Yet another wheelbuilding question

[Robbos]

I was one of the lucky ones, thanks to a heads up from a fellow forumite, to get a pair of the Kinlin 270 28 hole rims on blowout. I'm going to lace them up to a nice pair of heavy but solid Miche Primato road hubs. I'm 185 pounds, not a mountain of power (yet!), but ride on some crap-tasik roads. I was thinking either DT Revolution or Competition (Sapim or Wheelsmith double butted also a possibility if the price is right) in a three cross front and rear. Should I run a thicker set of spokes on the drive side, like straight gauge, or Revolutions front and rear with Competitions on the drive side? I'm not a weight weenie, so I'm going for solidity. My only concession to pointless style is the temptation to use red aluminum nipples, but I think reason will win out and I'll go with boring brass.
Thoughts?

[ergott]

DT Comps or Sapim Race (forgot the WS version) are fine all around. Nothing wrong with alloy if you prep them carefully. Use grease between the nipple and rim. Use anti sieze compound on the threads.

I'd skip the straight gauge spokes.

[Vinci]

I can't offer advice about spoke type, but I am building some Kinlins from that sale myself and have been shopping for spokes.

Check out Cambria for spokes. They have some nice spokes on mega discount in limited sizes.

I got a batch of DT Comp (1.8/1.5) black spokes for $.49 each, which is half or less the price anywhere else I looked.

I gambled on the lengths, though, since they didn't have exactly the sizes I was looking for, but they seem to be okay so far into the build.

[oldpotatoe]

I was one of the lucky ones, thanks to a heads up from a fellow forumite, to get a pair of the Kinlin 270 28 hole rims on blowout. I'm going to lace them up to a nice pair of heavy but solid Miche Primato road hubs. I'm 185 pounds, not a mountain of power (yet!), but ride on some crap-tasik roads. I was thinking either DT Revolution or Competition (Sapim or Wheelsmith double butted also a possibility if the price is right) in a three cross front and rear. Should I run a thicker set of spokes on the drive side, like straight gauge, or Revolutions front and rear with Competitions on the drive side? I'm not a weight weenie, so I'm going for solidity. My only concession to pointless style is the temptation to use red aluminum nipples, but I think reason will win out and I'll go with boring brass.
Thoughts?

W/O mentioning that for these rims, I would rec. a 32 rear BUT. Do Revs or Lasers on the front, 2 cross but at least Comps or Race right side rear. Comp or Race both sides is not a bad idea, considering the rim, 28h and 185 pounds. Lace 3 cross,rear, inside pulling to minimize spoke overlap on the flange for the pulling spokes. Brass nipps for any non eyeleted rim....in fact no aluminum for ANY rim, IMHO. They do nuthin except reduce reliability of any wheel.

[phcollard]

I got those rims on sale too - same hole count.

I'm gonna build them Sapim Laser 2x front / Sapim Laser 2x rear NDS / Sapim Race 2x DS. Alloy nipples, why not?

But I'm no expert. And I weight 170 lbs :)

[ultraman6970]

I think the OP will be ok building them as he wants. 3x and with whatever spokes he wants. The 1st ride you will notice if you need something special and get that modified. But 3x is just like the right way to go all the time, firm and smooth enough. The other thing is that kinlin rims are really good, probably better than mavic in the same range. 3x is simple and works all the time.

IMO 2x won't be strong enough, softer ride tho.

[Mark McM]

Aluminum nipples can work - for a while. However, they are neither as fatigue resistant, nor as corrosion resistant as brass nipples. If used on poor weather wheels.

Spoke lacing pattern (i.e. number of crossings) has virtually no influence on overall wheel strength, stiffness, or durability, with a few exceptions: Some hubs are not intended for radial lacing, so some hubs may be more prone to flange breakage if the spokes are laced radially; Wheels that transmit torque (rear drive wheels, or wheels with hub brakes, i.e. drum or disc brakes) should have crossed spokes, but the number of spoke crossings often makes little difference; hubs with large flanges often shouldn't be laced tangentially, as this increase the angle of the spoke where it joins the rim, and increases stress concentrations at one of the weakest portions of the spoke (the threads).

Academically, radially laced wheels can have about 5% less compliance than wheels with radial spokes - but since the wheels only provide less than 10% of total compliance, the difference in total compliance with radial lacing is only about 0.5%.

For 28 spoke wheels, small flange hubs can be laced with up to 3 crossings, although 2 is more the norm. Large flange hubs should not be laced with more than 2 crossings.

[Robbos]

Thanks for the good advice. I'd already made my mind up about aluminum nipples as I've worked with them in the past and I don't find the minuscule benefits outweigh the negatives. Too bad no one makes red annodized brass nipples!
Interesting about the two vs three cross- I guess I was somewhat indoctrinated by my time at Barnetts and I always assumed three cross was better-stronger, more resistant, comfier, etc.. Definitely not into radial lacing. Re: Old Potatoes comments about spoke count- I agree that 32 makes more sense (for the meagre 6-7 grams it adds) but my score on the hubs and rims were on the 28 holes. Heck, I really don't even need these things, I really just enjoy building good wheels.
I thought the 1.5mm butting on Revolution spokes would be to flexy for my 185 pounds, no?

[dvancleve]

My only thought on this, based on my somewhat limited experience but as a 200lbs+ rider, is that if a 28 spoke rear wheel is strong enough for you, you don't need a 28 front. I rode a 24/28 set laced with the Velocity Fusion rims (pretty beefy) for 1000 miles or so before selling them, no issues on pretty bad roads. With that thought in mind, I personally would do 2x in the front with 2.0/1.5 spokes and save a few grams. I would also consider either 3x/2x or 2x/3x for the rear wheel. Really doesn't matter much though :)

Doug

[rilz]

I know you might have already figured out spokes, but this place is dirt cheap. It's a bmx store, but they still have spokes up to 300 mm and the prices are great.

https://www.danscomp.com/shop-RACE/sg3/BMX+Racing+Spokes+and+Nipples.html

[regularguy412]

Thanks for the good advice. I'd already made my mind up about aluminum nipples as I've worked with them in the past and I don't find the minuscule benefits outweigh the negatives. Too bad no one makes red annodized brass nipples!
Interesting about the two vs three cross- I guess I was somewhat indoctrinated by my time at Barnetts and I always assumed three cross was better-stronger, more resistant, comfier, etc.. Definitely not into radial lacing. Re: Old Potatoes comments about spoke count- I agree that 32 makes more sense (for the meagre 6-7 grams it adds) but my score on the hubs and rims were on the 28 holes. Heck, I really don't even need these things, I really just enjoy building good wheels.
I thought the 1.5mm butting on Revolution spokes would be to flexy for my 185 pounds, no?

FWIW, I built up some DT Swiss RR 1.2 rims with Revolution spokes a few years ago form my fixie. Granted, they are 32 hole, 3x and on IRO high flange hubs, but I weigh around 185 and I find them comfy. Dunno if it would make much difference if the rear wheel has some dish for a cassette or not. Have a few thousand miles on them and have not yet had to touch them for truing since built.

MIke in AR:beer:

[oldpotatoe]

FWIW, I built up some DT Swiss RR 1.2 rims with Revolution spokes a few years ago form my fixie. Granted, they are 32 hole, 3x and on IRO high flange hubs, but I weigh around 185 and I find them comfy. Dunno if it would make much difference if the rear wheel has some dish for a cassette or not. Have a few thousand miles on them and have not yet had to touch them for truing since built.

MIke in AR:beer:

1.2 Are now 585, weight of 585 grams...burly rims. I've used these as replacement rims for 20h rears. I have them on my wet weather Moots.

[zzy]

I find that heavily butted spokes (Revolutions) wind up a fair bit in the building process, which can be annoying. And the weight difference is really minimal.

[brando]

CX Rays are great spokes. I'm >200 lbs.

[oldpotatoe]

CX Rays are great spokes. I'm >200 lbs.

Yes BUT still thin spokes and really expensive. Regardless of the marketing, not an auto 'great wheel' if ya use them. Not 'worth' it to me(including DT Aerolights), with 'worth' being a big word.

[jc031699]

I know you might have already figured out spokes, but this place is dirt cheap. It's a bmx store, but they still have spokes up to 300 mm and the prices are great.

https://www.danscomp.com/shop-RACE/sg3/BMX+Racing+Spokes+and+Nipples.html

Thanks -that is fantastic, added to bookmarks

[BLD 25]

Thanks -that is fantastic, added to bookmarks

Yep, that is cheap for race spokes

[BLD 25]

I find that heavily butted spokes (Revolutions) wind up a fair bit in the building process, which can be annoying. And the weight difference is really minimal.

I found the windup with sapim lasers to be quite frustrating and may go with the sapim race next time

[dvancleve]

DansComp is my standard source for Sapim Race or Leaders, but there are places with better prices on Lasers (Pandora Wheels). For me it usually comes down to whether the order is mostly Lasers or mostly Race since the shipping of two orders will eat up any minor savings on spokes.

Doug

[Vinci]

DansComp is my standard source for Sapim Race or Leaders, but there are places with better prices on Lasers (Pandora Wheels). For me it usually comes down to whether the order is mostly Lasers or mostly Race since the shipping of two orders will eat up any minor savings on spokes. Also, DC provides 16mm brass nipples which I usually don't use as I prefer 12mm or rarely 14mm.

Doug

Thanks for the tip! Pandora has spokes WAY cheaper than the sources I had been shopping.

[cnighbor1]

Here is what I build per Robert Freeman's of Davidson advice
DT Revolution double butted in a three cross front and rear. I run a thicker set of spokes on the drive side, 14gage 15 cage No problems go to DT web site and read about Revolution spokes
DT web site notes this about their "DT revolution® spokes
The award winning DT revolution® spoke. The lightest round spoke we manufacture. It is perfect for the rider looking to find the lightest round spoke for any wheel application. This spoke definitely is ready for heavy use and lightweight performance.''
http://www.dtswiss.com/Components/Spokes/DT-revolution
Charles at 155 1/2 lbs.

[Gaucho410]

Here is what I build per Robert Freeman's of Davidson advice
DT Revolution double butted in a three cross front and rear. I run a thicker set of spokes on the drive side, 14gage 15 cage No problems go to DT web site and read about Revolution spokes
DT web site notes this about their "DT revolution® spokes
The award winning DT revolution® spoke. The lightest round spoke we manufacture. It is perfect for the rider looking to find the lightest round spoke for any wheel application. This spoke definitely is ready for heavy use and lightweight performance.''
http://www.dtswiss.com/Components/Spokes/DT-revolution
Charles at 155 1/2 lbs.

What spoke count?

[zacstanley]

This may have been mentioned already but http://www.bikehubstore.com/

has great prices on Sapim.

I would also say aluminum aren't worth the maintenance they require. Brass be good!

Zac

[Robbos]

So I going ahead with Competition spokes front and rear, three cross. Like the idea of Revolutions on the front, but I need to stick to a strict budget. I used the DT spoke calc and came up with the numbers bellow. Now, I assume(d) that pitch circle diameter is the distance from the spoke holes on opposing sides of the hubs and that flange distance is the distance from the axle nut ends (inside of the dropout) to the outside surface of the flange (I'm using Miche Primato racing hubs and Kinlin 270's for reference sake).

1. Seems odd that the driveside spokes would be longer, I would have assumed shorter with dishing to accommodate the cassette, no?

2. This is probably heresy for the purists, but do forumites think I can get away with using all the same spokes with a discrepancy of 3mm between the drive and non-driveside spokes? It is far cheaper for me to buy a box of 75 competitions in 290 that to start buying different lengths!

Thanks in advance; as always, the great advice is very appreciated.

[dan682]

Some of your measurements are wrong.

Flange distance is the distance from the flange to the center of the hub. So on the front (100mm wide) that would be 50mm minus the distance from the locknut to the flange. Same distance for both sides. Based on your measurement, this would be 36mm.

The rear (130mm wide) would be 65mm minus distance from locknut to flange. 18mm DS and 40.25 on NDS assuming your measurement are correct. That sounds about right, the DS will have shorter spokes on a dished wheel.

You don't want to use the same length spokes. They should be within 1mm of the calculated length.

Bikehubstore.com sells Sapim race spokes pretty cheap, 80 cents each for silver, basically the same as DT comp.

[Robbos]

Just figured out what I measured wrong, got some homework for tonight!

[Robbos]

Thanks for the advice Dan. Redid the measurements on my lunch break (the uncertainty was just eating away at me!) and I came away with a much more logical outcome.
Now I just have to source me some spokes!

[giverdada]

so i got some advice for my last build and it seems to be pretty great thus far: boiled linseed oil.

turns out this stuff has all kinds of applications, and i had some in my last classroom for printmaking applications in the visual art stream, but it was suggested to me to use as the threadlock compound on a radial front wheel build i did using sapim race spokes on an h plus son archetype to a generic 20h hub. it has been perfect. to use, i poured some of the oil into the cap, then dipped the spokes en masse to coat just the threads. as i built, i pulled them out one by one and threaded them into the nipples. the cool thing about the oil is that it's a lube when it's liquid, but, over time, it cures into a waxlike (but harder) consistency that works to lock the threads in. of course, a good turn of the nipple will unseat the lock, so it's perfectly workable as well. very cool stuff. it's also available at the local hardware store, and not nearly as toxic as other things. i have also used it as a framesaver on the inside of my steel commuter ss, and it was a complete mess but has hardened up quite nicely.

the other thing that i do that totally helps me is the lubing of the spoke holes in the rim. i'm sure ergott suggested it, and it has been great. i squeeze a bunch of phil's onto a surface, thread a nipple backwards onto a spoke, dip the nipple into the phil's, and dip that into each spoke hole, turning slightly to offload the grease. lubed spoke holes (hub flanges and rim bed) make tensioning a whole lot easier, and markedly reduce spoke wind up.

best of luck.

[thirdgenbird]

I've got a pair of those rims as well and was planning on using miche hubs with dt comp spokes. They may end up on my bike, they may end up on my wife's.

[zap]

I thought the 1.5mm butting on Revolution spokes would be to flexy for my 185 pounds, no?

Much depends on how you ride and what you expect.

I purchased a wheel set that was built with revo spokes. I weigh less (about 15 lbs) but when hammering up big ring climbs in the drops, wheel flex was noticeable. Also on swoopy high speed descents. I rebuilt the rear drive side with DT 14/15 spokes. It helped but I still was just not happy with the set.

Absolutely nothing wrong with aluminum nipples. All our tandem wheels have al nipples. Most likely you will break a spoke before an al nipple goes kaput.

[oldpotatoe]

Much depends on how you ride and what you expect.

I purchased a wheel set that was built with revo spokes. I weigh less (about 15 lbs) but when hammering up big ring climbs in the drops, wheel flex was noticeable. Also on swoopy high speed descents. I rebuilt the rear drive side with DT 14/15 spokes. It helped but I still was just not happy with the set.

Absolutely nothing wrong with aluminum nipples. All our tandem wheels have al nipples. Most likely you will break a spoke before an al nipple goes kaput.

Well, not In my experience, aluminum nips vs brass. I know this horse is dead but I saw many, many broken aluminum nips, far less broken spokes. Real common to see a wheel, 'broken spoke' says the owner, just a nipp. I have replaced all the aluminum nips on more than a few wheels. I kinda don't get it, the only thing that comes to mind is colors, otherwise they do nothing to help a wheel.

Over and out.

[Gaucho410]

Modern alloy nipples are really quite durable compared to the way they used to be. The real key is in using nipples made of a good, hard alloy that is resistant to deformation, and with a solid ano coating. Frequently, cheaper alloy nipples are made of 6061 and are raw finished, which doesn't do anyone any good, but nicer ones can be just as durable as brass in my experience.

As far as spoke prep goes, Linseed oil is a really good option if you're just building one wheel at a time. If you have to store prepped spokes, the stuff can make a big mess, but if you assemble the wheel right away, it's good stuff.

[mcteague]

Well, not I'm my experience, aluminum nips vs brass. I know this horse is dead but I saw many, many broken aluminum nips, far less broken spokes. Real common to see a wheel, 'broken spoke' says the owner, just a nipp. I have replaced all the aluminum nips on more than a few wheels. I kinda don't get it, the only thing that comes to mind is colors, otherwise they do nothing to help a wheel.

Over and out.

I sorta agree. However, when Joe Young built my wheels, two pair, he strongly recommended DT alum nipples so I let him do as he saw fit. Never any issues with either pair.

Tim

[regularguy412]

One more data point. I built my DT Swiss RR 1.2s (now 585's I believe) with the al nipples that came with the revo spokes. I used IRO high flange hubs. No issues after 7 years, but they also have no dish.

Mike in AR:beer:

[sw3759]

i'll add that i never broken a spoke but i have broken an alloy nipple.was 20+ years ago on 32 3x rear wheel built by excel sports..that spoke had way too much tension i think,since the bike was unridable and had to have someone pick me up.a better build and it probably would have not busted.started building my own soon after that.

[Robbos]

So I'm now ready to order my spokes. Lots of diverging opinions on spoke types, but to reiterate:
Kinlin 270's, 28 hole front and rear.
Miche hubs.
185 pound rider.
Three cross is my choice for the three options, I'm a traditionalist like that!
I see my options as:
1. Sapim Lasers for the front, Lasers non-drive side, Race drive side
2. Sapim Lasers front, Race rear.
3. Most economical, Race's all round.
So, are the Lasers going to give a noticeably smoother ride? (Hello can of worms!). I don't care about weight, I care about durability, strength and comfort.
Oh, and I'm going for Sapim's purely due to cost, not any issues with DT.
Your feedback is greatly appreciated!
Rob

[ultraman6970]

Honestly?? just built the front and the rear 3x with any spoke you want, and done.

[Robbos]

Honestly?? just built the front and the rear 3x with any spoke you want, and done.

I think my obsessive bike-nerd questions are inline with a fair amount of the questions found here, no? A sleep-deprived dad needs his silly obsessions. But seriously, no feedback on my questions?
Should i just lace the up with non-stainless, non-butted cheap spokes and be done with it?:bike:

[buldogge]

28H F+R

2x F+R

Lasers front and NDS
Race or Wheelsmith DB14 DS

Brass nips all around, or use the Sapim Polyax AL if you must go lighter.

My 2c.

-Mark in St. Louis

[thirdgenbird]

I've got the same rims and plan to buy the same hubs. I fully intend on doing 2x with dt Swiss comp spokes all round. Cheap, easy, strong.

[oldpotatoe]

So I'm now ready to order my spokes. Lots of diverging opinions on spoke types, but to reiterate:
Kinlin 270's, 28 hole front and rear.
Miche hubs.
185 pound rider.
Three cross is my choice for the three options, I'm a traditionalist like that!
I see my options as:
1. Sapim Lasers for the front, Lasers non-drive side, Race drive side
2. Sapim Lasers front, Race rear.
3. Most economical, Race's all round.
So, are the Lasers going to give a noticeably smoother ride? (Hello can of worms!). I don't care about weight, I care about durability, strength and comfort.
Oh, and I'm going for Sapim's purely due to cost, not any issues with DT.
Your feedback is greatly appreciated!
Rob

28h and those rims, do Race(or DT Comp) all around. 2 cross front and 3 cross rear, inside pulling.

Brass nipps....

[coreywood]

28h and those rims, do Race(or DT Comp) all around. 2 cross front and 3 cross rear, inside pulling.

Brass nipps....
Agree with oldpotatoe :

Race all around, 2x front and 3x rear, brass nips all(you don't care about weight).

Have to ask oldpotatoe, why pulling inside? Decreases bracing angle under pedal force. Are you shooting for clearance? Just curious. Tell me to p*ss off if I'm stepping.

Have fun with the build!

[coreywood]

[QUOTE=oldpotatoe;1631177]
.....inside pulling to minimize spoke overlap on the flange for the pulling spokes....

Question answered. Disregard previous bother, oldpotatoe.

[oldpotatoe]

Agree with oldpotatoe :

Race all around, 2x front and 3x rear, brass nips all(you don't care about weight).

Have to ask oldpotatoe, why pulling inside? Decreases bracing angle under pedal force. Are you shooting for clearance? Just curious. Tell me to p*ss off if I'm stepping.

Have fun with the build!

28h and 3 cross, particularly on a biggish flange makes for a lot of spoke overlap on the flange. I prefer that overlap on the pulling spoke on the inside. Less of an angle to the rim.