leading group rides...

[Ti Designs]

I have been trying to start a group ride from my shop, it's far more frustrating than I ever expected. There are some things people think are easy, so they assume they can do them. From there somehow it's a small leap to thinking that they have done them - this is a part of the thought process that I don't understand, but I see it so often. If you question this leap, you are an a$$hole.

I am an a$$hole. There is plenty of data to back this up, both in people who claim to be able to do things they have never actually done, and the fact that I'm an a$$hole. With that out of the way...

In trying to start a shop ride I have gotten many responses which all read like "I know how to run a group ride, but they don't know how to ride". At first I questioned this ('cause I'm an a$$hole), I asked which groups they rode with. I know most of the established group rides in the area and the people who do them - I make it a point to do this because I want to know who's out riding. It turns out that most of them have tried a group ride or two and then decided they like riding alone. In other words, they have no clue how a group ride works.

Let me back that up with some data. There's one thing you NEVER do in a group ride - just vanish. If one person decides to up and leave a ride without saying anything to anyone else, the ride is screwed. Half the riders will be sitting there on the side of the road, the other half will go in search of the lost person. They'll go all the way back to where they last saw that person, then come back all confused. This has happened on two rides I was on recently, both times by people who claim they have lots of experience in running group rides. Despite what you think, the ability to lead a ride is not something you were born with, you've either learned how to do it, or you don't know how. Sying you have the experience doesn't make it so. And yes, I am still an a$$hole.

I have rather high standards when it comes to leading group rides, I learned from John Allis. John was a 3 time olympian, national champion, one of the first americans to win races in europe, and when it comes to leading group rides, non of that matters. What sets John apart is his ability to ride away with four hopeless riders and come back with a paceline. I've been coaching for 15 years, I still can't do that. What I learned from John is that coaching and leading rides is very much like a skill set that lots of people already have - being a parent. The first step in being a good parent is realizing that it's not about you. With that the focus shifts to teaching newer riders and keeping the group together. You can't teach what you don't know, but nothing forces you to learn a subject like teaching. Teaching becomes it's own reward, as your riders get better, so do you. Many of the racers I coach think I'm some former champion racer - I'm not. I can ride like I do because I have to be able to teach them how to win races. Being old and fast doesn't suck...



There are three points to this post:

1) Saying you know how to do something without actually putting it to the test is probably keeping you from being able to do it. Don't say you know how, do it. If it doesn't work, it's not because the rest of the world is broken, it's because you couldn't do what you assumed. I've read endless posts about how to paceline or how to ride in a group, I've also coached for 15 years. There are a lot of people who don't get the learning process - try it some time. Go riding with a few new riders, see if you can come back with a paceline.

2) Group rides are about the group, not the individual - it's not about you. This is where it gets confusing for most people because they're thinking it's about the workout. A real group ride is about the group, not the workout, yet it can be a far better workout than riding solo. For example, the last group ride I was in there were two guys who wanted to push the pace from the start. They were trading pulls and sending riders off the back. I was going back, getting dropped riders on my wheel, sitting up to make a better draft and towing them back in. To close the gap I needed to go slightly faster than they were going - who was getting the better workout? Turn off your ego for a bit and watch what's really going on...

3) I'm an a$$hole.

[MattTuck]

perhaps people are vanishing because they have fallen into the potholes that plague Belmont roads :rolleyes:


Ed, teaching is sometimes a thankless job. Keep fighting the good fight.

[saab2000]

This is the biggest issue on my local group rides - nobody wants to lead or be the jerk. But somebody should be.

Good post. I love good group rides and they do exist but often are pirate races with no discipline and questionable skills. The best group rides have a clear agenda, even in the absence of the leader. For example, the rides I do in the Twin Cities when I visit are more or less a no-drop ride but they're still high level. Tuesdays are intervals and Thursdays are sprints. There are some places where regroupings take place.

I'd love to have my own but with my strange schedule it's almost impossible to have a regular routine, something that is also important.

[redir]

I'm of the opinion that the best leader doesn't lead. Or maybe you are thinking too hard about it. Or maybe I'm just lucky enough to ride with people who don't have these kinds of problems. Or maybe you really are just an Ahole :) Or maybe I am? lol

The only thing I will add is that you just need to be clear on where the ride is going and what it's about. Our Saturday ride is hard and people get dropped. Sunday is a no drop ride so we regroup at the tops of the mountains or at the convenience store stops. If some one is new we just make sure they don't get lost. It's just not really that difficult.

[saab2000]

I'm of the opinion that the best leader doesn't lead. Or maybe you are thinking too hard about it. Or maybe I'm just lucky enough to ride with people who don't have these kinds of problems. Or maybe you really are just an Ahole :) Or maybe I am? lol

The only thing I will add is that you just need to be clear on where the ride is going and what it's about. Our Saturday ride is hard and people get dropped. Sunday is a no drop ride so we regroup at the tops of the mountains or at the convenience store stops. If some one is new we just make sure they don't get lost. It's just not really that difficult.

The best leaders maybe don't visibly lead but they are always there when it matters, doing the right thing.

In the case of the St. Paul ride I attend sometimes, it's at a shop and the shop owner is the leader or his designee leads. But everyone knows the 'rules' or what kind of ride it is. It's an A-level ride but inclusive at the same time. Thankfully, it's usually not too big though Saturdays can be a bit obnoxious. Normally it's 5-10 riders during the week.

[sandyrs]

Ed, is this ride open to the public?

[teleguy57]

The best leaders maybe don't visibly lead but they are always there when it matters, doing the right thing.

In the case of the St. Paul ride I attend sometimes, it's at a shop and the shop owner is the leader or his designee leads. But everyone knows the 'rules' or what kind of ride it is. It's an A-level ride but inclusive at the same time. Thankfully, it's usually not too big though Saturdays can be a bit obnoxious. Normally it's 5-10 riders during the week.

Yes.

Our local Wed night shop ride has grown to 50-60 people -- partially because of the chaos of some other area group rides but more because of our reputation for safety and teaching. We're now breaking into 4 groups and the A-groupers know how to ride (and anyone who is an A grouper wannabe is cautioned not to ride with that group if they haven't participated in the Tues night team ride). Each group has a designated leader (or two) chosen by the shop manager (who usually leads the 3rd or 4th group -- he is an amazing coach).

The manager makes the rounds and chats up new folks, and gives some overall guidelines for the ride.

And it really is about the group, not individual performance. Anyone is fair game for comment (aka getting yelled at) when they do something that doesn't help the group ride smoothly, safely and at a reasonable pace.

And most importantly -- beers afterwards at the local pub! :hello:

[redir]

The best leaders maybe don't visibly lead but they are always there when it matters, doing the right thing.

In the case of the St. Paul ride I attend sometimes, it's at a shop and the shop owner is the leader or his designee leads. But everyone knows the 'rules' or what kind of ride it is. It's an A-level ride but inclusive at the same time. Thankfully, it's usually not too big though Saturdays can be a bit obnoxious. Normally it's 5-10 riders during the week.

Hey, a bit of thread drift hijacking here but... What's there to do in St. Paul? I'm going to be there for a week next month for work but I won't have a bicycle. Any must see type things?

[Ti Designs]

Ed, is this ride open to the public?

Not yet. My goal was to teach the staff how to keep a group ride together, then open the ride up in September. Right now it's a group ride as long as everyone can keep up, which really isn't good enough.

[saab2000]

Hey, a bit of thread drift hijacking here but... What's there to do in St. Paul? I'm going to be there for a week next month for work but I won't have a bicycle. Any must see type things?

I'm not really an expert on St. Paul..... I go to the rides and know that St. Paul and the suburbs to the east and south provide great riding.

The Twin Cities in general is a great place. Go see the Minnesota Twins in Minneapolis. Or the lakes. Or the Mississippi River. There's all kinds of good stuff. St. Paul has some museums too.

I no longer live there but visit family there every few months.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Part of the challenge with group rides - in addition to varying abilities to actually ride in a group - is differing knowledge of the route and roads. This becomes amplified as the pace picks up. Getting a group of mixed-ability riders to keep it tight can be challenging, but doing it on new roads is even harder. My point here is that having a core group of regulars who know the loop can be just as important to a tight group ride as having a good leader. Fact of the matter is, one person will always find it hard to keep 30 people in line. Just ask your local public school teacher.

[tiretrax]

I used to ride with a group on Sunday mornings. Most of the riders rode well in a paceline, but there is one guy who lagged and then hammered through yellow/red lights, nearly getting hit by cars (a doctor, no less). Sometimes, he missed the light, so the group had to stop on the other side of the light and wait for him. Needless to say, it was quite aggravating.

My suggestion is to have a leader, someone mid-pack, and a sweeper. The mid-pack person can sense what's happening and inform the leader, and if someone comes off the back and wants to leave, the sweeper will see that and communicate up the line.

[polyhistoric]

I believe there is a point of diminishing returns as the group grows. I have found I have trouble leading a group that grows beyond 12 people, absent some "lieutenants" that help patrol the pack.

Many riders overestimate their abilities. Leading to horrible accordion-like rides. Similarly, others like to race off the front or drive the pace (leading to the pack/chase mentality). I like to pin the pace at a consistent number and keep it there for the duration (unless advertised otherwise).

I used to have some unplanned group rides of 6-8 - no Garmin, just follow a consistent leader on some new and unknown roads. Best days in the saddle. Now we have groups of 20+, all over the road - doesn't matter who has the route or knows the roads... can be a mess and a lot of distrust when you have half-wheelers.

Would be interested in some new options leaving Arl/Lex.

[josephr]

I'm sure there's some good content to this post, but probably skipped over most of as my eyes kept getting drawn to the parts where he calls himself an a$$hole.

Group rides are hard -- I've co-lead them a few times but generally take two folks to run IMO. A guy at the front to make sure people keep up with the route and a sweeper. Folks knowing the route seems most crucial to me -- I always have a 'show of hands' so those who know the route can help those who do not.

[saab2000]

I'm sure there's some good content to this post, but probably skipped over most of as my eyes kept getting drawn to the parts where he calls himself an a$$hole.

Group rides are hard -- I've co-lead them a few times but generally take two folks to run IMO. A guy at the front to make sure people keep up with the route and a sweeper. Folks knowing the route seems most crucial to me -- I always have a 'show of hands' so those who know the route can help those who do not.

I'm OK with him calling himself an a$$hole. Sometimes that's how to keep order and discipline. It doesn't always have to be with shouting but being firm is not out of order when safety matters.

If folks don't like the rules, or lack of rules, they should avoid those rides. When in a group situation (of almost any sort) order is usually superior to chaos.

[shovelhd]

I am an admitted a-hole. I have been the jerk trying to keep people in line for the betterment of the group more than once. It always comes down to leadership. You need one strong leader, a backup, and a few riders who are willing to sacrifice their goals for the group. Communication is essential. Having options available for dropping off is important and can help keep track of everyone.

[Ti Designs]

My point here is that having a core group of regulars who know the loop can be just as important to a tight group ride as having a good leader. Fact of the matter is, one person will always find it hard to keep 30 people in line. Just ask your local public school teacher.

That's the point of teaching the shop guys the route and how to ride in a group. Talking smack at the shop is working against me here, it's still a bit of a "my sausage is bigger than yours" ride.


As for people overestimating their own ability, who doesn't? When I turned 50 I got into this idea of actually testing what I can or can't do. I found I could do almost nothing as well as I thought I could - kinda depressing really. Recently I failed to make it over Lincoln gap using a 39x27, which was followed by lots of asking myself what would make me think I could do that? It's a question lots of people fail to ask themselves.

[bcroslin]

Has the word gotten out that this ride is a "fundamentals" ride? I know you said there's an "A" group but are people being coached throughout? Some people don't like being coached and most everyone doesn't like being barked at when they do something wrong. The word on the street might be that this a buzzkill ride.

With that said, the local shop here in St Pete has repeatedly tried to do a "skills" ride where ride etiquette, pace line rotation and echeloning can be taught and no one shows for the rides. The motivation for the ride was to teach the yahoos on the morning rides how to ride better and safer but everyone thinks they're an expert already. The shop has done a few training with power workshops and they're heavily attended so we were joking that we should just rename the skills ride the training with power ride and people might show.

[merlinmurph]

Any activity that involves a group of people needs to set expectations. Whether it's skiing, cycling, mt biking, hiking, etc., the expectations of the activity have to be set or else you're going to have a bunch of pissed off people.

I know people that have gone on ski trips together and had a miserable time because they weren't ski-compatible and false expectations were set. People ski for different reasons, people ski a mountain differently and have different goals when going skiing for a day. Put a bunch of people together with different ideas about skiing, and they won't last together.

The same goes for group rides, although I do very few group rides. People have all sorts of ideas about what a group ride is. The thing is, they're all basically right and it's the job of the leader to set what the goals of his specific group ride are. I think Ed gets right to the heart of the matter when he calls himself the a$$hole, because that's what it takes to run a successful group ride. Set the rules and expectations before you even start, and then be the a$$hole and enforce them. It's a tough job that takes a lot of patience, cunning, psychology and general people skills - a job I would be terrible at.

As for doing Lincoln Gap in a 39X27, the one time I did it, I was in my late 40's (more than 10 years ago) and was in a 39X27. It wasn't pretty but I made it without stopping. I'm not sure I could make it in my 34X29 right now.

[eippo1]

I was on the second one of these and it went pretty well (nobody disappeared), but Ed was doing an awful lot of work to round people up who would pop off the front and others fading off the back. And yes, I was guilty of doing both for short periods of time.

There was a sweeper to the ride, but perhaps we needed someone else up front so that Ed could be the lietenant and go up an down the line to keep everyone in line. Another thought is perhaps getting people used to close proximity by doing a controlled paceline. I think that Ed wants everyone to be more comfortable staying together before trying it, but perhaps some overt discipline might be needed. :bike:

[polyhistoric]

I think that part of the problem with group rides in general is that riders need to subvert individual goals for the pleasure of riding in a group. This goes for both the over and under prepared. Similarly, the ride needs to be correctly described - "skills building", "fun and conversational", occasional hammer-fest/town-line sprints...

We have yet to get any sort of true paceline for any of the RSC rides... much to the chagrin of many. Whether it is discomfort with the closeness or too much speed variation, I am not sure. Thus, the leaders end up pulling for the entire ride just to try to control pace and lead the way - you can't patrol bad behavior, teach skills, or evaluate group needs easily from that position. I like the idea of someone riding up and down the line helping, while others pull and sweep.

However, someone thinking they can keep up with a 16mph average for 34 miles when he/she will struggle will test the patience of even the most dedicated sweep. Group rides really need to stick to the advertised speeds - I also believe that there is a real need for more entry level rides in our area.

(The weekly "sausage ride" mentality is also what keeps a lot of women from joining the groups.)

[aramis]

The faster rides I do around here have no leaders and just exist.

Show up at a spot at a certain time, and the ride goes. Actually works pretty well, but it's a smaller area and everyone knows everyone it seems. Sure, every once in a while there is some strife, but overall not too bad.

[Bob Ross]

Group rides are about the group, not the individual - it's not about you. This is where it gets confusing for most people because they're thinking it's about the workout. A real group ride is about the group, not the workout, yet it can be a far better workout than riding solo.

QFT

I'm one of the leaders of a 12-week coaching series for the New York Cycle Club every Spring where we teach cooperative group cycling skills. And year after year, every year, the absolute hardest lesson to get across is ^^^this one. An astronomically small few get it right away. Some folks eventually come around to getting it. A lot come close to getting it, or seeming to get it, but then they (apparently) forget it. And a lot just never get it, ever.

Personally, I think one of the reasons it's so hard for folks to get is because there are so few examples of a genuinely altruistic activity in our lives.

You really need to completely sublimate your ego. To be a good group rider you need to not only sincerely care about how the entire group is riding, but also you need to ride in such a way that your caring is manifest...which is often antithetical to the way one might ride solo, especially if one were "looking to get a good workout."

The ones who get it are few and far between, but man do I love riding with them!

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I think that part of the problem with group rides in general is that riders need to subvert individual goals for the pleasure of riding in a group. This goes for both the over and under prepared. Similarly, the ride needs to be correctly described - "skills building", "fun and conversational", occasional hammer-fest/town-line sprints...

We have yet to get any sort of true paceline for any of the RSC rides... much to the chagrin of many. Whether it is discomfort with the closeness or too much speed variation, I am not sure. Thus, the leaders end up pulling for the entire ride just to try to control pace and lead the way - you can't patrol bad behavior, teach skills, or evaluate group needs easily from that position. I like the idea of someone riding up and down the line helping, while others pull and sweep.

However, someone thinking they can keep up with a 16mph average for 34 miles when he/she will struggle will test the patience of even the most dedicated sweep. Group rides really need to stick to the advertised speeds - I also believe that there is a real need for more entry level rides in our area.

(The weekly "sausage ride" mentality is also what keeps a lot of women from joining the groups.)

I'm among those who have been frustrated by the lack of skills on the RSC rides, and I've led one (fast group, Sunday). Guys riding on the yellow line, people gunning off the front, letting gaps open ... it all happens despite some very experienced riders and racers. My experience leading a ride reinforced the need for multiple leaders: one person can't police 20, period. What ended up working best was to have some regulars who know the route ride and can ride smooth sit at the front and be willing to yell at people doing something stupid. That freed me up to keep things in line everywhere else and help anyone who was struggling.

[bikingshearer]

From my somewhat limited experience, the best time to teach paceline technique to the uninitiated is at the end of a long ride when everyone is ready for the ride to be over. Doing it when headed into a headwind really encourages folks to do it right. Again, in my limited experience, this is when folks will listen to coaching because they are getting instant feedback in the form of easier riding and faster pace than they would be experiencing on their own. There used to be a great but now defunct century around here where the last 20 miles were flat and usually into a headwind. More than once I rounded up some relative newbies in that stretch and gave them their first paceline experience. Now these folks were grateful and willing to listen and got to be fairly decent at it pretty quickly, and more than one was "brought back from the dead" to finish the ride.

The point is: look for the times to teach skills that offer the best chance of having a wiling audience. Hot-shot wannabe racers may not be that audience in the first ten miles, but at the end of a long tiring ride might more willing to see the light.

Of course, this advice is worth exactly what you are paying for it . . . :rolleyes:

[weisan]

Ti-pal, would you mind putting me in touch with your counterpart in Austin, Texas?
Cuz' I want to be coached like you do, start with the basics.
Yeah, you are an a$$hole. Does it make you feel better now? :-)

[redir]

The faster rides I do around here have no leaders and just exist.

Show up at a spot at a certain time, and the ride goes. Actually works pretty well, but it's a smaller area and everyone knows everyone it seems. Sure, every once in a while there is some strife, but overall not too bad.

YEah that's the way it is here too that's why I don't understand what the issues are. If some one wants to go off the front then just let them <shrugs>.

[Bob Ross]

I don't understand what the issues are. If some one wants to go off the front then just let them <shrugs>.

A good friend & cycling mentor once summed this up perfectly for me. He said

"The guy who goes off the front isn't the idiot;
it's the guy riding second wheel who chases Guy #1 who's the idiot."

[mtechnica]

The trick is to ride with newbies one on one (or find someone else willing to ride with them) until they aren't slow and squirrely, then only invite known good riders to your ride and it will never be a problem. Trying to heard a flock of noobs while leading a group ride is dumb and dangerous IMO/IME

[mtechnica]

but Ed was doing an awful lot of work to round people up who would pop off the front and others fading off the back.

This is dangerous / pointless / frustrating; the rides should not have so much mixed ability unless you simply WANT problems.

[flydhest]

I started a group ride at a local shop. It eventually produced my team as a by-product, but the frustrations described are real. I gave it up b/c I became "too successful" in attracting people to ride and not successful enough in having enough help to control it and make it safe and a learning experience.

I agree with the sentiments expressed that a group ride is about the group. I would say if it is not a group ride, then it is just a bunch of people riding the same route at roughly the same time.

I gave it up. People still tell me how much they wish I was still leading the ride.

[josephr]

This is dangerous / pointless / frustrating; the rides should not have so much mixed ability unless you simply WANT problems.

something about this comment makes me think of basic manufacturing principles regarding cycle times, throughput, and bottle-necks. A riding group can really only go as fast as its weakest rider...unfortunately, lots of groups are led by 'stronger' riders. At some point, someone has to the a$$hole that instructs the stronger riders to take longer pulls and buddy up with others not so strong.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

The trick is to ride with newbies one on one (or find someone else willing to ride with them) until they aren't slow and squirrely, then only invite known good riders to your ride and it will never be a problem. Trying to heard a flock of noobs while leading a group ride is dumb and dangerous IMO/IME

Anyone who thinks that only noobs ride like schmucks on a group ride has never led one. There are plenty of seasoned racers who show up and ride like it's their first time in a bunch. Those guys are usually the worst, because if you yell at them for letting a gap open or drifting toward the yellow line, they can't take the criticism.

It's totally okay to attack off the front, if that's agreed upon in advance. But it's not okay when the ride starts with "let's stick together, ride 20ish on the flats, regroup after hills," and some jacka$$ attacks a downhill on rutted, potholed pavement. Sorry, he's just not following the program. But yes, the right response is to let him dangle out there in the wind, not jump after him and screw up the bunch.

[mtechnica]

Anyone who thinks that only noobs ride like schmucks on a group ride has never led one. There are plenty of seasoned racers who show up and ride like it's their first time in a bunch. Those guys are usually the worst, because if you yell at them for letting a gap open or drifting toward the yellow line, they can't take the criticism.



Where did I say only noobs ride like that? They are certainly much more likely to ride that way, my point is to not invite a rider whose ability is unknown and if they are new to group riding someone should ride with them first before sticking them in a group. As far as 'seasoned racers that show up' now who is the one talking about who has never led rides? lol, if I'm the ride leader I decide who comes, period. I can see how some people that lead club rides and such will be OK with letting randoms in on their ride (again, I am not OK with it); however allowing bad riders to come back is their own fault.

Yes I am a group ride nazi and it's because I've been crashed out and I simply don't enjoy riding in groups with people I don't like to ride with so it usually happens at most once.

oh and finally "I'm not the one complaining about my group rides" so ymmv :)

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Where did I say only noobs ride like that? They are certainly much more likely to ride that way, my point is to not invite a rider whose ability is unknown and if they are new to group riding someone should ride with them first before sticking them in a group. As far as 'seasoned racers that show up' now who is the one talking about who has never led rides? lol, if I'm the ride leader I decide who comes, period. I can see how some people that lead club rides and such will be OK with letting randoms in on their ride (again, I am not OK with it); however allowing bad riders to come back is their own fault.

I'm confused. You've described a club/team ride, not a shop ride (which was the OP's topic). So are you basically against the shop ride altogether? Because those aren't invite-only. Or are you saying it's an inherent problem with the shop rides, so caveat emptor?

[mtechnica]

I'm confused. You've described a club/team ride, not a shop ride (which was the OP's topic). So are you basically against the shop ride altogether? Because those aren't invite-only. Or are you saying it's an inherent problem with the shop rides, so caveat emptor?

If the shop ride is like the OP's ride I suppose I'm against it, I am saying that those problems are inherent problems with rides that basically anyone can, and is encouraged to, attend regardless of their speed, safety in a group, etc... and that at a certain point is becomes a fool's errand trying to control all of it especially with (like you said) random arrogant jackass roadies that are fast enough to keep up front mixing with good riders mixing with inexperienced people. Caveat emptor indeed.

[fiataccompli]

this all makes me appreciate all the more the 3 regular group rides that exist where I live. They're 'shop rides' affiliated with two different shops & the clubs/teams they are each associated with. One is very orderly with a double paceline for 55 miles, steady but respectful input/leadership where needed and a designated sprint point that is disclosed to new rider. One is a mixed A/B group that ought to (and probably does) provide a good platform for a rather sketchy B group to learn from the usual A riders. The last is the A version of that A/B group and it's a bit under 2 hours of tight rotating paceline at race pace intensity for the majority of the ride. The point his not lost on me that I would be overwhelmed at where to start leading any of these rides, so I appreciate that they happen. A few things that "work" or maybe make these work include...

- clearly identified by pace and as "drop" rides
- clearly (I think...it was to me & that's what I observe & share with new riders) identified warm up/cool down, sprint sections, and format (ie, double paceline, rotating paceline, etc.)
- a core group of riders who have been doing these rides for 15-20 years
- typical attendance by state & national champions, Olympic riders, the occasional pro or ex-pro & plenty of Cat2/3 riders who basically show how the ride is supposed to work by doing the ride (pace is pushed appropriately in some cases...but we know & expect that)
- confident, assertive, appropriately loud (but not inappropriately abusive or obnoxious) feedback from ride leaders or veterans of the rides
- this is a rather small town & most serious riders know each other so I think there idea of making the ride work, "good for the group", etc. may be a bit inherent.
- most of us have plenty of time to impress the hell out of ourselves on solo rides or go out with a select group if we want to keep attacking & pushing each other to oblivion.

[HenryA]

There's some "getting it" and some "not getting it" right here in this thread.

The only way you're going to have a good intact training group is for everyone in the group to agree to a particular conduct during the rides.

If its paceline practice, then EVERYONE has to agree in advance to SUBMIT TO THE GROUP rules . This means the leader (one leader) would tell the individuals in the group what to do and when to do it, and the individuals would have to follow directions.

This requires communication up front, well before riding out of the parking lot as a "group". It also requires jettisoning those people who won't submit to the group and leader. Tell 'em once and then send them away the next time. This is very regimented and for some "individuals" much too harsh for their delicate self esteem to survive. But when you finally sort the group down to the ones who want to play right it can be very rewarding and beneficial to all.

However, it will never work with a bunch of "individuals" who won't willingly submit to the group rules. And the leader will look like an asshole when he tries to direct "individuals" who did not submit to the group. The leader will not have to be perceived to be an asshole if its agreed on up front that all will follow his direction. But it still might help for him to be an asshole.;)

[Peter P.]

[QUOTE=Ti Designs;1606456]

Group rides are about the group...

It doesn't matter what the truth is, the rider joins the ride desiring to get something out of it for THEMSELVES. They don't attend rides excited and ready to participate in a group learning experience. They want a workout; they are on their own agenda. Anything else to them is counterproductive in their minds. The group ride is a quasi-competitive event in their minds and any other goal is wasted.

Cyclists listened to John Allis because he was accomplished in the sport and was viewed by the local cyclists as a leader because of his riding ability; any leadership skills would likely not have existed without the strength. It's natural although not always accurate, to presume this physical domination to produce a band of followers and worshippers. For example, how many of us would obey (insert name of pro cyclist here) if they lead weekly group rides?

I'm sure you have the technical skills and resume in the business to teach but without the cred that comes with performance on the stage, you just won't get the following. Sad but true, because I'm sure you have a lot to offer.

As a side note, I often wonder if this type of cyclist behavior is peculiar to the United States. Since cycling is steeped in European history, I get the impression that the local clubs' newer riders readily listen to and are led by the older cyclists who gain their respect and admiration merely from their longevity in the sport. I think American attitudes are different, and not necessarily better, which is exemplified by the lack of riding skills of most club and group riders.

[aramis]

YEah that's the way it is here too that's why I don't understand what the issues are. If some one wants to go off the front then just let them <shrugs>.

I totally agree. If someone jumps off the front and everyone is talking about their last doctors appointment or favorite place to get coffee then they go off the front and that's that. They will get caught or do the ride by themselves. If I'm in the mood and want a great workout I'll attack and chase every attack.

The only issue I've seen is one ride seems to attract a lot of people that sit in all day. I've seen it break apart when people get tired of dragging everyone around all ride, but sometimes it's fun to ride with just 3-5 people so no big deal.

[Louis]

I quickly loose interest in any activity, work or play, in which the leader has to act like an "@sshole" in order to get things to work properly.

But maybe that's just me, and it might explain why most of my rides are solo.

[Black Dog]

QFT

I'm one of the leaders of a 12-week coaching series for the New York Cycle Club every Spring where we teach cooperative group cycling skills. And year after year, every year, the absolute hardest lesson to get across is ^^^this one. An astronomically small few get it right away. Some folks eventually come around to getting it. A lot come close to getting it, or seeming to get it, but then they (apparently) forget it. And a lot just never get it, ever.

Personally, I think one of the reasons it's so hard for folks to get is because there are so few examples of a genuinely altruistic activity in our lives.

You really need to completely sublimate your ego. To be a good group rider you need to not only sincerely care about how the entire group is riding, but also you need to ride in such a way that your caring is manifest...which is often antithetical to the way one might ride solo, especially if one were "looking to get a good workout."

The ones who get it are few and far between, but man do I love riding with them!

This is so true. So very true. Plus a billion.

[Ti Designs]

You really need to completely sublimate your ego. To be a good group rider you need to not only sincerely care about how the entire group is riding, but also you need to ride in such a way that your caring is manifest...which is often antithetical to the way one might ride solo, especially if one were "looking to get a good workout."

This.

Now all I have to do is get this across to all of the riders in such a way that is stays in their minds, even wearing lycra and turning pedals...

[chiasticon]

a couple thoughts in addition to some of the already great ones mentioned:
1 - if you have riders of varying ability and it's a no drop ride, try the idea of letting the weaker riders pull when it's hard (headwind, uphill, etc). this keeps the group together. the problem here is that nobody wants to admit they're a weaker rider, but the stronger ones should be smart enough to pull off the front instead of hammering through the hard section, only to have to regroup a few minutes later (and making weaker riders even weaker in the process, having to fight the wind on their own).
2 - designate sprint points where it's ok to go all out if you want, and regroup at the end of them. this could be a local strava segment or a known tougher climb. this keeps the stronger riders happy but also gives the weaker ones a chance to see how they do when really pushing it.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I quickly loose interest in any activity, work or play, in which the leader has to act like an "@sshole" in order to get things to work properly.

But maybe that's just me, and it might explain why most of my rides are solo.

"have to" and "willing to" are different things and depend on whether people are behaving that day. And yes, if you don't like situations where someone may ride up alongside you or your buddy and tell them to ride differently, then group rides probably aren't for you.

[Ti Designs]

Cyclists listened to John Allis because he was accomplished in the sport and was viewed by the local cyclists as a leader because of his riding ability; any leadership skills would likely not have existed without the strength.

You must be thinking of a different John Allis. Few of the riders he coached knew about his racing career, and he certainly doesn't look the part.


It's natural although not always accurate, to presume this physical domination to produce a band of followers and worshippers. For example, how many of us would obey (insert name of pro cyclist here) if they lead weekly group rides?

By natural, you mean there will always be idiots... You can worship the pro rider who leads some group ride, he knows what it took to get himself to the pro ranks - none of that is going to be much help to you. I would much rather ride with the guy who produces good rider after good rider, who's going to be there every morning, week after week, year after year.

[UberBike]

I'm all for controlled rides. There are more then a few group rides in our town that are pretty much a free for all, including the so called beginners rides.

The one thing that has made our shop ride a joy is that the pace is controlled. It allows weaker riders to hang in the draft and not only learn but go further then they can on their own.

The attendance fluctuates as people become stronger and find faster rides, but they always return with new riders who are in that transition where they're now faster then the beginners but lack the skill to ride safely in the fast groups.

Just wish we had a few more strong riders willing to help draft and teach instead of trying to ramp the pace.

I wish you luck with your group ride. Any rider that leaves your group as a safer rider will make the next group they join a bit safer. Even if its just next to or beside them!

[weisan]

But maybe that's just me, and it might explain why most of my rides are solo.

Louis-pal, I can appreciate how it can be a lot easier with only one a$$hole in the ride when you are riding solo.
:eek:
:p

Caveat: In case anyone misundestaood, Louis and I are buddies, we used to ride together when I was living in St Louis.

I am sure Ti-pal who started this thread was well-meaning, and actually made some valid observations , maybe expressed some of his honest frustrations but like quite a number of posts here and in other threads talking about other topics of interests, folks can get carried away in some of the points they are making and perhaps over-reachng in their final conclusions.

I have always said this....swinging a leg over a bar to hop on a bike does not miraculously transform someone into a different person from who they are in the first place. They came as they were. You may try to put on a different persona or live out the fantasy of pretending to be some pro riders of your dreams, but ultimately you are who you are, whether on or off the bike, doesn't make any difference. And it SHOWS when you are riding your bike and interacting with other users of the road, be it cyclists or motorists or runners or pedestrians.

To be sure, one does not need to be a saint in order to be a group ride leader. Heck, you don't even need to be a naturally-born leader. Hell no! You just need to have some experience in your belt, hopefully picked up a few things from a good role-model, and lastly, a willingness to serve others. That's about it so let's not make this into something more than what it is.

In a sense, we can learn from anybody. And everyone have something to offer, that they can teach or impart to another. We can't possbly know everything or be interested in everything. So we need others who do. If you think you have to be somebody before you can offer a fellow cyclist some help or tip or make a suggestion that will improve his or her ride, i am afraid you are wrong. Again, that is over-reaching in one's conclusion. Obviously, the way you offer a suggestion is important too, don't be arrogant or come with a "I know it all" attitude. Don't snub someone just because they are new to the sports, young or a weaker rider. That reflects more on you than them. At the end of the day, we are a community of people engaging in an activity we all loved and we remember where we started, how we got to where are today, and know where we would like to be in the years ahead. :hello:

OK, that's all I have to say this morning, thanks for listening.

[Elefantino]

In the spring we started a group ride series company-wide. It's a beginner group road ride, meant to get people used to riding with others (and to get more people to come to the shop, obviously). For the most part, it's been a frustrating experience because there have been people who show up with tank MTBs, townie bikes with three-speed internals or 7-speed beach cruisers. And it's no-drop with one ride leader only, mostly me.

I have tried to vary the routes, but when I've tried to throw in a couple of teeny hills (and I mean teeny) some of the beginning beginners hop off and walk. Every. Time.

And despite trying to keep the group together it's impossible when some people can't top 9 mph on the flats. No, I am not making this up.

We've had a number of riders do a one-and-done with our ride because they don't like stopping every few miles or riding an I'm-almost-going-to-fall-over pace.

And yet here's the kicker: The slowpokes LOVE the ride. They keep coming back because of it. And that's the problem, and the reason the ride will not grow, because most people don't want to return after they see that it's so slow. We've toyed with the idea of starting an intermediate ride, but we don't have anyone to take over for the beginners because we're such a tiny staff. So, essentially, we started something that sucks.

I guess that makes me an a$$hole, too. But then reporters and editors who used to work for me in my prior life would never argue that point.

[jr59]

In the spring we started a group ride series company-wide. It's a beginner group road ride, meant to get people used to riding with others (and to get more people to come to the shop, obviously). For the most part, it's been a frustrating experience because there have been people who show up with tank MTBs, townie bikes with three-speed internals or 7-speed beach cruisers. And it's no-drop with one ride leader only, mostly me.

I have tried to vary the routes, but when I've tried to throw in a couple of teeny hills (and I mean teeny) some of the beginning beginners hop off and walk. Every. Time.

And despite trying to keep the group together it's impossible when some people can't top 9 mph on the flats. No, I am not making this up.

We've had a number of riders do a one-and-done with our ride because they don't like stopping every few miles or riding an I'm-almost-going-to-fall-over pace.

And yet here's the kicker: The slowpokes LOVE the ride. They keep coming back because of it. And that's the problem, and the reason the ride will not grow, because most people don't want to return after they see that it's so slow. We've toyed with the idea of starting an intermediate ride, but we don't have anyone to take over for the beginners because we're such a tiny staff. So, essentially, we started something that sucks.

I guess that makes me an a$$hole, too. But then reporters and editors who used to work for me in my prior life would never argue that point.

No worries, it's just a few more weeks until the time changes. Next summer you can try some different type of ride, and "maybe" one of the newbes will improve and want to take over

[weisan]

And yet here's the kicker: The slowpokes LOVE the ride. They keep coming back because of it.

Elephant-pal, that's my favorite part of your post.
You have created a group ride for the Hobbits.:D

Like JR-pal said, it's ok. You have brought enjoyment to a few, and perhaps save a couple of lives. Who knows, for some people, that might be the only real exercise they get other than sex.

[aramis]

In the spring we started a group ride series company-wide. It's a beginner group road ride, meant to get people used to riding with others (and to get more people to come to the shop, obviously). For the most part, it's been a frustrating experience because there have been people who show up with tank MTBs, townie bikes with three-speed internals or 7-speed beach cruisers. And it's no-drop with one ride leader only, mostly me.

I have tried to vary the routes, but when I've tried to throw in a couple of teeny hills (and I mean teeny) some of the beginning beginners hop off and walk. Every. Time.

And despite trying to keep the group together it's impossible when some people can't top 9 mph on the flats. No, I am not making this up.

We've had a number of riders do a one-and-done with our ride because they don't like stopping every few miles or riding an I'm-almost-going-to-fall-over pace.

And yet here's the kicker: The slowpokes LOVE the ride. They keep coming back because of it. And that's the problem, and the reason the ride will not grow, because most people don't want to return after they see that it's so slow. We've toyed with the idea of starting an intermediate ride, but we don't have anyone to take over for the beginners because we're such a tiny staff. So, essentially, we started something that sucks.

I guess that makes me an a$$hole, too. But then reporters and editors who used to work for me in my prior life would never argue that point.

That sounds really, really unfun.

You should just have re-groups at certain points and hand out cue-sheets maybe? I mean there is beginner rides, but that sounds like a cycling for starters class, not a ride.

[Bob Ross]

So, essentially, we started something that sucks.

I guess that makes me an a$$hole, too.


The only way that would make you an asshole is if you think it sucks because it is slow. :)


Leading slow rides, especially slow rides made up of neophyte cyclists, is a whole 'nother level of artistry and skill and (especially) patience. Lord knows I'm no good at it. But my wife -- who is a very accomplished experienced A-level group rider -- is astonishingly good at leading C-level rides. Not because she is strong, or skilled, or experienced, or even necessarily patient...but simply because she doesn't have high expectations from beginners.

[TimD]

I'm delighted to be reading all this.

My local morning ride has become a victim of its own success. Friends invited friends invited friends and co-workers, ad nauseum. It is out of control. I've lost count of the number of times this summer I've been truly frightened in the paceline (or what resembles a paceline).

Today we had a self-described "Cat 3 Master" guest rider go to the front, raise the pace 5 MPH, and further accelerate downhill through a stop sign. All before the end of the warmup section. Of course three guys went with him and this massively gapped the remaining 10 or so. I was in front of the second group, coasting downhill at 30 MPH, and immediately sat up.

I've raised my concerns to what I would consider "the regulars" but so far I have not achieved consensus to drive a change. I'm about done with this particular ride as a result, which is a shame bc. I've been doing it for years and really enjoy many of the clued-in folks who regularly participate. Among the solutions I've considered include starting a new, invite-only ride with clearly defined rules, as has been suggested here.

This discussion has been helpful, so thanks.

[flydhest]

I'm delighted to be reading all this.



My local morning ride has become a victim of its own success. Friends invited friends invited friends and co-workers, ad nauseum. It is out of control. I've lost count of the number of times this summer I've been truly frightened in the paceline (or what resembles a paceline).



Today we had a self-described "Cat 3 Master" guest rider go to the front, raise the pace 5 MPH, and further accelerate downhill through a stop sign. All before the end of the warmup section. Of course three guys went with him and this massively gapped the remaining 10 or so. I was in front of the second group, coasting downhill at 30 MPH, and immediately sat up.



I've raised my concerns to what I would consider "the regulars" but so far I have not achieved consensus to drive a change. I'm about done with this particular ride as a result, which is a shame bc. I've been doing it for years and really enjoy many of the clued-in folks who regularly participate. Among the solutions I've considered include starting a new, invite-only ride with clearly defined rules, as has been suggested here.



This discussion has been helpful, so thanks.


I regularly would teach folks on my ride to let the macho dudes who up the pace gap the group. I would often get to the front and hold back the pace (to where we had been) and use it as a teachable moment.

Letting them go and making it clear to all why is a helpful technique.

[Elefantino]

Average for today's ride: 8.7 mph for 11 miles. I about fell over, asleep, several times. Riders loved it: "See you next Saturday!" ... Shoot me now.

[aramis]

Average for today's ride: 8.7 mph for 11 miles. I about fell over, asleep, several times. Riders loved it: "See you next Saturday!" ... Shoot me now.

ouch. Well at least it the ride was only a little over an hour and 15 minutes. :p

[weisan]

Average for today's ride: 8.7 mph for 11 miles. I about fell over, asleep, several times. Riders loved it: "See you next Saturday!" ... Shoot me now.
Ele-pal...is there anyone in the group that you can disciple to take over or share leadership responsibilities?
Thank you for bearing with the weak.

[oldpotatoe]

Average for today's ride: 8.7 mph for 11 miles. I about fell over, asleep, several times. Riders loved it: "See you next Saturday!" ... Shoot me now.

makes me laugh..