fsa ceramic nonsens

[ada@prorider.or]

i just have read this what is in my opion nonsens of ceramic balls

fsa says on it web site that ceramic balls saves up to 16 watts at 400 watts input (4%)
i really doubt of any people there ride a bike


they talk all kind of tech numbers thats only related to the ceramic it selve
not to the bearing it selve
and its a steel bearing with ceramic balls of course this reduce resistance but not 4% of 400 watt reduction under load of cycling

and with full ceramic you can pressure wash the bearing
hence the more water the better the full ceramic bearing runs but not a hybrid!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Serotta PETE]

[QUOTE=ada@prorider.or]i just have read the i my opion nonsens of ceramic balls

QUOTE]


:)

[e-RICHIE]

i just have read the i my opion nonsens of ceramic balls


:)


i agree.
how craig's list, eh?!

[93legendti]

i just have read the i my opion nonsens of ceramic balls...

Do you mean: "I like onion in my matzah balls"?
or: "the i in opium makes no sense for those with ceramic walls"?
or: "my reading test shows I am myopic, but I think it is nonsense"?
or" thanks to my sensei, I have ceramic balls"?

I do not like onion in matzah balls or in matzah ball soup. ymmv

[Argos]

Onion in Matzah Balls is like carrots in Calzone.

[93legendti]

Onion in Matzah Balls is like carrots in Calzone.

I think that is what Cees was trying to say. With Purim about to start, he should be worrying about his Ozney Haman, not Matzah Balls.

[lnomalley]

off the record.. i've had a little time playing with the bearings... and i think what's good about them is that they will last a long time. i think serviceability is probably a more real world selling point. as for wattage... with the wheels and the bb and the pedals all kitted out.. i could see maybe a watt.maybe not. real world there no diff in feel... or a very very vague one at best.

it sounds cool though. i mean i'd have them rather than not having them if they were free. i just wouldn't feel any faster on em so much as i'd feel like shaving my pubes saved some climbing weight.
i digress.
ewwwww. figuratively speaking. point made.

as cees might say, i bearing the wattage when measured its so much not.
that being said.. fsa is not some evil conglomerate.... they believe what they are saying.. they are sincere and they want to make the best stuff they can. no bs. some very good people there...

[93legendti]

...as cees might say, i bearing the wattage when measured its so much not...


That's funny! Well, Cees and Zipp are seemingly competitors, so maybe this isn't the best place for Cees to say: "i my opion nonsens of ceramic balls".

[Kahuna]

Or even worse, zuchinni inside chocolate cake. Honest to God I know someone who made their kid a chocolate cake with little zuchinni chunk surprises inside.

Nothing short of child abuse.

Onion in Matzah Balls is like carrots in Calzone.

[93legendti]

Or even worse, zuchinni inside chocolate cake. Honest to God I know someone who made their kid a chocolate cake with little zuchinni chunk surprises inside.

Nothing short of child abuse.

Sounds like a secret ingredient from the Iron Chef challenges...

[ada@prorider.or]

well i made some product and wheels for pro´s with ceramics and have experiment years already with it
you even can see that on a video what we made with a dutch compagny

we did test and measurement since 1990 with ceramics

but that that people saying that save´s more the 50 % of the friction of the wheel bearings and that its 4 % of the wattage of 400 watts thats 16 watts
that means at lest then you need 32 watts just to over come the resistance of bearings is little bit too far for me
just too sell bearings at a high price´s
sorry i cannot stand those kind of statements

i made bb axels out of ceramic bearings and with extemly light running since 1992 but you never hear me say that i save´s so much
what it does helps in the mind of the person who ride´s it
and empty your wallet


sorry guy´s just needed to say this
can not stand it

[Argos]

I guess because they stand behind their product and would provide info if requested, that nay-saying for the sake of "I just can't believe" or "I couldn't do it" is just as valid. Especially when they are not really a competitor.

Oh wait.... :rolleyes:

[stevep]

i have special bearings. they will boost output from 250 watts to 550 watts.
who wants them?..they are made on the moon and cost $2,200 each.
the doof would be lance armstrong in 2 weeks with these bearings.
c'mon doof... go for it.

[CalfeeFly]

Cees,

It is all marketing BS and in turn big profit sales. Ceramic bearings are the new wonderkind bike part that people that my daddy described that have more money than brains will shell out big bucks for. They can make a huge profit and laugh all the way to the bank. Ralph Lauren does it all the time in clothes. He sells a wool coat for $1,000 because his name is in it not because it is that much better than another at much less money.

John Neugent who makes Neuvation Wheels agrees with you. He sells his ceramic upgrade for $100 and this is what he says.

If you want to go nuts, I am offering a Ceramic upgrade kit that will also work with the Neuvaton M 28 Aero wheels. Other wheel companies claim that ceramic bearings will make you go faster and some charge over $300 for them. I am offering the upgrade kit complete with all of the things you will need to do the upgrade for a lot less.

[JohnS]

I have it from a "reliable" source that LA was given a ceramic balls implant to take up his, ahem, extra room. From the way he beat the field in the TdF for the last seven years, they must be good for at least 4 watts! They are also much stronger, as evidenced by the example of when he unclipped and fewll on his top tube! :) :p :D ;)

[e-RICHIE]

I have it from a "reliable" source that LA was given a ceramic balls implant to take up his, ahem, extra room. From the way he beat the field in the TdF for the last seven years, they must be good for at least 4 watts! They are also much stronger, as evidenced by the example of when he unclipped and fewll on his top tube! :) :p :D ;)


they'd be worthless unless they somehow were
designed by eva zeisel. her ceramic work is the
stuff of legend atmo.

[PanTerra]

they'd be worthless unless they somehow were
designed by eva zeisel. her ceramic work is the
stuff of legend atmo.

I am still trying to find out what the Australian Trade Mark Office has to do with any of this.

[JohnS]

I am still trying to find out what the Austrailian Trade Mark Office has to do with any of this.Austrian, not Australian! :p

[PanTerra]

Austrian, not Australian! :p

Austrian?

http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?acronym=ATMO

[lnomalley]

saying cees and zipp are in competition with each other is really sort of misleading. yea they both make wheels.... that's the only meaningful similarity. one is mass produced and the other is not. that is a significant diff.

atmo

[93legendti]

saying cees and zipp are in competition with each other is really sort of misleading. yea they both make wheels.... that's the only meaningful similarity. one is mass produced and the other is not. that is a significant diff.

atmo
iyho. They both make carbon race wheels. Cees seems threatened enough by Zipp, Reynolds, et al, that he often posts his criticism/complaints about carbon wheels (including bearings and dimples) made by people other than Cees.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=15331
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=15437
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=15016
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=14105

[ada@prorider.or]

iyho. They both make carbon race wheels. Cees seems threatened enough by Zipp, Reynolds, et al, that he often posts his criticism/complaints about carbon wheels (including bearings and dimples) made by people other than Cees.


i feel not treathend
i only doubt some stamements thats made that are simply not true

and misleading
again never said some thing about zipp only about dimples
on wheels that suppose to help in wich we have prove is not true also with sciencie to back this up
the same about ceramic bearings also with prove as teste we did our selve and science and formula´s to back things up
and when i talked about reynolds
its just the science formula called reynolds
its a aerodynamic way to indentify its aerodynamics!!!!!!!!!!!!



i am just in for giving information wich is true!
thats´s all

[Argos]

...never said some thing about zipp only about dimples
on wheels that suppose to help in wich we have prove is not true also with sciencie to back this up
the same about ceramic bearings also with prove as teste we did our selve and science and formula´s to back things up
and when i talked about reynolds
its just the science formula called reynolds
its a aerodynamic way to indentify its aerodynamics!!!!!!!!!!!!

i am just in for giving information wich is true!
thats´s all

How is your info and calculations any more valid then there's?

Can you not see that everytime you post stuff like this it is continuously looked upon as nothing more then striking out at companies with larger resources and capabilities?

Your posts on these subjects are as much negative-marketing as you claim their claims are marketing.

It's just so over the top. C'mon already. We value your perspectives on cycling, but you have to stop using the forum as a way to go out of your way to bash these companies you are a competitor of. It's not even like you comment on someone elses post. You start the post (in this case 2 posts about FSA in a matter of hours) yourself.

[ada@prorider.or]

How is your info and calculations any more valid then there's?
.

ok i can see that from your side

i will try to put formula´s then in the post

Als met de (eenvoudiger) grove benadering wordt gewerkt, dan is Mr=f * F * dm/2

Voor de trapas geldt dan:
f=wrijvingscoeff. voor kogellagers =0,002
F=kracht op het lager. Stel deze is 2000N.
dm=gem. diameter=23,5 mm.

Mr=0,002 * 2000 * 23,5/2 = 47 Nmm.

N = M * n / 9550 dus N = 47 * 100 / 9550 = 0,49 W. per lager.

Voor de totale trapas wordt dit dus ca. 1 W.

De nauwkeuriger berekening geeft als uitkomst 0,56 W.



agree?

[Argos]

That does not show yours to be moe accurate or even measuring the same thing as them.

Numbers, in this case, are like statistics. You are going to make them show what you want them to show.

That's not to say that for similar marketing reasons they are not doing the same thing. It is to say that it is inappropriate to attack a competitor here.

Inomalley, no disrespect, but they are totally competitors, like it or not, for high end wheelsets.

[ada@prorider.or]

That does not show yours to be moe accurate or even measuring the same thing as them.

Numbers, in this case, are like statistics. You are going to make them show what you want them to show.

That's not to say that for similar marketing reasons they are not doing the same thing. It is to say that it is inappropriate to attack a competitor here.

Inomalley, no disrespect, but they are totally competitors, like it or not, for high end wheelsets.

pppppfffffffffffffffffffffff

well you meaby beleive more in fairy tails then in real science en testing what we did

i really doubt or you want to beleive or not
or just do not like arguments what based on science

[Argos]

You are my best argument.

You argue numbers, they argue numbers. You claim they are marketing and post ONE sheet of hand scrawled Math. They claim science with an online .pdf and I claim you are negative Marketing.

Suddenly I don't like science because I do not give more weight to what some guy posts angrily on an internet forum against a larger competeing company?

Amazing.

You pegged me so well.

You yourself, on your website talk about not comparing to other companies because of different testing enviroments, yet you can compare and contrast here on a website in the course of an afternoon without their product specs in your hand or the product to test or the testing information.

You want to talk about not likeing science? Look in the mirror.

You are just into Negative marketing.

Oh, you had me at the uploaded handwritten note, Cees.

[e-RICHIE]

atmo

[e-RICHIE]

potm

[Argos]

Can you claim "POTM" on your own thread?

I agree though.

Out.

[93legendti]

potm
inyo

[jerk]

hey,

fsa's claim that ceramic bearing save that much energy is stupid, wrong and obviously false to anyone who has more than a 10th grade education.

cees is not a "competitor" to any of these companies, anymore than richard sachs is a competitor to trek. ada has a long waiting list; makes a product that appeals to very few people, is virtually unavailable and does no sponsoring or marketing of his product.

he is trying to have a frank discussion abou the realities of bicycle components. he is not trying to sell or dissuade anyone from buying anything. the man has forgotton more about bicycle than most of us will ever know and he is coming here to spark an interesting discussion about ceramic bearings.

why don't you talk about the subject of the post and not personally attack a member of this forum in a way that is irrellevent to the post?

cees wants to talk about ceramic bearings and the benefits (real and imagined) they have.

for what its worth; the jerk once saw a bottom bracket in the back of a van on a cold windy rainy night in a certain dutch parking lot that spun almost endlessly with the slightest of provocation.

as you were,

jerk

[Grant McLean]

they'd be worthless unless they somehow were
designed by eva zeisel. her ceramic work is the
stuff of legend atmo.

more zeiselness
:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4510966

-g

[Argos]

I guess it just seems like he does the same thing all the time and it comes off as aggressive, pointed, and insecure...

The point and argument has been made clearly in this thread. He does not discuss. He comes out and calls his competitors liars. He does not discuss bearings, he posts and calls them liars, (Twice in one day!). He starts threads from the position that the science behind dimples cannot be trusted.

It's like his calling card at this point. If the post is from him, you know what to expect.

You do not want to call them competitors, fine. In an industry directory, they are all under wheels. If they are not his competition, then it must not matter to Him that Lance was all Bonty in the last Tour and Jan was on a set of 303 rims.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=15331
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=15437
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=15016
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=14105

He is a smart guy, with lots to share, and I have respect for him and his place in the history of modern cycling advancement, it is a shame he keeps doing this.

as you were,

Jason

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . BUT . . . I don't think we should automatically view anything Cees says through the prism of his professional involvement. I see nothing wrong with him simply stating his opinion--namely, that he disagrees with what the folks at FSA are saying about ceramic bearings. I would disagree with them myself--if I had any earthly idea what the heck they are talking about. About the only opinion I have on this is that when you start getting this esoteric with arguing about 4 watts here or 1/100 of a second there you are getting into "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" territory. It may be important to Jan or Lance, but it don't mean diddly in the environment that 99.999% of the rest of us ride in.

I think Cees has certainly proven his right to have an opinion through his professional activities. I'm betting he has plenty of work to keep him busy and I think his opinions are valid, even if I don't have the foggiest notion of what he is talking about or scribbling and even if they turned out to be totally wrong. He's still entitled to his opinion and we still have the obligation to at least give him a fair hearing.

Of course, in the final analysis, I'm afraid this looks like I'm agreeing with the Jerk again, which I find extremely disturbing . . . ;)

BBD

PS . . . And would somebody please, PLEASE tell me what "atmo" means?

[stevep]

relax. these are only freakin bicycle wheels. not that important.
common sense would say that no bearing would be worth 4 watts.
hes surely right... let it go.

[Grant McLean]

I guess it just seems like he does the same thing all the time and it comes off as aggressive, pointed, and insecure...

The point and argument has been made clearly in this thread. He does not discuss. He comes out and calls his competitors liars. He does not discuss bearings, he posts and calls them liars, (Twice in one day!). He starts threads from the position that the science behind dimples cannot be trusted.

It's like his calling card at this point. If the post is from him, you know what to expect.

You do not want to call them competitors, fine. In an industry directory, they are all under wheels. If they are not his competition, then it must not matter to Him that Lance was all Bonty in the last Tour and Jan was on a set of 303 rims.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=15331
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=15437
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=15016
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=14105

He is a smart guy, with lots to share, and I have respect for him and his place in the history of modern cycling advancement, it is a shame he keeps doing this.

as you were,

Jason

I don't see what the big deal with those posts is.
If I notice that all the weights in the Mavic catalog are "off",
and weigh all the wheels on a scale... calling them "liars" is a bit of
a stretch, it's more likely the manufacturer in question has used some
sort of ideal conditions to get the results they publish as a "best case"
example. It's marketing. I think "calling" them on it is a good thing.

YMMV

-g

[jerk]

potm

steve-
did the jerk ever tell you how handsome you are? in like a manly "we're both at the strip club kind of way"....

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

potm

steve-
did the jerk ever tell you how handsome you are? in like a manly "we're both at the strip club kind of way"....

jerk



have you seen what he does with scarves?

[jerk]

have you seen what he does with scarves?

exactly.

handsome.

jerk

[bshell]

jerk,

Thanks for posting that last one so I didn't have to type so much. Very well put.

In addition, I'd like to know how many of those making fun of ada's posts are involved in forum discussions from other countries? ...That's what I thought.

The rampant misuse and misspelling of words on this forum by alleged English speakers makes my head hurt at times and y'all are picking on Cees and his topics? You should be embarassed.

[Grant McLean]

The rampant misuse and misspelling of words on this forum by alleged English speakers makes my head hurt at times and y'all are picking on Cees and his topics? You should be embarassed.


ya guys! get a copy, OK? :banana:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/

-g

[93legendti]

Since this thread has turned ironical, here's my contribution: I like Ibis mountain bikes with drop bars.

[PanTerra]

The rampant misuse and misspelling of words on this forum by alleged English speakers makes my head hurt at times and y'all are picking on Cees and his topics? You should be embarassed.

I feel your pain. Oh, and it is spelled, "embarrassed." Don't you just hate that? :crap:

See Skitt's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skitt's_law).

[PanTerra]

ya guys! get a copy, OK? :banana:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/

-g

I have never seen a dictionary that had so many misspelled words in it. :rolleyes: http://panterragroup.home.mindspring.com/emoticons/iron-e2.gif

[The Spider]

Jan was on a set of 303 rims.

Argos,

share the love, any pictures of that?

BTW: QOTM - I've been chuckling over that superman line for days!

[ergott]

Jan was on a set of 303 rims.

Argos,

share the love, any pictures of that?

BTW: QOTM - I've been chuckling over that superman line for days!

It was a couple of Tours ago (pre Bianchi Telecom) He was using a set of 303s with Tune hubs.

[bluesea]

pppppfffffffffffffffffffffff




Are you from Belgium?

[The Spider]

It was a couple of Tours ago (pre Bianchi Telecom) He was using a set of 303s with Tune hubs.

Ergott,

I like his style! they didn't come without decals by any chance, supplied by an expert wheel-maker from this forum by any chance?

I'm growing my hair long as I type! Seperated at birth!

[xcandrew]

16 W is probably more than all the mechanical losses combined other than aerodynamic losses and rolling resistance. Yes, the power saved nonsense IS lying. I would have thought that that the claim is such an obvious lie that no one would buy it.

Some back up for Cees:

http://www.insidetri.com/train/bike/articles/1960.1.html