Q to Kirk and other frame builders ?

[Smiley]

I love your work , I love steel ( I am returning to a steel serotta soon ), I love the soul that is found in a steel frame . Can you guys tell me why your not working with SST lugs or drop outs or anything like that that dresses up the frame. I love what Sacha White does to dress up his frames and make them unique to his brand. Why don't you guys do the same . Does custom SST lugs cost you that much more and if so do you fear your clients won't pay up for these touches ? just wondering .

How about a really kool head tube badge ?

[CNote]

There is beauty in subtlety. A trained eye, and in some cases a not so trained eye, could recognize a Kirk, Sachs, Weigle, Goodrich, Mariposa, etc. without paint and decals. For example, with all the pictures of unpainted Kirks that are posted here, most regulars could pick out a Kirk without paint and decals, even without the Terraplane stays. Even my frame linked below drew obvious references to Kirk, due to the fact that my buddy who built it worked with him and was partially influenced by him. I think Vanilla's trademarks are much more extravagant than other builders, but I like them as well.

[Tailwinds]

Smiley, yes, a head tube badge would be awesome. I'd just about send my bike back and wait a little longer if they could stamp one on there.

That Capital is beautiful, CNote!!

[11.4]

Two basic issues here (if not more), one aesthetic and one engineering.

Aesthetics: Sacha White and David Kirk both make beautiful bikes, but they pursue different aesthetics. I wouldn't characterize one as subtle or not, because the implication might be that Sacha isn't subtle. He shows superb finesse and subtlety. He simply makes a bike with a proprietary aesthetic. Dave Kirk pursues a different aesthetic, plain and simple. And when you look close, Dave and, say, Richard Sachs, have very differentiated aesthetics -- their unpainted frames are easy to tell apart just on the fine points. A bike frame is a pretty basic thing, so small issues such as how head lugs are merged on smaller frames or how seat stays are attached to stay ends distinguish each builder.

Engineering: Stainless lugs or bottom brackets have to be brazed with silver (some framebuilder step in here quickly if I'm misstating any of this), which doesn't bond across gaps of any significant size. These tolerances are harder to obtain in an investment casting and harder to machine in stainless. Stainless also lacks some of the toughness that other steel alloys offer, so it is a bit more prone to cracking. Sacha engineers his components to address this and his aesthetic style accommodates stainless well, but if a builder's aesthetic vision calls for very short fine lugs he may not be as comfortable with stainless.

Also, many fine builders appreciate the look of chromed lugs, ends, or fork crowns, but stainless just doesn't quite look like a good chrome job -- once again, each material as its own aesthetic.

Personally I most appreciate the refinements that a Kellogg, Kirk, Sachs, Weigle, or Nagasawa brings to a frame. That's just personal -- you can't help but admire the refinement and the innovations one sees on each new Vanilla. I just prefer a different style. Even if Tom Kellogg or Richard Sachs could do a stainless head tube ornament, I don't think I'd really want it.

[catulle]

I like this thread. Back in the mid sixties, lugs mattered. I mean, a nice chromed lug was something special that we all admired (like on Cinelli frames). Chromed lugs, stays and forks were very desirable. Although, some racers would shun chrome because of weight considerations (they would also prefer small frames and short stems).

To this day, I can't avoid admiring shiny lugs, even though I also understand and feel very comfortable with the Spartan school (Kirk, Sachs, et al...). In the case of Vanilla bicycles, in my book his aesthetics is the essence of subtlety. He just combines colors and components in admirably tasteful results (Gestalt). Richard does too but his design/color scheme is decidedly racer/sport. Red is fast.

Regarding chrome and stainless, I feel somewhat like I do in regards to white gold and platinum in watches. White gold (chrome) looks brighter and shinnier, but platinum is the real thing and is more durable. As in matters of taste and aesthetics, I believe the key is balance; just the right mix and proportion of the elemets.

For all of the above, in a hand-made bicycle I would always prefer a chromed or stainless fork crown, and maybe some other lug such as a the bottom bracket, or the seat lug, or the right chain stay. And always the drop-outs. By the way, I think I read somewhere that there are or were Richard Sachs stainless lugs. This is something I must research.

Anyway, I believe a touch of shiny chrome or stainless seomewhere adds a touch to the frame, as well as tending a bridge to tradition. When the time comes, I will ask e-RICHIE if he won't mind using a shiny (chrome or SS) fork crown on my bike. Ideally, the fork crown with his logo on the shoulders (instead of the triangle).

[Smiley]

The reason I did not mention Chrome is its not enviromentally friendly to make chrome but don't tell that too the Harley boys . In my opinion nothing looks as nice as a Vanilla or Heavens sake a Peter Mooney built lugged bike .

[Sacha White]

When I started building, I couldn't shake the feeling that I was taking someone's lug design (henry james) and some ones tubing (true temper) and someone's dropouts and building a frame that without paint looked just like almost every other custom frame coming out of this country. This doesn't mean that I was not working the lugs to take the form that I wanted, but they could only be taken so far. Just to be clear we are not talking about fit and geometry here, because I know that these are details that can really separate one builder from another.

There are certain things that I do because I want the frame to be distinguishable as a Vanilla without the paint and decals. These are things like my rear drops and stainless dt script. Some see these as fancy touches, but to me there is something very industrial about them. they aren't stickers, or fancy colors or anything like that. They are bare metal and they are fused to the frame forever.

Things like stainless tt protectors are purely purpose driven. Same with stainless runners on top of my custom racks. Over time the stainless will garner less attention than the paint chips that would be there if the stainless wasn't.

When I use hard woods, they are functional as well.

I love non polished lugs...Probably more than polished. I agree with others that have talked about the subtlety of unpolished lugs, and that it takes an experienced eye to pick those details out and appreciate them. I don't think there is anything more beautiful then a finely done thin, crisp lug with a fine grain metallic paint laid over the top...aka Peter Weigle...can I get an amen? Also there is not a practical reason to go stainless on lugs like there is to go stainless on a drop out.

I think Kirk's Terraplane ss is a beautiful form and also a trademark style. The Terraplane ss is something that you can spot a mile away and know that it is Dave's work...which is awesome! I can't think of many non paint touches that certain builders do that no one else does...hmmm. Rivendel's lugs are definitely their own. Kvale has a unique treatment on the top of the st lug...Serotta's tdf lugs and their lugged bb shell (two of my favorites).

Good conversation starter, Smiley :beer:

-Sacha

[zank]

I don't think there is anything more beautiful then a finely done thin, crisp lug with a fine grain metallic paint laid over the top...aka Peter Weigle...can I get an amen?

Amen.

It goes without saying that all builders have their own style, and I think we all have a mutual respect for each other's different styles. I love seeing the naked frames that come into Hot Tubes for paint. Everything from lugs to TIG to fillet to epoxy, from steel to titanium to aluminum to carbon fiber, it all looks cool and wonderfully executed in capable hands. When I worked at Seven, I would always find myself just watching the welders lay down the bead. I really appreciate the skills of others.

For me, I build what I want to ride and look at most. I prefer clean, simple lines with flourishes that you have to hunt for. I prefer function over form. I prefer single color paint jobs with contrasting colors in the lug cut-outs. I prefer to dress the bikes in silver components. Luckily, there are folks out there with who like the same things I like.

I wish I could have gone to San Jose. I would have enjoyed seeing all of the different styles of bicycles. Each reflecting the style the builder prefers in a bike. I will be there next year for sure!

[Sacha White]

I would like to add that, for me, things like hand carved stainless lugs and stainless dropouts are things that I do in _addition_ to finer details like sharp dropout joints, clean lug lines, liquid smooth fillets etc. not things that I do _instead_ of the finer details.

I do have to admit though, that in a situation like the bike show in San Jose' most folks would get as far a a lugged one piece track bar and stem on the two track bikes, or the stainless script and stripes on my road frame and not see the finer details that are more of a standard.Finding the balance is definitely the most exciting challenge for me. The overall design and geometry fall into this catagory too.

The challenge is not how fancy something can be made, but how well the details can be combined to become just a beautifully made bicycle.

Sacha

[Climb01742]

in paris (and perhaps no where else) you see women of a certain age (north of 30 and south of, oh say, 65) who combine unique fashion elements (say a coco chanel jacket from the 60s and worn levi's and an hermes scarf) in ways that in the hands of others wouldn't work a lick, but on them, are the very essence of style. to me that is what sacha does. yes, the indivisual details on a vanilla are cool, but for me, it is how they work together that amazes and pleases so much. in the hands of someone else, yuck. in sacha's hands, poetry.

[catulle]

in paris (and perhaps no where else) you see women of a certain age (north of 30 and south of, oh say, 65) who combine unique fashion elements (say a coco chanel jacket from the 60s and worn levi's and an hermes scarf) in ways that in the hands of others wouldn't work a lick, but on them, are the very essence of style. to me that is what sacha does. yes, the indivisual details on a vanilla are cool, but for me, it is how they work together that amazes and pleases so much. in the hands of someone else, yuck. in sacha's hands, poetry.

Hmmm, now I know why I like Sacha´s work so much. A 45 y.o. Parisian in tight jeans, Ferragamo boots, Chanel jacket, and Hermes scarf is just my ticket. Not to mention a home and boat in Monaco. The problem is, I'd never get to ride my Vanilla.

[Sacha White]

in paris (and perhaps no where else) you see women of a certain age (north of 30 and south of, oh say, 65) who combine unique fashion elements (say a coco chanel jacket from the 60s and worn levi's and an hermes scarf) in ways that in the hands of others wouldn't work a lick, but on them, are the very essence of style. to me that is what sacha does. yes, the indivisual details on a vanilla are cool, but for me, it is how they work together that amazes and pleases so much. in the hands of someone else, yuck. in sacha's hands, poetry.

Dude, You just described my mom :beer:

-Sacha

[slowgoing]

in paris (and perhaps no where else) you see women of a certain age (north of 30 and south of, oh say, 65) who combine unique fashion elements (say a coco chanel jacket from the 60s and worn levi's and an hermes scarf) in ways that in the hands of others wouldn't work a lick, but on them, are the very essence of style.

Climb - Must be an acquired taste. Remind me to avoid Paris. I'll stick with the under 30 scandanavians.

[e-RICHIE]

<snipped> Can you guys tell me why your not working with SST lugs or drop outs or anything like that that dresses up the frame. <cut> How about a really kool head tube badge ?


this is interesting to me. why? because on the frame listserve, the
CR list, and on iBOB, following nahbs, there was a certain framebuilder's
lament-a-thon with regard to his miserable sales record dating back
over the past decade. the essence of it bordered on "...why don't folks
buy my frames (or types of frames), and since they don't, when i/we "go",
there'll be fewer choices, so there", or something to that extent.

my question to you, smiley, is would you actually buy the frame(s)
from the guys who you posted to if they offered more SS parts and
a headbadge, or is your question rhetorical? are these the two features
you seek to get you in the queue(s)?

[FierteTi52]

Dude, You just described my mom :beer:

-Sacha

Dude,
I met you dad while on a ride in Hamilton Ontario during the World Road Cycling Championships in 2003. I rode up next to him admiring his Vanilla bike and he replied " yeah my son Sasha built it". Very cool!
Jeff

[Samster]

"...why don't folks buy my frames (or types of frames), and since they don't, when i/we "go",there'll be fewer choices, so there."

hey, all due respect but sometimes less is more. that's the free market.

my question to you, smiley, is would you actually buy the frame(s) from the guys who you posted to if they offered more SS parts and a headbadge, or is your question rhetorical? are these the two features you seek to get you in the queue(s)?

if those are the things that are holding the person back, some framebuilder would probably do the deal in full and as spec'd for the for the right price.

[e-RICHIE]

samster.
please rebracket your texts...
the quotes that you snipped were not my words.
i was the messenger of a thread that appeared
on other forums. the words belong to another;
that's why they appear in quotes.

[catulle]

this is interesting to me. why? because on the frame listserve, the
CR list, and on iBOB, following nahbs, there was a certain framebuilder
lament-a-thon with regard to his miserable sales record dating back
over the past decade. the essence of it bordered on "...why don't folks
buy my frames (or types of frames), and since they don't, when i/we "go",
there'll be fewer choices, so there", or something to that extent.

my question to you, smiley, is would you actually buy the frame(s)
from the guys who you posted to if they offered more SS parts and
a headbadge, or is your question rhetorical? are these the two features
you seek to get you in the queue(s)?


Probably not. I don´t know who is the builder. But I´d certainly would love a red bicycle with a shiny fork crown. And the RS logo on the crown shoulders, and a deck of cards dripping from the inner sides of the fork. If you see one please let me know to come pick it up. imho

[e-RICHIE]

Probably not. I don´t know who is the builder. But I´d certainly would love a red bicycle with a shiny fork crown. And the RS logo on the crown shoulders, and a deck of cards dripping from the inner sides of the fork. If you see one please let me know to come pick it up. imho


see the archives here for a clue: http://search.bikelist.org/
as far as your post goes, i try to restrain myself on this forum
when the subjects veer toward the commercial, but i'll look the
other way tonight. you want 'shiney"? we offer the best chrome
plating in the business and have done so for the past 20+ years.
you see so little of it on my site because so few people order
it. but here's a taste: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/detail?.dir=cc37&.dnm=30cd.jpg&.src=ph

hopefully that'll slip past the mod's radar!!

[bigbill]

I like chrome. When I had my MX Leader repainted, I wanted both chainstays chromed instead of just the drive side. The chroming place inadvertantly (so they say) chromed the whole frame. The painter had to scuff the chrome to paint the frame. Its a Max frameset, I wasn't really worried about the added weight. Stainless is a little misleading, it will corrode and as the another poster said, it is not as tough as chromoly or magmoly. Lack of toughness can lead to cracking plus stainless is subject to chloride pitting from salt. I remember reading an article about investment cast versus stamped lugs. The builder who was interviewed pointed out that he preferred stamped lugs even though his customers wanted investment cast. It seems that sometimes the builder knows more about what we want they we do. I will purchase a custom frame in the next 18 months. I will tell the builder what I want to use it for and let him tell me what I want. And it will have a cool paintjob.

[vaxn8r]

.... but here's a taste: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/detail?.dir=cc37&.dnm=30cd.jpg&.src=ph

hopefully that'll slip past the mod's radar!!
Delicious!

[Climb01742]

Climb - Must be an acquired taste. Remind me to avoid Paris. I'll stick with the under 30 scandanavians.

no, no, slow. while the rest of the world chases fashion, there are women of a certain age in paris who simply _are_style. IMO, the french aren't a perfect people -- who is? -- but paris is a perfect city. and a big part of it is style...true timeless style, not transient fashion or cool. as always, YMMV.

[Climb01742]

chrome on a sachs? ok, who am i to judge...and this is purely a personal POV...it seems guilding the lily...can't quite say why...i guess it's 'cause sachs frames have a "racing" edge or vibe to them...they are traditional and classic (in the good senses of those terms) but then there is a practicality to a sachs frame...which is one reason, i think, that richie's cross frames are sorta icons of his "brand"...mud doesn't look out of place on a sachs...being worn and ridden aren't out of place on a sachs...sachs aren't show pieces, they're refined tools, race-bred...so somehow something like chrome seems sorta... "wrong" may be too strong a word but maybe "out of place" or "at cross purposes"... hey, this is just one person's take but a sachs is a classy tool with a purpose... too many flourishes would, perhaps, alter that gestalt?

[catulle]

see the archives here for a clue: http://search.bikelist.org/
as far as your post goes, i try to restrain myself on this forum
when the subjects veer toward the commercial, but i'll look the
other way tonight. you want 'shiney"? we offer the best chrome
plating in the business and have done so for the past 20+ years.
you see so little of it on my site because so few people order
it. but here's a taste: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/detail?.dir=cc37&.dnm=30cd.jpg&.src=ph

hopefully that'll slip past the mod's radar!!

Gulp...!!!! That´s just what I want. I knew that was a richieable goal. I didn´t expect the honey to be poured over my eyes, though. Thank you. Now I´ll place the picture of the shiny jewel next to Saint Gabriel and by the votive candles. Please note, though, that when e-RICHIE writes "...we offer the best...", he is incurring in a tautologous statement.

[catulle]

when the saints go marching in....

[Tailwinds]

chrome on a sachs?

I LIKE IT!!!!!!

[dirtdigger88]

I just found the perfect thing to go with the color scheme Im planning-

WOW!!!!

Jason

[Johny]

http://www.campyonly.com/images/joebell/sachsdetail.jpg

http://www.campyonly.com/joebell/price_list.html

[catulle]

http://www.campyonly.com/images/joebell/sachsdetail.jpg

http://www.campyonly.com/joebell/price_list.html


This is hurtful and anti-American. What about instant gratification? Why I can't have one NOW?! That orange is sweet like the ones in Florida. Thanx for the pic.

[Smiley]

I am picturing Tour De France lugs in a chrome finish on a CSI .... I better stop dreaming now :)

[e-RICHIE]

I am picturing Tour De France lugs in a chrome finish on a CSI .... I better stop dreaming now :)


well it still begs the question, is plating, SS, and
a headbadge all/what it takes for you to buy a frame?
i am asking based on how you phrased the o.p.

[David Kirk]

Hey,

I’ve been struggling a bit with this. It’s a topic of great interest to me and to a certain extent the question was asked of me directly. Yet I feel this is not the right place to speak of my own work. It just feels wrong to me.

I will say that I feel that wonderful bikes can be built with or without stainless lugs, headbadges or whatever. I think that a builder picks, for a wide variety of reasons, a certain blend of materials that achieve a certain look, feel, and ride quality. Asking a builder to move dramatically away from his “blend” is asking him to make something other than his brand.

Were I in the market to buy a frame I wouldn’t call Mr. Sachs and ask him for a TIG bike, or a stainless bike. If I were to call him it would be to order a Sachs. I wouldn’t call Calfee and ask for an OCLV. You get the idea.

In a slight change of direction……….this thread deals with the aesthetic of frames. The look of bikes has always been very important to me. I spend an inordinate amount of time making things look just so. This was deeply instilled in me by Mr. Bedford at Serotta. If it didn’t look right it didn’t go out the door. That said, the thing I spend the real time on was making sure the bikes ride, fit, handle and feel just so. Frankly I think it’s not that difficult to make a pretty bike. Assuming one has the skill and spends plenty of time and exercises lots of patience and he’ll end up with a pretty bike. Making it do the other stuff is the hard part.

Dave

[Smiley]

Nah , I just bought a new frame , the bike will have buffed S&S couplers and touches of Silver where I can get them in the components like a Silver King Headset and silver bottle cages and soon a Nitto Silver seat post, silver wheels with BLACK tires .

Its OK to dream about my ultimate bike , you know the one that is just like that vintage car you take out on sunny days only :)
The Uniscasi will be my new workhorse and the refinement of my fit evolution over the years .
The only thing I can liken SST or chrome on a bike to is maybe TEAK or Wood on a sailboat's exterior .

[catulle]

well it still begs the question, is plating, SS, and
a headbadge all/what it takes for you to buy a frame?
i am asking based on how you phrased the o.p.

Of course not..!! In the mechanical watch market there are different product categories like jewelry, fashion, manufacture, independent maker, etc. Most brands and models pretty much carry the same movement and the main difference between one and the other is in the way they look.

If one is more knowledgeable about watches or if one wants a watch of horological value with emphasis in the complexity or refinement of the movement, then you look somewhere else. However, even in this category one may prefer a rose gold case to a platinum case or whatever.

From what I understand of this thread, or what I want to understand, is that someone might want to add a little chrome or stainless to any bicycle. In this respect, I feel there are two aspects to ordering a frame. One is the frame itself, right before it leaves to JB (for instance). The other aspect is the little list that accompanies the frame to JB. In the case of the first part, I wouldn't dare suggesting to the maker of the frame what to do. Regarding the list to go to JB, I would certainly like to ask if using red instead of blue might be fine, or if the fork crown could be chromed.

In other words, when ordering a D. Kirk bike, for instance, above all I have decided that I want a bicycle with an inherent value superior to the factory product (the pretty watch with the ETA movement), or with specifications different from the product of other craftsmen (Weigle, let's say). But then I might ask nicely if the chain-stay could be chromed. However, I would not buy a Vanilla over a Kirk simply because of the head badge. As I would not buy a Journe over a Parmigiani simply because the shape of the crown.

Phew... What a mess. I apologize profusely for the incoherent and long rant.

[e-RICHIE]

In other words, when ordering a <cut> bike, for instance, above all I have decided that I want a bicycle <cut> with specifications different from the product of other craftsmen<cut>...


therein lies the rub imho.
there's a certain breed of cat that sees less than
other breeds of cats. perhaps it's sensibility issue.
dunno. all i do know is the o.p. was couched a certain
way and the implication i (and i assume pal dave k.)
got was that the potential client sought these stated
features (headbadge, SS, etc.) as a prerequisite for
completeing an order form. but it's already been
established that the aesthetic of the product is also
the product, and coveting one maker's wares and
asking about having it built as such, yet made to
look like another's, seems counterintuitive to us.
fwiw, back in my CR days, there were threads about
why builders use certain parts and don't use certain
others. one particular thread was heavily posted to
and it involved ornate-ish lugs. many cats only cared
or seemed to care that their new frame has a bunch of
fleurs de lis and/or snake-y thingys coming from any
direction. almost no attention was given to the design
and construction aspects; all these guys needed to get
wet and sticky was alotta lug windows and assymetry
and sculpted doo-dads*. there's nothing wrong with
that, 'ceptin there's so much more to all this and to
stop/start with "LUGS" simply seemed illogical. so -
i posted this gem (it now resides on my blog), and
my point to them was that the lug was not the frame.
read on: http://richardsachs.blogspot.com/2006/01/this-from-my-beautiful-wife-deb.html

i'm, posting this here because i sense that folks also
seem overly intrigued by the features originally listed
in the first post , and i'm here to suggest it all works
together, and it's not prudent imho atmo to use every
feature from every frame possibly ever made and come
up with a custom frame based on a laundry list of
accumulated fantasies, be they aesthetics, design,
material, etcetera.


*doo-dads is not a technical term...

[11.4]

I find it fascinating how erudite our top framebuilders can be. One doesn't build the best frames without thinking through these issues, but the interplay of engineering, performance, and aesthetic issues makes the challenge greater for the builder who seeks to elevate all three issues. And that's how the best frames in the market are differentiated from each other. I work a lot with major visual and musical artists, and have to say that they by and large can't express their aesthetic as well as Richard, David, and Sacha do here.

[Grant McLean]

snip...
i'm, posting this here because i sense that folks also
seem overly intrigued by the features originally listed
in the first post , and i'm here to suggest it all works
together, and it's not prudent imho atmo to use every
feature from every frame possibly ever made and come
up with a custom frame based on a laundry list of
accumulated fantasies, be they aesthetics, design,
material, etcetera.


Richie-issimo,

Here's one possibility. Yes, it may seem like "we" the client
are overly in love with the visual features, but in the end, it's
generally what the client gets input on. I'm not going to tell you
to at what temperature to set your torches, and what grit
sandpaper to use. I think it's a given that a trusted framebuilder
-designer is going to get all the important stuff right: it's going
to fit, it's going to ride great, it's going to be well made, then
what does the client have left to focus on? The colour!!!

-gee

[e-RICHIE]

Richie-issimo,

Here's one possibility. Yes, it may seem like "we" the client
are overly in love with the visual features, but in the end, it's
generally what the client gets input on. I'm not going to tell you
to at what temperature to set your torches, and what grit
sandpaper to use. I think it's a given that a trusted framebuilder
-designer is going to get all the important stuff right: it's going
to fit, it's going to ride great, it's going to be well made, then
what does the client have left to focus on? The colour!!!

-gee


the o.p. did not recognize color in his text, he mentioned
SS and headbadges. i interpret this - and even your text -
to infer that the client could seek to have the brand font
produced in caslon open face rather than futura if that
particular letterform floats his boat. stuff like that simply
is not done.

[catulle]

I don´t want no pickle, I just want to ride on my RS cycle. I don´t want to die, I just want to ride on my RS bike. Isthmus B. Guthrie. :banana:

Repeat with DK cycle / DK bike.

[e-RICHIE]

I don´t want no pickle, I just want to ride on my RS cycle. I don´t want to die, I just want to ride on my RS bike. Isthmus Guthrie. :banana:


go to end of group w bench with the father rapists iirc.

[Grant McLean]

the o.p. did not recognize color in his text, he mentioned
SS and headbadges. i interpret this - and even your text -
to infer that the client could seek to have the brand font
produced in caslon open face rather than futura if that
particular letterform floats his boat. stuff like that simply
is not done.

I hear what you are saying, do you hear me?
There are clients who want to control some part
of the process, they won't write a blank cheque.
They are hoping that "involving" themselves in
the visual details they are going to end up with
what they want.

As a dude who spends way too much time thinking
about bikes, i know about this. I'd suggest they
take a chill pill, and let the master do their thing.
As long as you're on the same page, it works out great,
and then there is always wabi-sabi for when it doesn't.

-g

[David Kirk]

I confess...........I put my bike at the bottom of that pile of garbage.

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

I hear what you are saying, do you hear me?
There are clients who want to control some part
of the process, they won't write a blank cheque.
They are hoping that "involving" themselves in
the visual details they are going to end up with
what they want.

As a dude who spends way too much time thinking
about bikes, i know about this. I'd suggest they
take a chill pill, and let the master do their thing.
As long as you're on the same page, it works out great,
and then there is always wabi-sabi for when it doesn't.

-g


wabi-sabi is a gift.
people that don't want it deserve
it more than those that do.

[Grant McLean]

wabi-sabi is a gift.
people that don't want it deserve
it more than those that do.

Is that from Star Trek III: Search for Spock?

-g

[e-RICHIE]

Is that from Star Trek III: Search for Spock?

-g

no rhetorical questions.

[Grant McLean]

no rhetorical questions.

yes master.
i go sweep the temple.

-g

[aminadab]

Is that from Star Trek III: Search for Spock?

-g

YO be careful I saw a Ferengi around here.

[stackie]

E-Richie,

I took the time to see who the lamenting builder was. I agree wholeheartedly with his viewpoint. A custom bike isn't all that expensive, and it is one of the few things that we as consumers can realistically afford to buy as a custom product. Most of us are never going to afford a "custom" car, probably not a "custom" house, insert next example here. So, I buy custom bikes. My experience with Sacha was a one of a kind experience worth far more than I paid (don't try to balance bill me though, Sacha).

However, I would note that said lamenting builder was the only obnoxious person that I met at the show. He was aloof and spend an inordinate amount of time complaining about someone who had damaged his titanium toe clip creation. I asked about a titanium rack on his show bike and was told that he only wanted to do that as a part of the entire package. Sorry, not in the market for whole package right now. If you're really starving, I'd think you'd be happy to whip one up. Every other builder was happy to spend time chatting with fellow enthusiasists and will likely sell more bikes and accoutrements because of it. Ahearne was ready and willing to sell the flask cages without a bike.

I'd say it's time to take a break because your love of bicycles can no longer conquer your bitterness, Mr. Aloof. I can say that because I have issues with personal bitterness myself. But, I'm working on them.

[weisan]

I work a lot with major visual and musical artists, and have to say that they by and large can't express their aesthetic as well as Richard, David, and Sacha do here.
This is a true statement.

[Samster]

E-Richie,
I took the time to see who the lamenting builder was. I agree wholeheartedly with his viewpoint.


do you agree with the part in which he analogously suggests that american cyclists should buy frames from american framebuilders to support their craft? (this question is _not_ rhetorical.)

[e-RICHIE]

do you agree with the part in which he analogously suggests that american cyclists should buy frames from american framebuilders to support their craft? (this question is _not_ rhetorical.)


i missed where he suggests that,
but it's not my bag. i have a hard
time with jingoism biwfd.

[Samster]

i missed where he suggests that,
but it's not my bag. i have a hard
time with jingoism biwfd.

perhaps i read too much into it. maybe the follow-on threads did as well. but that was my interpretation of the quotation below.

One of my most vivid memories of my first trip to France in the late 1980's was that it was a country that almost everyone drove French cars. Not because they were the best, they weren't (they have vastly improved since), but because they were built by French people, and they liked to support their own industry.

it was just an innocent question. biwfd.

[e-RICHIE]

perhaps i read too much into it. maybe the follow-on threads did as well. but that was my interpretation of the quotation below.



it was just an innocent question. biwfd.


re that snipped quote:
dunno. do we know enough about auto sales in
france in the 80s to determine what the market
had to offer? they probably drank more french
wine too. nycwg.

[Samster]

re that snipped quote:
dunno. do we know enough about auto sales in
france in the 80s to determine what the market
had to offer? they probably drank more french
wine too. nycwg.

point taken on wine. re: cars, beyond peugeot, citroen and bugatti, there probably wasn't much to buy... but i claim no expertise.

[catulle]

point taken on wine. re: cars, beyond peugeot, citroen and bugatti, there probably wasn't much to buy... but i claim no expertise.

Trade barriers in pre-EU Europe was the reason why the French drove mostly French cars back then. For instance, SEAT was the Spanish FIAT company which had to build and market its own breed of FIAT in order to be sold in Spain. Once the barriers came tumbling down, dear blood was spilled such as Bultaco's.

[e-RICHIE]

Trade barriers in pre-EU Europe was the reason why the French drove mostly French cars back then. For instance, SEAT was the Spanish FIAT company which had to build and market its own breed of FIAT in order to be sold in Spain. Once the barriers came tumbling down, dear blood was spilled such as Bultaco's.




so that blows holes in the rationale in the
quote (above) from the other forums iirc?

[SPOKE]

i'm a pretty lucky bike nut. i have the pleasure to own custom steel frames from 3 of the top builders in the world. i can tell you that i have asked one of them about building a bike with SS lugs and was politely told "no". i have asked another builder about building with SS lugs and was politely told to contact Sacha. i appreciate the desires of these builders to build "their" bikes. this desire to stick to their particular "style" works for me because as long as these guys build frames/forks using parts they are most familiar with then i'm certain that i'll get the best quality from them.

hmmmm......that chrome fork crown on that RS sure is sweet!!! i'm glad to know that it's an option for the next one.

since i have experienced packing a bike with the S&S couplers into that small case i've decided scratch that option from my DK. maybe some chrome lugs instead??????

[Tailwinds]

maybe some chrome lugs instead??????

Nope... at least not when my bike was built. That's ok, I love the way it turned out!!

[stackie]

Samster et al.

Jingoism aside, I agree with supporting the local guys as much as possible. Local, of course, is not a set distance but varies depending on what you're looking for. If you can find what you need in your own backyard, why not support that person. Think about it, when he needs your services, what's he going to pay you with? The money that you paid him, or the state aid that he's on because you decided that you would get a cheap piece of chinese junk to save a few hundred bucks.

So, who's going to build my next bike? Well, let's see, Sacha's somewhat close, but I've got two. Anyway, next bike will likely fill different need than Sacha's. So, I'm looking at Paul Sadoff of Rock Lobster. Less than an hour from me and a real peach of a guy.

I'm not some buy American zealot, but more and more, as I live my life I make the effort to support American products assuming the quality/value relationship can justify it. I buy diapers made in the USA of nonbleached materials as well as biodegradable systems. Sure, they cost twice the price of Pampers. But, I'm supporting US economy in more ways than just corporate stockholders and saving the environment to boot. Going to buy a Honda Minivan, though. American workers, at least. It's just that the American vehicles don't convince me on quality/value. But, it would be difficult to convince me that most of us can't afford the additional sheckels that it costs to buy an American frame. I don't think that you can say that your chinese frame will be better or even near the quality of the frame produced by your American craftsman. Sheesh, Paul only charges slightly more than a grand for a nice TIG steel frame, and he's got the rep.

Besides, these guys all seem to support the local scene. Sacha sponsors a team, Richie sponsors a team, Paul works with the local Los Gatos development system. Check out the track bike on fixed gear gallery. The parents of the kids gave him the S3 tubeset and parts to build himself a track bike out of appreciation for his help. When was the last time your major chinese manufacturer supported your local cycling scene?

Come on guys, this is your chance to do the right thing and spend your money the right way.

Jon

[Samster]

so that blows holes in the rationale in the
quote (above) from the other forums iirc?

ok. *** is iirc.

[e-RICHIE]

ok. *** is iirc.
"if i recall correctly."
now - *** is ***?

[zank]

rofl

[Samster]

Jingoism aside, I agree with supporting the local guys as much as possible.
me too.


If you can find what you need in your own backyard, why not support that person. I'm not some buy American zealot, but more and more, as I live my life I make the effort to support American products assuming the quality/value relationship can justify it.
i can relate to that as well.


Sheesh, Paul only charges slightly more than a grand for a nice TIG steel frame, and he's got the rep.
who's Paul?


Come on guys, this is your chance to do the right thing and spend your money the right way.
you're talking about the ethics of spending money on bike stuff?

i just wanna say: hey that's mp bro.

but i still don't know what 'bro' stands for. so ***, ijsun [i'll just shut up now].

[Waldo]

I thought you detest lug outlining -- hides the shorelines, etc.?

[e-RICHIE]

I thought you detest lug outlining -- hides the shorelines, etc.?



detest is a strong word.

[Waldo]

Ok, multiple choice:

a. dislike
b. avoid
c. counsel against
d. steer client away from
e. none of the above
f. your term(s) here

[e-RICHIE]

Ok, multiple choice:

a. dislike
b. avoid
c. counsel against
d. steer client away from
e. none of the above
f. your term(s) here

it's not my bag, but it worked oh that
frame. all three colors were custom matched
and all the inks on the decals were custom
matched to the paint. a tres spendy JB invoice.

[stackie]

There are two ways to interpret that. First off, I guess we should all just ride one bike tig welded by the local guy. The rest of our money should go to fight poverty and attain world peace. However, as those who know me would attest, I ain't that nice a guy. So, I will spend money on three extravagances, bikes, coffee, and art. Not to say that I'm not charitable, but I don't give it all away.

Paul? From earlier in the same post, Paul Sadoff of Rock Lobster.

Jon