OT: Help deciding on a new car Audi vs Subaru

[Hank Scorpio]

I am in the process of buying a new wagon and I am bouncing between used A4 wagons 2011-2012 and the Subaru Outback 2014-2013. I really like the A4 but to get it in my price range I need to buy a model with 3x,xxx miles compared to the subie with less than 10. I know practicality and financially the Sub is the better choice the Sub is the better choice but the A4 looks so good. I am definitely concerned about the reliability of the A4, some of the owner reviews on Edmunds show increased oil consumption and other minor issues but nothing too catastrophic. I am coming from a 09 Mini Clubman that has been a minor nightmare to own so I would like to buy something that will be solid.

Thanks!
James

[bargainguy]

James - I absolutely love Audi from a design and aesthetic standpoint. I often wonder what today's Audis would look like had chief designer Peter Schreyer stayed on - he abdicated to Hyundai and was responsible for their "fluidic sculpture" design or whatever on the latest generation.

That having been said, I want no part of replacing relatively new rings and pistons no matter how nice the car is otherwise. I vote Subie.

[oldpotatoe]

I am in the process of buying a new wagon and I am bouncing between used A4 wagons 2011-2012 and the Subaru Outback 2014-2013. I really like the A4 but to get it in my price range I need to buy a model with 3x,xxx miles compared to the subie with less than 10. I know practicality and financially the Sub is the better choice the Sub is the better choice but the A4 looks so good. I am definitely concerned about the reliability of the A4, some of the owner reviews on Edmunds show increased oil consumption and other minor issues but nothing too catastrophic. I am coming from a 09 Mini Clubman that has been a minor nightmare to own so I would like to buy something that will be solid.

Thanks!
James

Ya only live once, get the car(bike) that 'sings' to you.

[rugbysecondrow]

I went through a similar process a few years back, the Audi a3 or the Subaru WRX. I chose the Subaru. I still like the Audi, but I have some friends who are not very happy with their Audi and they indicated they wouldn't buy one again. This is very different than Subaru owners who seem to love and continue to buy Subarus after owning one.

I love my Subaru. 30K miles in and zero issues.

Best of luck.

Paul

[cfox]

Get the Subaru. I really like Audis, and have owned 3, but the truth is they have electrical gremlins that show up around 50k miles. I'm a drive-it-till-it-dies guy, and my A3 is finally getting there. It's a fun car and unreal in the snow, but the quirky electrical stuff is annoying. Some days the sun roof won't close, fuses blow every once in a while, the door locks have a mind of their own. Weird stuff, and similar things happened on all 3 that I've owned.

[Hank Scorpio]

Ugh this is what I expected to hear. I guess Outback it is.

Wish me luck I will need it!

Thanks for the quick replies
James

[oldpotatoe]

Ugh this is what I expected to hear. I guess Outback it is.

Wish me luck I will need it!

Thanks for the quick replies
James

And when you drive your subaru around, everytime you see an Audi..yer gonna say to yourself, "_________", aren't ya?

[Cat3roadracer]

Audi's younger brother- VW.

[CNY rider]

My brother and I went through a similar process years ago.
I got the Subaru.
He got the audi.
My Subaru just turned 8 years old. I'm a very satisfied customer and plan to get 4 more years out of my Outback, and then will probably get another one.

He leased his Audi and couldn't wait for the day he turned it back in.

[SlackMan]

And when you drive your subaru around, everytime you see an Audi..yer gonna say to yourself, "_________", aren't ya?

Is the ______________ = "I'm saving $10,000 in maintenance and repair costs?"

[ntb1001]

If you're buying new and not keeping it over 5 years....go Audi. ..otherwise Subaru is the better choice especially used. Audi/VW vehicles are incredibly expensive to repair.

[oldpotatoe]

Is the ______________ = "I'm saving $10,000 in maintenance and repair costs?"

Doubt it's $10,000 for every Audi when compared to every subaru.

Depends on if the buy has any emotion involved..the OP said he really liked Audi..I could have bought a subaru when I plunked the $ for my VW Jetta wagon but I couldn't get past the 'plastic-y-ness' of the subaru in spite of the 4WD..it was cheaper too. Wife could have gotten a Golf in 2000 but got a New Beetle..still have it, BTW-almost no issues in 14 years.

Some people buy mini-vans too.

[Daveyk]

Do you go to Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts?

There is your answer.

[Dirtdiggler]

Audi requires premium gas and Subaru only regular. Been there with an A4 and now own a 2014 Outback. Also the Gen 4 outback has the new roof rack design, paddle shifters for a bit of spirited driving and pretty good gas mileage. Save your money and spend it on bike parts. Resale value for sure is Subaru. Now Subaru are not perfect cars as they are dealing with the oil consumption lawsuit, but Audi also has their oil sludge problems too. In any case the wife is happy not seeing the Audi dealership anymore, but we miss their waiting room with fresh Starbuck coffee machine.
dirt diggler

[Hank Scorpio]

Do you go to Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts?

There is your answer.

Neither I don't like coffee but I do have a Vitamix.

[HenryA]

Subaru.

As attractive as I find the Audis, I consider them to be high maintenance and expensive to keep, and at no real advantage other than looks, which is merely a subjective feature.

VW, Audis parent, has a reputation for over technical solutions and strange reliability problems. My son briefly owned a Jetta. The fancy ignition key stopped working. The dealer wanted 350 bucks for a new one. It's stuff like that why I'll never consider anything they make, even if they do appeal otherwise.

My wife has her second Subaru and we both love it.

[gemship]

I can't help you make a decision but I will offer my recent vehicle buying experience.

A month ago I destroyed my 2006 chevy silverado fleet truck with zero options. This truck was in awesome shape with low miles and very minor surface rust on the frame only. Long story but the truck took a saltwater bath and although it could be repaired that would cost literally half it's value with no end in site. So I was without a vehicle and really needed one for my work. I thought long and hard about getting away from a truck for a more sporty ride and did lust after a Subaru/older model wagon wrx type and considered a more luxurious outback. I was in the used vehicle market and looked stuff in the 6k to 11k dollar range. Well I did my research and figured I wasn't spending enough for a wrx and a bit leery about the outback models. Why???? Well for me personally I didn't like reading about head gasket issues, the all wheel drive eating up tires and various other components...just some high maintenance costs. Plus I really need a truck for what I do. I go commercial clamming and despite being able to tow with a Subie I just thought them to low to the ground and I also like to find free firewood. I didn't want to exeed tongue and towing capacities. So I wound up with a used GMC Sierra SLE with the Z71 offroad stuff. This truck is a beast and looks great. It's an 02' and has some rust issues on the frame but what a nice riding vehicle. It has the 5.3 liter V8 and really takes off. Power everything and I never had four wheel drive... even contemplating getting a plow, lol.

I don't know about you guys with your little cars, ha,ha. Well I don't have a long commute to work thru the snow so there you go just my experience.

[gemship]

Subaru.

As attractive as I find the Audis, I consider them to be high maintenance and expensive to keep, and at no real advantage other than looks, which is merely a subjective feature.

VW, Audis parent, has a reputation for over technical solutions and strange reliability problems. My son briefly owned a Jetta. The fancy ignition key stopped working. The dealer wanted 350 bucks for a new one. It's stuff like that why I'll never consider anything they make, even if they do appeal otherwise.

My wife has her second Subaru and we both love it.

I hear you with the Jetta problem but I think the Subies can get expensive like that too. Cars/Trucks I resign myself to the fact that they are rust buckets and crapshoots. For myself never putting more than 10k a year on a vehicle I really like the ride of this GMC. It's like a Cady on steroids.

[p nut]

We love our '13 Outback. Had it for 2 years now and zero problems. Does pretty well off road as well with almost 9" of ground clearance. I would get the '14 though. Some have reported oil consumption issues and some sort of ring seating issue on the '13's.

The dealer wanted 350 bucks for a new one. It's stuff like that why I'll never consider anything they make, even if they do appeal otherwise. .

To be fair, I think Subaru keys are around $200-250. Most new keys are fairly expensive now a days.

[Daveyk]

Tesla then

Neither I don't like coffee but I do have a Vitamix.

[tumbler]

I'd say Suburu. Almost every Suburu owner I know loves their car and would buy another when the time comes. Almost every Audi owner I know loved their car until the problem$ started and wouldn't buy another one. A good friend of mine leased an A3 and hated it with a passion, despite all of the repairs being covered by the dealership. Audis are definitely sexy, but sometimes the sexy ones are also crazy and not worth the effort.

[p nut]

Audis are definitely sexy, but sometimes the sexy ones are also crazy and not worth the effort.

http://youtu.be/MH_PANCU9oQ

[zap]

I am in the process of buying a new wagon and I am bouncing between used A4 wagons 2011-2012 and the Subaru Outback 2014-2013. I really like the A4 but to get it in my price range I need to buy a model with 3x,xxx miles compared to the subie with less than 10. I know practicality and financially the Sub is the better choice the Sub is the better choice but the A4 looks so good. I am definitely concerned about the reliability of the A4, some of the owner reviews on Edmunds show increased oil consumption and other minor issues but nothing too catastrophic. I am coming from a 09 Mini Clubman that has been a minor nightmare to own so I would like to buy something that will be solid.

Thanks!
James

Neither Audi or Subaru will be a significant step up from the Mini in terms of reliability.

If you want a wagon, check out lightly used Acura TSX wagons.

[firerescuefin]

Have owned an A4 for 7 years. The below is word for word my experience. The drivetrain and all weather ability have been awesome though.


Get the Subaru. I really like Audis, and have owned 3, but the truth is they have electrical gremlins that show up around 50k miles. I'm a drive-it-till-it-dies guy, and my A3 is finally getting there. It's a fun car and unreal in the snow, but the quirky electrical stuff is annoying. Some days the sun roof won't close, fuses blow every once in a while, the door locks have a mind of their own. Weird stuff, and similar things happened on all 3 that I've owned.

[r_mutt]

The problem with the new Outback is that it is so sinfully ugly, it almost doesn't compensate for it's strong points. Btw- it's so tall it's closer to a SUV rather than a wagon.

[witcombusa]

Neither Audi or Subaru will be a significant step up from the Mini in terms of reliability.




This is not my experience comparing two Mini's to one Subaru. Both of the Cooper S's had a couple fairly significant issues by 40k. My WRX has had ZERO now @ 50k.

[p nut]

This is not my experience comparing two Mini's to one Subaru. Both of the Cooper S's had a couple fairly significant issues by 40k. My WRX has had ZERO now @ 50k.

Subaru has come a long was in terms of reliability. I wouldn't put them in the same category with Audi and Mini.

I didn't buy one back in the day, but if they bring back the Brat, I'd buy one today!

[saab2000]

Cars are money black holes..... I'm going to try to do the "Millionaire Next Door" thing and run mine until they won't run. Then get a new one and run it until it won't run and by then I probably won't be driving anymore.

I doubt I'll ever buy a fancy car again. I'd probably go with the Subaru if this were my purchase.

It's been extremely liberating the past few years not having any car payments.

[soulspinner]

Is the ______________ = "I'm saving $10,000 in maintenance and repair costs?"

;)

[biker72]

***

[Ken Robb]

We sold our 2004 BMW 330i ZHP and bought a 2014 Mazda 3 Touring S sedan w/2.5L engine/auto trans and we both love it. It drives/handles like a German sedan, averages almost 30 mpg on regular, and is very well put together: no squeaks or rattles and all the seams line up perfectly. They also offer the 3 as a hatchback that might be all the "station wagon" some folks need.The 3 series was a totally new model for 2014 so I don't think there will be many on the used market.

Before buying a newish used car you should check available deals on new cars. Since this is the time 2015 cars are introduced there are some really attractive prices on 2014 models.

[MattTuck]

I'm currently driving my second subaru. For the money, it is hard to beat them if you want AWD.

If you don't need/want AWD, I think there are better cars out there. I don't think the subaru's are as polished inside the cabin as many others.

Like many things, it is up to you to prioritize what is important to you. Subaru designs cars for outdoor enthusiasts, and I think that group values utility more than cosmetics (both inside and outside the cabin).

Just my opinion, and I'm a relatively happy subaru owner, and will probably get a 3.6R legacy or outback next year.

[Ralph]

You have to check real carefully what you pay for a used vehicle. And don't just assume it's always cheaper to buy used, just because you keep hearing that. In some cases, for popular vehicles, you are buying a vehicle with 1/2 to 2/3 of it's life left, but paying 5/8-3/4 the cost of buying new. That makes no sense to do. And a new car has a warranty, rebates to help with down payment, new tires, new suspension parts, new AC, new trans, etc. Lower financing costs, and better terms, if you don't pay cash. If you are making payments, I would rather pay 5 years (at lower interest rates) for 100% of a new ncar with all new parts and warranty, than 3 years on a car with only 5/8 of it's life left. I figured this out for myself a long time ago. I'm always amused to see used cars on the Honda dealership lot, a year or so old, priced higher than I can bargain for a new one. But there are people who only buy used....so there is one there for them. Salesmen get a kick nout of this.

When you buy a new car, you are buying 100% of it's life. When you buy a used car, someone else already used up part of it's life, you're only buying what's left, and much if that maybe needing repair or replacement. And then there is the argument....."I'm avoiding the high drepreciation years" buying used. Sure....but those high depreciation years included the time when all of the car was new, with new everything. Buying used, you get the car about the time when it needs some money spent on it. (tires, alignments, brakes, struts, etc)

The only vehicle it makes sense to me to buy used is a high mileage vehicle you can buy for a couple thousand dollars, immediately spend a couple thousand fixing it up, then drive it about 100,000 miles, until it has maybe 200,000 on it, then sell it for $1000 for some kid to drive to school. That's cheap driving. Most folks won't do that. The usedcar market for fairly new cars in fairly efficient, they know you'll over pay. The used market for hi mileage is not so strong and efficient, so there are bargains there.

[Hank Scorpio]

Tesla then

GM Chrysler! I didn't say blendtec!!

[cinema]

An Audi/BMW purchase requires you be a cyclist-hating-dipstick, at least around these parts.

[Burnette]

It was time for my wife to replace her 2005 Nissan Murano SUV, she wanted a sedan. Family member has a Camry, we don't like it, so that was out. 2014 Accord Sport is a killer deal, can be had for $21,000 stripped with a stick (manual). Mrs drove a $25,000 Accord Sport with an auto, sharp looking, the dealer said he would add aftermarket leather and remote engine start for the same money. Bazinga!
Then my wife drove the newly designed 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5 Limited (sedan version of the Outback, same on the inside other than the back end). Not a fair fight, the Subaru was five grand more, but wow, they have done a great job upgrading the interior. The infotainment system was much better than the Accord's too. AWD isn't necessary but it handles so much better because of it. The Mrs isn't a speeder, the confidence it inspired had her hauling through the curves, it drove way better than the Accord and had a compliant ride and with sure handling. They didn't have the color she wanted so we ordered her one, will take ten to fifteen weeks to get here. We got every option except the Eyesight feature.
I have a 2007 VW Jetta and let me tell you, everything you hear about german cars happened to me. The air only blows max cool or max hot, no inbetween (happened when out of warranty), to fix, $500, a piece that actuates the adjustable armrest broke, whole console has to be replaced, to fix, $280, both key fobs broke at the ring hole, to replace, $203 apiece.
I emailed VW a few years ago about my car falling apart, they offered $750 on a new one. The new versions are the same or worse looking at VW forums.
I emailed Subaru after we ordered the Legacy to give my thoughts about options packages, next day got an email from a Subie rep, gave me a vehicle order number and the offer to email him personally anytime for updates on the car's build.
He said he would pass along my thoughts and that they do use such information and value their cutomer's opinions.
Consumer Reports always rates Subaru highly and two years ago it was the only manufacturer that had every vehicle they made rated as "Recommended". Can't wait to get ours. Go look at and drive one, the refresh of the new interiors along with the improved ride and handling will make it competitive with what's out there.
You can find for cheaper and a decent car to boot, that Accord Sport is the deal of year, cannot beat it anywhere for money verus what you get, and it's not a bad car by any means.
Lastly, I like Audies too, but wow, they are way overpriced. We have a new small Audi A3 at the local dealer going for $41,000. Really? Add in some reliability issues and I think I would take my money someplace else.

[mgm777]

You have to check real carefully what you pay for a used vehicle. And don't just assume it's always cheaper to buy used, just because you keep hearing that. In some cases, for popular vehicles, you are buying a vehicle with 1/2 to 2/3 of it's life left, but paying 5/8-3/4 the cost of buying new. That makes no sense to do. And a new car has a warranty, rebates to help with down payment, new tires, new suspension parts, new AC, new trans, etc. Lower financing costs, and better terms, if you don't pay cash. If you are making payments, I would rather pay 5 years (at lower interest rates) for 100% of a new ncar with all new parts and warranty, than 3 years on a car with only 5/8 of it's life left. I figured this out for myself a long time ago. I'm always amused to see used cars on the Honda dealership lot, a year or so old, priced higher than I can bargain for a new one. But there are people who only buy used....so there is one there for them. Salesmen get a kick nout of this.

When you buy a new car, you are buying 100% of it's life. When you buy a used car, someone else already used up part of it's life, you're only buying what's left, and much if that maybe needing repair or replacement. And then there is the argument....."I'm avoiding the high drepreciation years" buying used. Sure....but those high depreciation years included the time when all of the car was new, with new everything. Buying used, you get the car about the time when it needs some money spent on it. (tires, alignments, brakes, struts, etc)

The only vehicle it makes sense to me to buy used is a high mileage vehicle you can buy for a couple thousand dollars, immediately spend a couple thousand fixing it up, then drive it about 100,000 miles, until it has maybe 200,000 on it, then sell it for $1000 for some kid to drive to school. That's cheap driving. Most folks won't do that. The usedcar market for fairly new cars in fairly efficient, they know you'll over pay. The used market for hi mileage is not so strong and efficient, so there are bargains there.

Ralph - I love your analysis and insight on this topic. You have obviously done your homework.

[oldpotatoe]

It was time for my wife to replace her 2005 Nissan Murano SUV, she wanted a sedan. Family member has a Camry, we don't like it, so that was out. 2014 Accord Sport is a killer deal, can be had for $21,000 stripped with a stick (manual). Mrs drove a $25,000 Accord Sport with an auto, sharp looking, the dealer said he would add aftermarket leather and remote engine start for the same money. Bazinga!
Then my wife drove the newly designed 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5 Limited (sedan version of the Outback, same on the inside other than the back end). Not a fair fight, the Subaru was five grand more, but wow, they have done a great job upgrading the interior. The infotainment system was much better than the Accord's too. AWD isn't necessary but it handles so much better because of it. The Mrs isn't a speeder, the confidence it inspired had her hauling through the curves, it drove way better than the Accord and had a compliant ride and with sure handling. They didn't have the color she wanted so we ordered her one, will take ten to fifteen weeks to get here. We got every option except the Eyesight feature.
I have a 2007 VW Jetta and let me tell you, everything you hear about german cars happened to me. The air only blows max cool or max hot, no inbetween (happened when out of warranty), to fix, $500, a piece that actuates the adjustable armrest broke, whole console has to be replaced, to fix, $280, both key fobs broke at the ring hole, to replace, $203 apiece.
I emailed VW a few years ago about my car falling apart, they offered $750 on a new one. The new versions are the same or worse looking at VW forums.
I emailed Subaru after we ordered the Legacy to give my thoughts about options packages, next day got an email from a Subie rep, gave me a vehicle order number and the offer to email him personally anytime for updates on the car's build.
He said he would pass along my thoughts and that they do use such information and value their cutomer's opinions.
Consumer Reports always rates Subaru highly and two years ago it was the only manufacturer that had every vehicle they made rated as "Recommended". Can't wait to get ours. Go look at and drive one, the refresh of the new interiors along with the improved ride and handling will make it competitive with what's out there.
You can find for cheaper and a decent car to boot, that Accord Sport is the deal of year, cannot beat it anywhere for money verus what you get, and it's not a bad car by any means.
Lastly, I like Audies too, but wow, they are way overpriced. We have a new small Audi A3 at the local dealer going for $41,000. Really? Add in some reliability issues and I think I would take my money someplace else.

No doubt. I parked my Jetta TDI JSW next to an A3 TDI...they look to be the same size except the Audi was almost twice the $..but it did have a leather interior and Nav.

[HenryA]

Ralph is on it!

And I'll add:

IMO, The two least expensive ways to own a car are buy a new moderate priced car that is proven reliable and drive it into the ground or buy multiple $2000-3000 cars and do the same (over and over). Being willing to drive unpopular/uncool models which are otherwise good and reliable is helpful.

The second method requires some mechanical knowledge and flexibility. The first, the ability to pay the initial price.

When you look at the money you spend over 10 years of driving, either method can be good.

[Corso]

I had an 02 A4, 1.8 turbo. Loved it.

Until the timing belt went (around 80 k) and blew the top end of the motor.

Google class action lawsuits against Audi.

Major trouble i had with the car: undersized oil pickup, clogged easily, Audi knew about it, didn’t recall.

Said timing belt issues.

Computers went haywire after motor blew, motor would die at any speed, any time.

Rear axle bearings: replaced too many to recall.

Window plastic pulley broke, messing up cable drive and motor. Weak link.

Stainless lower valance panels held on by cheap metal clips, guess what rusted? Check any older style A4, you’ll most lily see them without the wide shiny trim anymore.

Audi was HORRIBLE to deal with when it came to standing behind their product. German engineering my ass.

I do like the cars to look at, but I’d NEVER buy one again.

I’ve spoken to many many folks, including Audi salesmen and mechanics: Common statement: Never buy a used one. Buy new, sell before mileage gets high.

[Ken Robb]

An Audi/BMW purchase requires you be a cyclist-hating-dipstick, at least around these parts.

You don't get a dipstick with new BMW cars. :)

[rnhood]

My Audi was by far the worst car I ever owned. I was spending money on maintenance from day one.

On the other hand, the Outback appears to be a very nice car. I do not own one but the people I know with one really like them. They are not cheap but they tick all the right boxes it appears. I will be considering one at the end of this year.

[mistermo]

Ive had two A4s and now have an Outback.

The A4 avant was the most fun car I've owned. I did all sorts of tuning to the engine and it was a fun, fast, superb handling car and a blast to drive. It could keep up with my friends 911. The downside was the electrical gremlins of which others speak. By 75K miles, I was hemorrhaging $ on electrical repairs. Mind you, the modified engine ran like a top. The A4 was the car I hated to love.

The Subaru, by contrast, is the most boring and dull car I've ever had. I beat the hell out of it and treat it like a pickup truck. It's neglected, abused and still runs like a charm, except for leaky head gaskets which is also a chronic problem with the boxers. I don't worry about the oil leaks, and keep filling it with more oil and it keeps running. I bought it at 20K on the odometer and it now has 135K. The Outback is the car I love to hate.

This said, my next wagon will likely be a Volvo. Those V60s are hawt. (Or if VWoA ever brings the TDI Golf Allroad over, then that'll be it).

[Hank Scorpio]

My mini has been a pit almost since new. The water pump went and was replaced under warranty. Now it has an oil leak behind the vacuum pump and hot start abs code. Oh and two of the bars on the rear defroster never worked. It has a whirring noise that sounds like a wheel bearing but all the hubs feel tight when I inspect them. It has 122750 on the original clutch so that would be the next big investment in a car I am already upside down on. I have spent around 2000 in the past two years chasing the oil consumption issue.

I was really close to pulling the trigger on a TDI wagon but couldn't get past the VW reliability. I guess the Audi falls into the same category.

[Ken Robb]

Ive had two A4s and now have an Outback.



This said, my next wagon will likely be a Volvo. Those V60s are hawt. (Or if VWoA ever brings the TDI Golf Allroad over, then that'll be it).

I'm not sure a V-60 is going to be more reliable/cheaper to operate than an Audi. The service managers just have different accents. :)

[oldpotatoe]

Ive had two A4s and now have an Outback.

The A4 avant was the most fun car I've owned. I did all sorts of tuning to the engine and it was a fun, fast, superb handling car and a blast to drive. It could keep up with my friends 911. The downside was the electrical gremlins of which others speak. By 75K miles, I was hemorrhaging $ on electrical repairs. Mind you, the modified engine ran like a top. The A4 was the car I hated to love.

The Subaru, by contrast, is the most boring and dull car I've ever had. I beat the hell out of it and treat it like a pickup truck. It's neglected, abused and still runs like a charm, except for leaky head gaskets which is also a chronic problem with the boxers. I don't worry about the oil leaks, and keep filling it with more oil and it keeps running. I bought it at 20K on the odometer and it now has 135K. The Outback is the car I love to hate.

This said, my next wagon will likely be a Volvo. Those V60s are hawt. (Or if VWoA ever brings the TDI Golf Allroad over, then that'll be it).

2016 I think, Golf TDI 4Motion

[cnighbor1]

Audi versus Subaru
It depends on if you need4 wheel drive in the winter. traction control on the Audi will handle most winter conditions but for all a Subaru is the 1st choice
Look at Jetta TDI they a good alternate choice and 4dr sedan the better for cost

[velomonkey]

Audi drivers are almost always kind of pricks. Go to, say, Northern Virginia and little Mr. Junior Executive drives an A4 and acts like a jerk. The wagons are wicked small - even the A6 wagon, which you hardly see, is kind of small. The A4 is really small.

We went Volvo cross country - 2002, new day 1 - drove it to 170k miles and never once had an issue with it. It was fine when we sold it 10 years later, but both kids grew up in the back seat - which was tan leather - and it was done. Plus my wife scrapped the side on a garage. We sold it for 3.5k to some college kid. Used mobile 1 it's whole life.

We now have an XC90 - purchased it used, I don't like the car - she does. We do all the maintence on it - I also ride with the volvo senior tech - so he works on the car and I do what he says.

Subaru was supposed to be the new volvo - I have even been seeing some bike haters drive subaru - I don't get it, but some of them have been jerks.

Anyway, as far as a wagon goes - Volvo has been at it a long, long time.

[rounder]

I can't speak about Subarus since the last one I had was a 1984 wagon which was a good car, but boring.

We have two A4s. One I bought new in 2001 that now has over 130,000 miles, that my wife now drives and loves. It does not burn oil and never had electric problems. The only current problem is that it began leaking A/C refrigerant about two years ago, and we get it recharged in the Spring.

The other car is a 2011 that I bought new in 2010. I drive a lot and the car now has 120,000 miles. The only problem was oil consumption. The more miles I drove the more oil it consumed. It turned out that the oil was escaping around the rings. At about 80,000 miles, the dealer replaced the rings and pistons and the car has not lost any oil since. The dealer requested a "contribution" of $200 for the work, which I was glad to pay since the car was out of warranty. There have been no electric problems or other problems.

I like both A4s and have been happy with our dealer. I would advise anyone buying a new Audi to pay attention to any options because a loaded A4 can be an expensive car.

[bcroslin]

I don't know why you'd buy a used A4 wagon when you could buy a new VW Sportwagen. And I say that as someone who really likes Audi's and my dream car for a long time was a WRX wagon.

Now, if you were asking an opinion on an A6 Avant....

[Veloo]

I'm not part of this class action below as I'm north of the border but I am having this burning oil problem on my 2013 Impreza wagon.
Not too impressed with my Subaru since I got it. Oil light came on several times in the first year of owning, engine "sputters" sometimes like a manual transmission about to stall (mine is automatic) and the engine start VERY rough.
My wife had a VW Golf for a year before I got the Impreza and comparing to that, my first impression on driving my car off the lot was that it felt cheap. Door closing didn't feel as solid. Plastic felt thinner and loose.
Fuel economy was never impressive. Subaru claims 6.5 L/100 km for highway and 7.5 L/100 km city. Best highway I got was 7.5 L/100 km and my city driving is above 10 L/100 km.
As I wrote on forums and spoke to friends, more issues with other's Subarus came to light which surprised me since they seem to have a reputation for quality.
I was curious and riding on the AWD wave but after having it through a Canadian winter I don't think you really need it in a city where they plow regularly.
I also find it is not a smooth ride at higher speeds on the highway and a coworker had the same complaint about his Impreza.
My friend with an Outback wagon has large amount of white vapor/smoke coming from the exhaust pipe when starting up and a rear hatch that leaks now and then. His friend had issues with fuel economy.
My other friend leased a Forestor and said he was in and out of the dealership so much that it left a bad taste in his mouth and would never go back.

I'm currently running fuel consumption tests every 1000 km. Only did one test and it supposedly only came back with 0.7 litres of oil consumed which I'm told is within an acceptable tolerance. 0.7 litres just doesn't sound right to me.

One thing I also really hate is the damn dipstick. The tube you insert it into is very curvy so I think that contributes to a very difficult to read oil level. I never get a nice crisp, defined oil level line like I have with every other car I've owned. Drives me nuts especially with my burning oil problem.

Sorry to throw so much negativity at you but I just wanted you to be aware so as not to have to deal with the same kind of lemon that I obviously ended up with. Also didn't want you thinking that their quality record was as spotless as many may think.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/07/18/subaru-oil-burner-lawsuit/12859865/

[ceolwulf]

Audi :banana:

http://5000tq.com/audifanspics/albums/Ingolstadt/DSCN2753.sized.jpg

[Ken Robb]

my first impression on driving my car off the lot was that it felt cheap. Door closing didn't feel as solid. Plastic felt thinner and loose.

I also find it is not a smooth ride at higher speeds on the highway and a coworker had the same complaint about his Impreza.



One thing I also really hate is the damn dipstick. The tube you insert it into is very curvy so I think that contributes to a very difficult to read oil level. I never get a nice crisp, defined oil level line like I have with every other car I've owned.



rl]http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/07/18/subaru-oil-burner-lawsuit/12859865/[/url]
Did the car you took for a test drive feel better than the one you bought?
I have had similar experiences reading dip sticks on newer cars. On my MINI the stick is a spring-like coil that obviously has a circuitous route down to the oil pan but My BMW was a typical flat flexible piece of steel. I wonder if some of the smearing is due to the very low viscosity oils used in new cars running more freely on the sticks than my old 20w-50 Castrol. :)
[u

[jlwdm]

Audi drivers are almost always kind of pricks. ...



Really? Audi sold about 85k cars in the US in the the first 6 months of 2014, and you can lump all of the various owners together?

Jeff

[dogdriver]

OP: Have you seen the Hotness vs Crazy Matrix?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKWmFWRVLlU

Your decision involves the same general reasoning...

[mistermo]

2016 I think, Golf TDI 4Motion

So far, VW says no.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2014/10/volkswagen-golf-alltrack-ready-road-adventure.html

snip>>"Don’t expect the Golf Alltrack on US soil anytime soon, though it would make a good competitor for the Subaru XV Crosstrek."

http://blog.caranddriver.com/vw-makes-a-crossover-sportwagen-for-europe/

snip>>"We doubt that this Golf Alltrack will come to the U.S. market: Most of our Golfs come from Mexico, and VW doesn’t make the all-wheel-drive ones there. Ought they?"

[dgauthier]

I'm detecting a general theme starting to emerge . . . ;)

It sounds like you're going to avoid the Audi, Hank. You won't regret it.

Back a few years ago I had two friends with Audi's. One had endless trouble with his TT and finally lemon-lawed it. (Me: "Hey, how's your cool new car?" Him: "Oh, I don't wanna talk about that piece of s##t!") Another got rid of his new A4 after *the engine blew holes through the hood*. It was fixed under warranty, but jeez.

[thunderworks]

I am in the process of buying a new wagon and I am bouncing between used A4 wagons 2011-2012 and the Subaru Outback 2014-2013. I really like the A4 but to get it in my price range I need to buy a model with 3x,xxx miles compared to the subie with less than 10. I know practicality and financially the Sub is the better choice the Sub is the better choice but the A4 looks so good. I am definitely concerned about the reliability of the A4, some of the owner reviews on Edmunds show increased oil consumption and other minor issues but nothing too catastrophic. I am coming from a 09 Mini Clubman that has been a minor nightmare to own so I would like to buy something that will be solid.

Thanks!
James

My wife had a wonderful A4 in the late 1990's. We bought it new and loved it . . . until we started spending a fortune on it. At 97,000 miles the block cracked . . . the mechanic I used at the time advised me to sell it and buy any Japanese car. We're not "car heads" - just wanted a good, hopefully fun, but reliable car. I traded the Audi for a Subaru. No sex appeal - but I'm on my second Subaru now, and love the reliability. It's not fun to drive the way the Audi was, but it has been reliable. It goes anywhere. My bike fits in the back and it doesn't bust the budget.

YMMV

[Hank Scorpio]

I thought we had this wrapped up until a few posters brought up the oil consumption issue on the Subie. I was kicking tires today but it is too early in the month to make the best deal.

[pbarry]

Did the car you took for a test drive feel better than the one you bought?
I have had similar experiences reading dip sticks on newer cars. On my MINI the stick is a spring-like coil that obviously has a circuitous route down to the oil pan but My BMW was a typical flat flexible piece of steel. I wonder if some of the smearing is due to the very low viscosity oils used in new cars running more freely on the sticks than my old 20w-50 Castrol. :)
[u

Yes.

You, (and I), are old if we know what 20/50W means.. :beer:

[Veloo]

Maybe hit up the Audi and Subaru forums. I'm on this one myself.

https://www.toronto-subaru-club.com/

[velomonkey]

Really? Audi sold about 85k cars in the US in the the first 6 months of 2014, and you can lump all of the various owners together?

Jeff

Using 'big data' . . . yes.

[mistermo]

I thought we had this wrapped up until a few posters brought up the oil consumption issue on the Subie. I was kicking tires today but it is too early in the month to make the best deal.

Mine consumes lots of oil and leaks it too. Leaky head gaskets are a longtime achilles heel of the Subies. But I just keep a bunch of oil in the back and when it starts lurching, I top her off. Each year, I'm told they have this fixed and a few years later the gaskets start to leak. My local dealer told me that if I get the head gaskets replaced ($2K repair), they'd warranty them for life. At 135 or 140K miles, I don't know that I'd keep the car that much longer anyway. YMMV.

The Outback is boring and dull, but keeps on going. I've never driven a better car in the snow. (compared to A4, Touareg, W8, Wrangler, XC70, XC90, XC60, Explorer, Expedition)

[nmrt]

wonder what you guys would think if you saw a dude walk out of an audi donning a rapha kit.
anyway, i've always used VAG products for more than two decades. First two VWs and now an audi. I have been enamoured by the way they drive. This is the only reason why I buy them. Perhaps I am in the minority, but in my two decades of ownership, all my VAG cars have been nearly faultless. I have been to the mechanic mostly for scheduled maintenance. Yes, once there was a leak on the roof of my golf -- took about $250 to fix. And maybe a few issues here and there. But as i said, i would buy a VAG product in a heartbeat.

subarus, for me, do not have the driving soul (STI and WRX excluded).

[Ken Robb]

Yes.

You, (and I), are old if we know what 20/50W means.. :beer:

You don't need to rub it in. If 20w50 wasn't thick enough we could always add STP. :beer: Or, better yet, Motor Honey. I'm not making this up.

[don compton]

Just to show how ridiculous this comparison is, we just bought a 2012 Audi A7.
There's no way that you justify the purchase from an investment perspective, but, the car is just, incredible.Sorry, for you Subaru fans ( I have owned two ), but Audi is on a different level. It will cost you more to own an Audi, but it will cost more to own a nicer house. If you're worried about the costs of owning an Audi, don't buy one, or any German cars. Sorry for being so blunt.:confused:

[vqdriver]

I like my audi and will probably get an allroad or q to replace the van. I can't speak to reliability but am a higher mileage driver that includes a lot of rough city driving. 20,000 miles a year with a few road trips mixed in there. No problems at all. None.

[cetuximab]

OP: Have you seen the Hotness vs Crazy Matrix?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKWmFWRVLlU

Your decision involves the same general reasoning...

thanks

[rwsaunders]

I had a Subaru wagon years ago and it was as some have stated, pretty boring and not really a good mileage car. Reliability was good but fit and finish were so so. I've also had two A6 Avants (one in service now) that I purchased as certified lease returns and collectively put about 365,000 miles on them. Solid cars, great fit and finish, decent handling and perfomance, awesome in the snow but not really great mileage and repair costs can be another story.

If you don't need awd and space is not a major concern, perhaps look at a used Acrura TSX Sport Wagon as someone mentioned. The best car that I ever owned was a 1992 Acura Legend and I keep thinking that I might go back.

There was a rumor that you can drive an Audi without being a prick too btw...good thing that I found this thread. :butt:

[cetuximab]

The problem with the new Outback is that it is so sinfully ugly, it almost doesn't compensate for it's strong points. Btw- it's so tall it's closer to a SUV rather than a wagon.

I agree. Ugly. So tall. They have become too SUV like. I hate SUV's.

[velomonkey]

wonder what you guys would think if you saw a dude walk out of an audi donning a rapha kit.


For real, I saw that just last week.

[rockdoc]

Audi- Lease Only!

[rockdoc]

That's been my observation out on the road here too!

An Audi/BMW purchase requires you be a cyclist-hating-dipstick, at least around these parts.

[rockdoc]

Great to have deep enough pockets to buy, and then maintain, the Audi. But cost is also measured in down time, and occasionally getting stuck due to some electronic gremlin appearing at some random time, whether while driving to work, or out on some road trip. Those are the costs of owning german cars that I can't afford...

Just to show how ridiculous this comparison is, we just bought a 2012 Audi A7.
There's no way that you justify the purchase from an investment perspective, but, the car is just, incredible.Sorry, for you Subaru fans ( I have owned two ), but Audi is on a different level. It will cost you more to own an Audi, but it will cost more to own a nicer house. If you're worried about the costs of owning an Audi, don't buy one, or any German cars. Sorry for being so blunt.:confused:

[firerescuefin]

Just to show how ridiculous this comparison is, we just bought a 2012 Audi A7.
There's no way that you justify the purchase from an investment perspective, but, the car is just, incredible.Sorry, for you Subaru fans ( I have owned two ), but Audi is on a different level. It will cost you more to own an Audi, but it will cost more to own a nicer house. If you're worried about the costs of owning an Audi, don't buy one, or any German cars. Sorry for being so blunt.:confused:

We're not talking apples and oranges. We are talking about vehicles in the same class, that people are considering one vs. the other. You sound more like an Audi executive, and less like a car owner that has to deal with the logistics and costs of having a vehicle in the shop. Additionally, Audi dealerships have been horrible in dealing with in comparison to the Honda and Toyota dealerships I have dealt with over the same period.

I am an Audi owner. I've liked the car. Some of the quality and electrical issues are inexcusable at any pricepoint/segment.

[mcteague]

I had a 2004 Outback H6. AC went up 3 times, front disks warped very quickly and were ground down, needed full replacement not long after. Belt broke and damaged a number of engine parts in the process. And all this to a car that was serviced, at the dealer, on the regular schedule. So, not abused. Sold it after 8 years. I'm sure there were a few other things along the way lost in the fog or memory. Never had anywhere near this much trouble with Honda and Toyota. Driving an Acura TSX wagon and love it.

Tim

[oldpotatoe]

Yes.

You, (and I), are old if we know what 20/50W means.. :beer:

First car was a '61 VW..how do you know a aircooled VW has oil in it? Puddle under the car..20-50 Castrol GTX, changed the oil every 2500 miles..car lasted forever. I learned a lot from that car, valve adjust, etc. Used this.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Keep-Your-Volkswagen-Alive/dp/0945465122

Loved that car, my first of 7 VWs..

[rockdoc]

My favorite, out of all the cars I've owned, driven, maintained in 40 years of driving, was my 57 bug. And no, no puddles of oil.

Close runner up 140 series Volvos

Currently in a 4Runner, and I am now a big Toyota fan.

Had 2 Outbacks; 1999 and 2008. Great cars but a bit shoddy in some ways.

Test drove an A4 wagon in 98. Fun to drive! Then read all about Audi reliability online and ran far away.... all the way to the Subaru dealer down the street. Saved $10,000 too...

Steve

[buddybikes]

Boring but moves your a** and bikes from one spot to another, Prius V, full size version. Once you get used to 45-50 mpg, hard to give up. We have had prius's for over 10 years, only 1 non scheduled maintenance.

[echelon_john]

Thought I'd chip in. I've owned an Outback, my wife drives an Audi A4, and I currently drive a Saab 9-3 wagon. Previously owned a Mercedes E320 wagon.

I bought the Saab because it was a crazy deal with low miles from a friend who moved out of the country for work. But since we live in VT, on a VERY steep hill, the 2WD vs AWD has become more of an issue than I thought it would.

Her Audi is terrific in the snow, but expensive to fix (even with our good/reasonable local mechanic, the parts are just brutal) and maintain. I've driven recent A4 wagons, and they're a really nice car. But...

If you want to throw a 3rd option into the mix that really deserves a look, it's the Mercedes C-class wagon with 4matic. Brilliant in the snow, (IMO, my E320 4matic was as good or better than the Outback OR the Audi...almost impossible to shake it loose on anything other than pond ice) great motor/transmission, way better trim/interior quality than the Outback (and probably the Audi).

You can get a really nice, recent C wagon for high teens to low $20s with ~30k on the clock. It's absolutely at the top of my list for a next ride. Or go bigger and get the E350, bigger, not as good mileage, but equally great in the snow.

Good luck with your search!
JC

[oldpotatoe]

Thought I'd chip in. I've owned an Outback, my wife drives an Audi A4, and I currently drive a Saab 9-3 wagon. Previously owned a Mercedes E320 wagon.

I bought the Saab because it was a crazy deal with low miles from a friend who moved out of the country for work. But since we live in VT, on a VERY steep hill, the 2WD vs AWD has become more of an issue than I thought it would.

Her Audi is terrific in the snow, but expensive to fix (even with our good/reasonable local mechanic, the parts are just brutal) and maintain. I've driven recent A4 wagons, and they're a really nice car. But...

If you want to throw a 3rd option into the mix that really deserves a look, it's the Mercedes C-class wagon with 4matic. Brilliant in the snow, (IMO, my E320 4matic was as good or better than the Outback OR the Audi...almost impossible to shake it loose on anything other than pond ice) great motor/transmission, way better trim/interior quality than the Outback (and probably the Audi).

You can get a really nice, recent C wagon for high teens to low $20s with ~30k on the clock. It's absolutely at the top of my list for a next ride. Or go bigger and get the E350, bigger, not as good mileage, but equally great in the snow.

Good luck with your search!
JC

Aren't M-B in this same boat? Expensive parts?

Looked up a few, like a window motor-M-B, $375..Audi about $140..about same for Subaru.

[Ken Robb]

Long ago my cousin owned an auto repair shop. The same set of Bosch points were $1.95 when installed in a VW, $2.95 in a Volvo, and $5.95 for the high roller with the Porsche.

It might save some $$ even today to cross-check part interchangeability/similarity especially for do-it-yourselfers.

[Corso]

Another thought: In addition to the mechanical troubles I noted earlier:

After my original Audi dealer changed my perfectly ok disks (said they were out of spec) at 20k, (What’s the problem? it’s under warrantee?), yes i was to believe my brakes (all 4) were shot at 20k… car was simply there for servicing under my lease, not for a problem.

I went to 4 other Audi dealers over the years. Overall, I found them ALL to be condescending, and had the attitude that “if they he can afford this car, he can afford to be taken advantage of for servicing”.

I used to work on cars. And I know when a dealer is blowing smoke. Unfortunately, they ALL did, and all lied about one thing or another.

One great moment, was when I was to be picked up at my home by a dealers “courtesy car”. Much to my surprise, a young kid shows up to pick me up in MY CAR. He didn’t know it.

As soon as I got to the dealer, i demanded to see the manager, who said there is "no way that happened."

They hid the kid, said my car was still in the shop, and I “must be mistaken”…

They pulled out a red A4, said that was the car that picked me up. I said “Nice fkn try, my car is maroon, and I know when I’m in my own car.

This was a well respected Audi-Porshe dealer.

The next day they called and apologized and said they would give me a $50 credit on service the next time I was back.

Naturally, I never went back.

Reported the incident to the owner of the dealership, the NE Audi office, the main US Audi office and never heard back from anyone.

Just thought I’d share.

[weisan]

I am sorry, are we talkin' 'bout that thing that sits on four wheels and brings you from point A to point B?
:D

[jh_on_the_cape]

Do you go to Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts?

There is your answer.

That is worth repeating!

[jh_on_the_cape]

The only vehicle it makes sense to me to buy used is a high mileage vehicle you can buy for a couple thousand dollars, immediately spend a couple thousand fixing it up, then drive it about 100,000 miles, until it has maybe 200,000 on it, then sell it for $1000 for some kid to drive to school. That's cheap driving. Most folks won't do that. The usedcar market for fairly new cars in fairly efficient, they know you'll over pay. The used market for hi mileage is not so strong and efficient, so there are bargains there.

This is what I do. People freak out when I say I spent 1000 at the mechanic. But that's 2 months of payments for their new car. Many people are afraid of a car over 100k miles. If you are not afraid of spending money carefully at the mechanic, a quality car will drive very well 100k - 200k miles.

[Waldo]

I have a '14 Outback. So far, so good. If I were to redesign this car, I'd ask for a manlier horn and a louder turn signal ticker (after I change lanes I drive around with the signal on like a senior citizen, unable to hear that the signal is still on). There's one other thing that I can't remember now.... (Must be early Alzheimer's. Maybe I am a senior citizen, so no wonder I can't hear the turn signal....)

[Waldo]

Snip...
Another thought:
One great moment, was when I was to be picked up at my home by a dealers “courtesy car”. Much to my surprise, a young kid shows up to pick me up in MY CAR. He didn’t know it.

As soon as I got to the dealer, i demanded to see the manager, who said there is "no way that happened."

They hid the kid, said my car was still in the shop, and I “must be mistaken”…

They pulled out a red A4, said that was the car that picked me up. I said “Nice fkn try, my car is maroon, and I know when I’m in my own car.

This was a well respected Audi-Porshe dealer.


Nice of you to give the kid a ride back to the dealership...

[Waldo]

Aren't M-B in this same boat? Expensive parts?

Looked up a few, like a window motor-M-B, $375..Audi about $140..about same for Subaru.

I owned an MB wagon for a while. Every time I brought the car in for anything other than an oil change the bill was at least $500.

[jh_on_the_cape]

I wish there were wagon options from Honda and Toyota. Even subaru doesnt do the legacy wagon anymore, and the outback has morphed into an SUV.

[Ken Robb]

I wish there were wagon options from Honda and Toyota. Even subaru doesnt do the legacy wagon anymore, and the outback has morphed into an SUV.

Forester, maybe? Some 4 door hatchbacks can be a bit like a station wagon too.

[Hank Scorpio]

I wish there were wagon options from Honda and Toyota. Even subaru doesnt do the legacy wagon anymore, and the outback has morphed into an SUV.

I know! Remember the Accord wagon and the Camry wagon? Boring as wallpaper but would go forever.

I found plenty of 2014 Subs in my $ range. Most are certified which gives an extended warranty 5years or 100k. The local dealer has three identical ones but he doesn't want to deal. They have all been on his lot for 24 days already. What a prick!

[zap]

I owned an MB wagon for a while. Every time I brought the car in for anything other than an oil change the bill was at least $500.

I got fed up with our Mercedes dealer so I started looking for an independent Mercedes mechanic. Found one 4 years ago-wonderful fellow. Right away he solved an issue I had with one of our Mercedes in 5 minutes,,,gratis. What I really appreciate is that I get to see the work done, condition of parts, willingness to order better aftermarket parts either here in the USA or Germany, etc.

[EDS]

The problem with the new Outback is that it is so sinfully ugly, it almost doesn't compensate for it's strong points. Btw- it's so tall it's closer to a SUV rather than a wagon.

Could not agree more. Plus, the acceleration with the 4cyl engine is pretty awful. Otherwise, it is a very practical and, in comparison to the A4, has much more cargo volume.

[sevencyclist]

VW Diesel Jetta Wagon with manual transmisson. Looks boring, but the engine, the mileage and the functionality will excite you on your way to bike rides.

[ckamp]

2014 Nissan Pathfinder. 7 seats. Can Tow. Excellent MPG. Very Practical.


Also, I have a 13' Forester Touring. Love it.

[Beldar77]

My wife and I have owned two Outbacks and two A4's. One A4 was a sedan, also known as the time before kids. Now we own a wagon.

I bought this one used and have 37K miles on it 30 of which I put on over the last 5 years. So far no issues but I have heard all the stories. Perhaps the low annual mileage is the answer.

When we owned the Subarus we used to go from the Bay area to Tahoe for skiing almost weekly. Here is what I hated about the Outbacks A) the automatic transmission could never a consistent gear on any hill it would relentlessly switch back and forth B) Not as good as the A4 sedan in the snow, both were AWD equipped.

of course in this thread YMMV

[Louis]

Re: Subie excessive oil use.

If you look around on the web you will find some stuff about Subarus and "too much" oil consumption.

In my case: Car = 2014 Impreza hatch (plain version, not WRX) 17,000 miles on the clock.

How much is "excessive" oil consumption? This is my first car with synthetic oil and they spec 0w-20. This results in two changes from what I'm used to: 7500 miles between changes (so more time for the level to go down) and super-low viscosity. (at room temp 0W-20 is only a bit thicker than water).

A while back my "low oil level" light came on (not low pressure). Turned out I was at 25% above the "low" mark on the dipstick. That was about 2.5k miles before my next scheduled change. Mark to mark on the dipstick is about 1 qt, so I added 1/2 a quart, which brought me to 75% on the stick.

Given the longer time between changes and the lower viscosity would it be normal to add oil between changes?

[ckamp]

Here is what I hated about the Outbacks A) the automatic transmission could never a consistent gear on any hill it would relentlessly switch back and forth

I don't like that they used a 4 speed auto transmission. I feel the same way.

[rounder]

Re: Subie excessive oil use.

If you look around on the web you will find some stuff about Subarus and "too much" oil consumption.

In my case: Car = 2014 Impreza hatch (plain version, not WRX) 17,000 miles on the clock.

How much is "excessive" oil consumption? This is my first car with synthetic oil and they spec 0w-20. This results in two changes from what I'm used to: 7500 miles between changes (so more time for the level to go down) and super-low viscosity. (at room temp 0W-20 is only a bit thicker than water).

A while back my "low oil level" light came on (not low pressure). Turned out I was at 25% above the "low" mark on the dipstick. That was about 2.5k miles before my next scheduled change. Mark to mark on the dipstick is about 1 qt, so I added 1/2 a quart, which brought me to 75% on the stick.

Given the longer time between changes and the lower viscosity would it be normal to add oil between changes?

Our 2001 and 2011 A4s both use synthetic oil. The 2011 recommends oil changes at 10,000 miles. I think it is because the engines today are built with much tighter tolerances than before (no more 20/50 oil). For me, that is about 4 months. The local German shop (Autowerkes) recommends that the oil be changed at 5,000 mile intervals For as much as I drive, I was sticking to the recommended interval of 10,000.

For the first several intervals, I replaced no oil. But then, it was adding a quart after 8,000, another quart after 6,000, etc. until I was adding oil at 2,000 miles. The pistons and rings were replaced by the dealer (along with whatever else they did). Now, no extra oil used in the last 40,000 miles. My guess is that they knew what the problem was and fixed it. Ok by me.

The 2001 run likes a champ and does not use any oil at 138,000.

[dnades]

Saab 9-5 wagons here. Had a 04 arc model to about 105K before it got totaled by a speeding kid outside of boston on 93. Three car pile up. No airbags went off and from inside the car you couldn't tell anything was wrong (other than the 720 degree slow motion spin we did right before). All the doors opened and closed (all the gaps were still even)- anyway no injuries to us so I went out and hunted down another one (an 09). This one is an aero model and much more powerful than my previous one (260hp vs 220). Car has some serious scoot, especially from 40 to about 90 if you need it. Tons of room (which we need like two times a year) and super comfortable seats. Parts are available and I am pretty sure the 9-3s are back in production so there should still be some type of dealer service available. No all wheel drive but you get around 30/32mpg hwy and 25 around town. I did drive the 9-3 wagon and did not like it. Much less smooth and quite a bit smaller feeling on the inside. Would most likely out corner the 9-5 but trade offs abound when you go down that road. Currently the 9-5 wagons were last produced in 09 and are more expensive than the sedans. But both are extremely reasonable secondhand as the future of the company has been in question for quite some time. Good luck with your choice and have no regrets whichever ride you choose.

[HenryA]

I don't like that they used a 4 speed auto transmission. I feel the same way.

New ones have a CVT so none of this stuff anymore. The sensation of the transmission feeling like its slipping took a bit of time to get used to. Now I don't notice it. Its a little like a go-cart with a centrifugal clutch. Revs a bit before taking off. Then it just goes.

Also the latest style Outbacks are much quieter at speed than the previous models. Its no problem to run 70-80 mph in ours and there's no hunting for gears, it just goes. And @29 mpg. No oil consumption here at over 50,000 miles.

Almost the best part is the car fits a very wide range of driver sizes. I'm almost a foot taller than SWMBO and we can each adjust the driver's seat to fit wonderfully. And its got a big back seat and plenty of room behind. Very practical and better in every way than the older versions.

Best thing to do is to go drive one for an hour or two and see if you like it.

[ctbiker]

I owned a Subaru in the 80's; boring, lousy gas mileage, rusted quickly. Swore I'd never buy another. I now own an '04 S4 Avant that I've had since '07. Gobs of power, exciting once every couple months that I get on it, 20-22 mpg, AWD that does its thing well, 137k miles.

I now would consider a Subaru and, if I'm not thinking straight, I'd consider a new A4. Service is expensive at Audi but I usually only have the oil changed there. If it goes in for anything else, it's usually (easily) $1000+

I hold on to my cars for quite awhile. Every time I consider buying again, sticker shock floors me until I'm numb. Then I do it all over again.

[mhespenheide]

The only vehicle it makes sense to me to buy used is a high mileage vehicle you can buy for a couple thousand dollars, immediately spend a couple thousand fixing it up, then drive it about 100,000 miles, until it has maybe 200,000 on it, then sell it for $1000 for some kid to drive to school. That's cheap driving. Most folks won't do that. The used-car market for fairly new cars in fairly efficient, they know you'll over pay. The used market for hi mileage is not so strong and efficient, so there are bargains there.

Heh. I haven't finished reading through the thread, but this is me.

I sold my second Subaru ['96 Outback] to a co-worker who wanted it for her teenaged son. Sold it for $2000 with 208k miles on it. Bought basically an identical car (same model, one model year later) for $2500 with 158k miles on it. I've had to put about $600 into it in the two years I've now owned it, but I figure I'll be able to get it up to the low 200,000-ish range without too much trouble. Hopefully I'll be able to sell it for $1500 to $2000; even with repair costs, I should be under $1000 per year of ownership cost.

Of course, I'm also a high school teacher and care more about functionality of cars than what they look like. If I had more discretionary income, I might think differently than I do now...

[holliscx]

If you are a lesbian, I would steer you towards the Subaru.

[GeorgeTSquirrel]

I will never buy an Audi or a Volkswagen... my mom has an A4, the engine blew up once already due to a timing belt failure on a turbocharged engine (after some legal fighting, she got reimbursed by Audi for it). The car has multiple electronic problems, the first was a circuit board that is exposed to the elements under the drivers seat (the funny part was that my uncle who used to own a VW, told us exactly what the problem was because the same exact thing happened to his VW). On top of that, there is a check engine light that we've been unable to clear and the window-integrated antenna stopped working years ago and would cost like $200 to replace a faulty module that will just fail again in a few years.

In addition to my mom's Audi and my uncle's VW having problems, my sister owned a VW for a while that was constantly having electrical issues. They eventually got rid of it due to an engine failure at just a little over 100k.

Audi/VW are only good cars for about 60k. Then they start falling apart. For comparison, I have over 200k on my Nissan.

My mom also had a Subaru. Nothing ever failed on it, she only got rid of it when the family dog took it for a drive. Seriously. The dog likes to ride along. My mom had the car parked on a hill but left the shifter in the Drive position instead of Park. My mom was outside of the car loading it up with some yard waste when the dog bumped into the shifter/lever and put the car in neutral. The dog then took the ride of her life. Fortunately, the dog was OK as were the neighbors. The car was totaled... done in by a canine driver.

Subaru > Audi/VW any day of the week.

[4Rings6Stars]

I will never buy an Audi or a Volkswagen... my mom has an A4, the engine blew up once already due to a timing belt failure on a turbocharged engine (after some legal fighting, she got reimbursed by Audi for it). The car has multiple electronic problems, the first was a circuit board that is exposed to the elements under the drivers seat (the funny part was that my uncle who used to own a VW, told us exactly what the problem was because the same exact thing happened to his VW). On top of that, there is a check engine light that we've been unable to clear and the window-integrated antenna stopped working years ago and would cost like $200 to replace a faulty module that will just fail again in a few years.

In addition to my mom's Audi and my uncle's VW having problems, my sister owned a VW for a while that was constantly having electrical issues. They eventually got rid of it due to an engine failure at just a little over 100k.

Audi/VW are only good cars for about 60k. Then they start falling apart. For comparison, I have over 200k on my Nissan.

My mom also had a Subaru. Nothing ever failed on it, she only got rid of it when the family dog took it for a drive. Seriously. The dog likes to ride along. My mom had the car parked on a hill but left the shifter in the Drive position instead of Park. My mom was outside of the car loading it up with some yard waste when the dog bumped into the shifter/lever and put the car in neutral. The dog then took the ride of her life. Fortunately, the dog was OK as were the neighbors. The car was totaled... done in by a canine driver.

Subaru > Audi/VW any day of the week.

I have had 2 Audis go past 200k on original motor and transmission. Currently at 153k on another and its running like a top. Has some niggling electric issues, but nothing more than a sticky window switch ($30 part, easy DIY). Water in the ecu is a known weak spot...but don't allow a significant amount of water to soak through the carpet (not talking snowy ski boots) and you will be fine.

Compare that to my wife's legacy: blown turbo at 88k miles. Transmission imploded at 102k. Now at 137k it is parked until I can get an appointment at a Subaru specialty shop to have them replace the center diff ($1k job), potentially the steering rack or ps pump ($$$), and try to diagnose a check engine light that two trips two the dealer and another $1k haven't figured out.

Also... My brother had the head gasket go on his forester at ~130k miles and my other brother dealt with a seeping head and the smell of burning coolant for 75k miles and that's considered normal for that generation. Only thing that saved that car was a tree falling across the roof during an ice storm we had a few years back. He replaced it with a new 05 Saab 9-2 (really an 04 impreza) and it's been perfect to 180k miles.

It's all a crap shoot. Subarus historically are cheaper to maintain and to repair. But they have not been a picture of reliability in my experience and my wife's car has cost us about $7k in repairs in 3 years.

[oldpotatoe]

These, "I had a friend with a such and such a car and it blew up, I'll never buy one", stories are always interesting..cuz they are always followed by a " I've had that car for a bazzilion miles with no issue".

All cars have "ownership tax", all, in the grand scheme, are pretty reliable. Some are better than others. Of the ones I have had since my first '61 VW in 1969, all have worked well(altho I blew the engine on the '61, but I bought 6 others).

I choose to not buy a Japanese designed car, for my price point, they are just so boring. I suppose I could have gotten a Toyota small wagon, it would have been cheaper but yikes, takes all the moisture outta yer mouth to drive it.

Subarus included. You can't throw a hat around here w/o hitting some 'Subie' or another..no thanks.

BUT YMMV..I love my 2000 Beetle and 2013 VW Jetta SW TDI..

[Likes2ridefar]

These, "I had a friend with a such and such a car and it blew up, I'll never buy one", stories are always interesting..cuz they are always followed by a " I've had that car for a bazzilion miles with no issue".

All cars have "ownership tax", all, in the grand scheme, are pretty reliable. Some are better than others. Of the ones I have had since my first '61 VW in 1969, all have worked well(altho I blew the engine on the '61, but I bought 6 others).

I choose to not buy a Japanese designed car, for my price point, they are just so boring. I suppose I could have gotten a Toyota small wagon, it would have been cheaper but yikes, takes all the moisture outta yer mouth to drive it.

Subarus included. You can't throw a hat around here w/o hitting some 'Subie' or another..no thanks.

BUT YMMV..I love my 2000 Beetle and 2013 VW Jetta SW TDI..

agree about the anecdotes. My father is the same way with VW. One visor with electronics that went kaput, was pretty pricey to replace, and the entire company is his enemy.

Surprised this thread has made it this long. Seems pretty simple to me if buying new.

do you want 1) a fancy AWD car or 2) a not so fancy AWD car? if 1, get audi. if 2, get subaru.

[witcombusa]

These, "I had a friend with a such and such a car and it blew up, I'll never buy one", stories are always interesting..cuz they are always followed by a " I've had that car for a bazzilion miles with no issue".

All cars have "ownership tax", all, in the grand scheme, are pretty reliable. Some are better than others. Of the ones I have had since my first '61 VW in 1969, all have worked well(altho I blew the engine on the '61, but I bought 6 others).

I choose to not buy a Japanese designed car, for my price point, they are just so boring. I suppose I could have gotten a Toyota small wagon, it would have been cheaper but yikes, takes all the moisture outta yer mouth to drive it.

Subarus included. You can't throw a hat around here w/o hitting some 'Subie' or another..no thanks.

BUT YMMV..I love my 2000 Beetle and 2013 VW Jetta SW TDI..


There are non "boring" Japanese cars, including Subie. Go take a 2015 WRX for a blast up one of the Canyons and get back to me (yes, under 30k)

I've had two GTI's, both for over 10 years. Will not EVER have another VW.
So my milage does vary...

[Likes2ridefar]

There are non "boring" Japanese cars, including Subie. Go take a 2015 WRX for a blast up one of the Canyons and get back to me (yes, under 30k)

I've had two GTI's, both for over 10 years. Will not EVER have another VW.
So my milage does vary...

engine/driving isn't boring but everything else is still. noisy inside too compared to something like an audi.

[oldpotatoe]

There are non "boring" Japanese cars, including Subie. Go take a 2015 WRX for a blast up one of the Canyons and get back to me (yes, under 30k)

I've had two GTI's, both for over 10 years. Will not EVER have another VW.
So my milage does vary...

No doubt but at 'my price point' and suits my needs. WRX doesn't.

Owned 7 VWs, probably won't need any car again but I'd get a Beetle or Golf TDI in an instant. Anecdotal, means little.

[bcroslin]

Subaru > Audi/VW any day of the week.

A good friend is a VW mechanic and the advice he gives everyone is to not buy a VW older than a 2008. Anything prior to '08 is a crapshoot and a lemon waiting to happen.

We've had no issues with our 2010 TDI Sportwagen. It's my wife's daily driver and a fantastic car. Only issue is the damn tax on diesel which makes it .50 more than regular unleaded.

[Likes2ridefar]

No doubt but at 'my price point' and suits my needs. WRX doesn't.

Owned 7 VWs, probably won't need any car again but I'd get a Beetle or Golf TDI in an instant. Anecdotal, means little.

my uncle who is a truck and john deere kinda guy showed up for a visit this summer in a beetle convertible. i was stunned and he immediately went on the defensive stating i know i know, it's my wifes, she really wanted it and i said that mini was a hunk of junk, etc etc so this was the compromise.

i was really impressed with it. it was the top end sporty edition and had a nice interior with high end details. surprisingly roomy up front, too.

he made sure to spin the tires the first time out to prove it was manly enough for him, and he did finally admit he thought it was a great car that got high MPG when not spinning rubber.

[oldpotatoe]

A good friend is a VW mechanic and the advice he gives everyone is to not buy a VW older than a 2008. Anything prior to '08 is a crapshoot and a lemon waiting to happen.

We've had no issues with our 2010 TDI Sportwagen. It's my wife's daily driver and a fantastic car. Only issue is the damn tax on diesel which makes it .50 more than regular unleaded.

Strange that few refinerys but many different fuel prices. Some because of tax but sometimes different prices for 2 Shell stations across the street from each other, like right by the 287 exit in Broomfield. But diesel is now $3.44, gas was about $3.29. Now $3.18...but once diesel was less than gas.

But consistentry get 38-42 mpg....

Big glut of oil right now, prices may go below $80 a barrel...short term good.

[saab2000]

Strange that few refinerys but many different fuel prices. Some because of tax but sometimes different prices for 2 Shell stations across the street from each other, like right by the 287 exit in Broomfield. But diesel is now $3.44, gas was about $3.29. Now $3.18...but once diesel was less than gas.

But consistentry get 38-42 mpg....

Big glut of oil right now, prices may go below $80 a barrel...short term good.

My observation is that the price of diesel fluctuates less than the price of gasoline. There are undoubtedly reasons for this that I don't understand but in times of low gas prices diesel remains the same and same with higher gas prices.

Diesel customers should purchase diesel based on personal preference and fuel economy, not on the price of fuel at the moment of purchase. That will lead to a very dissatisfied customer.

[Ken Robb]

My observation is that the price of diesel fluctuates less than the price of gasoline. There are undoubtedly reasons for this that I don't understand but in times of low gas prices diesel remains the same and same with higher gas prices.

Diesel customers should purchase diesel based on personal preference and fuel economy, not on the price of fuel at the moment of purchase. That will lead to a very dissatisfied customer.

Just a guess about the relative volatility of gasoline prices vs. diesel in the USA: Most diesel is consumed by commercial vehicles that have to travel regardless of the price of fuel. Most gasoline is consumed by privately owned automobiles where higher fuel prices can lead to less pleasure driving and/or using alternate transportation. This may be why diesel prices stay high but oil companies can reduce prices to increase demand for gasoline when the supply is plentiful.

[Hank Scorpio]

Well I settled on a 2014 Outback and I might be the most boring car ever to drive, my 88 Rx-7 turbo being the most fun.

[oldpotatoe]

Well I settled on a 2014 Outback and I might be the most boring car ever to drive, my 88 Rx-7 turbo being the most fun.

I did have a first gen 1973 RX-2. Wankel and that thing was fast, and fell apart and overheated almost from day one.

[ceolwulf]

I did have a first gen 1973 RX-2. Wankel and that thing was fast, and fell apart and overheated almost from day one.


Rotaries are fantastic, utterly brilliant engines. Not so great if you're depending on them to actually get you somewhere though.

Loved my RX-7, didn't enjoy rebuilding it, even less the second time ...

[bcroslin]

Just a guess about the relative volatility of gasoline prices vs. diesel in the USA: Most diesel is consumed by commercial vehicles that have to travel regardless of the price of fuel. Most gasoline is consumed by privately owned automobiles where higher fuel prices can lead to less pleasure driving and/or using alternate transportation. This may be why diesel prices stay high but oil companies can reduce prices to increase demand for gasoline when the supply is plentiful.

Diesel costs more because there's extra taxes on it:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-diesel-costs-more-than-gasoline-2013-10

[tiretrax]

Really? Audi sold about 85k cars in the US in the the first 6 months of 2014, and you can lump all of the various owners together?

Jeff

Look at the nameplats of the most aggressive drivers on the N TX Toll Road. More than half are driving an Audi. I test drove some yesterday - mentioned that to the salesman. He had a huge smile and said "it is a sports car."

Going through this conundrum, too. The hood broke on my 94 Lexus (lady in front of me in line at a stop light started, then stopped suddenly. I only started and kinda stopped), which I planned to drive for another 10 years. Buying a car is a PITA.

Agree with Ralph's assessment of new vs. used value/cost. I've never owned a car less than 10 years, but the prices of used cars is ridiculous. I may lease something for 2 years, then another car.

[tiretrax]

Just a guess about the relative volatility of gasoline prices vs. diesel in the USA: Most diesel is consumed by commercial vehicles that have to travel regardless of the price of fuel. Most gasoline is consumed by privately owned automobiles where higher fuel prices can lead to less pleasure driving and/or using alternate transportation. This may be why diesel prices stay high but oil companies can reduce prices to increase demand for gasoline when the supply is plentiful.

Low sulphur diesel now produced by US refineries for US market can also sell to world market now. So, diesel users now compete in world market.

[Ken Robb]

I don't know what the taxes are on diesel vs. gasoline in all states. My comments addressed what some folks perceive as less volatility in diesel prices vs. gasoline prices.

[1centaur]

I figured out a few years ago that the difference in problem incidence between the black dots (bad) and the red dots (good) in Consumer Reports reliability charts maxed out at under 15%, so even the absolute worst cars were highly likely to be reliable.

That does not mean that those of us who really like a hassle free life should not prefer the red dots, but it also does not mean that a brand consigns a buyer to a miserable 7 years at the auto shop. A few of the best brands are lemons and most of the terrible ones are not.

The price of the good ones can include boredom. Choose the life you lead.

[Hank Scorpio]

I did have a first gen 1973 RX-2. Wankel and that thing was fast, and fell apart and overheated almost from day one.

Mine was great until I drove it out to CO. Fun as all get out to tear up Loveland Pass in the summer and in the winter it was a donut machine behind the silverthorne outlets. Only problem was if it didn't start first try we would have to push start it. One time it flooded at my friends condo on peak 8 at breck. I pushed it out of the lot while he was steering but for some reason he didn't close the door all the way. It caught on a fence post and bent back about 45 degrees the wrong way with a loud metallic groan.

[r_mutt]

Look at the nameplats of the most aggressive drivers on the N TX Toll Road. More than half are driving an Audi. I test drove some yesterday - mentioned that to the salesman. He had a huge smile and said "it is a sports car."



Audi makes 1 sports car - that's an R8. the rest of the models are sporting sedans. 4 doors do not a sports car make.

[rustychisel]

Audi makes 1 sports car - that's an R8. the rest of the models are sporting sedans. 4 doors do not a sports car make.


Yes, but in the mind of the driver...

how did this go, by the way? I jumped to page 9.

Around here Audi's are for wankers who used to drive BMWs, Subaru are for slightly earnest people who don't want the imposition of a 4WD and care about the environment but not so much that they care about still driving everywhere.

[Louis]

Subaru are for slightly earnest people who don't want the imposition of a 4WD and care about the environment but not so much that they care about still driving everywhere.

Hmmmmm. I guess that makes me slightly earnest. :)

What to very earnest people drive? Mercedes?

[oldpotatoe]

Mine was great until I drove it out to CO. Fun as all get out to tear up Loveland Pass in the summer and in the winter it was a donut machine behind the silverthorne outlets. Only problem was if it didn't start first try we would have to push start it. One time it flooded at my friends condo on peak 8 at breck. I pushed it out of the lot while he was steering but for some reason he didn't close the door all the way. It caught on a fence post and bent back about 45 degrees the wrong way with a loud metallic groan.

Yep, apex seals and cold weather=no compression..

[jamesau]

The price of the good ones can include boredom. Choose the life you lead.

Agreed. Below is a great quote from Peter Egan.

[Hank Scorpio]

how did this go, by the way? I jumped to page 9

I bought the outback and according to this thread I am a lesbian who likes boring cars and only has a passing thought for the environment.

Which I feel is pretty accurate.

I also have not unbookmarked the Audi

[oldpotatoe]

I bought the outback and according to this thread I am a lesbian who likes boring cars and only has a passing thought for the environment.

Which I feel is pretty accurate.

I also have not unbookmarked the Audi

Named Hank!!

[bcroslin]

Audi makes 1 sports car - that's an R8. the rest of the models are sporting sedans. 4 doors do not a sports car make.

What about 5?

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201302/audi-s6-avant-by-abt_600x0w.jpg

[rustychisel]

I bought the outback and according to this thread I am a lesbian who likes boring cars and only has a passing thought for the environment.

Which I feel is pretty accurate.

I also have not unbookmarked the Audi


I feel that's a pretty good outcome then, all things considered.:hello:

[dogdriver]

I bought the outback and according to this thread I am a lesbian who likes boring cars and only has a passing thought for the environment.

Which I feel is pretty accurate.

I also have not unbookmarked the Audi

... Or you have a repressed desire to live in Vermont, turn Vegan, and heat your house with locally sourced wood. Anyhoo, don't sweat it-- the Subby is the state car of most western mountain states. It just makes sense...

[Hank Scorpio]

... Or you have a repressed desire to live in Vermont, turn Vegan, and heat your house with locally sourced wood. Anyhoo, don't sweat it-- the Subby is the state car of most western mountain states. It just makes sense...

If we turn Vermont in Cape Cod and vegan into surf bum we have a deal.

[mcteague]

I did have a first gen 1973 RX-2. Wankel and that thing was fast, and fell apart and overheated almost from day one.

Hmm, does this fall under Anecdotal, means little (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1638885&postcount=112). ?:D

Tim

[jerrym]

I've had great luck with the Golf TDI. Good power, good mileage, fun to drive, practical.

[oldpotatoe]

Hmm, does this fall under Anecdotal, means little (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1638885&postcount=112). ?:D

Tim

sure does but boy, was that sucker quick!!!

[r_mutt]

What about 5?

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201302/audi-s6-avant-by-abt_600x0w.jpg


yes it's fast, and handles well (for a heavy car), but it's not a sports car in the true sense. just because cars are powerful doesn't make them sports cars. a Benley Mulsanne makes 500 HP - is that a sports car?