28's for gravel?

[jmoore]

Will that work? I'm sure it depends on the surface, but generally is that enough tire?

[MattTuck]

What kind of distance are we talking?

I routinely ride dirt and gravel on 28s, but not usually for more than 5 continuous miles. I'm ~200 pounds, riding 28 Conti gatorskins at about 90-95 psi.

If I were doing longer distances on unpaved surfaces, I think I'd either like a bigger tire or a more forgiving 28 -- the conti gatorskin is not known for its ride quality.

Hope that helps.

[bluemax]

Generally I think it's enough for most of the roads I've ridden. On rougher stuff you will be faster on bigger tires.

[jmoore]

I was thinking Paselas. Inbound frame is limited to 28s. I'm open to tire suggestions. This will be NTx riding. Prob not too serious.

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[Schmed]

Crushed or regular gravel? A bit sketchy on regular gravel. Perfect for crushed gravel.

Crushed:

http://www.intrans.iastate.edu/research/documents/research-photos/Gravel-Road.jpg

Regular:

http://leaderprotects.com/images/GravelRoad_1.jpg

[b021c]

I rely on my 28s for most reasonable gravel roads situations. I run Vittoria Pave clinchers with latex tubes and have had good success on training rides and 2 races.

[b021c]

Crushed or regular gravel? A bit sketchy on regular gravel. Perfect for crushed gravel.



Great reference pics - kudos - I wholeheartedly agree.

[jmoore]

Based on the ranch roads ive driven, crushed most likely.

Any gumwall clinchers good in crushed gravel? I'm still liking Paselas

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[tele]

on crushed or dirt I have ridden Ruffy Tuffys just fine but would like to try the Conti 4 seasons.

[p nut]

I've used Pasela 32's on crushed gravel with good results. I think 28's would just be fine if it's like the first picture above. Just be careful on those washboards and high-speed sweeping turns.

[sandyrs]

Based on the ranch roads ive driven, crushed most likely.

Any gumwall clinchers good in crushed gravel? I'm still liking Paselas

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Maybe Clement Strada LGG's in gum/28. I have a pair in 25 but haven't mounted them yet.

[kramnnim]

What do y'all use for the regular gravel?

[JonSnow]

Unless you're going to a 32+ tire, I don't really think anything from 25-30 actually makes much difference in traction or steer-ability. Higher volume and lower pressure will let you run lower pressure for a bit more comfort.

Riding big gravel seems to be more about your line and your speed than equipment to me. Don't tell the bike industry though.

[p nut]

What do y'all use for the regular gravel?

Some gravel roads are rougher than others, but I've had good luck with my RocknRoads (43mm). There are times, however, that I wished for 2.2" MTB tires.

[Cornfed]

Crushed or regular gravel? A bit sketchy on regular gravel. Perfect for crushed gravel.

Crushed:

Regular:


Great pics. Very useful. Now picture a right-angle turn at the bottom of those hills -- property lines, river bottoms, etc. That's how I choose my gravel tires.

[Charles M]

Sure... I have 28 gatorskins and like em. I like 32 better but clearing them may be another story on lots of bikes.

[jmoore]

All right. 28s it is. Worst that can happen is that are not optimal and I have to try something else. For the amount of "gravel" riding I plan on, it should be good. And the bike will be more than sufficient for road riding as well.

Charles M, this will be the bike I leave in AZ for the spring BBQ Sufferfest. But it will get some break in this fall and winter before it goes out.

[Tandem Rider]

28 gatorskins are my go to for probably 80% of my gravel riding. Probably 2K or so per year with them on gravel. You need more tire only when it gets sloppy, think winter snowmelt. They last, don't flat easily, ride better than an Armadillo.

[donevwil]

I (6' 5" 230#) ran 28 Gatorskins on a tour two years ago and one day had about 10 miles of heavy, deep, loose gravel. Although I would have preferred 32s the 28s performed well with no damage at all. A 28 Gatorskin is a much larger tire than, say, a 28 GP 4 -season. IMO gravel riding has more to do with technique any way.

[jmoore]

I (6' 5" 230#) ran 28 Gatorskins on a tour two years ago and one day had about 10 miles of heavy, deep, loose gravel. Although I would have preferred 32s the 28s performed well with no damage at all. A 28 Gatorskin is a much larger tire than, say, a 28 GP 4 -season. IMO gravel riding has more to do with technique any way.

You know what frame I'm referring to in this thread, correct? :hello:

[donevwil]

You know what frame I'm referring to in this thread, correct? :hello:

Since I have a plethora of 28s and 32s why don't I do a fit check for you ? What rim width would you be using ?

[Netdewt]

My Pasela 32c are fantastic for the nice gravel. On the bumpy, rocky, loose, etc. stuff I have had a hard time.

[jmoore]

Since I have a plethora of 28s and 32s why don't I do a fit check for you ? What rim width would you be using ?

Probably a set of Ultegra/Open Pro's, so 19mm?

[David Kirk]

No one tire is optimal for all conditions. That said I have really come to love the 28mm Conti 4 Seasons. I ride some dirt/gravel on almost every ride and they work very well and when I pull onto the pavement i don't wish i had something else.

dave

[Schmed]

Great pics. Very useful. Now picture a right-angle turn at the bottom of those hills -- property lines, river bottoms, etc. That's how I choose my gravel tires.

And that's why I went with 40mm tires for gravel!

[Charles M]

All right. 28s it is. Worst that can happen is that are not optimal and I have to try something else. For the amount of "gravel" riding I plan on, it should be good. And the bike will be more than sufficient for road riding as well.

Charles M, this will be the bike I leave in AZ for the spring BBQ Sufferfest. But it will get some break in this fall and winter before it goes out.


Good stuff...

I guess it's mostly about clearance issues but 28 fit lots of bikes and you can run em soft enough to soak up loads of chatter...

[witcombusa]

I've never wished for a narrower tire on gravel but have craved even wider. For me a 35mm Pasela is my first choice, 32mm if I must for clearance issues.
They roll well enough on the road to connect the good riding too.

[oldpotatoe]

Will that work? I'm sure it depends on the surface, but generally is that enough tire?

I ride on 25c Vittoria Paves on dirt roads all the time. No issue.

[Steve in SLO]

I weigh about 190 lbs and rode Pasela T-serv 28s this vacation at 60-75 psi.
Here is my pictoral.
Sorry about the multiple posts, but I cannot figure out how to upload multiple photos from my iPad into a single post.
So: 28's: no problem

[Steve in SLO]

28s: no problem

[Steve in SLO]

28s: again, no problem

[Steve in SLO]

For this section, I wished I had 32 or even 35c tires. I walked some of this.

[AustinHorse]

vittoria pave 27s took me home last year at gravel worlds- some big stuff there in nebraska, had to pay a lot of attention. assuming loose rocks on the road surface it's doable but would only be worth it in a race situation or evenly mixed smooth road/chunky gravel.

[palincss]

I ride on 25c Vittoria Paves on dirt roads all the time. No issue.

Have you tried 35mm or wider?

[oldpotatoe]

Have you tried 35mm or wider?

No..on the dirt roads I ride, my Moots with 25 'seem' to do just fine. Not scary, slippery, not slow or anything. I can climb and descend w/o issue. Not sure what a 35mm tire would 'do' that the 25 doesn't do now, on the dirt roads I ride around Boulder County. Biggest issue is the washboard...but not the dirt itself..

[marciero]

I've never wished for a narrower tire on gravel but have craved even wider.

So true. Sort of like gearing...

I sort of concur with what seems to be the consensus-that 28 is the cutoff between the regular and crushed, as defined in Schmed's reference photos. But I would increase that number to 32. It will just be more comfortable. And you wont lose anything on smooth road with a nice 32 tire.

[jc031699]

I live in Dallas, where we have long gravel roads along the levee of the Trinity river. I just tried a pair of Vittoria Randonneur 28s at 65-70 psi last weekend on my cx bike. It was exciting to say the least. On large loose gravel, I had to pay super close attention, and my back wheel was fishtailing constantly. Fine on crushed, fine on packed dirt but useless on loose dirt also. Had visions of wiping out on the ramps up and down the levees. Gonna go back to using cross tires for this ride even though there is a long road ride at either end.

I concur with all of the above limitations for 28s. Fine for crushed gravel, have even used 23 gatorskins for that, fine for packed dirt. Other conditions much more challenging.

[commonguy001]

I'm up in MN and the tire width question really comes down to where you'll be riding and what conditions the roads are in.
Many of our gravel roads are nice enough that you can get by with a 23-28mm tire, my gravel kings in 28 measure out at 30mm and are good for most stuff near the cities.

This weekend I'm re-riding the Dickie Scramble route out of Elgin. This spring could have ridden most of it on 30s but will opt for 35 or 40mm tires this time around as 70 miles of it is on gravel and I'd be bummed to be on something smaller if they're soft or rough.

[gavingould]

i've done 60+ mile rides on dirt/gravel with Vittoria Pave 27s. sure, there were times i wished i'd opted for a wider tire, but for the most part no issue.

[maxcolumbus]

We have a mostly crushed gravel with some heavier and rockier gravel roads as well. I find the Rivendell Ruffy Tuffys work real well here. They also roll nicely on Tarmac. We often do road/gravel/road type rides and they handle both at consistent pressure.

This is a smoother section.

http://www.velospace.org/files/MAXLEVEE.png

[zennmotion]

I'll ride (real) 28s on just about anything pictured here. But now add water. Does it not rain on any of the roads discussed here? Forest roads that take a long time to dry after a spell of wet weather? Or half frozen slush mixed with sand in winter? There's a reason my cross bike sees so many winter and early spring miles on rural unpaved roads.

[Tandem Rider]

I'll ride (real) 28s on just about anything pictured here. But now add water. Does it not rain on any of the roads discussed here? Forest roads that take a long time to dry after a spell of wet weather? Or half frozen slush mixed with sand in winter? There's a reason my cross bike sees so many winter and early spring miles on rural unpaved roads.

Moisture is the real determinant here too. Thaws or lots of rain makes things squishy. I have a set of wheels ready to go with wider and rougher tires for this situation, and a set with 28 gators for the rest of the time.

[joosttx]

I ride with either Challenge PR or Hutchinson Sectuer 28's. I have been riding with the Sectuers this summer because they are tubeless, which I am loving for two reasons 1) no flats 2) I can run them at very low pressure.

28s are about all you need for dirt roads. 32's are fine if you want to blaze down hills. I would argue anything with a wider diameter is not necessary.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3916/15091459626_42509f58a1_c.jpg

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5587/14910109347_6726415f70_c.jpg

I am basically riding trails not roads on 28's with pure joy.

[Fatty]

I am basically riding trails not roads on 28's with pure joy.

Wow. Most excellent scenery.

[witcombusa]

I ride with either Challenge PR or Hutchinson Sectuer 28's. I have been riding with the Sectuers this summer because they are tubeless, which I am loving for two reasons 1) no flats 2) I can run them at very low pressure.

28s are about all you need for dirt roads. 32's are fine if you want to blaze down hills. I would argue anything with a wider diameter is not necessary.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3916/15091459626_42509f58a1_c.jpg

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5587/14910109347_6726415f70_c.jpg

I am basically riding trails not roads on 28's with pure joy.

Sure, for dry firm dirt like that! In New England we get rain which washs off the fine silt and leaves coarse rock/gravel or mud, depending. Also out in CO, if the grader has been by recently (and they do an awesome job) it makes for a deep fluffy mix for a number of days that 28's would absolutely suck at. Hell, I've been on 35's after the grader went through the day before and that was a handfull!

So "depending on local surface", the answer could be almost anything. Also, it's not just IF it's possible, it's what works best for you after trying a few different combos of tire size, type and pressure.

[jmoore]

I ride in NTx.so the roads are going to be generally hard packed and dry crushed gravel. I'm betting that any of the 28s mentioned will do well.


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[ceolwulf]

At Strade Bianche weren't most of the peloton on 25s or 27s?

I go wider here because there is sometimes some pretty coarse gravel but mostly it would work fine.

[palincss]

Also, it's not just IF it's possible, it's what works best for you after trying a few different combos of tire size, type and pressure.

After all, is IS perfectly possible to make do with a 42/52 crank, downtube shifters and a 5 speed freewheel, but I see lots of people here praising 10 and even 11 speed cassettes and god forbid electronic shifting too. It's funny how many will not apply the same logic to tires that they apply to practically everything else on a bicycle. What's so special about tires, that it's not "what is better," but rather "what is the minimum necessary so you don't absolutely have to get off and walk"?

[oldpotatoe]

After all, is IS perfectly possible to make do with a 42/52 crank, downtube shifters and a 5 speed freewheel, but I see lots of people here praising 10 and even 11 speed cassettes and god forbid electronic shifting too. It's funny how many will not apply the same logic to tires that they apply to practically everything else on a bicycle. What's so special about tires, that it's not "what is better," but rather "what is the minimum necessary so you don't absolutely have to get off and walk"?

Except friction shifters and 5 speed freewheel when compared to 11s ERGO is not the same as my 25c tires when compared to 32++ considering the dirt roads I ride.

Generally hardish packed dirt roads, some loose stuff, rolling hills. How would a bigger/fatter(32+)tire be better for me? Even if it did fit, which it doesn't.

Honest question. Seems like, for me, best combo of what I'm looking for in a clincher tire. 1/3 of an inch increase in diameter about...25 to 35.

I did have my moots with 28c before I had it modded back to geared bike from fixie, no rear brake and cross fork up front. Maybe it was the tire but the bike felt sluggish with 28c Gatorskins and Vittoria Rando something in 28...

Ymmv

[11.4]

This choice of tires really comes down to how you ride gravel. There are a lot of people who like to float on top of whatever is on the road, so if you're in loose gravel or washboard you stay on top of it. The plus is that it's predictable -- to an extent. The negative is that the gravel is still under your tire and at the point it releases and you slide, you do so quite unpredictably and with limited recovery possible. Then there are people who learned to ride when there were only narrow tires available -- those born before the dawn of time, like Tater -- and understand how to let the tire sink in and find the firmament underneath. You may be sliding and skidding a bit but it's a controlled thing, and you know you may see your tire and rim buried in gravel and you can't see what it's touching, but you know it will be better anchored than if it's floating on top. Riding smaller tires requires a different and sometimes more advanced kind of bike handling, but once you have it, it's great. On washboard, it's the best solution. On deep big gravel, it may feel marginally less stable but you have more control and more feel of what is going to happen. If you're going to slide, you're probably going to slide on any tire, regardless.

More important than tire diameter is going to be riding position and managing your center of gravity. This isn't a situation to ride up high -- better to keep your CG low. Your bike can do a little of that for you (low bottom bracket, etc.) but nothing like simply modifying your position to ride comfortably in a lower position, plus possibly lowering your saddle slightly. Also, keep your weight forward enough so you weight your front wheel properly -- you can manage a slide in your rear wheel, but probably not in your front. And of course, keep pedaling.

[palincss]

Except friction shifters and 5 speed freewheel when compared to 11s ERGO is not the same as my 25c tires when compared to 32++ considering the dirt roads I ride.


How would you know, without trying? Trying to decide between 2x5 with downtube levers and 2x11 Ergo purely as a pencil and paper exercise, without any field experience to inform the decision, risks totally missing the point.


Generally hardish packed dirt roads, some loose stuff, rolling hills. How would a bigger/fatter(32+)tire be better for me? Even if it did fit, which it doesn't.


Well, if it won't fit the frame, the question is academic. But in general, if the question is how does a wider tire help, the short answers are wider tires allow you to use less pressure, which provides more cushioning (remember, pneumatic tires were invented for the purpose of suspension), and with a wider footprint a tire will have better grip and dig in less on questionable surfaces. Whether this would make a big difference in your particular case depends on you and on the roads you ride.

Maybe the question to ask instead is, since it is completely obvious that lower air pressure will give you a better ride on rough surfaces, where does the resistance to the idea come from? Clearly, "won't fit the frame" is an ace of trumps; but beyond that, I'm confident for many there is an assumption lurking, that wider with lower pressure must be slower, because narrower with higher pressure must be faster.


Honest question. Seems like, for me, best combo of what I'm looking for in a clincher tire. 1/3 of an inch increase in diameter about...25 to 35.


In terms of volume, the difference between 25 and 35mm is huge. For the same 50kg wheel load, tire pressure would go from just under 100 psi down to under 60 psi.



I did have my moots with 28c before I had it modded back to geared bike from fixie, no rear brake and cross fork up front. Maybe it was the tire but the bike felt sluggish with 28c Gatorskins and Vittoria Rando something in 28...

Ymmv

Yes, especially if you are comparing apples and oranges. A 23mm Armadillo tire is going to feel very sluggish when compared to a 27mm Parigi Roubaix, too, and not because the size is different but rather because of the construction differences.

[Admiral Ackbar]

i never had problems with 25s on gravel around here, the 28s i have now were a small but worthwhile improvement tho. the gravel i ride is usually hardpack pea gravel, or loose granular stuff over hardpack, a few sections of more coarse quarry gravel mixed in too, and some washboarding. never a problem with 25s or 28s, the only difference is the bigger tire is more comfortable, maybe more predictable cornering too.

if you pick you lines wisely instead of just hamfisting it over everything like a goon i don't see the need for anything much bigger than 30mm tire. and of course tire quality and construction comes into play as well. this is based on my presumption that most people will be riding at least 50% of their rides on the road as well, linking or seeking out gravel. i suppose if you're gonna full on "gravel grinder" you might as well get some cx tires or whatever "gravel specific" tires are all the rage. but from what I've seen they usually have pretty substantial tread which i wouldn't want if i was putting any serious pavement miles in

[oldpotatoe]

How would you know, without trying? Trying to decide between 2x5 with downtube levers and 2x11 Ergo purely as a pencil and paper exercise, without any field experience to inform the decision, risks totally missing the point.



Well, if it won't fit the frame, the question is academic. But in general, if the question is how does a wider tire help, the short answers are wider tires allow you to use less pressure, which provides more cushioning (remember, pneumatic tires were invented for the purpose of suspension), and with a wider footprint a tire will have better grip and dig in less on questionable surfaces. Whether this would make a big difference in your particular case depends on you and on the roads you ride.

Maybe the question to ask instead is, since it is completely obvious that lower air pressure will give you a better ride on rough surfaces, where does the resistance to the idea come from? Clearly, "won't fit the frame" is an ace of trumps; but beyond that, I'm confident for many there is an assumption lurking, that wider with lower pressure must be slower, because narrower with higher pressure must be faster.



In terms of volume, the difference between 25 and 35mm is huge. For the same 50kg wheel load, tire pressure would go from just under 100 psi down to under 60 psi.

Yes, especially if you are comparing apples and oranges. A 23mm Armadillo tire is going to feel very sluggish when compared to a 27mm Parigi Roubaix, too, and not because the size is different but rather because of the construction differences.

Thanks but happy with what I have, and where I ride.

[unterhausen]

I used to ride the gravel in southwest Virginia on regular road tubular tires that would have been perfectly at home in a race. Up here in Pennsylvania, there is a fairly large budget for gravel, and that approach would immediately result in some expensive flats. The way they build roads here is to put down large (3") rocks, fill in with dirt, and then dump gravel on that. The people that try with 28mm tires are good at changing flats. Last year, I rode gravel on some of the largest 32mm cross tires I've seen, and I would get pinch flats a lot more often that I liked. So now I have a bike with more clearance, I've been really happy with 38mm tires. I am probably going to go a little larger when I replace them.

I really like the kind of roads that are mostly dirt. Our roads take constant attention. When there are piles of gravel that are inches deep, digging in can really be a challence to remain upright. A couple of years ago when I was just starting out riding the PA gravel roads, I was using some very small 30mm tires, and digging in to the gravel was a real issue. I never went down, because I'm a fairly competent bike handler, but I didn't like having to be quite so vigilant. Our roads here are either up or down, you just don't find a lot of flat roads. So descending in that deep stuff at speed isn't fun on small tires

[jmoore]

This thread has taken on an interesting life of it's own.

Only water bottle cages get this much play!

All hail The Paceline

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[Tandem Rider]

This thread has taken on an interesting life of it's own.

Only water bottle cages get this much play!

All hail The Paceline

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Some of us ride almost as much gravel as pavement so we get passionate about it. It's always good to hear other's experience's :^)

[pbarry]

Thanks but happy with what I have, and where I ride.


+1

I ride these same roads on my Mondonico road bike with Conti 4 Season 23 tires. Not a challenge whatsoever, tho the bike/tires get looks from the CX folks going much slower on their plush tubies. I have several sleds, but don't need a special one here.

[JonSnow]

A few weeks ago my brother and I were photographed by a large group of MTN bikers as we passed them by on some technical gravel. Both riding Hampsten's on 25's. The MTB crowd was in disbelief. I think most people don't realize how much stability you do get on a skinnier tire that bites through deeper gravel.


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[teleguy57]

A few weeks ago my brother and I were photographed by a large group of MTN bikers as we passed them by on some technical gravel. Both riding Hampsten's on 25's. The MTB crowd was in disbelief. I think most people don't realize how much stability you do get on a skinnier tire that bites through deeper gravel.


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It's the Hampsten:)

[oldpotatoe]

+1

I ride these same roads on my Mondonico road bike with Conti 4 Season 23 tires. Not a challenge whatsoever, tho the bike/tires get looks from the CX folks going much slower on their plush tubies. I have several sleds, but don't need a special one here.

Yup...I roll eyes at the 'gotta have' point of view..like the Bicycle messenger 'gotta have' a fixie..nope gotta have a bike. Don't 'gotta have' a SUV for Colorado's winters either, or 'gotta have' strava or 'gotta be on' facebook or twitter or blah....I'm out.

[Netdewt]

Yup...I roll eyes at the 'gotta have' point of view..like the Bicycle messenger 'gotta have' a fixie..nope gotta have a bike. Don't 'gotta have' a SUV for Colorado's winters either, or 'gotta have' strava or 'gotta be on' facebook or twitter or blah....I'm out.

Is it really about the tires? Or is it some kind of HTFU chest-beating thing? You can see similar "disagreements" in several issues of cycling and elsewhere. Spandex or jeans? Gears or fixed? Full suspension 29er or rigid 26er? Metal or carbon?

On a side note, I agree with you about SUVs. Very few people need 4WD. I drove a RWD BMW convertible (on snow tires, of course) through 4 MN winters and had no issues with traction whatsoever.

It doesn't really matter which is "better". Just do what you want. :) :banana:

[oldpotatoe]

Is it really about the tires? Or is it some kind of HTFU chest-beating thing? You can see similar "disagreements" in several issues of cycling and elsewhere. Spandex or jeans? Gears or fixed? Full suspension 29er or rigid 26er? Metal or carbon?

On a side note, I agree with you about SUVs. Very few people need 4WD. I drove a RWD BMW convertible (on snow tires, of course) through 4 MN winters and had no issues with traction whatsoever.

It doesn't really matter which is "better". Just do what you want. :) :banana:

Yup...also drove a 2WD Ranger truck thru 2 winters, with snow tires all around...never had a problem. How many 4WD Saabs or Volvos are sold in Sweden I wonder?

[Netdewt]

Yup...also drove a 2WD Ranger truck thru 2 winters, with snow tires all around...never had a problem. How many 4WD Saabs or Volvos are sold in Sweden I wonder?

Oh, and when will fat bikes have AWD?

[thirdgenbird]

Oh, and when will fat bikes have AWD?

Awd kits for bikes have existed since I was a kid. I'm guessing one has been installed on a fat bike.

Add me to the list that doesn't understand "need". I've got 4wd but didn't use it all winter long. I also rode a rigid 26er on the same trails that were built by locals that ride long travel enduros.

[GeorgeTSquirrel]

So true. Sort of like gearing...

I sort of concur with what seems to be the consensus-that 28 is the cutoff between the regular and crushed, as defined in Schmed's reference photos. But I would increase that number to 32. It will just be more comfortable. And you wont lose anything on smooth road with a nice 32 tire.

I've only wished I had 32mm or larger maybe 10% of the time. 28mm is my tire of choice. I wouldn't want a wider tire unless I was touring or riding mostly off of paved surfaces (at least 51% of the time).

[russ46]

I started seriously searching out the dirt roads in CT's Litchfield Hills 3 years ago. Riding on a Concours w/Conti 4S 28's, which are more like fat 25's I got by. Definitely challenging at times because of short but steep ascents & descents and variable road conditions. 2 months ago I bought a hard-tail MTB and on weekends I go for the dirt. While not particularly challenging now its one hell of a lot more pleasant - gone are the bone jarring descents w/cramped hands from riding the brakes and jumping off during ascents because I've run out of gas - need to stand - but know I'll have no traction. I enjoy looking at the scenery on a descent now instead of keeping eyes peeled to the gravel and rocks directly in front of me!!! I don't think I'll go back.

[palincss]

Yup...also drove a 2WD Ranger truck thru 2 winters, with snow tires all around...never had a problem. How many 4WD Saabs or Volvos are sold in Sweden I wonder?

There's no question, snow tires make more difference than four wheel drive.

[palincss]

I've only wished I had 32mm or larger maybe 10% of the time. 28mm is my tire of choice. I wouldn't want a wider tire unless I was touring or riding mostly off of paved surfaces (at least 51% of the time).

Why?

[witcombusa]

There's no question, snow tires make more difference than four wheel drive.

And premium snow tires plus AWD make winter even better if you live in snow/ice country.

[Netdewt]

And premium snow tires plus AWD make winter even better if you live in snow/ice country.

Maybe, but the AWD is not necessary for reliable transportation, and it adds a lot of cost in gas and maintenance. And RWD will always be the most FUN.

[thirdgenbird]

Maybe, but the AWD is not necessary for reliable transportation, and it adds a lot of cost in gas and maintenance. And RWD will always be the most FUN.

Sorta like my rigid 26er. The guys with full suspension may be faster, but I had just as much or more fun on a bike that probably cost about what their fork did.

[marciero]

This choice of tires really comes down to how you ride gravel. There are a lot of people who like to float on top of whatever is on the road, so if you're in loose gravel or washboard you stay on top of it. The plus is that it's predictable -- to an extent. The negative is that the gravel is still under your tire and at the point it releases and you slide, you do so quite unpredictably and with limited recovery possible. Then there are people who learned to ride when there were only narrow tires available -- those born before the dawn of time, like Tater -- and understand how to let the tire sink in and find the firmament underneath. You may be sliding and skidding a bit but it's a controlled thing, and you know you may see your tire and rim buried in gravel and you can't see what it's touching, but you know it will be better anchored than if it's floating on top. Riding smaller tires requires a different and sometimes more advanced kind of bike handling,


The argument that thinner tires somehow "cut through" sounds plausible but I dont buy it. Or let's just say I am skeptical. I would bet that the type of effect you describe would be heavily dependent on the composition of the terrain, your speed, your weight, your tire pressure, etc. I've heard the same argument for skinny tires in snow. As in snow both skinny and wider tires will compress the terrain, at which point, other things being equal, they will both be equally prone to slipping since force on the tires is the same. The other things that are not equal include the fact that the larger tire, with lower pressure, will have a larger contact area and more chance to grip onto irregularities in the road, including stones which can temporarily embed in both tire and dirt.

You may prefer riding smaller tires, and perhaps have acquired advanced handling skills because of it.

[GeorgeTSquirrel]

Why?

Don't see a benefit of going wider for 10% of my rides when I can just grab a different bike or throw on a different wheelset. 32mm is luke-warm for me... I'd rather run 28mm's or something close to 40mm instead of settling for 32-35mm that are slower than the 28mm yet lack the ride of a 40mm. The middle-ground doesn't appeal to me (likewise <28mm doesn't appeal to me either).

Just my opinion, based on the conditions/materials I ride. I only truly wished that I had at least a 35mm once in my life, riding on the C&O after a rain shower. Otherwise, I've been super happy running 28's.

[GeorgeTSquirrel]

Maybe, but the AWD is not necessary for reliable transportation, and it adds a lot of cost in gas and maintenance. And RWD will always be the most FUN.

I'd be perfectly happy with a limited-slip differential, like a Quaife. That and good all-season tires and I don't imagine I would ever run into a problem that couldn't be overcome with emergency chains (worst case scenario). I say this, also assuming manual transmission.

I wouldn't personally want RWD for a car that I drive in the winter...

[witcombusa]

I'd be perfectly happy with a limited-slip differential, like a Quaife. That and good all-season tires and I don't imagine I would ever run into a problem that couldn't be overcome with emergency chains (worst case scenario). I say this, also assuming manual transmission.

I wouldn't personally want RWD for a car that I drive in the winter...


"No" season tires are the worst of all worlds, they underperform 12 months of the year. "Good" no season tires is an oxymoron.

Yes, the right tires do make a huge difference. Limited-slip should be at least an option on any driven axle (but sadly isn't in 95% of cars). Traction control, i.e. reverse anti-lock braking, is a complete joke.

For those in snow country that do not drive on high end winter tires because you "don't need them". You have no idea what you are missing and are less safe to yourself and those on the road with you. Quebec has made winter tires mandatory from Dec. 15 through Mar. 15. THIS is a great thing!


http://www.mtq.gouv.qc.ca/portal/page/portal/grand_public_en/vehicules_promenade/securite_routiere/securite_conditions_hivernales/reglement_utilisation_pneus_hiver

[palincss]

I recall a few years ago an article in Car & Driver written by a race driver about winter tires. He said the most terrifying experience of his life was driving from the airport in a couple of inches of snow with an Audi TT with summer tires and all wheel drive.

[Netdewt]

So, to bring this back to gravel...

On a car, does the tire size matter for snow tires? I have tended to use a smaller wheel / chunkier tire for winter to soak up potholes and packed snow and ice bumps on the road. We had some really wicked frozen ice chatter on our roads for a few weeks last winter, and my fat tires were OK, but having a cushier suspension would have been nice too.

So, while I can empathize with those who like true road tires on gravel, I would tend toward wanting a fatter tire (I think I said before, my Space Horse has 32c on it now, and I wish I had gone 35c). It makes the bike slower, but I'm already slow, so I'm just happy to have a more comfortable ride. Plus, fat tires look awesome, IMO.

What about tread pattern and material for a tire you intend to use on gravel/dirt? Would you run a Veloflex Master on dirt?

[etu]

I would echo the sentiment that even more important than variability in terrain is the differences why we ride and what we want from our rides. The question isn't whether it is possible to ride 28's on gravel, but whether it is ideal for each of us. Clearly 28 tires is not right for everyone and it doesn't make sense for us to tell one another what is the best choice of tire size when there is so much subjectivity involved. Personal experience, preference is great and appreciated.
We all have different levels of bike handling skills and tolerance/need for adrenaline, etc. I am definitely on the conservative side. I don't enjoy the thrill of screaming descents and I don't find it pleasant when the rear wheel slides out. Does that make me a "bad" cyclist? Well, I probably will never do a cyclocross race, but I am pretty happy with just putting in 3000-5000 miles a year doing all thes great climbs in the SF Bay Area.
So if a 28 or even 25 works for you, good for you! But please don't try to convince me that they are ideal for me. Right now I am using 650x42 hetres which seems to work surprisingly well for me (despite lack of knobbies).

[p nut]

So, to bring this back to gravel...

On a car, does the tire size matter for snow tires? I have tended to use a smaller wheel / chunkier tire for winter to soak up potholes and packed snow and ice bumps on the road. We had some really wicked frozen ice chatter on our roads for a few weeks last winter, and my fat tires were OK, but having a cushier suspension would have been nice too.

So, while I can empathize with those who like true road tires on gravel, I would tend toward wanting a fatter tire (I think I said before, my Space Horse has 32c on it now, and I wish I had gone 35c). It makes the bike slower, but I'm already slow, so I'm just happy to have a more comfortable ride. Plus, fat tires look awesome, IMO.

What about tread pattern and material for a tire you intend to use on gravel/dirt? Would you run a Veloflex Master on dirt?

I've been quite happy with Hetre's on dirt/gravel (along with my Pasela's (32) and RocknRoads). Just have to watch the corners. 30-40psi and the ride is smooth. For 100% rough gravel rides, I wouldn't mind a chunkier tread. 650b RocknRoads or Soma Cazadero would be the ticket for me.

As far as the snow tire analogy, I have always bought skinnier tires. Helps cut through the slush to grip the pavement. By the way, I will take my AWD with good all-season tires over my FWD/RWD with (studded) snow tires. Standing starts on a hill is the killer for 2wd vehicles (unless chains are involved). People tend to brake (!) going up a hill in a blizzard around here, then eventually spin out and get stuck.

[Netdewt]

I've been quite happy with Hetre's on dirt/gravel (along with my Pasela's (32) and RocknRoads). Just have to watch the corners. 30-40psi and the ride is smooth. For 100% rough gravel rides, I wouldn't mind a chunkier tread. 650b RocknRoads or Soma Cazadero would be the ticket for me.

As far as the snow tire analogy, I have always bought skinnier tires. Helps cut through the slush to grip the pavement. By the way, I will take my AWD with good all-season tires over my FWD/RWD with (studded) snow tires. Standing starts on a hill is the killer for 2wd vehicles (unless chains are involved). People tend to brake (!) going up a hill in a blizzard around here, then eventually spin out and get stuck.

30-40, really that low? I guess I should try it. I've been thinking 70ish is low for the 32c Paselas. I didn't look into it enough I guess.

[buldogge]

Thoughts on the 28mm Panaracer 'Gravel King'???

I'll probably wait for the 32s to be released and give them a whirl.

Normally I run a mixed set of Kenda Slant 6 and Smallblock 8s, in 35/32.

-Mark in St. Louis

[p nut]

30-40, really that low? I guess I should try it. I've been thinking 70ish is low for the 32c Paselas. I didn't look into it enough I guess.

Sorry, that was for the Hetre's. Pasela's, I'm around 60. Also, I weigh 160.

[palincss]

30-40, really that low? I guess I should try it. I've been thinking 70ish is low for the 32c Paselas. I didn't look into it enough I guess.

He doesn't tell us how much he weighs. I weigh just over 200 lb and run my Hetres at 50 psi and ~75 psi in back for my 32mm GB Cypress.

[Netdewt]

I'm also 160.

[bluesea]

Don't know what the big deal is. In '95 when I moved to the Big Island I mounted early Rivendel 28c proprietary Panaracers on a Road Logic. Rode lots of miles on rough partially exposed rock laden gravel-ish two track in unimproved subdivisions. Rocks and gravel bouncing off the rim is a bit disconcerting at first, but you get used to it.

Tom Ritchey did it that way, and he was my inspiration at the time. Of course times have changed, equipment has changed, even with him.

Btw, lots of tire clearance on the Road Logic with '95 Campy Record.

[Admiral Ackbar]

Thoughts on the 28mm Panaracer 'Gravel King'???

I'll probably wait for the 32s to be released and give them a whirl.

*snip*

-Mark in St. Louis

i have them in 28mm with 1000+ mi on them. i like them a lot. comfy, surprisingly durable, and they feel pretty fast too.

and speaking of low psi, I've run them down to around 40f/45r psi on certain days when and they are so, so comfy without feeling slow or like they're going to roll off the rim. but i am ~140lbs.

[GeorgeTSquirrel]

"No" season tires are the worst of all worlds, they underperform 12 months of the year. "Good" no season tires is an oxymoron.


no more an oxymoron than a tire that is: not-expensive, good on wet roads, long-lasting, quiet, grippy, etc. I'm sure we could make a list twenty points long comparing variables... everything is a tradeoff.

I see no point in summer tires unless you live in the deep south or use them on a track.

Winter is relative. In PA, I could use a decent set of winter tires (and I don't claim that they wouldn't out-perform an all-season tire). There's a difference between out-performing and being useless, however, and I've had luck with all-season tires in the snow. When I lived in Seattle, winter tires would have been a waste. If I had a garage to keep two or three sets of tires in, believe me, I would... but that's not an option for me, so I need to choose my trade-offs wisely.

Yeah, ideally I'd just keep an extra set of wheels in the garage for winter tires while running "3-season" tires on the other set of wheels.

So, if I had to define "good" in the context of an "all season" tire, it would be the tire that matches the most of my variables. You are sorta making assumptions as to what good implies when you argue that there is no good "no season" tire. I never said what variable I was comparing when I stated good, it certainly wouldn't be grip on cold roads.

I certainly disagree with you that it is the "worst of all worlds" since there is no such thing as an ideal tire, only a tire ideal for a very specific set of conditions.

Regardless, your point is taken... I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. Winter tires are better in winter and preferred/encouraged if multiple sets of tires are an option.

[marciero]

Don't see a benefit of going wider for 10% of my rides when I can just grab a different bike or throw on a different wheelset. 32mm is luke-warm for me... I'd rather run 28mm's or something close to 40mm instead of settling for 32-35mm that are slower than the 28mm yet lack the ride of a 40mm.

I've advocated 32, but agree about the "luke warm" feeling. I am not sure if they are slower but they dont have the really great road feel of a nice 28, in my case Schwalbe Ultremo. On gravel and dirt though, road feel seems a lot less of a factor.