are comfort and performance fundamentally at odds?

[Climb01742]

in theory, i suppose the answer is no. but in practice, i ain't so sure. what follows is based purely one my experience.

based on what i've ridden, performance seems to be related to stiffness. by performance i mean efficiency. the opposite of sluggish. snap. jump. acceleration. putting power into the pedals and getting quick, nearly equal acceleration out of it.

and stiff ain't comfortable. there's a price for stiff. lately, i've been doing a lot of big ring intervals on lousy new england roads. 53-15 @ 23-24 mph over bad pavement. which is why i've been pondering the trade-off of comfort -- being able to ride long and hard w/o feeling beat up -- and performance. my ridley and my time are light and efficient, yet after a 2 or 3 hour hard ride, i'll feel it. while it still fit me, my ottrott was my most forgiving, smoothest bike, yet it gave up something in snap to the time or my parlee -- yet was noticeably more forgiving over bad roads.

further back in the past, my marcelo was incredibly efficient, but man, over bad pavement, you felt it. versus my csi or cIII, which were more forgiving, yet less snappy.

so i ask...is the price of snap, stiffness? and thus some degree of harshness? and is the price of comfort some degree of sluggishness? should i just accept that there is a trade-off, or as is my wont, continue seeking the holy grail? how could performance and comfort peacefully co-exist? or should i just shut up and move somewhere with better roads? ;)

[davids]

Climb,

Some questions for you - Is that "snap" you're talking about the same as performance? Or is it merely a specific sensation the frame is feeding back to you? Are you any slower on your more comfortable frames?

[Smiley]

Climb , You my friend are learning what I found out a long time ago , My Hors is by far the smoothest most comfortable bike I have ridden . Alll the Ottrott's I test rode put my bike to SHAME when it came to Snap and jump . But there was my comprimise. My new Uniscasi is an attempt to build SNAP back into a new frame with different performance features like : Lower BB and a longer trail ( 5.9 ) PLUS I am building the bike with longer chainstays (The Rapid Tour rear end) for a smoother ride . I also plan on using wider tires and new custom wheels built by Jeremy to accomdate these tires better and make them light yet more robust for the roads around here that are lacking in maintenance. All and all this new bike will never be as smooth as my Hors but my bet is it will come close with the added benefit of SNAP to the frame that I have missed for a long time and I a remember everytime I jump on an Ottrott for a ride. Before I forget the couplers that I am also adding make for a really good travel or easy to break down and take in any car bike too. These couplers I have been told add some serius stiffness to the DT and TT so it should be interesting to ride this new rig.

I delibertaly chose to build this bike in Steel as I did not want to have ride comparisons to my Ti Hors Categorie with any other Ti bike. Think your roads are bad try going to West Texas and doing the Hotter then Hell 100 , Now those roads are bad for 100 miles :)

The answer to your question is YES performance and comfort they way you look at it are at ODDS . I say this with lots of respect to you since you have ridden some if NOT the best bike brands in the world and have the choices to sort out what you like and what you did not like. I think in your comparisoon of the Hors Cat that you wrote many moons ago you did not like the same things you lament here in this post , I did not recall you not liking the ride smoothness . But this is what I mean by liking several bikes for different duties. If the road gets crappy I am taking my Hors out. That may hopefully change with the Uniscasi :)

[1centaur]

Echoing davids, that was the conclusion of my Calfee/Crumpton/Parlee comparo - the Parlee felt the most efficient but the Crumpton was faster and thus won the comparo since I could get comfort and performance - but at the loss of the perception of performance which relates to a certain kind of stiffness.

Echoing Smiley, different horses for different courses. Training can really take the joy out of cycling. Changing it up can give you a more balanced cycling life (or you can ride Topolinos on a stiff frame and/or do some of what he's doing).

[Sandy]

How about riding a "stiff responsive" bike with wider tires with lower psi or even the same tires that you use with lower psi? How about a different set of wheels that might be more comfortable?

My perception of the Ottrott is the exact opposite of yours. I find it very "snappy" but not giving the "smooth" ride quality that you have noted. Different riders and undoutedly different tube choices.

I am trying wider tires wih less psi for several reasons- mostly to give me a better quality ride, using less psi, and losing almost nothing or probably nothing in speed.

So Simple Sandy's Simple Solution- Tire or wheel changes.


Simple Sandy

[Dr. Doofus]

j.o., bro

with all the scratch you've put out on bikes, why have you not done the obvious thing?

write a check to the guy with the foofy white dog

only dudes doof sees on red chester molesters are the 1-2 fields...if those bikes weren't "performance" machines, dudes in those fields wouldn't be on them

[Sandy]

Who is the guy with the foofy white dog, Tom Kellogg? What does foofy mean?



Sandy

[Len J]

Sandy:

I think he's talking about e-richie.

Len

[93legendti]

I have 2 Ottrott's: a 2002 and a 2005 SN ST. The notion that there is a bike out there that is more efficient and thus, faster, is hard to fathom (except maybe the Meivici). As efficient as the '02 is, the '05 is a rocket--even warming up the thing just jumps (whether it is because of the new 10 speed cranks; sloping TT, or it was built to race, I do not know).

I think some people might confuse "snap" (as in bike "bounce" from road surface uneveness) for speed--just as some baseball players think bouncing a throw from Short or Third base to the First basement is faster than throwing the ball on the fly, or sliding into First Base to leg out a hit is faster than running thru the bag--they might "feel" faster but they are not. To me, snap is some thing I do NOT want to feel. IMHO, if I feel snap, I am experiencing lag/sag as in waiting for the frame to respond to a heavy input. To me efficiency is smoothness-- as in instant response to pedal/crank input. atmo, imho, ymmv.

[Len J]

I certinly haven't ridden as many bikes as you have, but I think that there are a few things that you are forgetting.

As the Jerk (I think ) likes to say, there are different bikes for different purposes. I think Comfort and Performance (As you define it, snap) have to be balanced for the particuar application that you are intending the bike for. An ultra stiff, light, "snappy" bike might be perfect for 1.5 hours up MT washington, but might be hell for the 3 hour training ride that you need to do to get ready for it. I find that after a certain amount of time, the efficiency of a super snappy frame becomes eroded because of the fatigue that it engenders by it's harshness. I think I am much more efficient on a 100 mile ride by staying comfortable.

For me, (and I have to admit, I haven't ridden the Time or many super stiff bikes), the best combination of comfort & efficiency is my Ottrott. In reading your query above, I seem to remember that you spec'd your bikes to have some "springyness" for climbing that you liked......am I correct? If so, this may be where you are losing some performance. Just a guess.

Interesting question, I'm looking forward to reading responses from those more knowledgable than me.

Len

[Sandy]

Sandy:

I think he's talking about e-richie.

Len

Bingo! I think that you are correct. Tom's dog is more yellowish in color, so I was a little confused about the white color. I now remember e-RICHIE's precious little white dog dressed with an e-RICHIE red jacket.


Shilo Shepherd Sandy

[Smiley]

SNAP , what is it defined as then , I think of snap as response in the BB when we jump on the pedals the bike just loses no energy in moving forward. Stiff I know what that feels like.
Many including Serotta have used SNAP to define performance , see the 06 bulletin where that word was used. I don't think SNAP is a dirty word .

[David Kirk]

Hey Mr. Climb,

Are you measurabley slower on a more comfortable bike or does it just not "feel" as fast?

Dave

[Smiley]

Climb for what its worth you really may want to talk to Kelly or Steve about a Meivici , no kidding aside when I spoke to them about this bike they all said its got that SNAP with a little more softness in the ride , Tunable tubes more so then the Ottrott . Now I know you don't want to hear that :) But this machine maybe the one for you. I think you maybe able to Demo Jason Clarks bike as I think he's your NEW size .

[chrisroph]

When you answer D Kirk's q, you will have your answer.

[coylifut]

considering tire pressure has more effect on comfort than frame material, I'd say no.

[slowgoing]

Stick some 25mm tires on there. I did and noticed a difference immediately.

[jerk]

considering tire pressure has more effect on comfort than frame material, I'd say no.


not true....it has a different effect and not the one the jerk thinks climb-o is talking about. fat tires aren't going to turn a dogma into a vitus.....but the jerk would also give that geometry has the most effect on how a bike does what it does; for instance carting the jerk's hungover 2hour of sleep fat carcass around for three hours today with some guys who wanted to go "fast". fortunatly the jerk was so pickled from the previous nights festivities that it did't matter that he forgot his leg warmers.....and booties.....and hat.....and gloves.....and sense of decency.......

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

fortunatly the jerk was so pickled from the previous nights festivities that it did't matter that he forgot his leg warmers.....and booties.....and hat.....and gloves.....and sense of decency.......
jerk


a good packing list for those who are provo bound yo

[jerk]

a good packing list for those who are provo bound yo

word.

[catulle]

word.


Ehemmm... They want to know if you´ll be taking them to Provo after all. They told me you said you would.

[Climb01742]

Hey Mr. Climb,

Are you measurabley slower on a more comfortable bike or does it just not "feel" as fast?

Dave

a fair, and good, question. it depends on how you define "fast". over the course of an entire ride, the answer is probably "no", a more comfortable bike isn't slower. but within the ride, at moments when you want a snap of acceleration, more comfy frames can feel slower. and yes, part of this is "feel", the perception of speed. but for me anyway, that perception adds to the enjoyment of a ride.

[H.Frank Beshear]

If the answer to which is faster is no Climb then I have to ask? At the end of the day would you have rather ridden the bike or be ridden by the bike? Frank

[Fixed]

Hey Mr. Climb,

Are you measurabley slower on a more comfortable bike or does it just not "feel" as fast?

Dave post of the night i.m.h.o. cheers
bro two bikes apples and oranges

[Samster]

if you're "performing," you're probably not "comfortable." at least on bike.

what does 'word' stand for?

[Grant McLean]

what does 'word' stand for?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=word+to+your+mother

-g

[e-RICHIE]

it depends what you mean by is.

[spiderman]

but my ride report for saturday seems to fit here.
i rode the same 16 mile loop twice.
the first in a heavy wind with my wife and two friends.
i was on the cIII fixie for the first ride.
it felt great! smooth over rough pavement...
responsive and fast.
later in the day,
i went by myself on the ottrott st.
i felt like i was in a panic by the end of the ride...
i hadn't been on my 'dream bike' outside for months
and it felt hollow, harsh, hard and slow...
i had put the new espresso tubulars on my wife's crl/mavic carbones...
...she loved them and thought they were smooth and fast.
i had dugast 28 cross tires on the cIII/mavic ssc tubulars
and sprinters on the ottrott/shimano carbon tubulars.
(brooks swallows on both)

[palincss]

in theory, i suppose the answer is no. but in practice, i ain't so sure. what follows is based purely one my experience.

based on what i've ridden, performance seems to be related to stiffness. by performance i mean efficiency. the opposite of sluggish. snap. jump. acceleration. putting power into the pedals and getting quick, nearly equal acceleration out of it.



There are other definitions of "performance". It all depends on your goal. If your goal includes rides hundreds of km long that last for more than a dozen hours, comfort and stability are going to be a lot more important than acceleration.

And there are other views about stiffness, too. There are some folks who believe a flexible frame will let them surge over hills a lot better than one that is much more rigid (i.e., "stiff"). Readers of VBQ willl recall several articles recently that have spoken of this.

I think the biggest thing about frame stiffness is that it is easy to measure; hence it became something, along with weight, that writers in bicycle magazines could readily point to. I can recall reading about highly regarded Italian racing frames with excellent records in professional competition that were so unstiff as to be easy to provoke into upshifts while climbing due to frame flex.

[Climb01742]

And there are other views about stiffness, too. There are some folks who believe a flexible frame will let them surge over hills a lot better than one that is much more rigid (i.e., "stiff"). Readers of VBQ willl recall several articles recently that have spoken of this.


i am fully in the camp of some flex is quite good. especially for out of the saddle climbing. with the right flex, the frame moves with you, not against you.

[e-RICHIE]

i am fully in the camp of some flex is quite good. especially for out of the saddle climbing. with the right flex, the frame moves with you, not against you.



how would you even know what's flexing in my humble opinion?
if i recall correctly, it's so hard to discern from the frame to the
tires, to the heat-treated h'bars. it's a freakin' gestalt-a-thon,
you're out.
beef, it's what's for dinner according to my opinion.

[jerk]

how would you even know what's flexing in my humble opinion?
if i recall correctly, it's so hard to discern from the frame to the
tires, to the heat-treated h'bars. it's a freakin' gestalt-a-thon,
you're out.
beef, it's what's for dinner according to my opinion.


dude, his arm is fexng imho bro.

[e-RICHIE]

dude... <cut>


what does dude stand for?

[jerk]

"daring underachiement dictates elasticity" its about flex imho.

[Climb01742]

how would you even know what's flexing in my humble opinion?
if i recall correctly, it's so hard to discern from the frame to the
tires, to the heat-treated h'bars. it's a freakin' gestalt-a-thon,
you're out.
beef, it's what's for dinner according to my opinion.

discussions with folks like ben serotta, kelly bedford and david kirk.

[Eric E]

is what my first Ti Serotta did - once it started wiggling, it would continue at its own pace, both up hills while standing and down hills (AKA speed wobble). My next, oversized Ti frame that Serotta replaced the first frame which flexes with me.

As for comfort vs performance, I'm sure that my laid-back, all-day touring geometry would be a handicap if I was doing crit racing...

Eric

[Samster]

what does dude stand for?
don't make fun of the samster. yo.

[e-RICHIE]

discussions with folks like ben serotta, kelly bedford and david kirk.


whoops i didn't mean you when i posted
"how would you even know what's flexing?",
i meant how would one even know what's flexing?
i know i can't tell.
sorry - that was my point.



ps what those 3 say about how you/one can tell?

[Climb01742]

ps what those 3 say about how you/one can tell?

we talked about the principle of how frame stiffness or flex impacts climbing. some small parts were about specific frames i had or that they would build for me, but the main things were more abstract. all three mentioned a story about when serotta was making frames for coors light, and riders kept asking serotta to build stiffer and stiffer frames to climb better. but past a certain point, stiffness hinders how well a frame climbs (or perhaps more accurately, reacts under the loads of climbing.) the consensus was, some flex helps.

[Tom Kellogg]

For the most part, we approach ride comfort and drive train stiffness as separate things. Let me see if I can explain;

When we are trying to "improve" the ride of a given frame design, we work on ways to disassociate the two wheel axles from the seat tube in the vertical plane. i.e. picture the axles as being sprung relative to the seat tube. Of course, with a diamond frame, there is only so much one can do to accomplish this without active suspension, but there are ways to get a bit of the much talked about "vertical compliance." Curved seat stays made of a material which is especially resilient (read steel or Ti) is one trick. Composites don't work very well in this mode because while they can be tuned to flex properly, they tend to absorb energy input and not return it very efficiently. An obvious example of this sort of rear end design is of course Dave Kirk's "suspended" frame. Simply replacing steel or Ti tubes with composites don't work at all in this mode. The folks that add composite seat stays and seat tubes and claim vertical compliance are simply full of it. Composites compress like dog dodo. Composite substitutions may dampen vibration, but that is something entirely different from compliance.

The trick is of course to increase vertical compliance while increasing torsional rigidity or at least maintaining it. That is actually easier than it may sound. The tubes that contribute much to a frame's torsional stiffness are not necessarily the ones which make it vertically stiff. Lucky for all of us... There are two areas of torsional rigidity that most concern us. The bottom bracket area needs to stay in reasonable torsional alignment with the rear axle (BB stiffness) and the head tube and seat tube need to stay pretty much "in plane" with each other.

I have never ridden a non suspended frame that has too much vertical compliance. I have ridden quite a few frames that do not have enough torsional rigidity. Over the years, most builders have developed ways of coming up with reasonable balances between the two goals of vertical give and torsional rigidity. Most of us continue to work at it. The really good builders continue and will likely never give up.

Compromise necessary? ... maybe some day, but I know that Ben, David, Peter, Richard, Sasha ... and I have not said "uncle" yet.

[e-RICHIE]

we talked about the principle of how frame stiffness or flex impacts climbing. some small parts were about specific frames i had or that they would build for me, but the main things were more abstract.<cut>


<snipped>
When we are trying to "improve" the ride of a given frame design, we work on ways to disassociate the two wheel axles from the seat tube in the vertical plane. i.e. picture the axles as being sprung relative to the seat tube.<cut>Compromise necessary? ... maybe some day, but I know that Ben, David, Peter, Richard, Sasha ... and I have not said "uncle" yet.


i'm crying uncle now. i must be the anti-analytical guy.
i don't understand any of the engineering speak atmo.
time to fold 'em!

[93legendti]

For the most part, we approach ride comfort and drive train stiffness as separate things. Let me see if I can explain;

When we are trying to "improve" the ride of a given frame design, we work on ways to disassociate the two wheel axles from the seat tube in the vertical plane. i.e. picture the axles as being sprung relative to the seat tube. Of course, with a diamond frame, there is only so much one can do to accomplish this without active suspension, but there are ways to get a bit of the much talked about "vertical compliance." Curved seat stays made of a material which is especially resilient (read steel or Ti) is one trick. Composites don't work very well in this mode because while they can be tuned to flex properly, they tend to absorb energy input and not return it very efficiently. An obvious example of this sort of rear end design is of course Dave Kirk's "suspended" frame. Simply replacing steel or Ti tubes with composites don't work at all in this mode. The folks that add composite seat stays and seat tubes and claim vertical compliance are simply full of it. Composites compress like dog dodo. Composite substitutions may dampen vibration, but that is something entirely different from compliance.

The trick is of course to increase vertical compliance while increasing torsional rigidity or at least maintaining it. That is actually easier than it may sound. The tubes that contribute much to a frame's torsional stiffness are not necessarily the ones which make it vertically stiff. Lucky for all of us... There are two areas of torsional rigidity that most concern us. The bottom bracket area needs to stay in reasonable torsional alignment with the rear axle (BB stiffness) and the head tube and seat tube need to stay pretty much "in plane" with each other.

I have never ridden a non suspended frame that has too much vertical compliance. I have ridden quite a few frames that do not have enough torsional rigidity. Over the years, most builders have developed ways of coming up with reasonable balances between the two goals of vertical give and torsional rigidity. Most of us continue to work at it. The really good builders continue and will likely never give up.

Compromise necessary? ... maybe some day, but I know that Ben, David, Peter, Richard, Sasha ... and I have not said "uncle" yet.

If I may: in other words, "tune" the BB area (including chainstays and downtube) for stiffness/efficiency and "tune" the seatstays for comfort?

[e-RICHIE]

If I may: in other words, tune the BB area (including chainstays and downtube) for stiffness/efficiency and tune the seatstays for comfort?


tune?!
help a brother.
how is that done?

[Climb01742]

tune?!
help a brother.
how is that done?

is tubing diameter one way? and/or shaping the tubes?

[93legendti]

tune?!
help a brother.
how is that done?

Don't go rhetorical on me....I'm gonna get cees to write up a formula.

[Fixed]

bro i know i dumbest cat here and i love my old sl frame but when i put it in a 53x 12 and take off from a stand still ( stomps) my chain rubs the front der. on my right pedal stroke .but that 's ok i still reach for it when -

ever i' m goin out for a long ride by myself .cheers :bike: cheers :beer:
bro here is something funny I get a cadd 7 to do better in races and my old bike get's me a top 10 against a bunch of pro 1,2,3, in the t.t. my best this year .*** i.m.h.o. :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

is tubing diameter one way? and/or shaping the tubes?


ya' got me.
all kidding aside, i'm into frame design and fit.
with proper construction, <almost> any material
commonly available through industry will work
fine. but hey - i stopped at 12th grade, albeit at
a fine ivy league feeder boy's school!!

[catulle]

ya' got me.
all kidding aside, i'm into frame design and fit.
with proper construction, <almost> any material
commonly available through industry will work
fine. but hey - i stopped at 12th grade, albeit at
a fine ivy league feeder boy's school!!

Was that Brokeback Academy by any chance? Mighty good school.

[e-RICHIE]

Was that Brokeback Academy by any chance? Mighty good school.


much to my consternation, it became coed in
my senior year. an experiment in bringing the
old gold and blue into the 20th century, it was
said to be. not my bag imho.

[catulle]

much to my consternation, it became coed in
my senior year. an experiment in bringing the
old gold and blue into the 20th century, it was
said to be. not my bag imho.

Sorry, I couldn't help it. This place is deforming my character. Too much for an old forest toad.

[e-RICHIE]

Sorry, I couldn't help it. This place is deforming my character. Too much for an old forest toad.


i know.
you seem like a pro-coed kinda' guy.

[Tom Kellogg]

93legendti

I can't find the time to post as much as I'd like, but here is a bit of a response:

Yes, the most efficient way to stiffen up a BB is to use torsionally stiffer chain stays and dropouts. I say most efficient because the down tube and seat tube support the BB as well, but increasing BB stiffness using "beefier" seat tubes and down tubes adds more mass for a similar result or as much mass for a smaller result. The other advantage to using the chain stays is that they have no negative effect on vertical compliance. Cake and eat it too...

Vertical compliance; Yes, some sort of curved seat stays will do the trick in the rear as long as there is sufficient curve. Does it make a big difference? As usual, it all depends. Dave Kirk's frames do indeed have more vertical compliance. As long as it is done correctly, there is benefit. Is it worth it if you don't like the looks? Likely not. There are tricks we can use to increase front end compliance outside of the fork as well ... I will leave it at that. Nighty night

[jerk]

imho bro the jerk's time had a top tube that was too flexy. when you can make the head tube flop from side to side like a see-saw...you got to ride the thing differently and the jerk doesn't want to ride the thing differently....he's stuck in his ways and those include pushing big gears, getting dropped on hills longer than 1000m in length and practicing his lead out because with roy munson in the race his new team has two distinct chances for victory.

those litespeeds lotto used to ride were even worse. those guys liked to flick the top tubes with their forefingers to start the thing oscillating out of control....it was funny. and they never once blamed mr. pacenti who imho had reservations about those awful pieces of garbage anyway.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

<snipped>...because with roy munson in the race his new team has two distinct chances for victory.


two distinct chances?
darn. first the conversation about elastic dampening
torsional characteristics and now this math koan. i am
at a low; maybe college was a good idea.

[jerk]

two distinct chances?
darn. first the conversation about elastic dampening
torsional characteristics and now this math koan. i am
at a low; maybe college was a good idea.

if you go to college with munson you guys could share a triple.

jerk

[David Kirk]

93legendti

I can't find the time to post as much as I'd like, but here is a bit of a response:

Yes, the most efficient way to stiffen up a BB is to use torsionally stiffer chain stays and dropouts. I say most efficient because the down tube and seat tube support the BB as well, but increasing BB stiffness using "beefier" seat tubes and down tubes adds more mass for a similar result or as much mass for a smaller result. The other advantage to using the chain stays is that they have no negative effect on vertical compliance. Cake and eat it too...

Vertical compliance; Yes, some sort of curved seat stays will do the trick in the rear as long as there is sufficient curve. Does it make a big difference? As usual, it all depends. Dave Kirk's frames do indeed have more vertical compliance. As long as it is done correctly, there is benefit. Is it worth it if you don't like the looks? Likely not. There are tricks we can use to increase front end compliance outside of the fork as well ... I will leave it at that. Nighty night

Word up.

Dave

[jerk]

bikes don't need to be any stiffer in the bb than even the lowest end 500 road bike is. they need to be stiffer front to back imho bro.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

if you go to college with munson you guys could share a triple.

jerk


i'm missin' something.

[Grant McLean]

Some thoughts on this subject from my experience...

Like the Jerk, I find that too much top tube lateral flex does
weird things to the ride quality. But in an ideal world, some
fore-aft flex of the front wheel when you hit a bump really smooths
things out a lot.

I saw at Cervelo a testing machine that looks like it's trying
to pop the head tube off a clamped frame by pushing down on the
fork at the front drop outs. I couldn't believe how much
the top tube was arching upwards! The pipe that represented the
fork was travelling more than two inches backwards, 100%
from front triangle flex.

At the time, a light bulb kinda went off over my head.
Since then I've felt that rear stay compliance
was WAY overstated. I feel smoothness over bumps comes
from this flex, not flex from the rear wheel being pushed up.
My "harsh" riding C40 is very stiff in the front triangle,
and my smooth riding six13 is far more flexible in the fore-aft
plane. You can feel it at the handlebar. Tell me now rear wheel
compliance effects that? Also, during bumps out of the saddle,
the stiffer front triangle feels a lot more rough at the handlebar.

Your milage my vary.

-g

[jerk]

i'm missin' something.


what?

its like a heart attack only even funnier.....

triple?

here you go imho bro iroc awacs scuba ped.

[e-RICHIE]

what?

its like a heart attack only even funnier.....

triple?

here you go imho bro iroc awacs scuba ped.


i feel ya'.
which one are roy?

[Tom Kellogg]

Grant:

Right you are. Take a look at the Merlin Works frames and you will see how I addressed that issue directly. Rear end vertical compliance is in fact less noticable than front end compliance but if we can get a bit more of it, why not?

The Jerk is right as well. Torsional stiffness in the front end (or really between the two axles) is even more important than just drivetrain stiffness. I hate the feel of handlebars that seem to move all over the place when I am descending at a speed that is too high for my advanced years. The tighter one can keep a frame in torsion, front to back the better.

[davids]

This discussion of torsional stiffness at front end rings true, and it helps explain why Serotta's design choices for the Ottrott/Nove/Fierte IT work so well - Those carbon top and down tubes result in a frame that is torsionally stiff and nicely damped.

Just another example of why this forum totally rocks. Thanks guys. :beer:

[Grant McLean]

Grant:

Right you are. Take a look at the Merlin Works frames and you will see how I addressed that issue directly. Rear end vertical compliance is in fact less noticable than front end compliance but if we can get a bit more of it, why not?


Thanks for confirming that, Mr. Kellogg.

It's a funny thing that we perceive solid things at rest as being, well, solid.
When you see a frame strapped into torture machine, you start to realize
how active and dynamic the ride quality really is! I have a very tall friend
who can stand flat foot over the saddle of any of my bikes, and he just
LOVES to freak me out by twisting the bars and noodleing my whole bike!

-grant

[slowgoing]

great thread.

[Climb01742]

tom kellogg, thanks alot for taking the time to post. your explanations are some of the clearest, most helpful i've heard. perhaps the best compliment i can give you is...you said it in such a way that i actually got it...no small achievement on your part! ;)

[theprep]

tom kellogg, thanks alot for taking the time to post. your explanations are some of the clearest, most helpful i've heard. perhaps the best compliment i can give you is...you said it in such a way that i actually got it...no small achievement on your part! ;)

Climb - I think you are a bright guy. You seem to say things I wish I said. :)

JERK "imho bro the jerk's time had a top tube that was too flexy" - In the sprint for Stage 4 of Paris Nice, when Boonen jumped his bike "fell out of gear" or skipped again. Is he just so strong that he is flexing the rear triangle or is it simply a misadjusted drivetrain. This has happened 4 or 5 times now.

The rear wheel came 6 inches off the ground when it skipped and he still won the sprint.

cheers,
Joe

[Climb01742]

JERK "imho bro the jerk's time had a top tube that was too flexy" - In the sprint for Stage 4 of Paris Nice, when Boonen jumped his bike "fell out of gear" or skipped again. Is he just so strong that he is flexing the rear triangle or is it simply a misadjusted drivetrain. This has happened 4 or 5 times now.

The rear wheel came 6 inches off the ground when it skipped and he still won the sprint.

cheers,
Joe

would someone as strong as boonen flex any frame? i wonder about ale-jet and his dogma last year? a dogma is supposed to be way stiff. jerk, have you ever flexed your BLE?

[e-RICHIE]

would someone as strong as boonen flex any frame? i wonder about ale-jet and his dogma last year? a dogma is supposed to be way stiff. jerk, have you ever flexed your BLE?


maybe it was a mechanical issue
rather than a frame design issue?

[theprep]

maybe it was a mechanical issue
rather than a frame design issue?

Could the mechanic for one of the best riders in the world get the rear deraileur adjustment wrong 4 or 5 times with out loosing his job?

If the frame is not flexing to cause the skipping, perhaps there just is not enough chain WRAP around an 11 tooth cog to transmit his power to the ground.

If I was Boonen's mechanic, I'd make his little cog a 12 and put a 58 tooth big ring on. :D Let him try that for a while and see if it skips.

[e-RICHIE]

Could the mechanic for one of the best riders in the world get the rear deraileur adjustment wrong 4 or 5 times with out loosing his job?


it's easier to sack the mechanic than to "fire" the bicycle sponsor?

[jerk]

would someone as strong as boonen flex any frame? i wonder about ale-jet and his dogma last year? a dogma is supposed to be way stiff. jerk, have you ever flexed your BLE?


no the jerk has never flexed his ble.
nor did he ever flex his spx merckx
nor did he ever flex his c50.

the time has one of the stiffest, snappiest drivtrains around- its toptube is just a bit flexy in the big sizes. boonen's bike gets a special top tube.


jerk

[lnomalley]

also.. "flex' is never just flex.... not all flex is bad to a degree. some flex loses/dissapates energy, and some stores and returns it, and some is inconsequential along a chain of events starting with the tire sidewalls and ending with the stem bars and ... even the road surface. things are never just this easy. and yeah..the jerk knows about time and custom (which they might go public with in a few years).

[e-RICHIE]

Could the mechanic for one of the best riders in the world get the rear deraileur adjustment wrong 4 or 5 times with out loosing his job?

If the frame is not flexing to cause the skipping, perhaps there just is not enough chain WRAP around an 11 tooth cog to transmit his power to the ground.

If I was Boonen's mechanic, I'd make his little cog a 12 and put a 58 tooth big ring on. :D Let him try that for a while and see if it skips.

bump
well looky here...
from http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/mar06/mar20news
Boonen also explained that a small mechanical in the final sprint prevented him from obtaining a higher placing, possibly outsprinting Alessandro Petacchi. "I couldn't get the chain on the 11," he recalled, speaking of the moment when he was on Petacchi's wheel in the last few hundred metres of the Via Roma. "It's the third time this has happened this year. But for me it was better that Pozzato won. I could sense that Milram was losing, as the panic was so great that Zabel went to the front 1500 metres from the finish and drove himself right out of it."

[chrisroph]

I'm lucky to have two TK frames and they indeed are stiff yet very comfortable. They both share huge chainstays. That dude knows his stuff.

[scottcw2]

I'm sure most have already read this, but I will post the link anyway:

Frame Flex (http://www.kirkframeworks.com/Flex.htm)

[e-RICHIE]

Could the mechanic for one of the best riders in the world get the rear deraileur adjustment wrong 4 or 5 times with out loosing his job?

If the frame is not flexing to cause the skipping, perhaps there just is not enough chain WRAP around an 11 tooth cog to transmit his power to the ground.

If I was Boonen's mechanic, I'd make his little cog a 12 and put a 58 tooth big ring on. :D Let him try that for a while and see if it skips.

BUMP
from cyclingnews.com:
Stronger bike for Boonen
Tom Boonen is to ride the E3 Prijs with a sturdier frame, reports Sportwereld.be. The brute strength of the Quick.Step rider in the sprints has seen him have several mishaps with his gearing. Thus, Quick.Step's frame supplier Time is beefing things up for Tornado Tom, just in case.

[Climb01742]

i wonder if ale-jet had any similar issues with his dogma, which is supposed to be seriously stiff? i can't flex my time at all, but senor jerk said he could feel flex in his. wonder what kind of watts torque-y tom can generate?

[catulle]

Boonen needs a Big Leg Emma.

[e-RICHIE]

i wonder if ale-jet had any similar issues with his dogma, which is supposed to be seriously stiff? i can't flex my time at all, but senor jerk said he could feel flex in his. wonder what kind of watts torque-y tom can generate?


he had no issues.
i got this email this afternoon:
______________________________________
from ale-jet@yahoo.com
e-RICARDO.
i dig my dogma.
hey - have a nice day.
yer pal,
petacchi-issimo

ps say hi to roy e. munson
______________________________________

so - there ya' have it atmo.

[e-RICHIE]

Boonen needs a Big Leg Emma.



he'd better have a credit card and some cinelli rams imho

[Erik.Lazdins]

Pettachi has ditched the Dogma and is now on (some say a C-50 pics say a Cristallo)

Has this bike had its frame buttressed?

Do we really know what the pros are riding? It might look like a Dogma but is it really?

[e-RICHIE]

Pettachi has ditched the Dogma and is now on (some say a C-50 pics say a Cristallo)

Has this bike had its frame buttressed?

Do we really know what the pros are riding? It might look like a Dogma but is it really?



it's a dogma. the man himself emailed this evening:
______________________________________
from ale-jet@mindspring.com
ciao e-RICARDO
yeah - you have the eyes of a hawk;
my colnago is really a dogma with an
earl scheib diamond gloss paint job.
hey - take care, and say ciao to fixed.
he is the man.
yer pal,
petacchi-issimo
______________________________________

so - there ya' have it atmo.

[Erik.Lazdins]

You can spot a undone ergo qr on Catulle's C-50, you can spot that the Colnago is still the Dogma even though to my eyes it no longer looks like a Dogma. But then I didn't notice the qr.

[e-RICHIE]

You can spot a undone ergo qr on Catulle's C-50, you can spot that the Colnago is still the Dogma even though to my eyes it no longer looks like a Dogma. But then I didn't notice the qr.


during the day i get $3.99 a minute
to deal with these issues, but it's
almost purim and i feel like spread-
ing the hamentashen love.

[jerk]

petacchi is riding an extreme c. a cristallo is a tourist's bike and an extreme c is a bike for a pimp.

jerk

there is no issue at all with the drivetrain rigidity of the time. there is an issue with booned frucking with his barrell adjusters during the races according to a pal who races with boonen. the time has a soft front end...which isn't a bad thing but it has nothing to do with boonen's chain skipping on the 11tooth.

jerk

[Fixed]

bro then he is always goin to have trouble now and then ?
cheers

[e-RICHIE]

<snipped>...there is no issue at all with the drivetrain rigidity of the time. there is an issue with booned frucking with his barrell adjusters<cut>
jerk


i heard that too.
his neighbor, wim de weeuulllleen, emailed this gem:
_________________________________
wimdeweeuulllleen@mac.com writes...
yo e-REESHARd (the "D" is silent)
i know about bike mechanics. my
neighbor has a motor, but he is no
mechanic. i saw him effin' with the
barrel adjuster before the race. what
an ayehole. he's all thumbs imho.
yer pal -
wim de weeuulllleen-issimo

ps say hi to the jirk (walloon spelling)
_________________________________


so - there ya' have it atmo

[jerk]

i heard that too.
his neighbor, wim de weeuulllleen, emailed this gem:
_________________________________
wimdeweeuulllleen@mac.com writes...
yo e-REESHARd (the "D" is silent)
i know about bike mechanics. my
neighbor has a motor, but he is no
mechanic. i saw him effin' with the
barrel adjuster before the race. what
an ayehole. he's all thumbs imho.
yer pal -
wim de weeuulllleen-issimo

ps say hi to the jirk (walloon spelling)
_________________________________


so - there ya' have it atmo

e-richie letters....

it's the new third person; and the jerk doesn't mean munson's other brother.

[Climb01742]

no, no, no...the_real_problem is that tommy should just ditch that campy crap and go shimano. ;)

[catulle]

I wonder what Tolstoyevsky would say about the whereabouts of this thread. :no:

[Dr. Doofus]

he wouldn't say anything

well

he might start out with some pimp-azz parody of positivism and nihilism, all blinged out in some e-ritchie-style conceit that was, rhetorically, mo swift than swift fo the irony, which would make us all chuckle like feyuck.

then

it all goes south. he'd bust in with some Optina Pustyn ram-ridin bros and get all God on us and shi'ite. and his bars would be too high.

[Tom]

Nah - he'd say something like 'Suffering is the origin of all consciousness'.

[Dr. Doofus]

nah

he'd say

"beets. its what's for dinner."

[catulle]

Chuckling like feyuck!

[e-RICHIE]

I wonder what Tolstoyevsky would say about the whereabouts of this thread. :no:


turn up the volume atmo -

a mime is a terrible thing to waste yo

[catulle]

Uh...?