Horner out of Vuelta...

[FlashUNC]

Probably the least shocking news I've heard all week.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/08/news/lampre-pulls-horner-out-of-vuelta-for-conflict-with-mpcc_342072

[ultraman6970]

W t f???

:(

ps: can they use something else to get the guy to normal? just asking.

[54ny77]

just read that.

wow.

how could there not be anything other than cortisol to deal with bronchitis?

[Shortsocks]

I don't want to turn this into a doping conversation. But there's got to be a better way to hand bronchitis than this. This really sucks. I was really looking forward to seeing Horner.....how far is too far?

[MattTuck]

c'mon! how about a spoiler warning :P


Well, for all the crap that the MPCC took early on about not being legit, it is nice to see some real consequences for riders and teams when they engage in this sort of questionable behavior (even if it is an American I would be cheering for). Of course, the UCI TUE is an entirely different problem...

[oldpotatoe]

c'mon! how about a spoiler warning :P


Well, for all the crap that the MPCC took early on about not being legit, it is nice to see some real consequences for riders and teams when they engage in this sort of questionable behavior (even if it is an American I would be cheering for). Of course, the UCI TUE is an entirely different problem...

What sort of 'questionable behavior' do you mean? Did you read the article or just assuming it to be BS cuz Horner is such a doper?

[djdj]

How is this "questionable?" He was, with UCI permission, treated with cortisone for his bronchitis. This had the unfortunate consequence of lowering his cortisol to a level considered unsafe. The risk of that happening apparently was known when the cortisone was administered, though there was also a chance it would not have that effect.

Note that only a handful of teams have committed, through the MPCC, to not let a rider compete below that level. The majority of the major teams have not agreed.

[MattTuck]

What sort of 'questionable behavior' do you mean? Did you read the article or just assuming it to be BS cuz Horner is such a doper?

The risk of that happening apparently was known when the cortisone was administered, though there was also a chance it would not have that effect.


This. These guys are right on the cusp of therapeutic use and performance enhancement when they use some of these drugs. If that is the road they take, (taking a drug for medical reasons that has ramifications on performance and indicative biomarkers), then there have to be rules about where you draw the line.

otherwise, everyone in the peloton would be getting 'bronchitis' and a TUE and it would be an arms race of pseudo-legitimate PEDs use.

Now, that is my opinion of the fact pattern on its face. There could also be some conspiracy theories related to Horner not being in good enough shape for the Vuelta, and thus avoiding embarrassment, or even that this avoids a bigger finding of doping if he were to be tested during the race. Who knows.

It sucks that Horner is out. I certainly am bummed about that. But the perception of how teams and riders handle these borderline cases says a lot about how serious they are about doping and trying to keep the sport clean.

[johnmdesigner]

And the other Chris is practicing his falling skills.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-uninjured-after-pre-vuelta-crash

[redir]

Too bad, I was looking forward to watching the old man ride.

[alessandro]

And the other Chris is practicing his falling skills.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-uninjured-after-pre-vuelta-crash

Will there be a torn jersey presentation for the rider with the most crashes? It could also be awarded to the rider with greatest body surface area covered by road rash.

[oldpotatoe]

This. These guys are right on the cusp of therapeutic use and performance enhancement when they use some of these drugs. If that is the road they take, (taking a drug for medical reasons that has ramifications on performance and indicative biomarkers), then there have to be rules about where you draw the line.

otherwise, everyone in the peloton would be getting 'bronchitis' and a TUE and it would be an arms race of pseudo-legitimate PEDs use.

Now, that is my opinion of the fact pattern on its face. There could also be some conspiracy theories related to Horner not being in good enough shape for the Vuelta, and thus avoiding embarrassment, or even that this avoids a bigger finding of doping if he were to be tested during the race. Who knows.

It sucks that Horner is out. I certainly am bummed about that. But the perception of how teams and riders handle these borderline cases says a lot about how serious they are about doping and trying to keep the sport clean.

I would say so except they did/said everything up front rather than trying to explain after the fact and yeh, I think Horner is clean.

Did he get a prednisone type med? Not a md.

[alessandro]

I would say so except they did/said everything up front rather than trying to explain after the fact and yeh, I think Horner is clean.

Did he get a prednisone type med? Not a md.

Same class of drugs--they're all corticosteroids.

Good review of the MPCC and cortisol from The Inner Ring last year:
http://inrng.com/2013/06/mpcc-cortisol-test/

[dpk501]

I would say so except they did/said everything up front rather than trying to explain after the fact and yeh, I think Horner is clean.

Did he get a prednisone type med? Not a md.

He was given oral pred.

It's such a shame.

[bobswire]

Playing by the rules they themselves signed up for left them between a rock and a hard place. There are sometimes exceptions to the rule,I'll bet other Teams who may have been considering joining will have second thoughts and I imagine a few will let their subscription lapse when do and not rejoin.

[MattTuck]

Playing by the rules they themselves signed up for left them between a rock and a hard place. There are sometimes exceptions to the rule,I'll bet other Teams who may have been considering joining will have second thoughts and I imagine a few will let their subscription lapse when do and not rejoin.

But what is the alternative? Abandon your espoused values when they are inconvenient?

Maybe this makes other riders/doctors think twice about their racing schedule and how they treat illness. We all knew Horner had a long row to hoe after that car accident, and I'm bummed that he's out.

But it is nice to commit to some values, and then stand up for them when it matters.

[Lewis Moon]

But what is the alternative? Abandon your espoused values when they are inconvenient?

Maybe this makes other riders/doctors think twice about their racing schedule and how they treat illness. We all knew Horner had a long row to hoe after that car accident, and I'm bummed that he's out.

But it is nice to commit to some values, and then stand up for them when it matters.

I think there needs to be some tightening of the TUEs. Perhaps to get one an athlete has to be examined by a neutral doc agreed upon by both the team and the Dope Chasers?

People get sick and have medical conditions. TUEs are needed and practical.

[danield]

Maybe pretext for other questionable things found in team medical tests? I can't stand watching Horner and Jens race, they represent remnants of the 90s/2000s doping era clinging desperately to relevancy.

Moreover just given his age, I'm puzzled as to why Horner did not retire after his Vuelta win, on a very high note like Vino. He looks complete battered this season.

[saab2000]

Maybe pretext for other questionable things found in team medical tests? I can't stand watching Horner and Jens race, they represent remnants of the 90s/2000s doping era clinging desperately to relevancy.

Moreover just given his age, I'm puzzled as to why Horner did not retire after his Vuelta win, on a very high note like Vino. He looks complete battered this season.

Except that contrary to others from that era, CH has never been implicated or named in reports. And now that there is in fact a purportedly cleaner field he's doing better than he did before.

To me he's a bit of an enigma but unlike others who rose to prominence from nowhere, CH has always been known as a super talented rider.

[Md3000]

Shame he is out - I like his grit and his post-race interviews :)
He still rode better in the TdF than many a team leader, ie. Frank Schleck or Jurgen Vandenbroucke

[Lewis Moon]

Maybe pretext for other questionable things found in team medical tests? I can't stand watching Horner and Jens race, they represent remnants of the 90s/2000s doping era clinging desperately to relevancy.

Moreover just given his age, I'm puzzled as to why Horner did not retire after his Vuelta win, on a very high note like Vino. He looks complete battered this season.

He didn't retire because he's in his 40s, is not a rich man and has never had another job that paid as well. Would you shine on the cash he's making?

As for representing the doping era, I fully believe you were a doper too. Old Potatoe was probably mainlining EPO and Slovelhead was selling smack to school kids.
I have as much data to support these suppositions as you do calling them dopers. Since when did innocent until proven guilty become out of fashion?
PS: My apologies to Peter and Shovelhead.

[Jgrooms]

Maybe pretext for other questionable things found in team medical tests? I can't stand watching Horner and Jens race, they represent remnants of the 90s/2000s doping era clinging desperately to relevancy.



Moreover just given his age, I'm puzzled as to why Horner did not retire after his Vuelta win, on a very high note like Vino. He looks complete battered this season.


Retire? He likes to race & made a nice paycheck by continuing.

Battered? Yes getting run over might do that.

[CunegoFan]

I think there needs to be some tightening of the TUEs. Perhaps to get one an athlete has to be examined by a neutral doc agreed upon by both the team and the Dope Chasers?

People get sick and have medical conditions. TUEs are needed and practical.

At a minimum what should happen is the UCI adopting MPCC policies that are designed to prevent riders from gaining an advantage from TUE's, legitimate or phony. Lampre's actions are considerably different from those of Team Sky earlier in the year, which had Froome racing while taking oral corticosteroids every day. If Sky was a member of the MPCC then Froome would have had to sit out of racing for period of time just like Horner.

While I have no doubt Horner has doped in the past--GT at 40+, don't be naive!--I like the guy and he would have made the Vuelta entertaining. He got screwed here because the competition is not held to the same standards.

[Lewis Moon]

At a minimum what should happen is the UCI adopting MPCC policies that are designed to prevent riders from gaining an advantage from TUE's, legitimate or phony. Lampre's actions are considerably different from those of Team Sky earlier in the year, which had Froome racing while taking oral corticosteroids every day. If Sky was a member of the MPCC then Froome would have had to sit out of racing for period of time just like Horner.

While I have no doubt Horner has doped in the past--GT at 40+, don't be naive!--I like the guy and he would have made the Vuelta entertaining. He got screwed here because the competition is not held to the same standards.

There is a lot of data out there pointing toward longer careers for endurance athletes. These guys are outliers but immediately jumping to the doping conclusion seems like "he's good therefore he MUST be doping".
Sorry, not ready to get out the torches and pitchforks every time I see a good performance I didn't expect.

[CunegoFan]

There is a lot of data out there pointing toward longer careers for endurance athletes. These guys are outliers but immediately jumping to the doping conclusion seems like "he's good therefore he MUST be doping".
Sorry, not ready to get out the torches and pitchforks every time I see a good performance I didn't expect.

You can believe what you want but Horner's reputation in the domestic pro scene is well earned, especially from his time on Team Saturn. Maybe he quit in 2006 like everyone else :rolleyes: and did his career crowning achievement clean at an age more than a decade after he should have reached physical peak. I would not bet a bent nickle on that though.

[FlashUNC]

Except that contrary to others from that era, CH has never been implicated or named in reports. And now that there is in fact a purportedly cleaner field he's doing better than he did before.

To me he's a bit of an enigma but unlike others who rose to prominence from nowhere, CH has always been known as a super talented rider.

There's certainly implication. Maybe not these days, but at some point:

http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/24/unbelievable-chris-horner/

When Cyclocosm has a hastag for posts that is "anonymous riders who might be Chris Horner," there's certainly some smoke around things. His Vuelta win didn't help his case at all.

[spartanKid]

There's certainly implication. Maybe not these days, but at some point:

http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/24/unbelievable-chris-horner/

When Cyclocosm has a hastag for posts that is "anonymous riders who might be Chris Horner," there's certainly some smoke around things. His Vuelta win didn't help his case at all.

When I read a lot of Tilford's stuff, he sounds like a very bitter guy who feels like he got totally screwed out of results in his youth, and now that the ghost is up on dopin, just sits and complains about all the guys who are being outed now, how he "knew all along", etc. etc.

This is the first time I've read a piece from him about doping where he DOESN'T seem like an angry, bitter man past-his-prime, but instead like a surprised fan like the majority of people out there who wanted to believe.

[Md3000]

Always remember guys, having your own hashtag = proof! :banana:

Read on inrng some interesting insights, people saying that if he would have gone straight to cortisone when he got sick during tour, he would've been I the clear by now, but since his contract is performance based and not a steady paycheck, he wanted to finish the tdf. Then had too little time to recover after trying different meds and conclusively cortisone.

[93legendti]

Same class of drugs--they're all corticosteroids.

Good review of the MPCC and cortisol from The Inner Ring last year:
http://inrng.com/2013/06/mpcc-cortisol-test/

I question the athletic performance value of prednisone. I have bad allergies and get sinus infections in winter and my allergy dr. includes prednisone as part of the treatment. I can't take 30 mg...it will keep me up all night - ironic, because a 10 pm espresso doesn't bother me. 10-20 mg for a few days helps get over the hump, but prednisone is dangerous to take for extended periods and can cause weight gain. I have never felt any advantage from taking prednisone other than making a nasty sinus thing go away quicker.

[djdj]

You can believe what you want but Horner's reputation in the domestic pro scene is well earned, especially from his time on Team Saturn. Maybe he quit in 2006 like everyone else :rolleyes: and did his career crowning achievement clean at an age more than a decade after he should have reached physical peak. I would not bet a bent nickle on that though.

Life would be so much easier if we could just convict based only on "reputation" and perception. Requiring proof is such a hassle.

[crankles]

Same exact problem. Need ambien to counter the sleep loss. Definately not a PED for me...ughI question the athletic performance value of prednisone. I have bad allergies and get sinus infections in winter and my allergy dr. includes prednisone as part of the treatment. I can't take 30 mg...it will keep me up all night - ironic, because a 10 pm espresso doesn't bother me. 10-20 mg for a few days helps get over the hump, but prednisone is dangerous to take for extended periods and can cause weight gain. I have never felt any advantage from taking prednisone other than making a nasty sinus thing go away quicker.

[pbarry]

I question the athletic performance value of prednisone. I have bad allergies and get sinus infections in winter and my allergy dr. includes prednisone as part of the treatment. I can't take 30 mg...it will keep me up all night - ironic, because a 10 pm espresso doesn't bother me. 10-20 mg for a few days helps get over the hump, but prednisone is dangerous to take for extended periods and can cause weight gain. I have never felt any advantage from taking prednisone other than making a nasty sinus thing go away quicker.

Same exact problem. Need ambien to counter the sleep loss. Definately not a PED for me...ugh

Not discounting either of your conditions, but, a highly tuned athlete may get a slight boost from a prescription of Cortisol. I can only think of sleeping deeply when imagining finishing 200km races, at a high heart rate, over and over, at 40+ years old. I'm 50, and just watching TDF stages makes me tired..

[mcteague]

Well, this makes this year's Vuelta a lot less interesting for me. What a year he has had after all the drama in finding a team.

Tim

[oldpotatoe]

He didn't retire because he's in his 40s, is not a rich man and has never had another job that paid as well. Would you shine on the cash he's making?

As for representing the doping era, I fully believe you were a doper too. Old Potatoe was probably mainlining EPO and Slovelhead was selling smack to school kids.
I have as much data to support these suppositions as you do calling them dopers. Since when did innocent until proven guilty become out of fashion?
PS: My apologies to Peter and Shovelhead.

no apology needed...

[Hawker]

Well, this makes this year's Vuelta a lot less interesting for me. What a year he has had after all the drama in finding a team.

Tim

My sentiments exactly. A major bummer.

[harryblack]

My sentiments exactly. A major bummer.

I was off the grid for the first three stages of the race and when I came back and went looking for Horner's placing, and didn't see him, I worked my way back and ...

Had the same initial reaction. Whatever his 'preparation' last year, I was very curious to see if/how he could hang this year, crashes/illness aside.

But then, you know what? Though I'd rather he was there, he made his own bed re: TUE and that's it.

And... when single stage of the Vuelta is greater (more interesting, exciting, better riders, better racing, etc) than all stages of the jive ass "USA Pro Challenge" whatever combined, it's hard to complain.

(This is no cut on Colorado the state btw, just an event that has repeatedly proven itself incapable, unwilling to design aworld class route. Fitting that such a lame race could have knucklehead frauds like Tom Danielson and Jens Voight as its "heroes" but there you go.

Also, Alberto Contador >>>>