so expensive that I would never get them anyway. Using these would appear to only result in wheels that were heavier by the weight of four Sapim Lasers with alloy nipples, give or take. I know OP's take on the smart way to lace these, anybody have any non-stupid ideas (ie. possibly damaging to the hubs) on the lightest way to lace these using all the spoke holes? Any thoughts on using Stans Alpha 340 rims? They are the lightest and they have a wide inside width, and if they're okay at all they should be okay with 32 spokes…

Doug

[oldpotatoe]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i229/dvancleve/9d54086646a71fd4bc2ca8bb472a201d.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i229/dvancleve/231fe7edb21472a2793e6bb88bbc838f.jpg

They are actually lighter than the Hope Mono RS hubs that I thought might be cool to try. The front is a bit heavier than a White T11, but the rear is just as light. Any of the other "cool" hubs that might be significantly lighter are so expensive that I would never get them anyway. Using these would appear to only result in wheels that were heavier by the weight of four Sapim Lasers with alloy nipples, give or take. I know OP's take on the smart way to lace these, anybody have any non-stupid ideas (ie. possibly damaging to the hubs) on the lightest way to lace these using all the spoke holes? Any thoughts on using Stans Alpha 340 rims? They are the lightest and they have a wide inside width, and if they're okay at all they should be okay with 32 spokes…

Doug

Purdy hubs..Stans rims are really junque. I built about 6 and all had spoke pull thru even with low-ish tension..like sub 100 KGF..

DT440

[macaroon]

At your weight, there is no point in trying to save weight in the wheels. You'd be better off using sturdy spokes and buying a lighter seatpost or saddle or something.

I wouldnt use velocity or stans. Both have failed me. I currently use Archetypes with 32/28 spokes (2.0/1.8 on the rear) and they are solid! I am a fair bit lighter than you, but I've ridden them over big potholes and big stones and they havent flinched. They are the only rims I'll consider now. Pacentis are supposed to be good, but they are more expensive where I am.

I used to use Stans laced 24/28 with light spokes. They flexed alot and I weighed about 70kg. Plus tyres popped off the rim. And they wore down really quickly because the sidewalls are so thin.

[notoriousdjw]

I have experience with some of the light rims discussed here including a set of Alpha 340s laced to R45 hubs with Revolution spokes, Alpha 340s with Revolution on the NDS and DT Comps on the DS, Alpha 400s laced with DT Supercomps, and A23 laced with DT Comps. All are 32h builds but even with 32h and even weighing less than you (180) I found the revolutions to be too light when paired with the 340s. The rear wheel would rub the brake under hard effort. I never had any spokes pull through but did have cracking around the drive-side spokes with the original 340.

Stans has since increases spoke-bed thickness and I switched to Alpha 400s and haven't had any further problems. The A23s have been solid and have been used as road/cross wheels as have the alpha 400s with no issues. All were built by me to 100-110 kgf.

All I can say based on my experience is that *I* wouldn't use Alpha 340s as a rear rim, wouldn't use Revolutions on a rear wheel, and wouldn't go below 24/28h for myself unless the rims are carbon. There is no need for DT Comp spokes as long as you use Supercomp or Cx-ray. Also realize that at some point the weight reductions are a zero sum game and stealing grams from lower spoke counts requires a stronger and heavier rim. This tradeoff might make sense for aerodynamics but the wheels will weigh the roughly the same.

[redir]

I'm 6'4" at 210lbs right now and I break spokes on all my light weight wheels. The only wheels I don't break spokes on are the 32 spoke 3x wheels so for me that is my new standard in as light as I can go. THose were all rear wheels too so I think I agree with you that the front can be built lighter.

Good luck.

[cmg]

Had a pair of stans 340 laced to some bikehubsore hubs 28/32. I weigh 195-200 and the rear cracked after about 500 miles. had the same hub laced to a xr200 32 hole rim rear, haven't had any problems and it's over 500 miles. you can use a lighter rim on the front, a stans 340 28 hole with thin spokes but the rear needs to be over 400grams, 32 hole, use sapim race or dt swiss competitions 3x on both sides. not a fan of the low spoke count wheelsets. Usually it's a heavy rim with fewer spokers and a carbon tubed hub to save weight. better to use a lighter rim with lots of spokes, hub weight doesn't effect rotating weight as much.

[Gaucho410]

Chiming in, you do have two real avenues to go:

1. Custom wheels - I'm a big fan of triplet lacing, however it does limit the number of hubs you can use, because a lot of manufacturers will void your warranty if you skip holes, and triplet works best with extremely broad NDS bracing angles relative to the DS. If you don't have that, you counterintuitively wind up with extremely tight NDS spokes that poor leverage relative to the rim, and more often than not have to loosen your DS spokes below the maximum rim specification, which is less than ideal. I like using White T11s for triplet lacing best, however they are a bit chunky, weight-wise. A 24h triplet rear and a 24h standard front may work out well, with good, thick spokes, otherwise a traditional 28/32 or 24/28 would probably be up to snuff.

2. Stock wheels - After a certain point, factory designed wheels do start to pull ahead in terms of aerodynamics, weight and can be just as strong as custom wheels even with the lower spoke counts. There are lots of tricks you can take advantage of in a system wheelset that you just can't do with a custom job.

[rain dogs]

They are...heavier by the weight of four Sapim Lasers... anybody have any non-stupid ideas on the lightest way to lace these using all the spoke holes? Any thoughts on using Stans Alpha 340 rims?

I think that using lasers, alloy nipples and light rims on those wheels for someone your weight doesn't qualify as a "non-stupid idea." I'm being blunt because not being blunt isn't working. (trying to be honest not a dink)

You are free to build any wheels you want, but you're asking they be not stupid for your use (and limited to non tubulars, non carbon etc.)

Again, I'm 140 and I ripped apart a record 32 hole, laser and light rim build. I'm also easy on equipment, but I do ride hard.

Why the obsession with light wheels when you're not a light rider? Why not be obsessed with good wheels?

[donevwil]

I think that using lasers and light rims on those wheels for someone your weight doesn't qualify as a "non-stupid idea." I'm being blunt because not being blunt isn't working.

You are free to build any wheels you want, but you're asking they be not stupid for your use (and limited to non tubulars, non carbon etc.)

Again, I'm 140 and I ripped apart a record 32 hole, laser and light rim build. I'm also easy on equipment, but I do ride hard.

Why the obsession with light wheels when you're not a light rider? Why not be obsessed with good wheels?

Well there's yet another caveat, who builds good wheels for heavy weights and is willing to think outside the cookie-cutter, "add a few spokes, use thicker gauge spokes on the same ≤ 450g rim build they'd recommend for a 140 pounder" box.

I'm not talking light-weight, just something other than 28/32 3-cross at best. Surely there are other options out there on the custom front.

[Gaucho410]

I do tend to think that parts selection is only really part of the answer; so much of it comes down to build quality. You can get away with some pretty surprisingly low spoke counts if the spokes are as tight as they ought to be, the tension is even and they're stress-relieved properly.

The default attitude of "32/32 and forget it" does spring I think as much from how hard it is to screw up that kind of build as it does from how strong the build natively is.

[dvancleve]

Well there's yet another caveat, who builds good wheels for heavy weights and is willing to think outside the cookie-cutter, "add a few spokes, use thicker gauge spokes on the same ≤ 450g rim build they'd recommend for a 140 pounder" box.

I'm not talking light-weight, just something other than 28/32 3-cross at best. Surely there are other options out there on the custom front.

^^This ^^

No doubt it results in fine wheels, but it can't be the only way. If decreasing spoke crossing increases bracing angle even slightly (which I believe it does), why not something like 3x non-DS and 2x DS? Still pretty conservative, right? What about 1x heads in on the DS, particularly if fewer than 32 spokes?

Doug

[cmg]

use light rim tape, tires and tubes. Conti supersonic on the front, schwallbe ultremo for the rear and 65g tubes. If your rims will accept velo dots use them, lighter than tape. post your build.

[rw229]

Just another opinion...

I'm 6'2 ~230, fairly fit, but definitely not joining the tour anytime soon.

I've been riding Campy Neutrons (non-ultra) for years and have never had an issue or a need to true them. They're under 1600g and fairly stiff. The low spoke count/proprietary has always in the back of my mind, but they spin up/roll fast and have proven to be 100% solid.

If I were building, I would go at least 28/32 with quality rims/hubs/spokes and they would probably weigh more.

[aaronka]

I think 24/28 is the better option if you racing. If training or CX or commuting the 28/32 would be better.

I love Hed Belgiums, wide, fast and strong. And the Dura Ace c24's are very good too, I ride each of those wheelsets a lot.

[dvancleve]

I have experience with some of the light rims discussed here including a set of Alpha 340s laced to R45 hubs with Revolution spokes, Alpha 340s with Revolution on the NDS and DT Comps on the DS, Alpha 400s laced with DT Supercomps, and A23 laced with DT Comps. All are 32h builds but even with 32h and even weighing less than you (180) I found the revolutions to be too light when paired with the 340s. The rear wheel would rub the brake under hard effort. I never had any spokes pull through but did have cracking around the drive-side spokes with the original 340.

Stans has since increases spoke-bed thickness and I switched to Alpha 400s and haven't had any further problems. The A23s have been solid and have been used as road/cross wheels as have the alpha 400s with no issues. All were built by me to 100-110 kgf.

All I can say based on my experience is that *I* wouldn't use Alpha 340s as a rear rim, wouldn't use Revolutions on a rear wheel, and wouldn't go below 24/28h for myself unless the rims are carbon. There is no need for DT Comp spokes as long as you use Supercomp or Cx-ray. Also realize that at some point the weight reductions are a zero sum game and stealing grams from lower spoke counts requires a stronger and heavier rim. This tradeoff might make sense for aerodynamics but the wheels will weigh the roughly the same.

Hey notoriousdjw, I think I might've missed your post. I was just going to ask about Alpha 400s when I saw this. They're a fair bit heavier than Alpha 340s but still lighter than anything else. Rereading your post here, I'm wondering about an Alpha 340 front rim and an Alpha 400 rear wheel... They're quite a bit more moolah then the best price on Archetypes, but a pair like that is 132g lighter than a pair of Archetypes (assuming relatively accurate posted weights). Also, are you saying you wouldn't use Revolution/Laser spokes at all on a rear wheel or just never on the drive side?

Thanks, Doug

[dvancleve]

On the rear non-DS, which is more important, increased bracing angle or tension that's closer to DS? I know that current thought on decreasing non-DS bracing angle significantly through hub design to help equalize tension is that it's a bad idea. I'm thinking more along the lines of heads out versus heads in radial (or in this case 1x) lacing.

Thanks again, Doug

[Gaucho410]

Generally speaking, more bracing angle is better - increased tension differential does make it harder to make a wheel that will stay true, however it's still quite doable to achieve.

[notoriousdjw]

Hey notoriousdjw, I think I might've missed your post. I was just going to ask about Alpha 400s when I saw this. They're a fair bit heavier than Alpha 340s but still lighter than anything else. Rereading your post here, I'm wondering about an Alpha 340 front rim and an Alpha 400 rear wheel... They're quite a bit more moolah then the best price on Archetypes, but a pair like that is 132g lighter than a pair of Archetypes (assuming relatively accurate posted weights). Also, are you saying you wouldn't use Revolution/Laser spokes at all on a rear wheel or just never on the drive side?

Thanks, Doug

Doug,

I did lace one of my (spoke-hole crack) replacement 340s as a disc front wheel for my Salsa. It was 32 spokes using supercomps and served me well for maybe 2500 miles until the bike was stolen. Rear was an Alpha 400 and I did a Pittsburgh-to-DC trip on the GAP and C&O trails (300 miles of railtrail and slightly rough doubletrack). On the GAP trip the bike weighed about 40lbs all loaded up with panniers.

One thing about Stans is that they always seem to go on sale late in the season around Nov/Dec so keep an eye on ebay and the usual big internet stores. I never paid more than $85 for a Stans rim and hopefully I never will. Outside Outfitters has them currently for $82 (http://www.outsideoutfitters.com/p-25309-stan-39-s-notubes-ztr-alpha-400-rims.aspx?variantID=77304&gclid=CLa16-mKq8ECFbBDMgod0xUASg).

As far as Revolutions go, I did build one wheel with Comps on the DS and revolutions on the NDS but they didn't feel as sturdy as building with all Comps or all Supercomps. Nothing bad happened and they never broke but they were harder to true because the spokes tended to wind up. If you want 4g spokes, CX-rays would be a better choice in all respects except price.