OT: Jeter [Archive] - The Paceline Forum

rounder

09-25-2014, 08:49 PM

Watching the Orioles play the Yankees (I am an Orioles fan)...4-2 Yankees right now. Derek got a double in the first inning and drove in a run, and a fielders choice in the seventh inning drove in another run. His last game. Derek Jeter has been a stand up guy for his whole career. He is number 5 or 6 in hits lifetime. Dates beautiful girls. No bad press. The Yankees will probably retire his number. How can you not like that.

Derek Jeter Just drove in the winning run in the 9th inning...walk off single. Yankees win 6-5.

He's a star.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/dan-henninger-where-have-you-gone-derek-jeter-1411599569

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/sports/baseball/feeling-the-impact-of-derek-jeters-numbers-especially-the-one-on-his-back.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSumSmallMediaHigh&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

r_mutt

09-25-2014, 09:26 PM

what's not to like about jeter?

kmla320

09-25-2014, 09:51 PM

What an ending !!!! Congrats to Derek

Cat3roadracer

09-25-2014, 10:00 PM

Unreal. What a perfect finish.

FlashUNC

09-25-2014, 10:19 PM

what's not to like about jeter?

Worst defensive shortstop ever? Actively hindered the team for years when a defensive superior showed up and he refused to move?

He's Big City Craig Biggio.

GeorgeTSquirrel

09-25-2014, 11:09 PM

Never a big fan, but have to give him kudos for ending it with style.

oldpotatoe

09-26-2014, 06:44 AM

oldpotatoe

09-26-2014, 06:46 AM

Worst defensive shortstop ever? Actively hindered the team for years when a defensive superior showed up and he refused to move?

He's Big City Craig Biggio.

five Gold Glove Awards...yep, 'worse defensive shortstop ever'...you must be from boston,ya know the clowns with beards and red noses.

shovelhd

09-26-2014, 07:07 AM

five Gold Glove Awards...yep, 'worse defensive shortstop ever'...you must be from boston,ya know the clowns with beards and red noses.

Not worst ever, but his best years were long ago. I give him props for knowing when to quit. Did anyone see the pitch he hit out? Was he served a meatball?

cfox

09-26-2014, 07:22 AM

five Gold Glove Awards...yep, 'worse defensive shortstop ever'...you must be from boston,ya know the clowns with beards and red noses.

I'm a Sox fan, and I've always liked Jeter. So have almost every other Sox fan I know. He's been the face of baseball for years. Anyone who denies that is a fool. He doesn't have the clutch bone. He has twelve. The notion that the Yankees would have been better with that fraud clown, big moment loser A-Roid at short, is laughable.

Rada

09-26-2014, 07:24 AM

five Gold Glove Awards...yep, 'worse defensive shortstop ever'...you must be from boston,ya know the clowns with beards and red noses.

Statistically he was below average. Even a friend of mine who is a Yankee fan, hence not a very good friend, quipped to me last year that Jeter has the range of an apartment building. Personally not a fan, but the guy will wind up in Copperstown.

93legendti

09-26-2014, 07:38 AM

I am a Tigers fan...Jeter is a first ballot hall of famer - check his offensive stats as well...3463 hits, lifetime .309 hitter.

saab2000

09-26-2014, 07:44 AM

I am a Tigers fan...Jeter is a first ballot hall of famer - check his offensive stats as well...3463 hits, lifetime .309 hitter.

This. I don't know enough about baseball to judge his defensive capabilities but there's no doubt he's a legend of the game. Those hit stats and his lifetime average and his general durability and his ability to perform when the stakes are highest make him a first ballot HOFer.

Richard

09-26-2014, 07:51 AM

sitzmark

09-26-2014, 07:59 AM

Statistically he was below average. Even a friend of mine who is a Yankee fan, hence not a very good friend, quipped to me last year that Jeter has the range of an apartment building. Personally not a fan, but the guy will wind up in Copperstown.

Damn ... there are PEDs that could have fixed that. ;)

oldpotatoe

09-26-2014, 08:01 AM

He addressed the "talent" issue in his press appearance last night after the game. To paraphrase him, he didn't have the most talent on the field or at his position, but he always put out maximum effort. Can't deny that and while not a Yankees fan, I always admire the lesser talents that rise above their limitations and shine. That he undeniably did.

As to the game winning pitch, it was belt high, down the middle. Intentional meatball or pitcher's mistake -- who knows, but a meatball nonetheless. Still, a great way to end it and it cost the Orioles nothing.

Yup....long career at one position on one team. Can't argue with the Yankees' 'palmares'. If he was that bad, he would have been a DH or the last years of his career. He was the captain, he will be missed...NOW I want to see how bad Tulo from the Rockies wants to replace him..doubt it, cuz he's pretty fragile but...

FlashUNC

09-26-2014, 08:06 AM

five Gold Glove Awards...yep, 'worse defensive shortstop ever'...you must be from boston,ya know the clowns with beards and red noses.

I actually grew up a Yankees fan. Watched Derek play in the minors with the Hornets in Greensboro. Still got a glove signed by him and Bernie Williams. He was, by just about any measure, baseball for me.

But the facts are the facts. His defense, by nearly every advanced stat, has cost his team more runs than anyone else in Major League History. As Bill James famously pointed out, the only way that kind of situation could happen is if a player had a superlative ability in other areas of his game. But he plays the most important defensive position on the field and is, by every objective measure, terrible at it. And has been for years.

If it wasn't for his superlative ability to hit opposite field singles, he'd have been gone long ago. I don't disagree he's not a HOF'er. Just like Craig Biggio will get in next year.

Good stick, horrible glove and coasting for the last half-decade more on reputation than actual performance. Even his bat has abandoned him the last 5 years. He's been an incredible boat anchor at the shortstop position for the team for years now and refusing to switch when a defensively superior A-Rod showed up is the peak of hubris. Mantle, Williams and other greats hung it up before stumbling around in their twilight like Jeter.

http://grantland.com/features/the-tragedy-derek-jeter-defense/
Jeter gets outs on an above-average percentage of the balls he gets to, which helps obscure the fact that he gets to so few. It�s telling that errors are recorded only when a fielder has mishandled the ball, even though not even getting close to it might be the greater crime. We�re more likely to remember a fielder�s sins of commission than we are his sins of omission.

fuzzalow

09-26-2014, 08:06 AM

As to the game winning pitch, it was belt high, down the middle. Intentional meatball or pitcher's mistake -- who knows, but a meatball nonetheless. Still, a great way to end it and it cost the Orioles nothing.

If this were akin to the culture & practices of pro cycling, it is not unthinkable to have a little bonus offered to the pitcher to go easy on Jeter for that at-bat. This is NYC, and any dream can come true for a price. I'd say the sweetener was $50k.

Don't follow baseball anymore, thank you Bud Selig. Don't like the Yankees. Don't believe Jeter is anywhere near close to a legend. But any 1-hit-in-three lifetime hitter ain't nuthin' to sneer at and he did it in the pressure cooker of Yankee Stadium which has destroyed many a player.

oldpotatoe

09-26-2014, 08:14 AM

I actually grew up a Yankees fan. Watched Derek play in the minors with the Hornets in Greensboro. Still got a glove signed by him and Bernie Williams. He was, by just about any measure, baseball for me.

But the facts are the facts. His defense, by nearly every advanced stat, has cost his team more runs than anyone else in Major League History. As Bill James famously pointed out, the only way that kind of situation could happen is if a player had a superlative ability in other areas of his game. But he plays the most important defensive position on the field and is, by every objective measure, terrible at it. And has been for years.

If it wasn't for his superlative ability to hit opposite field singles, he'd have been gone long ago. I don't disagree he's not a HOF'er. Just like Craig Biggio will get in next year.

Good stick, horrible glove and coasting for the last half-decade more on reputation than actual performance. Even his bat has abandoned him the last 5 years. He's been an incredible boat anchor at the shortstop position for the team for years now and refusing to switch when a defensively superior A-Rod showed up is the peak of hubris. Mantle, Williams and other greats hung it up before stumbling around in their twilight like Jeter.

http://grantland.com/features/the-tragedy-derek-jeter-defense/
Jeter gets outs on an above-average percentage of the balls he gets to, which helps obscure the fact that he gets to so few. It’s telling that errors are recorded only when a fielder has mishandled the ball, even though not even getting close to it might be the greater crime. We’re more likely to remember a fielder’s sins of commission than we are his sins of omission.

When Eddy decided to retire, you would have probably written something about how average and 'worse' he was at something..I guess I just don't get it..a OT post about his last game, how he is so loved by the Yankee fans but ..why not, 'worse shortstop ever', type thing was, I donno, what's the point?..to show your extensive knowledge of raw baseball stats?

Take any athlete, in any sport, and yep, come up with something to slam him with on his last day in his home park, stadium, court.....just don't get the 'ire' in your first post..I think you are a closet redsocks knob...

Baseball, I watch and like it on an emotional level..not just raw numbers and some sports writer's blog or whatever. I like Todd Helton also..but I'm sure you could throw lots of stones at him too.

FlashUNC

09-26-2014, 08:24 AM

When Eddy decided to retire, you would have probably written something about how average and 'worse' he was at something..I guess I just don't get it..a OT post about his last game, how he is so loved by the Yankee fans but ..why not, 'worse shortstop ever', type thing was, I donno, what's the point?..to show your extensive knowledge of raw baseball stats?

Take any athlete, in any sport, and yep, come up with something to slam him with on his last day in his home park, stadium, court.....just don't get the 'ire' in your first post..I think you are a closet redsocks knob...

Because the hagiography for Jeter is completely overblown. Was he an excellent player for a long period of time? Sure. Hall of Famer? Definitely. Retire his number? Totally.

But folks are acting like the greatest baseball player in the history of the universe is hanging it up. When the reality is he's modern-day Luke Appling rather than Honus Wagner.

Truly great, transcendent players and athletes are appointment viewing, regardless of the sport. Those are the guys you stop whatever you're doing and go watch when they're in town, because you may just see something you never saw before. Eddy was certainly one of those. Michael Jordan was that in basketball.

Jeter was never appointment viewing. You knew what you were going to get from him. 200-ish hits with seemingly 99% of them to right field, horrible defense and playing 150+ games a year. I think its telling all these highlight reels of his greatest hits and plays basically ends in 2001. He wasn't even the most important player on his team. That was Rivera, a kind of pitcher we'll never see again.

As is the case a lot with Jeter, perception doesn't match the reality from where I sit.

oldpotatoe

09-26-2014, 08:33 AM

Because the hagiography for Jeter is completely overblown. Was he an excellent player for a long period of time? Sure. Hall of Famer? Definitely. Retire his number? Totally.

But folks are acting like the greatest baseball player in the history of the universe is hanging it up. When the reality is he's modern-day Luke Appling rather than Honus Wagner.

Truly great, transcendent players and athletes are appointment viewing, regardless of the sport. Those are the guys you stop whatever you're doing and go watch when they're in town, because you may just see something you never saw before. Eddy was certainly one of those. Michael Jordan was that in basketball.

Jeter was never appointment viewing. You knew what you were going to get from him. 200-ish hits with seemingly 99% of them to right field, horrible defense and playing 150+ games a year. I think its telling all these highlight reels of his greatest hits and plays basically ends in 2001. He wasn't even the most important player on his team. That was Rivera, a kind of pitcher we'll never see again.

As is the case a lot with Jeter, perception doesn't match the reality from where I sit.

What is reality when it comes to a baseball player? Are you uncomfortable with the adulation shown him? Oh well....

A great player during my years of watching baseball, who is retiring. Nothing more for me.

Not a lot of good things about baseball in the last 20 years or so, lots of bad..so when genuinely nice guy and leader of his one team, quits, well, why not celebrate that, why piss in his wheaties?

BTW-I was 4 years old when Honus Wagner died.

fuzzalow

09-26-2014, 08:37 AM

But folks are acting like the greatest baseball player in the history of the universe is hanging it up. When the reality is he's modern-day Luke Appling rather than Honus Wagner.

Truly great, transcendent players and athletes are appointment viewing, regardless of the sport. Those are the guys you stop whatever you're doing and go watch when they're in town, because you may just see something you never saw before. Eddy was certainly one of those. Michael Jordan was that in basketball.

Jeter was never appointment viewing. You knew what you were going to get from him. 200-ish hits with seemingly 99% of them to right field, horrible defense and playing 150+ games a year. I think its telling all these highlight reels of his greatest hits and plays basically ends in 2001. He wasn't even the most important player on his team. That was Rivera, a kind of pitcher we'll never see again.

Agree. Some of this overblown adulation is also a knock-on effect of monetizing a year long love-fest that the average fan gets swep up in.

Mariano is/was a lengendary player. Jeter was a damage control idol elevated to Yankee legend by hype because A-Rod blewup his own assumption as pinnacle legend of all baseball, occupied by a Yankee of course, by the fraud of his own PEDs.

93legendti

09-26-2014, 08:40 AM

I don't know anyone who is saying he is the greatest baseball player of all time.

Like Yaz, Kaline, Ripken and others of their class (Yzerman in hockey)who played 20 yrs or so with one team, a player like Jeter is loved by the fans and builds up a love based upon his service with one team and excellent play.

How many great players in any sport spend 20 years with one team and develop HoF stats? Kareem? No. Peyton Manning? No. Farve? No. Gretzky? No. Brett Hull? No. Pudge? No. Reggie Jackson? No. Frank Robinson? No. Clemens? No.

The Yankees have gotten rid of plenty of stars...they were happy.

Ripken wasn't hitting all that great in his last years and his range diminished. Still a first ballot hall of famer.

Hall of Fame credentials are + .300 career batting average and 3000 hits. How many people with those stats aren't in the Hall?
2003 he hit .324. 2006 he hit .343. 2009 he hit .334, 2012 he hit .316... Glad he "hung on" to cash a paycheck...lol.

6th most hits in MLB history... Even more than Honus Wagner. ;)

Again, I rooted against him and the Yankees.

oldpotatoe

09-26-2014, 08:45 AM

Agree. Some of this overblown adulation is also a knock-on effect of monetizing a year long love-fest that the average fan gets swep up in.

Mariano is/was a lengendary player. Jeter was a damage control idol elevated to Yankee legend by hype because A-Rod blewup his own assumption as pinnacle legend of all baseball, occupied by a Yankee of course, by the fraud of his own PEDs.

yikes, I'm out of this one..Rivera was great, as a relief pitcher. He pitched an average of 67 innings per year, about 1/3 of a starters rate. Even as a starter, playing 1 game in 5, but...

I'm out. AND for right below..it isn't just about stats and numbers. I'd say he will be remembered as 'one of the greats'..not a 'legend', but a great player? W/o doubt.

rugbysecondrow

09-26-2014, 08:46 AM

Worst defensive shortstop ever? Actively hindered the team for years when a defensive superior showed up and he refused to move?

He's Big City Craig Biggio.

Jeter is a very good player, but he also benefited from being a Yankee. Props to him for a successful career, I just find the pomp from the farewell tour a little much. He is a very good player, by no means one of the greats.

Paul

EDS

09-26-2014, 11:05 AM

Because the hagiography for Jeter is completely overblown. Was he an excellent player for a long period of time? Sure. Hall of Famer? Definitely. Retire his number? Totally.

But folks are acting like the greatest baseball player in the history of the universe is hanging it up. When the reality is he's modern-day Luke Appling rather than Honus Wagner.

Truly great, transcendent players and athletes are appointment viewing, regardless of the sport. Those are the guys you stop whatever you're doing and go watch when they're in town, because you may just see something you never saw before. Eddy was certainly one of those. Michael Jordan was that in basketball.

Jeter was never appointment viewing. You knew what you were going to get from him. 200-ish hits with seemingly 99% of them to right field, horrible defense and playing 150+ games a year. I think its telling all these highlight reels of his greatest hits and plays basically ends in 2001. He wasn't even the most important player on his team. That was Rivera, a kind of pitcher we'll never see again.

As is the case a lot with Jeter, perception doesn't match the reality from where I sit.

The perception with Jeter has more to do with how he did things both on and off the field than his specific accomplishments as a hitter and fielder. Obviously, he needed to achieve a certain degree of success on the field individually to merit the conversation at all.

Rivera and Jeter were both great players and, from where I sit, appear to be great dudes too. There are legions of professional athletes in all sports that are difficult to appreciate and to celebrate their achievements, but Rivera and Jeter represent what is good about sports, and that is what they will be remembered for.

As a Yankee fan I know it may be a while before similar players come along.

GeorgeTSquirrel

09-26-2014, 11:50 AM

Jeter was never appointment viewing. You knew what you were going to get from him. 200-ish hits with seemingly 99% of them to right field, horrible defense and playing 150+ games a year. I think its telling all these highlight reels of his greatest hits and plays basically ends in 2001. He wasn't even the most important player on his team. That was Rivera, a kind of pitcher we'll never see again.

Horrible defense based on what, exactly? I don't follow the Yankees and I rarely pay attention to the AL... but judging by the stats, there is nothing horrible about his fielding ability. A few years over his career where he didn't make the top twenty, but also years where he was number one or elsewhere in the top five... hardly what I'd call "horrible."

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/ss/order/true

Sure, he's not a defensive superstar... but he was solid.

verticaldoug

09-26-2014, 12:49 PM

Jeter is a very good player, but he also benefited from being a Yankee. Props to him for a successful career, I just find the pomp from the farewell tour a little much. He is a very good player, by no means one of the greats.

Paul

A buddhist monk said ' you know when a religon is dying by how fast people are made saints.... '

victoryfactory

09-26-2014, 12:51 PM

Picking on Jeter for not being the best in every category is missing the point.
In all of baseball history there have been only FIVE PLAYERS with more
career hits. He answered the bell for twenty years in the highest pressure
sports environment.
He NEVER made excuses. He was almost universally respected by his
peers. His focus was absolute.
He made the big plays in the biggest moments.
An all time great. A winner. A unique person.
I'm pretty sure there will be a few jackasses trying to make a political point
by not voting for him in five years, and of course the Yankee haters
won't like all the hoopla, But we won't see anyone quite like Jeter again.

Watching his former teammates standing there while he took his victory
lap was priceless because every one of them went through the same thing

VF

bikingshearer

09-26-2014, 01:11 PM

Jeter is not the greatest player ever. He is not even the greatest shortstop ever - my vote still goes to Honus Wagner for that one. He is, however, the best shortstop of his era. By that I mean he is the shortstop from the last 20 years you want on your team. It is more than hitting, and it is more than defense. It's his presence, on and off the field, and his knack for coming through consistently when the stakes are highest, all while playing for the team that, for good and for ill, gets the most press and pressure in American sports.

What Jeter is to a team is summed up by that play against the A's when he took the not-good throw from right field near the first base line and back-hand flipped to home in time to get Jeremy Giambi out at the plate. (And I will never understand why Jeremy was not sliding, but that is a different rant.:mad:) No other shortstop playing then or now would have made that play. Others may have been in position to snag the throw to keep it from getting by the catcher, but no one else would have had the combination of physical ability and game awareness to get the out.

That is the kind of play that separates Jeter from the merely ordinary. Some people in any sport have an ability to sense when the Big Moment is at hand and to perform at a consistently high level in that crucible. Jeter did that, and it is what makes debates about his range or his recent batting average more or less irrelevant. It is also what makes him a much better pick for the guy you build your team around than A-Rod.

Having said that, the traveling love-fest that has followed Jeter around baseball this year has been by turns silly, maudlin, tacky and just plain weird. It is American public celebratory behavior at its worst. It's almost as bad as when, during the reopening of the Statute of Liberty celebration some years back, in addition to great fireworks and the very cool Tall Ships in NY harbor, the festivities included a show at the Meadowlands that featured (and I swear I am not making this up) 200 Elvis impersonators dancing on stages on the field. :eek: If that was the Eddy Merckx of bad taste, and I submit it was, than the Traveling Jeter Show has been the Fausto Coppi or Bernard Hinault.

Dale Alan

09-26-2014, 04:38 PM

Revised...BIG Jeter fan. I will stay out of this one.

firerescuefin

09-26-2014, 04:42 PM

lonoeightysix

09-26-2014, 07:20 PM

keith olbermann's take:

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/sports/Derek-Jeter-Keith-Olbermann-Rant-Yankees-Video-276940821.html

have to agree as much as the hero's goodbye doesn't quite match the stats.

overall, however jeter is what baseball needed, after the PEDs and strikes/lockouts. have a hard time seeing a high level player with the same team his entire career ever again.

cfox

09-26-2014, 08:36 PM

Keith Olbermann is a smug, serially unemployed boob grasping for ratings on whatever umpteenth stupid show he's now hosting. I'm sure he will outstay his welcome soon at his current gig. He's managed to convince people he's "smart" by being a wise-ass who uses big words. I hope Jeter's response, if he even had one, was "who is Keith Olbermann?".

Louis

09-26-2014, 08:40 PM

Gonna be tough for him now, if he's going to settle down.

http://www.baconsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/derek-jeter-girlfriends.jpg

r_mutt

09-26-2014, 08:54 PM

jeter has the whole package- not the best fielder, but probably a B+ in his prime. not the best hitter- but how can you argue with a 20 year batting average of 309? doesn't steal a lot of bases, but an avg of 21/season over 20 years is solid. 6th all time in hits? that's pretty amazing. the way he conducts himself on the field is his greatest strength. how many players have his poise? not many.

as for comparing jordan to jeter - no comparison. jordan is arguably one of the best players ever. jeter? a great player- hall of famer but not in consideration for the best player ever title. jeter is by all accounts a great guy. jordan? not well liked by anyone. bitter and spiteful. no comparison.

lonoeightysix

09-26-2014, 09:21 PM

Gonna be tough for him now, if he's going to settle down.

http://www.baconsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/derek-jeter-girlfriends.jpg

The real Murderer's Row right there. Can't argue those stats.

Louis

09-26-2014, 09:57 PM

The real Murderer's Row right there. Can't argue those stats.

;)

wc1934

09-26-2014, 10:09 PM

Unfortunately he did not play tonite against the Sox. This is what he said:

"I couldn't have played today," Jeter said during a pregame news conference, still looking as drained as he did the night before. "Last night was as special as it gets, playing your last game at home at Yankee Stadium, the way the fans were, the atmosphere. Everything was pretty much perfect in terms of the situation that we were in."
Jeter said he planned to DH on Saturday and Sunday but only out of respect for the Yankees' rivalry with the Red Sox.
"If it was anywhere else, I don't even know if I'd play," Jeter said. "I have the utmost respect for the Red Sox organization and their fans here, and I would love to come and play here one last time."

If he does play tomorrow, he will get a SO - but that does not mean we like him- lol

cfox

09-27-2014, 05:49 AM

Gonna be tough for him now, if he's going to settle down.

http://www.baconsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/derek-jeter-girlfriends.jpg

His on-babe percentage is unmatched in MLB history

parris

09-27-2014, 12:27 PM

^ ahh its good to be the king...

EDS

09-27-2014, 12:55 PM

^ ahh its good to be the king...

If nothing else, Jeter has absolutely lived out the dreams of many 15 year old boys.

Louis

09-27-2014, 02:50 PM

His on-babe percentage is unmatched in MLB history

Part of the soundtrack of his life:

Stop right there! I gotta know right now
Before we go any further do you love me?
Will you love me forever? Do you need me?
Will you never leave me?

Will you make me so happy for the rest of my life?
Will you take me away and will you make me your wife?
Do you love me? Will you love me forever?
Do you need me? Will you never leave me?

Will you make me happy for the rest of my life?
Will you take me away and will you make me your wife?
I gotta know right now before we go any further
Do you love me? Will you love me forever?