Etched Ti?

[pale scotsman]

I've been eyeballing the new etched ti that Merlin has and though initially intrigued, I guess I'm kind of wondering.

Wouldn't the etching weaken the frame? I could see etching dropouts, and I'm sure minds far sharper than mine have pondered said question, but? It looks pretty cool to me and I'd be interested in what a more knowledgeable chap thinks.

[jwb96]

I won't add any more knowledge to the subject, but yeah - wouldn't ya think that would just be stressors ready to start cracking? And collecting dirt too. I saw one at the Boston Bike Show and I was less than impressed by the looks, and even more troubled by the idea. I'm sure it has to be safe, otherwise they wouldn't be made, but it just doesn't seem right.

[jpw]

A long term stress riser, both for the metal and for the human owner.

It is form but it isn't function.

I can see the antecedence, in lugs and fluting, but it's not appropriate here.

Another 'added value' design idea from those Chattanooga bean counters.

[davids]

Where's the :hurl: icon when I need it?

This strikes me as a complete triumph of style (questionable style at that!) over substance. Conspicuous consumption for those with more cents than sense.

I'm sure I could come up with more cliches if I tried, but mostly this just makes me sad. Only a few years ago, Merlin was arguably one of the best frame makers in the country. The folks from Chattanooga are quickly turning it into a pathetic joke.

[Jeff N.]

Agreed. Throw in that ridiculous integrated headset, and the joke is even MORE pathetic. Jeez, what're they thinking? Jeff N.

[jpw]

They are thinking sales, turnover and profit. Anything that makes the money move is good in their eyes. The fact that the product is bicycles is almost an incidental inconvenience. It's just business.

When a company grows to a certain size a dynamic kicks in and all is lost in terms of product 'honesty'. In this regard small is beautiful. Serotta, you have been warned.

[dnovo]

We're getting a bit too anal-itic here guys, let's just put it simply: art is art but fluff is fluff. There is a distinction between add-on decoration and real art. A Nagasawa frame is elegant in its simplicity. The lugwork on my Sachs or my Curt Goodrich Rivendell or my Dave Kirk is art. Why? Because of its form and result show fine detailing, hand-cut care, taste and craftsmanship. The 'etched' Merlins are simply machine cut crap, dress-up dross. A snare for those who think elaborate designs cut by a computer-programed robot is 'art' because it appears complex.

Art is art and Crap is crap. Chomp has spoken. Dave N.

[jpw]

Disagreement time. Sorry, in advance.

The way something is produced, the method used, cannot be the definition of whether that something is or is not 'art'. The intention of the author and the reaction of the observer is perhaps more central.

With Merlin we know the intention is $ and they attempt to achieve their intention by manipulating the observer in to thinking it is art when it is not. It's too contrived to work, hopefully.

There is art and there is the business of art. The two are a little bit different.

[bags27]

While it's not my aesthetic, it obviously is for a lot of people. About a month ago, in the inevitable "which bike would you buy if money's no object" thread on Bicycling.com, the overwhelming response for a ti bike was the Merlin Cielo. Now, we can quibble about who has superior taste, but we're all hopelessly bourgeois (see the Frankfort School thread), so this is purely relative. I've stared and stared at the Ottrott and, frankly, for me it's a complete aesthetic turn-off--not that I would kick it out of my garage if someone gave me one! (Truth in advertising: I have a Spectrum Superlight on order.)

[CIII_bill]

bags27

What is a Spectrum Superlight? Ti, steel,?

Bill

[jeffg]

Originally posted by jpw
The way something is produced, the method used, cannot be the definition of whether that something is or is not 'art'. The intention of the author and the reaction of the observer is perhaps more central.

With Merlin we know the intention is $ and they attempt to achieve their intention by manipulating the observer in to thinking it is art when it is not. It's too contrived to work, hopefully.

There is art and there is the business of art. The two are a little bit different.

Uh, oh. With the focus on author's intent, I feel the Frankfurt school thread coming back, or even a post-structuralist one starting.

Ceci n'est pas un velo!

[bags27]

CIII_Bill: it's ti


JeffG: bien sur, c'est un velo, parce que: we're going around in circles!!

[Kevan]

I've grown fond of the art form. Still, we dress to impress; I'll cancel my order.

[csb]

frame building is not art.
frame building is craft, HIGH craft at times.

this does not set-up a hierarchy _ rather compartments,
some do not need these, others do _ it allows them to
sleep at night.

overlap of the two 'fields' does occur, usually not for the better.



ps-
i find the merlin etching ugly and simple-minded.

[jpw]

The Merlin etching is conceited, contrived and a con.

[Larry]

I hope the ride is great, because it is one U - G - L - Y frame.

I would not be seen on this frame!
Back to the drawing board!!

[vaxn8r]

I'll disagree.

I like the etching and I like Merlins.

But...I wouldn't buy one. Not because of the etching or because it's really a Litespeed. I just wouldn't buy another ti bike. Though if somebody had a 56 cm Legend they wanted to give away I wouldn't say no.

It seems a lot negativity goes out to any bike out there which isn't a one-off custom job. C-Dales, Treks, Merlins, Litespeeds, even Sevens. Guess what, those bikes aren't a threat to Serotta. They all have their niche and they're all good bikes.

Off the soap box...I just get tired of ripping on anything which doesn't seem to be exclusive enough.

[Larry]

Vaxn8r,

The etched Merlin that I saw was even sloppy at the carbon/ti joints.
There was even noticeably splotched glue in spots.

Actually, I really like the Lemond carbon/ti frames. They seem to have excellent attention to detailed workmanship.

Anyone out there riding a Lemond carbon/ti???

Larry:beer: :banana: :beer:

[vaxn8r]

Well, there is no excuse for shoddy workmanship, especially on a Merlin. If that's true, how the mighty have fallen. What a shame.

I've ridden an Extralight several times. Nice bike.

[Michael Katz]

The level of emotional fervor that is directed at "put downs" of "bikes not Serotta" is not only the height of immaturity but suggests a latent insecurity among some posters that perhaps is borne out of some sort of "post decissional dissonance" arising out of their decission buy a Serotta at prices significantly greater than other custom bikes which are certainly of equal quality. I say this not out of a desire to denigrate Serotta - I bought a 2003 CSI for reasons that made sense to me not withstanding a price which was out of whack with equally fine steel customs from other sources- but because the diatribes of the "SEROTTA TRUE BELIEVERS" sully the otherwise great value of this board as a gathering place to share information and the joy of riding. It is particularly offensive when the comments made reflect misinformed or uninformed crap without a scintilla of demonstrable fact to support the comments.

With respect to this go round concerning Merlins, you may not like the aethstetics of the etchings and that's ok. That's subjective and a matter of personal taste. To then claim without a demonstrated foundation in fact that the etchings create stress risers (thereby suggesting latent defects) or to impugn Merlin's business goals and ethics is unwarranted and irresponsible. It is also incorrect to portray Merlin and Lightspeed as the same company. They are not. They may be owned by the same parent company but are separate and distinct operations with separate R & D, sources of materials, tubing, design goals, production facilities, employees and target markets. Litespeed does what it does for its target market and Merlin for its. And I suspect that Merlin is doing something very right if Tom Kellogg is willing to stake his reputation on the Ti frames built by Merlin's custom shop to his specs for Spectrum Cycles.

Just my bored 2 cents as I sit here recovering from arthroscopic knee surgery today, waiting for the 6-7 inches of snow predicted for tonight, glad that it's happenning at a time when I can't ride anyway.

[bags27]

As to the possibility of shoddy workmanship, I think Merlin was having some trouble early on with the Cielo and that's been corrected. Every manufacturer has problems. Mercedes Benz has recalls, after all.

I think Michael and Vaxn8er's larger point is, however, one worth pondering. Non-custom bikes get treated very poorly here, yet most people readily agree that custom is generally the way to go primarily where there is a specific issue of fit--the overwhelming number of riders don't need a custom bike. There seems to be a snobbery about this. I mean, there have been complaints about quality control (mostly paint) at two of Italy's most famous bike shops--Colonago and Pegoretti. And speaking of over-the-top style, both those two, esp. the Colonago, can be pretty garish. But no one here knocks them, maybe 'cause they're Italian. But over-the-top is part of the fun! After all, those so-called ugly jerseys we saw in a recent thread...well, some people think they're the cat's meow. And who's to decide? A lot of people have won a lot of races and/or ride sublimely on Merlins...and Litespeeds...and Treks...and Cannondales, etc.

Michael: get better quickly...that's the important thing!

[Michael Katz]

Bags27, thanks for the good wishes. It's going to be tough to restrain myself and not overdo it as I rehab, although my wife is threatening to tie me up (but that could be a good thing ;) ).

Merlin was having some problems with early production Cielo's but per Tom Kellogg, that's been corrected. He is very confident of the current Cielo quality.

Michael

[larryp2]

well said Michael Katz

[jeffg]

Originally posted by bags27

I think Michael and Vaxn8er's larger point is, however, one worth pondering. Non-custom bikes get treated very poorly here, yet most people readily agree that custom is generally the way to go primarily where there is a specific issue of fit--the overwhelming number of riders don't need a custom bike. There seems to be a snobbery about this. I mean, there have been complaints about quality control (mostly paint) at two of Italy's most famous bike shops--Colonago and Pegoretti. And speaking of over-the-top style, both those two, esp. the Colonago, can be pretty garish. But no one here knocks them, maybe 'cause they're Italian. But over-the-top is part of the fun! After all, those so-called ugly jerseys we saw in a recent thread...well, some people think they're the cat's meow. And who's to decide? A lot of people have won a lot of races and/or ride sublimely on Merlins...and Litespeeds...and Treks...and Cannondales, etc.




Bags --

I think your point is indeed worth pondering. I have a slightly different take on custom frames. Custom is not just about getting the right contact points. Tube selection, geometry, etc. also play a major role.

The ride of my Legend is indeed sublime. On the other hand, a Lemond Ti frame is likely produced with folks around my weight (about 150) in mind, or at least suits me better than someone at 190+. What I did not like about the LeMond is the fact the BB drop has now moved to 6.7 (!) for the new frames. I much prefer the 8 on the Serotta and also got a slight upslope so that I could use 5-10 mm of spacers. Also, the Legend I tested felt much more like my old steel bike. That is just a subjective preference, but critical in my buying decision. Trust me, I agonized over whether to spend the extra money on the Serotta (price was/is definitely an object).

So, just because a LeMond "fit" does not mean the only difference between it and a Legend is exclusivity. Of course, the difference between the two is much more important for riders at the limits the height/weight parameters stock frames are meant to accomodate. Even for those who might "fit" on a stock frame, custom can be the way to go.

Finally, we started off this thread talking about Merlin here, whose prices are not all that different from Serotta/Seven/Spectrum, etc. The etching comes across to many (myself included) as a gimmick. If you recall initial comments on serotta's ST stays and the CDA, many here also questioned whether marketing had supplanted function in Saratoga. So, the folks here are certainly not uncritical even if they love their bikes and the company who makes them.

cheers,

Jeff

[dave thompson]

To me, the etching looks tacky and beneath what the Cielo is supposed to be.

[Michael Katz]

Jeff makes some good points that have beeen kicked around in other threads. There is a meaningful distinction between custom fitting a stock bike by swapping bars, stem, seat post, adjusting seat etc, having a custom sized frame built and a full custom frame. The latter, as Jeff notes, entails customizing geometry and tube selection to get desired handling and ride characteristics.

My first "upscale" bike was an Indy Fab steel Crown Jewel, stock frame, but fitted using a Size Cycle with hand selected components. Great bike, well within a comfortable and balanced "zone of fit". My next bikes were full custom designed to give me desired handling and ride characteristics. Noticably different from my IF and , to me, worth the expense. Each bike has been a learning experience for, enabling me to better distinguish what I like, what I would like different, and how to better match different types of riding I do.

Whether it be Seven, Serotta, Spectrum, Kirk, or even IF or Merlin (yes, they do make full custom, even though for my money I would go to Tom Kellogg if considering a Merlin custom), they all make deleriously great bikes. Each of us has an oppotunity to decide where our needs and desires are best met, for the greatest value, from an amazingly diverse group from among the best designers and builders in the world. While each of us may have a "favorite", as I certainly do (another topic for another time), there should be tolerance and respect for other rider's choices.

[bags27]

I, too, agree with JeffG's point: you're right of course. It's not just about the general fit, but clearly about specific ride characteristics and precisely what gets moved in order to make that fit. And, yes, there are criticisms of Serotta on this site. But one does get a sense--naturally, since it is after all a Serotta site, that they are generally less harsh (okay, so Serotta owners would say that's because they're better bikes!)

And Michael, I grew up (and still visit family) near you: Norristown (went to Plymough-Whitemarsh HS ages ago).

I'm editing this because I notice that I just hit the century mark in "contributions" to the site. Hmmm...time to get off the bike and take some Accelerade or something.

[Michael Katz]

Bags27, I've lived in Abington most of my life and went to Abington H.S (also "ages ago"). If you are down this way during the seaon and would like to ride, drop me a line. I usually ride with a local club on Tues and Thurs evenings and on Sun mornings. Nice group of people, varied speeds and distances, riding in Bucks and Montgomery counties during the week and often into the hills of New Jersey north of New Hope on Sundays. Saturdays I usually ride a relaxed 30 miler from my house.
Michael

[jpw]

Anyway....

The Cielo IS ugly. Ugly head tube (also a technical mistake, which is more important), ugly engraving, and very ugly dropouts. I do so hate that style of dropouts. Just an all round ugly dwarfy bike.

If they are going free i'll have a dozen. Still ugly though.

[Michael Katz]

jpw, you have stated that the head tube on the Cielo is a technical mistake and that the etchings on the frame create stress risers.Could you please explain what you mean by the former comment and what facts and sources you are relying upon for both conclusions.

[dnovo]

Michael, this penchant you seem to have for requiring facts and evidence to support the opinions expressed on this group is disturbing, to say the least. Gracious, do you expect any of us to actually have facts to support our deeply-held and emphatically stated beliefs? Next thing you know, you will be demanding photos and data to support the existance of those WMDs that we all KNOW were scattered throughout Iraq! What are you, a Liberal? Come on, man, don't demand facts, just let art flow over you. Wasn't it Shaw in THE DEVIL'S DISCIPLE who observed that while history will do as it always will, and tell lies, that his work was one of pure fiction, and that therefore you could believe every word of it? Sit back. Relax. Have fun. Blow hot air like most of the rest of us (except Sandy, he is the bedrock of all knowledge, trust EVERYTHING he says -- and not a damn thing I say, including all of this.) Dave N.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . IF it does not weaken the frame and IF the overall workmanship and ride is worthy of the price.

What I find even more interesting, though, is that Merlin clearly seems to be trying to cash in on the people’s desire to have some uniquely custom. That’s why I thought long and hard about my paint job on the Queen Bee and was so particular about making sure it looked just so--I want to ride something that is uniquely mine.

But then having that “unique” treatment available as a stock order pretty much defeats the purpose. If the engraving IS computer generated, then why not just write more scripts for the ‘puter and have various theme engraving? Or REAL custom engraving? Being able to have bumble bees engraved on the frame--or any other personal motif for that matter--would be really neat and then I would really, truly lust after one.

It’s the same logic as the old joke about women getting into fights at the prom dance because they showed up in the same dress. No discerning cyclist wants to show up with EXACTLY the same bike as somebody else.

BBDave

[Kevin]

BBDave,

You think that the paint scheme on the Queen Bee is unique? I hate to break it to you, but the USPS team will be using that scheme on their Treks at the Tour this year. By September there will be hundreds if not thousands of frames with your paint scheme.

Kevin :beer: :beer: :beer:

[jpw]

If the idea is to have uniqueness then etching/engraving may not be the technically sensible thing to do.

What about unique custom polish/bead blast motifs?

Poish the frame, reverse mask a section of tube with the design and then bead blast it in place. No risers, no anodising, no decals et.c.

Or, head tube badges with a difference. See Speedgoat.com and search under 'Moots'. There's a nice custom badge on a frame. Not made by Moots, but they were happy to go along with the idea.

[Michael Katz]

DaveN - I have no issue with opinions expressed as such. Diversity of thought is a wonderful thing. I do take issue when opinions are expressed as facts, which are unsubstantiated, and the purpose appears to be the denigration of the ethics, integrity or reputation of the target. In my "comic book" view of life (Shaw's too heady for me), it's just plain wrong. Does that make me a Liberal-I hope not, I've been trying to avoid that label for years! As I sit here at home watching snow come down 2 days before Spring, recovering from knee surgery so I can't ride indoors or out, with little to do other than read ERISA Opinion letters to try to figure out if a Multi-Employer Health and Welfare Fund gets converted to a Multiple Employer Welfare Association by permitting the participation of non-bargaining unit employees (even more heady than Shaw), I've got to find some way to stave off boredom and exorcise my viscera.

BBDave - You make some interesting points. Kind of the same thing as when Harley started producing factory choppers. Looks custom but is really someone elses vision. I wonder whether you can order stock frames without the engraving or order custom frames with engraving of your own choice?

[jpw]

Sorry, here's the link.

www.jen-green.com/Bike%20Jewelry.htm


Does anyone know what it means? Perhaps dbrk has an idea?

[dnovo]

Michael: Good God man, reading ERISA opinions? You must really enjoy living on the edge! Don't you know that can cause brain rot unless viewed through special, babble-filter protected lenses? I hope you practice Safe Sex when reading Federal Agency reports. Some years ago I spent six months one day trying to make sense of a Corp of Engineers report in prep for a battle with the EPA and the Corp for a client with rapairian property. Left my prootective glasses in the office and after the first three pages (out of 3,678,895,888 pages that comprised the summary section of the Corp's report) I sustained the frontal lobe damage that has dogged me to this day.

Be very careful. Dave N.

[bags27]

Thanks for the invitation to ride with you, Michael. I'd love to take you up on it. I've got to pick up my Spectrum soon, and perhaps I can arrange it so that it's maiden voyage is with you!

[Michael Katz]

Dave N - Too late! I fear I am permanently cross eyed and cognitively short circuited. I thought the contact lenses I wear would protect me from the synaptic dysfunction caused by incoherent government opinion letter blather, but alas, all they are good for is protection from UV rays. Oh well, at least I won't get cataracts. Maybe engaging in Safe Sex while reading the Opinion Letters will have a future preventative and hopefully curative effect.
Michael

[Michael Katz]

bags27 - When will your bike be done? Let me know, it would be a pleasure to join you on the maiden voyage.
Michael

[Legend_1970]

What really defines what a custom frame is??
Is it if it is available in custom sizes? Merlin is.
Is it if it is hand welded? Merlin is.

If Serotta, or Sachs, or Vanilla, etc. decided to etch something into their tubes, admit it, you'd (and me probably) all be drooling like a pack of mad dogs to get your hands on one, claiming it was the most beautiful thing you've ever seen. If it cost 8k for the frame alone, you'd be that much more excited (and I would be sad, cause it would be too much.....)
I personally think -certain- steel frames are way over priced, but some here say that getting a steel frame that has nothing special is actually 'a work of art' because it cost so much. If you walked into all your lbs's and saw those same frames lining the wall at a third the price, you wouldn't think so much of them then.

Having a Serotta is kind of neat in my mind because it is USA made, and not as many people have them as certain other brands, which is mainly a result of the high price.
But I bet a Merlin, Trek, or Litespeed would ride just as well as long as it fit properly.

[jpw]

Pricing is a function of production volumes. The more you make the cheaper they get. The notion of quality is possibly the inverse of this. That's Serotta, and some others.

[jdesalvo]

Merlin has gone down the tubes ever since Litespeed bought them. This thing is hideous!

[bostondrunk]

OK, hold da boat!!!
What is wrong with engraving vs gluing on a badge?!?!?!
Merlin welds are just as good or better than my Serotta. I may be drunk, unable to vettyp, and generally redy to start a brawl in 20 minuts when I grt to the palace, but i know htat nagasawachi is o0ne cool dude with an afro!

[bostondrunk]

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