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Bruce K
08-16-2014, 07:05 PM
I have temporarily deleted the thread until we can decide whether it was appropriate to list the OP's real name and if not, how to delete the many references

The thread will be re-opened shortly

BK

echelon_john
08-16-2014, 07:08 PM
Real names are cool.

Bruce K
08-16-2014, 07:10 PM
Maybe but we were messaged by members with concerns (not Raygunner)

BK

pbarry
08-16-2014, 07:19 PM
I found it interesting that IR mentioned it.

nighthawk
08-16-2014, 07:21 PM
It seemed inappropriate to me.

But I'm just a casual observer.

CunegoFan
08-16-2014, 07:21 PM
It seems to me that if someone if going to call out somebody else by name then his actual name should be on the complaint. Why should only one party get anonymity?

pbarry
08-16-2014, 07:31 PM
Because one is a "public figure" and doing business under their own name. The other is a 'private" individual seeking to buy a product from the first.

Admiral Ackbar
08-16-2014, 07:36 PM
lol.

Bruce K
08-16-2014, 07:38 PM
That us our dilemma - I don't think any business would publish a customer list or a customer name without repercussions

Again, we hope to re-open the thread as soon as we can get this issue resolved

BK

echelon_john
08-16-2014, 07:56 PM
Facebook does it millions of times per hour.

You mods rock, btw. Thanks for all you do to keep this one of the more intelligent, civil venues on the Internet. Not an easy task.

bcroslin
08-16-2014, 07:59 PM
facebook does it millions of times per hour.

You mods rock, btw. Thanks for all you do to keep this one of the more intelligent, civil venues on the internet. Not an easy task.

+1

David Kirk
08-16-2014, 08:24 PM
I use my real name and somehow assumed that all you guys did too but that your parents had a warped sense of humor.

Thanks mods for erring on the side of caution.


dave

Burnette
08-16-2014, 08:25 PM
Mad Props to the Mods here, others could learn from you, great job.
Believe it or not, Mods can be the problem on other boards as much as the trolls. You guys do a standup job here.
This is turning into my go spot for bike stuff.

93legendti
08-16-2014, 08:27 PM
Thanks to all the mods for their hard work.

pbarry
08-16-2014, 08:31 PM
..

nighthawk
08-16-2014, 08:33 PM
I use my real name and somehow assumed that all you guys did too but that your parents had a warped sense of humor.

Thanks mods for erring on the side of caution.


dave

I wish my parents were that cool.

Keith A
08-16-2014, 08:46 PM
Thanks guys! We really do strive to find a balance between letting things run it's course without intervention and stepping to put out the fires.

I will say that you guys (and girls) do a great job of keeping things civil. I'm am continuously impressed how often a forum member will step in and get a discussion back on track when it starts heading the wrong way. Thank you!

AngryScientist
08-16-2014, 08:53 PM
i'm also happy that the original thread went so well really. the overwhelming majority of posters were very supportive of RayG and a bad situation he wound up in.

i personally think its important to re-open that thread so it's preserved in the archives. we're working on that.

brando
08-16-2014, 08:54 PM
i'm also happy that the original thread went so well really. the overwhelming majority of posters were very supportive of RayG and a bad situation he wound up in.

i personally think its important to re-open that thread so it's preserved in the archives. we're working on that.

Yup + 1

Louis
08-16-2014, 09:10 PM
I realize this isn't a democracy, but here are my $0.02:

If someone's going to take complain in an open forum about the business practices and ethics of an individual and identify that person by name, a guarantee of anonymity for the complainant is a dangerous thing.

I agree it would have been better for the builder to refer to his customer by his first name only, but if you're going to take shots at folks (granted in this case it was done in what certainly seemed to be an even-handed and gentlemanly manner) the ability to hide behind a screen name is an invitation to abuse.

pbarry
08-16-2014, 09:17 PM
I realize this isn't a democracy, but here are my $0.02:

If someone's going to take complain in an open forum about the business practices and ethics of an individual and identify that person by name, a guarantee of anonymity for the complainant is a dangerous thing.

I agree it would have been better for the builder to refer to his customer by his first name only, but if you're going to take shots at folks (granted in this case it was done in what certainly seemed to be an even-handed and gentlemanly manner) the ability to hide behind a screen name is an invitation to abuse.

No one "took a shot". Both parties agreed on the facts.

Can someone "hide" behind the "new" business? Moving forward and all that..

gasman
08-16-2014, 09:18 PM
I realize this isn't a democracy, but here are my $0.02:

If someone's going to take complain in an open forum about the business practices and ethics of an individual and identify that person by name, a guarantee of anonymity for the complainant is a dangerous thing.

I agree it would have been better for the builder to refer to his customer by his first name only, but if you're going to take shots at folks (granted in this case it was done in what certainly seemed to be an even-handed and gentlemanly manner) the ability to hide behind a screen name is an invitation to abuse.
Hiding behind a screen name can make some abusive but that was not the case in Ray's thread. We won't tolerate abusive behavior as you know.

josephr
08-16-2014, 09:24 PM
just my .02 --- never really heard of IR before this thread and only knew of Breadwinner bikes cause they got a special mention in a Bicycling issue in the past year (yes, I read that drivel). In this situation though, I don't think it'd be any different for RayG to call out Specialized or Moots or K.Bedford or Eriksen.
anyway....carry on mods, carry on...ya'll do great work.
Joe

pbarry
08-16-2014, 09:27 PM
http://theelitebicycle.com/2013/10/25/the-ira-ryan-cycling-experience-2/

JWDR
08-17-2014, 12:06 AM
i personally think its important to re-open that thread so it's preserved in the archives. we're working on that.

I concur

fogrider
08-17-2014, 01:02 AM
I always think of Ann Rand when I hear Ira Ryan, but that's just me. Just want to say that it's an important story and it seemed to have been told clearly and without malice.

Waldo
08-17-2014, 02:49 AM
What exactly is the problem with RG telling the truth about his experience? It's never an issue for moderators when we post about positive experiences with identified builders. Same should be the case for negative experiences as well.

velotrack
08-17-2014, 03:37 AM
What exactly is the problem with RG telling the truth about his experience? It's never an issue for moderators when we post about positive experiences with identified builders. Same should be the case for negative experiences as well.

I believe it was the other way around they are primarily referring to.

Bruce K
08-17-2014, 04:40 AM
Thanks guys.

If a member chooses to use their real name, that is their choice. If someone uses their real name as part of a business it's again, their choice.

It's the posting of someone's private information (in this case their real name), without their consent that cross the line of forum rules.

In general we try not to edit content. We either ask the poster of the content that needs editing or removal to do so, or, we delete whole posts as rules violations/inappropriate.

In this case, we do not want to delete the whole post from Ira and the subsequent posts that quoted it. But we haven't determined the best way to deal with this just yet.

Again, we want this thread to be visible for future reference. We just need to figure out how to do that.

BK

soulspinner
08-17-2014, 06:26 AM
Enlightening.

pdmtong
08-17-2014, 06:54 AM
The posting of people's real names happens in other threads. If mods are going to moderate the Ira thread that way there are others waiting for the same treatment. A bit if a sticky one here. You could simply edit that one thread and rock on. The info and conversation therein is worth preserving but believe me in a short time those electrons are in the last like so many other threads here. That is if course until we have new members dreading old threads to get their classified eligibility post count above minimum threshold

1centaur
08-17-2014, 07:44 AM
Whatever the outcome of the mods' star chamber debate, it seems to me the result needs to be policy (a revision/addition to existing and posted with notification to the rest of us) or it needs to be nothing; it can't be a one-time thing or the mods would be stuck with vague emotions and who's on duty and meta-threads about outcomes that would suck the wind out of the atmosphere.

So if this example is worthy of a policy change, then start the debate from the general rather than the specific. If you can't agree on a policy, then doing nothing and resurrecting the thread for posterity (I found it interesting and positive as to the maturity of most people's approach) would be a perfectly reasonable outcome.

shovelhd
08-17-2014, 08:01 AM
The mods here do a great job.

This is not a situation where one person chooses to use their real name and reveals the other party's real name. Ira Ryan is not only the guys name, it is his brand. One could say that the brand name is more pertinent in this instance. So what if Specialized was receiving commentary on this forum and someone from Specialized outed Ray G's real name? How would you feel about that?

Bruce K
08-17-2014, 08:34 AM
If you check the user agreement, the issue we are discussing is already addressed there

We just need to determine, based on PMs we received, and by reviewing the content in question, whether this crossed the line of the user agreement.

If it did we will address it. If it didn't, then it didn't

Either way it is close. Either way the thread will be back (though maybe with a tweak or two)

BK

fuzzalow
08-17-2014, 08:51 AM
Ira Ryan does not have the right to publicly divulge the real name of his client without his client's expressed permission to do so. To do this is professionally unethical and in breach of a client's confidentiality. As a business, Ira Ryan functions in a public sphere however a client undertaking a business transaction with Ira Ryan does not likewise submit himself to the same transparency expected from a publicly operating business concern.

Ira Ryan functioned as a public entity in soliciting business from the public under his own name and representation as a builder of custom bicycles business for profit. Any accountability of Ira Ryan as a business by definition is equally attributable to Ira Ryan the person as he was a sole proprietor and owner operation. His dealings as a business are publically accountable as would be any business open to the public.

A client does not enter into a public relationship is choosing to deal with Ira Ryan in seeking a bicycle frame to be built. It is confidential for example as to the client's name, address, phone & email information, bank or credit card information and method of payment. The relationship exists between Ira Ryan and his client alone. It is solely the client's privilege to reveal as much or as little of of himself as he wishes. And it is correct and appropriate for the client to speak as freely as he wishes concerning the nature and results of the product and/or services received as a direct consequence of payment given in contract for a given commission.

The conduct of this contract requires adherence to professional ethics and mutual respect between the parties. The client's privacy is maintained and respected throughout and afterwards. Likewise, the client maintains confidentiality for any trade secrets, methods or techniques that he may encounter as a consequence of working together with a builder in the successful completion of the client's project with said builder. The builder is fully entitled to reciprocal confidentiality and discretion from the client in the protection of any of his proprietary commercial properties.

It is my opinion the Ira Ryan purposely and willfully reneged his obligation to client confidentiality in naming raygunner's real name in his post. Ostensibly done as a means of recompense and retribution directed at raygunner. There was no call or purpose to naming names but it was something of value possesed by Ira Ryan that could be used to injure or inconvenience raygunner.

IMO Ira Ryan's professional conduct for himself and especially as seen in the course of this thread was both futile and pathetic. There was never any semblance of professional conduct, only acts of self interest done irrespective as to ethics or professionalism. The only description of Ira Ryan's conduct I could bring to mind was execrable.

phcollard
08-17-2014, 08:59 AM
... Either way the thread will be back (though maybe with a tweak or two)

I do hope so. Anybody considering buying an IR and looking up things on Google has the right to read Ray's story.

BTW thanks mods and Keith for your excellent work!

jr59
08-17-2014, 09:00 AM
I would suggest consulting your legal counsel over this. As I understand this, and I have asked mine before, the changing of posts, opens up the potential of legal liability.

Whatever the decision, I'm sure it will be for the best.

Bruce K
08-17-2014, 09:03 AM
Which is why WE don't change them.

We either ask the poster to change it or we delete it due to a violation of the Forum User Agreement.

BK

djg21
08-17-2014, 09:06 AM
The easy answer may be to ask Raygunner what he would prefer.

I assume that the posting of his name was an oversight by a new member unfamiliar with the rules. And kudos to the mods for protecting us. But in this instance, if Raygunner does not object, maybe leave the thread as is. If he wants his name removed, then the post can be edited by the poster or removed.

But in either case, maybe it should be closed now that Raygunner is having his deposit refunded and presumably, Ira/Breadwinner will be working on his business model to avoid future failures of this sort.

I'm glad thus seems to have all worked out, and hope BW can get things going.

rugbysecondrow
08-17-2014, 09:10 AM
This makes sense, but does the airing of the business publicly no longer make it a private matter?

Sticky situation, looks like it is being handled with respect to all parties. Kudos.



Ira Ryan does not have the right to publicly divulge the real name of his client without his client's expressed permission to do so. To do this is professionally unethical and in breach of a client's confidentiality. As a business, Ira Ryan functions in a public sphere however a client undertaking a business transaction with Ira Ryan does not likewise submit himself to the same transparency expected from a publicly operating business concern.

Ira Ryan functioned as a public entity in soliciting business from the public under his own name and representation as a builder of custom bicycles business for profit. Any accountability of Ira Ryan as a business by definition is equally attributable to Ira Ryan the person as he was a sole proprietor and owner operation. His dealings as a business are publically accountable as would be any business open to the public.

A client does not enter into a public relationship is choosing to deal with Ira Ryan in seeking a bicycle frame to be built. It is confidential for example as to the client's name, address, phone & email information, bank or credit card information and method of payment. The relationship exists between Ira Ryan and his client alone. It is solely the client's privilege to reveal as much or as little of of himself as he wishes. And it is correct and appropriate for the client to speak as freely as he wishes concerning the nature and results of the product and/or services received as a direct consequence of payment given in contract for a given commission.

The conduct of this contract requires adherence to professional ethics and mutual respect between the parties. The client's privacy is maintained and respected throughout and afterwards. Likewise, the client maintains confidentiality for any trade secrets, methods or techniques that he may encounter as a consequence of working together with a builder in the successful completion of the client's project with said builder. The builder is fully entitled to reciprocal confidentiality and discretion from the client in the protection of any of his proprietary commercial properties.

It is my opinion the Ira Ryan purposely and willfully reneged his obligation to client confidentiality in naming raygunner's real name in his post. Ostensibly done as a means of recompense and retribution directed at raygunner. There was no call or purpose to naming names but it was something of value possesed by Ira Ryan that could be used to injure or inconvenience raygunner.

IMO Ira Ryan's professional conduct for himself and especially as seen in the course of this thread was both futile and pathetic. There was never any semblance of professional conduct, only acts of self interest done irrespective as to ethics or professionalism. The only description of Ira Ryan's conduct I could bring to mind was execrable.

velomonkey
08-17-2014, 09:11 AM
First, really great job by the mods - it's your hard work that makes this place so great. Your work does not go unnoticed.

Should you change the posts to take out the raygun's name that was posted by someone else is not changing substantially changing anything so much so you need to seek legal council.

This whole thing is an exercise in basic business acumen. And from my vantage point nothing raygun posted was vindictive.

Keep up the great work and thanks!!!!!

fuzzalow
08-17-2014, 09:12 AM
Which is why WE don't change them.

We either ask the poster to change it or we delete it due to a violation of the Forum User Agreement.

BK

I did not know that. Then I have to hand it to Ira Ryan's ability to back-door expurgate this thread. Doing this makes him much cleverer than I thought.

joosttx
08-17-2014, 09:16 AM
First, really great job by the mods - it's your hard work that makes this place so great. Your work does not go unnoticed.

Should you change the posts to take out the raygun's name that was posted by someone else is not changing substantially changing anything so much so you need to seek legal council.

This whole thing is an exercise in basic business acumen. And from my vantage point nothing raygun posted was vindictive.

Keep up the great work and thanks!!!!!

I liken it to NBC "bleeping" curse words.

tuxbailey
08-17-2014, 09:19 AM
The easy answer may be to ask Raygunner what he would prefer.

I assume that the posting of his name was an oversight by a new member unfamiliar with the rules. And kudos to the mods for protecting us. But in this instance, if Raygunner does not object, maybe leave the thread as is. If he wants his name removed, then the post can be edited by the poster or removed.

But in either case, maybe it should be closed now that Raygunner is having his deposit refunded and presumably, Ira/Breadwinner will be working on his business model to avoid future failures of this sort.

I'm glad thus seems to have all worked out, and hope BW can get things going.


Can any provide a TL;DR for the conclusion of the deleted thread? I was following it and then it was gone. Not interested in names but want to know how IR "resolved" the issue and how he is changing his business plan to address similar problems.

Although it is low to breach his client's confidentiality, which kind of validate RG's opinion on his business practice/ethics (or the lack of thereof.)

velomonkey
08-17-2014, 09:30 AM
But in either case, maybe it should be closed now that Raygunner is having his deposit refunded and presumably, Ira/Breadwinner will be working on his business model to avoid future failures of this sort.

I'm glad thus seems to have all worked out, and hope BW can get things going.

Not sure I'd say it worked out: the whole point of the original post was that customer service was poor, communication was poor, meeting timelines was poor - the end result for raygun was that after numerous tries to get a handle on a situation that was clearly out of whack he walked - I'd say he was borderline cornered into it - and lost $500.

Then the post occurs and only because of the post he got his $500 back. Ergo: because of said post he got, or I guess will, get the money back: he still lost out on everything else and doesn't have the bike he initially wanted and still had to go through all the poor service and communication.

Now if the tread is deleted because someone got their deposit back because of the thread - that is wielding power you might not want to play with. The $500 deposit, in my view, was only symptom of a much larger issue that was never fully cured.

Rusty Luggs
08-17-2014, 09:49 AM
Never even saw the thread, but personally I donít need to. Regardless of what was said, a business ďoutingĒ a client in a public forum tells me everything I need to know about that business. Most businesses and people are way smarter than that. A few obviously are not.

I have found that the manner in which a business chooses to deal with a customer dispute is far more important than the ultimate resolution of that dispute. And I usually weigh that more than the perceived quality of the product.

I recently decided not to deal with a car dealership simply based on reading responses to a few Better Business Bureau complaints (membership in which they were proud to proclaim). I found the tone of their responses argumentative and inappropriate, even if the nature of the complaints was not so major, or maybe not even fair.

I owe that business NOTHING Ė I donít have to give them a chance to earn my trust, I donít need to be fair and impartial or even reasonable when I decide to do business with them or not. They will never know who I am or why they didnít get my business, and I donít owe them an explanation.

djg21
08-17-2014, 09:55 AM
Not sure I'd say it worked out: the whole point of the original post was that customer service was poor, communication was poor, meeting timelines was poor - the end result for raygun was that after numerous tries to get a handle on a situation that was clearly out of whack he walked - I'd say he was borderline cornered into it - and lost $500.

Then the post occurs and only because of the post he got his $500 back. Ergo: because of said post he got, or I guess will, get the money back: he still lost out on everything else and doesn't have the bike he initially wanted and still had to go through all the poor service and communication.

Now if the tread is deleted because someone got their deposit back because of the thread - that is wielding power you might not want to play with. The $500 deposit, in my view, was only symptom of a much larger issue that was never fully cured.

The thread was deleted because personal identifying information was included in some of the posts; the Forum/Mods cannot exercise editorial control over the content of posts; and there apparently is a concern that by removing the name/personal information, the Forum could be perceived as exercising editorial control.

My understanding is that after the issue of the personal information has been resolved, perhaps by having the offending messages edited by the original posters, the threads will be restored.

Regarding Raygunner's dust-up with Ira, the resolution is the best that could have been hoped for. Raygunner got a full refund and can go to any of the many other custom builders to get a frame built. At worst, he didn't have his custom bike to ride for a period after the initially promised delivery date. I'm sure he had another bike to ride in the meanwhile.

Ira will have to deal with any consequences, and perhaps will be more conscientious about his commitments and responsive to his customers in the future. Hopefully he will overcome this issue.

jr59
08-17-2014, 09:55 AM
I have found that the manner in which a business chooses to deal with a customer dispute is far more important than the ultimate resolution of that dispute. And I usually weigh that more than the perceived quality of the product.

.

Spoken for truth here!

Problems come up, and mistakes are made. It's how people handle them that sets them apart.

christian
08-17-2014, 10:09 AM
Nvm.

bcroslin
08-17-2014, 10:26 AM
Just asking to make sure it's clear: is Raygunner getting the $500 deposit back?

thegunner
08-17-2014, 10:28 AM
I use my real name and somehow assumed that all you guys did too but that your parents had a warped sense of humor.

dave

my parents wanted me to be a cowboy i guess... i've SERIOUSLY let them down.

josephr
08-17-2014, 10:39 AM
my parents wanted me to be a cowboy i guess... i've SERIOUSLY let them down.

but you make up for it by riding really, really fast, eh?

chiasticon
08-17-2014, 11:03 AM
for the record, i found the thread informative. i haven't seen it for a few days though and i would like to see where it went; i.e. what ira had to say. didn't sound like anything negative came from it, other than mentioning full name publicly, so it would be great to have it preserved for prosperity. especially in case anyone googles "ira ryan frame buying experience" or whatever. they should be able to see what they're buying in to. not to necessarily dissuade anyone, but just to say "hey look, this one guy had a really hard time."

raygunner
08-17-2014, 11:03 AM
So I'm still a little unsure about what happened to the thread.

I'd like to express my appreciation to the mods. I never expected my post to garner such responses. While I also appreciate the support and advice I was very disheartened to hear that my posting was "revenge". I did not mean IR any ill will, especially to the Breadwinner firm since I had no dealing with that firm.

But bottom line, he's in a business. My complaints were directly related to the business at hand. While some posters related that my criticism in my OP (and other comments) would be hurting his business, that was something I was not aiming to do. This is just one man's experience. I'm sure he has many satisfied customers. But by conducting business in this manner isn't he just shooting himself in the foot?

The dude seems like he's got a great life and he seems like he makes some great bikes. Plus I've heard he's FAST! I'm a closet stalker of his posts on social media. Rides some great bikes, lives in Portland, looks like he has alot of fun. When I plunked down a deposit I wanted a bike from him and I was also buying into the image associated with him. And yes, there was a little of the Rapha halo around that image. :rolleyes:

I had no motive when making the post. IR and me concluded business back in May. This is now late August. He didn't want to deliver. Fine, that's on him. I didn't have to threaten/cajole/beg, at anytime in the process or thereafter, to be respected as a customer.

But to be clear, this isn't about the money. At least for me. Though I'm not rich by any stretch.

The only thing, and I summed this up in my original post, was that I only wished for my time back. I wish I had endless rides & great experiences on a bike of his (or another).

If IR feels the need to fully refund my money, that's an amazing gesture of goodwill. But to be clear, I've never asked for such.

raygunner
08-17-2014, 11:11 AM
PS - The mods asked me about the original post & whether it should be reopened & locked. I'm still not sure.

bcroslin
08-17-2014, 11:22 AM
Ray, the next time I go sideways in anger and start to react I'm going to think about how amazingly restrained you've been throughout this entire ordeal. At the first delay and IR's shuttering of his operation I would have asked for my deposit back. Had he said no I would have gone thermonuclear on social media and you'd be able to see the crater from space.

I am in awe of your civility and restraint.

velomonkey
08-17-2014, 11:24 AM
Look, I don't know Raygunner and I kind of fell into the original thread and then enjoyed watching it evolve.

As one of many I can only offer my take - Raygunner went above and beyond to ensure he wasn't disparaging breadwinner and that he thought Ira was a great guy. Well above and beyond, because in my view Breadwinner is half Ira and Raygunner's experience with Ira would probably be the same at breadwinner. How anyone can take deposits on a bike for one company - launch another company and take deposits and then work at both companies and not expect to have to work twice as hard is beyond me. Issues come up and how Ira handled it is indicative of any business he is associated with. He made his bed and he needs to sleep in it.

The people who said this was a revenge post were far and few. Most got information that was useful and relevant and said so. People who said it was revenge were seeing what they wanted to see and not reading the post for what is was: one person's experience that wasn't refuted by said company.

54ny77
08-17-2014, 11:45 AM
i think it's a bummer that the thread was closed. just delete the personal info and re-post it.

enough of this omerta about lousy handbuilt framebuilder experiences. people should know what they're getting into, open the kimono about how good, and bad, some builder experiences are. it's no surprise that there are endless accolades for those who deliver product as expected, and promised.

consider: how much trash talk and bashing to people do here and elsewhere about mass-produced frames? heck, look at what happens when serotta threads happen!

to handle differently that vs. the cottage industry of framebuilders is a double standard.

pbarry
08-17-2014, 11:47 AM
^^ Well said.

William
08-17-2014, 12:12 PM
i think it's a bummer that the thread was closed. just delete the personal info and re-post it.

enough of this omerta about lousy handbuilt framebuilder experiences. people should know what they're getting into, open the kimono about how good, and bad, some builder experiences are. it's no surprise that there are endless accolades for those who deliver product as expected, and promised.

consider: how much trash talk and bashing to people do here and elsewhere about mass-produced frames? heck, look at what happens when serotta threads happen!

to handle differently that vs. the cottage industry of framebuilders is a double standard.


Folks, it will be brought back. We just have one issue to clarify first. Stay tuned.




William

gasman
08-17-2014, 12:40 PM
Give us until tomorrow.

We are trying to do the right thing by all parties.

wooly
08-17-2014, 12:51 PM
i think it's a bummer that the thread was closed. just delete the personal info and re-post it.

enough of this omerta about lousy handbuilt framebuilder experiences. people should know what they're getting into, open the kimono about how good, and bad, some builder experiences are. it's no surprise that there are endless accolades for those who deliver product as expected, and promised.

consider: how much trash talk and bashing to people do here and elsewhere about mass-produced frames? heck, look at what happens when serotta threads happen!

to handle differently that vs. the cottage industry of framebuilders is a double standard.

First, ever since we split from Serotta, we've been blessed that our mods have taken it upon themselves to keep this place going, and going in such a positive trajectory. - Thank you.

Second. I have to +1000 54ny77's comment. I understand the thread will be brought back and locked and this place will be the better for it.

holliscx
08-17-2014, 01:24 PM
54ny77 gets it

Louis
08-17-2014, 01:25 PM
This makes sense, but does the airing of the business publicly no longer make it a private matter?

Agreed - the OP outed himself when he chose to start his thread.

Again, he did it in an honest and responsible manner, but just because he did doesn't mean every one who chooses to air that type of dirty laundry in public will.

Do we want the forum to be used as a platform for anonymous attacks, some of which may be done with questionable motives, on cycling-related businesses?

pbarry
08-17-2014, 02:08 PM
Agreed - the OP outed himself when he chose to start his thread.

Again, he did it in an honest and responsible manner, but just because he did doesn't mean every one who chooses to air that type of dirty laundry in public will.

Do we want the forum to be used as a platform for anonymous attacks, some of which may be done with questionable motives, on cycling-related businesses?

The downside of the internet, if you think the worst of folks. ;) Big online retailers have a "customer review" section for products they sell. Most people give seemingly honest feedback. B&H has a credit incentive to encourage customers to post about their recent purchases.

I bought a pair of Danner boots last year, and they did not hold up well. No warranty support from the retailer after 3 months, and the shipping cost to Danner for repair was more dear than getting them repaired on my dime locally. To their credit, the Danner site actually posts the negative reviews.

Information is a good thing.

FlashUNC
08-17-2014, 02:10 PM
Sunlight, the best disinfectant.

professerr
08-17-2014, 03:29 PM
Mods, I think the actions you've taken here are thoughtful and appropriate.

I was really surprised that Ira Ryan ďoutedĒ the customerís name in the deleted thread, and I bet he regrets that now. I had great sympathy for Ryan -- it can be really unfair the way the web can amplify the voice of one unhappy customer disproportionate to the harm done, regardless of where the fault lay. But revealing the name of the customer gained Ryan little (he conceded the customerís version was accurate after all), and could have caused the customer harm: Ryan didnít just reveal the name of a customer he had a dispute with, he also revealed the pseudonym of a person who has been posting here with the expectation that his posts would be reasonably (though obviously not absolutely -- I know this is the web) anonymous. I donít recall any of Raygunnerís posts, but thereís lots of stuff posted here that people might like to keep reasonably anonymous for all sorts of reasons.

I donít mean to go too far here: there is no stand-alone duty of confidentiality between a customer and a frame maker, unless it is spelled out somewhere in a contract that Iím not aware of (pretty unlikely). Weíre not talking attorney/client or doctor/patient. But thatís a separate issue from the forumís policy on disclosing a posterís identity, which Ryan may have violated and, if so, could created some small exposure for himself, not to mention the continuing awful PR.

This web stuff is tricky.

LJohnny
08-17-2014, 04:11 PM
In the feedback area perhaps it may be very useful to have a "sticky" with frame builder experiences, good and bad.
That way we, as we think about selecting a builder we could do a quick check on a single thread in the feedback area. I for one would be really interested in having that resource for the future.

Just a thought :)

Cornfed
08-17-2014, 04:54 PM
consider: how much trash talk and bashing to people do here and elsewhere about mass-produced frames? heck, look at what happens when serotta threads happen!

to handle differently that vs. the cottage industry of framebuilders is a double standard.

Agree 100%. If I'm shopping for a component or a frame or a complete bike, the first thing I do is look for others' experiences. In the case of a custom, those experiences include the ordering, fitting, communication, and delivery, not to mention the subsequent ride. Transparency is the first rule of business, imo.

jimmy-moots
08-17-2014, 06:34 PM
Sunlight, the best disinfectant.

+1

Although I do think everyone is on the same page here. It's seemingly clear the mods don't see any issue with open and frank discussion of builder experiences, if put forward tactfully and without emotion or malice.

I wait with baited breath to see the thread revived. I tuned in initially, then tuned out. Didn't realise IR got involved. Seems juicy! Ha.

Seriously though, note to builders:

If someone has had a problem, don't enter into the online discussion unless you're proposing to fix the issue. If you're not going to fix the issue, then all you can offer is a simple unqualified apology.

One discussion with a negative experience with you will not tarnish your reputation amongst a community of reasonable, rationally minded individuals.

Yes, everyone wants to hear from you. They do. But more often than not, you will give the issue more oxygen than it ever deserved. And if you're not a deft communicator, there is serious potential to kick own goals.

And when you enter into a discussion, start kicking those own goals, it starts to look like it isn't a single, random experience. It start to look like the issues being discussed are systematic.

And indeed, Ira was able to kick a few own goals in his guest post in the other thread. Qualified apologies are worthless and often become a liability for the apologiser.

This obviously doesn't apply to frame builders, but anyone in business.

firerescuefin
08-17-2014, 06:40 PM
One discussion with a negative experience with you will not tarnish your reputation amongst a community of reasonable, rationally minded individuals.

I'm reasonable and rationally minded. That was a grease fire. Ira's responses were....wanting (being very nice). No way that I or many others here would enter into a contract with him.....and that's not a "me" problem.

jimmy-moots
08-17-2014, 06:48 PM
I'm reasonable and rationally minded. That was a grease fire. Ira's responses were....wanting (being very nice). No way that I or many others here would enter into a contract with him.....and that's not a "me" problem.

Sorry for not being clear.

I'm talking about the thread pre-Ira's involvement, or any thread about a builder that has not had the builder's voice present. One discussion will not influence the wider-community's consensus. Of course if the same issue springs up over and over, that's another issue.

From what I had seen, Ray offered a very neutral account of what had happened and I don't think I would have termed it a grease fire. That is, I don't think any rebuttal from Ira was really required unless he was just going to show that he was a nice guy and give the initial $500 non-refundable deposit back or simply say "I stuffed up, I'm sorry".

firerescuefin
08-17-2014, 07:01 PM
I was referring to Ray's ordeal.

Ira made it clear that he thought the 500 was his....then wrote back and said "at this point" I am willing to give him his money back.

If I was Ira or his BW business partner, I'd have acted more like a superhero and less like a guy begrudgingly giving the money back...hoping it would go away. That doesn't play well. Genuine contrition and making it right would have gone a long way in setting the course, and maybe would have secured some future orders. People love a humble comeback story. JMO.

I think you and I are probably in agreement on most of this.

Sorry for not being clear.

I'm talking about the thread pre-Ira's involvement, or any thread about a builder that has not had the builder's voice present. One discussion will not influence the wider-community's consensus. Of course if the same issue springs up over and over, that's another issue.

From what I had seen, Ray offered a very neutral account of what had happened and I don't think I would have termed it a grease fire. That is, I don't think any rebuttal from Ira was really required unless he was just going to show that he was a nice guy and give the initial $500 non-refundable deposit back or simply say "I stuffed up, I'm sorry".

jimmy-moots
08-17-2014, 07:07 PM
Yes I think we agree and what we're talking about now is really a question of semantics. The argument I'm making is that Ira should never have got involved in the discussion and that is certainly a lesson to other builders.

I.e. Builders: Be cautious and know the outcome you want before you enter into an online discussion. If the outcome is "to clear your name" then stay the ∑∑∑∑ away!

Louis
08-17-2014, 07:12 PM
Ira made it clear that he thought the 500 was his....then wrote back and said "at this point" I am willing to give him his money back.

Other than the builder having little business savvy, the only logical reason I can think of to not return the money is if there are a ton of other guys out there just like Ray who have lost their deposit, and if it were to get out that one person got his back, then everyone would be beating down the door demanding theirs back too.

Even if the builder doesn't realize that returning the money is the right thing to do, given that he didn't hold up his end of the bargain, he ought to realize that for his own selfish PR reasons it's the smart thing to do. Otherwise, stuff like this happens, and a reputation is worth a heck of a lot more than $500 (one would think).

jimmy-moots
08-17-2014, 07:16 PM
^^^ That's assuming he has $500 to give back without impinging on his day-to-day expenses.

Joachim
08-17-2014, 07:24 PM
Maybe he can ask Tony Pareira for a loan . I wonder if Rapha knows what is going on? :).

brando
08-17-2014, 07:24 PM
Ira is bluffing that by giving raygunner a taste of his own medicine that he can shame him a little. Except that it could blow up in Ira's face, again. If raygunner stands by his story and lends his name to it, it gives it that much more credibility than an anonymous post. Ira thinks it's his world and we're just living in it. Sorry bro that's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.:banana:

eddief
08-17-2014, 07:25 PM
Ira stood by his no refund policy and Ray seemed to be frustrated with how he was treated and he quietly accepted the life lesson. He was ok with being out $500, since he did not fight to get it back. I am thinking Ira assumed, at least with Ray, the thing had been settled.

But then Ray came here to tell the story...cuz he really was not done.

firerescuefin
08-17-2014, 07:35 PM
Ira stood by his no refund policy and Ray seemed to be frustrated with how he was treated and he quietly accepted the life lesson. He was ok with being out $500, since he did not fight to get it back. I am thinking Ira assumed, at least with Ray, the thing had been settled.

But then Ray came here to tell the story...cuz he really was not done.

I don't really see what you thought your role was in this (your intention)....but I am reload RayG brought this issue forward. I take it you aren't?

I am not baiting or being sarcastic.

malcolm
08-17-2014, 07:41 PM
Ira stood by his no refund policy and Ray seemed to be frustrated with how he was treated and he quietly accepted the life lesson. He was ok with being out $500, since he did not fight to get it back. I am thinking Ira assumed, at least with Ray, the thing had been settled.

But then Ray came here to tell the story...cuz he really was not done.


Maybe I'm reading something into this that isn't there, but you seem to be implying that the OP had some sort of ulterior motive. I left the thread before Ira showed up, but all I got from it was he was relating a business interaction that was less than favorable.

I say kudos to him for that. We all post our raves about builderers, shops etc.. Why not post the negative? As long as it isn't character assassination or slanderous it seems to me it can only help. It seemed a straightforward lay out of the events that occurred. No name calling, no venom. I think it's useful.

firerescuefin
08-17-2014, 07:44 PM
Maybe I'm reading something into this that isn't there, but you seem to be implying that the OP had some sort of ulterior motive. I left the thread before Ira showed up, but all I got from it was he was relating a business interaction that was less than favorable.

I say kudos to him for that. We all post our raves about builderers, shops etc.. Why not post the negative? As long as it isn't character assassination or slanderous it seems to me it can only help. It seemed a straightforward lay out of the events that occurred. No name calling, no venom. I think it's useful.

^ this

The story was true. It spoke for itself.

OtayBW
08-17-2014, 07:57 PM
Ira stood by his no refund policy...
From all I've read, it seems that that was pretty much the only policy that he stood by. All of his other customer service policies seemed to be a moving target at his - and only his - discretion.

eddief
08-17-2014, 08:10 PM
I know I am in the minority opinion. My bottom line is that Ira is no prince, but I think on my scales of justice, the damage done by bringing this to the forum far outweighs what happend to Ray. Just my gut level opinion. I know when I'm done and I am.

Climb01742
08-17-2014, 08:21 PM
I know I am in the minority opinion. My bottom line is that Ira is no prince, but I think on my scales of justice, the damage done by bringing this to the forum far outweighs what happend to Ray. Just my gut level opinion. I know when I'm done and I am.

If damage was done, it was done by IR, by his own actions, or more accurately his inactions. My sense is he thought he could get away with treating a customer the way he did with few repercussions. The OP simply, fairly and honestly, as far as I can see, told what happened. Whatever ensues are repercussions IR, not the OP, brought upon himself. Chickens, welcome home to your roost.

raygunner
08-17-2014, 08:32 PM
I think what made me post my OP was summer. And how I had no road bike. You know, that road bike I was planning on...for two years!

What it all boiled down to was the wasted time.

Should I have called him throughout the past two years and demeaned the return of my time!?

"Where's my two dolla...I mean YEARS?!"

With my post I wasn't attempted affect his business, as it seemed like he has enough customers to deal with since he didn't have time for me.

I also wasn't seek the return of my deposit. Sure it stung the pocketbook, but that was his terms and I read that on his site.

Bringing this to the forum was an option for me and a pretty good one when you boil it down.

I brought up the business issues & they were debated for better & for worse. Again, he's selling & I'm buying. Or you know, attempting to buy.

What were my other options as a jilted customer? Getting really mad & obnoxious? Getting a lawyer? Slandering his character? These all sound pretty bad.

Seriously, I wish the guy the best. Again, he seems like he makes some killer bikes. This isn't going to tank him, if anything it forces him to address a deficiency in his business.

As for the original post, I'm going to sleep on having it posted again.

And I like my name...'cuz that's the name they gave me.

josephr
08-17-2014, 08:35 PM
If damage was done, it was done by IR, by his own actions, or more accurately his inactions. My sense is he thought he could get away with treating a customer the way he did with few repercussions. The OP simply, fairly and honestly, as far as I can see, told what happened. Whatever ensues are repercussions IR, not the OP, brought upon himself. Chickens, welcome home to your roost.


Exactly....IIRC, there was a mention that IR was following that thread...guess he's got more time to protect his reputation than actually delivering to customers. I hope he's following this thread too and maybe he'll realize he's not the only dude out there who's pretty good welding bikes together.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=113817

MattTuck
08-17-2014, 08:38 PM
I have to admit, I only read a little bit of the original thread, but it seemed like a simple "here's the experience I had, here's the thought process I went through, and here's what I decided and the outcome."

Seems like a useful piece of information for people in the market to buy custom frames.

In fact, I am reminded of this thread that I started last year, called "A few lessons from buying a custom frame" (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=129689) Which I had intended to be a good primer for first time custom buyers, so as not to make rookie mistakes. Seems that RG's experience belongs in that thread as well -- though not a rookie mistake, deposits and the potential for nondelivery is something to consider with any builder, especially when there is no signed contract in place.

firerescuefin
08-17-2014, 08:45 PM
All I'll add is that I'd like to see it stay. It won't come up within 4 pages on a search engine (I got tired after going through 5 pages), but it will be searchable on here, and if someone joins this community and searches Ira Ryan or BreadWinner (I know you said they're different, but I think there is a link)....then the TRUE story will be there in its historical glory. If they want to move forward or have the conversation with Ira, they will be doing so with eyes wide open. I think that is well within the spirit of the original thread.



I think what made me post my OP was summer.
And how I had no road bike. You know, that road bike I was planning on...for two years!

What it all boiled down to was the wasted time.

Should I have called him throughout the past two years and demeaned the return of my time!?

"Where's my two dolla...I mean YEARS?!"

With my post I wasn't attempted affect his business, as it seemed like he has enough customers to deal with since he didn't have time for me.

I also wasn't seek the return of my deposit. Sure it stung the pocketbook, but that was his terms and I read that on his site.

Bringing this to the forum was an option for me and a pretty good one when you boil it down.

I brought up the business issues & they were debated for better & for worse. Again, he's selling & I'm buying. Or you know, attempting to buy.

What were my other options as a jilted customer? Getting really mad & obnoxious? Getting a lawyer? Slandering his character? These all sound pretty bad.

Seriously, I wish the guy the best. Again, he seems like he makes some killer bikes. This isn't going to tank him, if anything it forces him to address a deficiency in his business.

As for the original post, I'm going to sleep on having it posted again.

And I like my name...'cuz that's the name they gave me.

mosca
08-17-2014, 09:13 PM
(snipped)What were my other options as a jilted customer?

Explain to him all the ways he was in breach of contract and tell him you'd like your deposit back?

I appreciate your rancor-less posts on the subject, but it feels like you skipped an important step in the process. Had he agreed to refund your money then, we could all be lauding him for being a stand-up guy. Had he refused, at least some of the ensuing criticism would have been more valid, IMO.

Sorry if this sounds overly critical, hope you get your money back and put it towards an awesome custom bike from one of the great builders out there.

firerescuefin
08-17-2014, 09:21 PM
Had he agreed to refund your money then, we could all be lauding him for being a stand-up guy. Had he refused, at least some of the ensuing criticism would have been more valid, IMO.

A stand up guy wouldn't have stopped communicating/pushed someone off for over a year after the original promise date...nor would a stand up guy come here and say the deposit was his before begrudgingly saying he would give it back "at this point".

Him giving the deposit back would have lessened the degree of the issue, but let's not get carried away.

pbarry
08-17-2014, 09:25 PM
Explain to him all the ways he was in breach of contract and tell him you'd like your deposit back?

I appreciate your rancor-less posts on the subject, but it feels like you skipped an important step in the process. Had he agreed to refund your money then, we could all be lauding him for being a stand-up guy. Had he refused, at least some of the ensuing criticism would have been more valid, IMO.

Sorry if this sounds overly critical, hope you get your money back and put it towards an awesome custom bike from one of the great builders out there.

I don't know if you were able to read IR's post last night, but it was evident to me that the only reason he was offering the initial deposit back at this point was because of the drum beat in the original thread. You might read it differently. Tomorrow we can review his post.

Edit: Finn beat me to it and said it better.

xeladragon
08-17-2014, 09:41 PM
Don't wanna speak for raygunner, but I think he's made it pretty clear that it wasn't about the money, no? He was OK with losing his deposit, and he understood those terms upfront. What bothered him the most, and what led to his OP, was the time wasted waiting for a custom frameset that was never delivered, not due to any fault of his own.

Waldo
08-18-2014, 12:13 AM
These "walk away" threads have been my favorite reads on this forum for the last three years.

Louis
08-18-2014, 12:23 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

mosca
08-18-2014, 12:59 AM
I think we all agree that Raygunner deserves to get his money back, any rational person in this situation would want their money back, but I guess I can only speak for myself when I say that I wouldn't feel comfortable walking away without specifically asking to have the deposit refunded. I guess I'm not as "zen" as Raygunner, but really, who is?

TBDSeattle
08-18-2014, 02:21 AM
The mods here do a great job.

+1

Thank you mods. You do great work. This site is one of my favorites on the internet, and it is because of the members, and the gentle guidance that the mods use on threads.

You do not get the thanks you deserve.

TBDSeattle

Dead Man
08-18-2014, 02:42 AM
Don't wanna speak for raygunner, but I think he's made it pretty clear that it wasn't about the money, no? He was OK with losing his deposit, and he understood those terms upfront. What bothered him the most, and what led to his OP, was the time wasted waiting for a custom frameset that was never delivered, not due to any fault of his own.

No- wasn't yet delivered. Sounds like the OP was definitely well past the halfway point when he pulled out.

As I didn't get a chance to express in the other thread: it would be one thing if RG's thread was this was my experience, it wasn't that bad, but I'm kinda irked about it, and the response was interesting. I guess if I ever order a frame from Ira, I'll have some patience and make sure to keep on him!

But that's not the case: Instead, the thread was Even though Ira thinks we're all cool, therefor hasn't made any additional effort to appease me, because he thinks we're all cool, and the response has been oh thanks for posting this public service announcement! We all know never to order a bike from that fool!

And the comments are overwhelmingly generalized toward Ira as though he treats all his customers like ∑∑∑∑ and doesn't know how to run a business- based on a single anecdotal account.

All I've got is a huge eyeroll for this whole trainwreck.

Llewellyn
08-18-2014, 04:27 AM
No- wasn't yet delivered. Sounds like the OP was definitely well past the halfway point when he pulled out.

As I didn't get a chance to express in the other thread: it would be one thing if RG's thread was this was my experience, it wasn't that bad, but I'm kinda irked about it, and the response was interesting. I guess if I ever order a frame from Ira, I'll have some patience and make sure to keep on him!

But that's not the case: Instead, the thread was Even though Ira thinks we're all cool, therefor hasn't made any additional effort to appease me, because he thinks we're all cool, and the response has been oh thanks for posting this public service announcement! We all know never to order a bike from that fool!

And the comments are overwhelmingly generalized toward Ira as though he treats all his customers like ∑∑∑∑ and doesn't know how to run a business- based on a single anecdotal account.

All I've got is a huge eyeroll for this whole trainwreck.

So it would have been OK if Ray had posted about a great experience, but not if he posts about one that didn't go well?? From what I see, Ray's handling of the whole situation and his posting about it has been exemplary

As I said in the other thread, as long as the subject of the post has the opportunity to put his side of the story, then people can make up their own minds. These threads are fine if handled in the way that Ray handled it, and they're just as valuable as ones where someone has a great experience.

soulspinner
08-18-2014, 05:01 AM
If damage was done, it was done by IR, by his own actions, or more accurately his inactions. My sense is he thought he could get away with treating a customer the way he did with few repercussions. The OP simply, fairly and honestly, as far as I can see, told what happened. Whatever ensues are repercussions IR, not the OP, brought upon himself. Chickens, welcome home to your roost.

+1 and it could happen to any of us, he simply told us what happened (all true) and we are adults and can CHOOSE for ourselves.

Joachim
08-18-2014, 05:41 AM
And the comments are overwhelmingly generalized toward Ira as though he treats all his customers like ∑∑∑∑ and doesn't know how to run a business- based on a single anecdotal account.

All I've got is a huge eyeroll for this whole trainwreck.

This is not an isolated incident with Ira Ryan.

fuzzalow
08-18-2014, 06:43 AM
Interesting reading from all the different points of view that seem to come from very different vantage points. I am slightly perplexed by the ongoing persistance in omerta for builders and the strange attitude of elevating these builders as a combination of artiste and enfant terrible.

It just strikes me as many of the views reflect someone who has never dealt with or experienced a custom builder of any product. As such their opinions reflect an attitude not predicated on what is a loose form of commerce but an idealized version of what a fantasy it might be. Or likewise not having any precepts as to professional behavior that allows them to form expectations on how clients interact with any service provider. The real world, and professional life in particular, has boundaries, stricture and expectations as to acceptable practices and behavior.

Things operate in a structure of sorts. And nobody would allow themselves to be disadvantaged in working with a builder that makes his own reality and arbitrary rules based on whatever is good for him at the moment. Because there is nothing on earth worth enduring that kind of temperamental nonsense. Well, I'd put up with that crap if it were Picasso that promised me a free painting, but barring that fantasy, I'd never do it.

Some of the views that it is somehow OK to wait interminably for delivery on a frame is something I find astounding. It must be the ideas from someone who has never put money down and has no real clue as to what happens next. Talk is cheap. And people who spend money would not at all be thrilled about some grifter builder also wasting their time.

I know, its just a discussion and all were invited to chime in. A very varied crowd indeed.

sitzmark
08-18-2014, 06:57 AM
As an observation, almost all of the original thread lives on through this one, except the original poster's legal name has not been revealed and the account of the situation is more blurred.

Similar to the first thread, the focus has gravitated to the deposit. That was not weighted as the primary issue in the original post, but one of many issues. It was the Paceline community that shifted the primary focus onto the deposit. As a group, we weighed in that the failure of the builder to meet the longest estimated timeline plus 50%, and no firm commitment for a delivery date, was unacceptable. The consensus - at least mine - was under such circumstances an honorable businessman would have offered the deposit as an acknowledgement of his failure to perform. The builder offered a substitute frameset (of different construction and branding) in a shorter timeline to fulfill the original agreement. The OP objected to those terms, wanting the signature frameset he originally contracted. The OP was first in line, then second in line, but without any commitment for delivery of the frameset he ordered. At that point he decided to walk. His opening post detailed his (this) experience. The builder communicated that the OPs presentation of the situation was accurate.

The builder stressed the OP did not ask for his deposit back. The OP had stated that he did not ask for the deposit back. No conflict of fact. There was no mention by the builder that the OP was forbidden to communicate his experience to anyone as a condition of the agreement being dissolved. As reported (and confirmed by builder) the OP met all of his commitments. The builder did not.

As the mods (who do an excellent job!) have allowed this thread to continue, it has become (almost) a complete reincarnation of the other thread. Seems illogical to delete one and not the other.

93legendti
08-18-2014, 07:20 AM
I know I am in the minority opinion. My bottom line is that Ira is no prince, but I think on my scales of justice, the damage done by bringing this to the forum far outweighs what happend to Ray. Just my gut level opinion. I know when I'm done and I am.

It's fascinating that some think Ira needs protection from the reaction to his policies. A business person understands the pros and cons of his/her policies and surely Ira weighed the pros and cons.

dekindy
08-18-2014, 07:38 AM
Interesting reading from all the different points of view that seem to come from very different vantage points. I am slightly perplexed by the ongoing persistance in omerta for builders and the strange attitude of elevating these builders as a combination of artiste and enfant terrible.

It just strikes me as many of the views reflect someone who has never dealt with or experienced a custom builder of any product. As such their opinions reflect an attitude not predicated on what is a loose form of commerce but an idealized version of what a fantasy it might be. Or likewise not having any precepts as to professional behavior that allows them to form expectations on how clients interact with any service provider. The real world, and professional life in particular, has boundaries, stricture and expectations as to acceptable practices and behavior.

Things operate in a structure of sorts. And nobody would allow themselves to be disadvantaged in working with a builder that makes his own reality and arbitrary rules based on whatever is good for him at the moment. Because there is nothing on earth worth enduring that kind of temperamental nonsense. Well, I'd put up with that crap if it were Picasso that promised me a free painting, but barring that fantasy, I'd never do it.

Some of the views that it is somehow OK to wait interminably for delivery on a frame is something I find astounding. It must be the ideas from someone who has never put money down and has no real clue as to what happens next. Talk is cheap. And people who spend money would not at all be thrilled about some grifter builder also wasting their time.

I know, its just a discussion and all were invited to chime in. A very varied crowd indeed.

Some people will defend bad business behavior in the frame building World with every fabric in their body. Seems the frame builder's skill is the most important part of the equation instead of being in it's proper perspective as the building block along with a good business plan. I would anticipate that the attitude across the hall would land on the side of IR as it has in the past.

As I have said, I have read enough of the frame building experiences that I am still tempted some day. But if I ever went custom, the list of builders would be very short based upon my perception of business practices. There are enough good builder/businessmen that you don't have to settle.

unterhausen
08-18-2014, 08:03 AM
As I have said, I have read enough of the frame building experiences that I am still tempted some day. But if I ever went custom, the list of builders would be very short based upon my perception of business practices. There are enough good builder/businessmen that you don't have to settle.

The thing I hate about threads like this is that people see them and say, "custom frame, no way, I'm going to buy a Trek." So there are a number of competent framebuilders that lose business because of one guy going flakey. Looks to me that this was a case of someone starting up a business and not being willing to admit that his old business was no longer operating. It's a one-time deal and it's hard to start a new business.

fuzzalow
08-18-2014, 08:08 AM
Some people will defend bad business behavior in the frame building World with every fabric in their body. Seems the frame builder's skill is the most important part of the equation instead of being in it's proper perspective as the building block along with a good business plan. I would anticipate that the attitude across the hall would land on the side of IR as it has in the past.

Yes but in consideration of who pays the bills there, having the editorial bent that VS has is fully entitled. Kinda like a report on carbon emmissions and climate change paid for by the Koch brothers. From the client perspective, I don't understand how you could buy into that whole spiel. The whole thing reeks of builder-as-rock-star self indulgence, yeah they wish, and a general contempt for the client.

As I have said, I have read enough of the frame building experiences that I am still tempted some day. But if I ever went custom, the list of builders would be very short based upon my perception of business practices. There are enough good builder/businessmen that you don't have to settle.

Do not be deterred, there are many that are well run businesses backed by outstanding craft. I have never been ripped off by a builder, quite the opposite. You touch upon perhaps the grossest miscarriage inflicted to the builder profession in that the types of builders that steal from clients get lots of attention. And the true craftsen and icons of the custom business simply go about their business and get splashed by the same excrement that builders like IR bring to themselves and collaterally taint their "profession".

William
08-18-2014, 08:15 AM
Okay folks, let's keep this on topic.

Things well be resolved shortly, thread will be restored, and we can all enjoy the day.:)







William

FlashUNC
08-18-2014, 08:27 AM
Yes but in consideration of who pays the bills there, having the editorial bent that VS has is fully entitled. Kinda like a report on carbon emmissions and climate change paid for by the Koch brothers. From the client perspective, I don't understand how you could buy into that whole spiel. The whole thing reeks of builder-as-rock-star self indulgence, yeah they wish, and a general contempt for the client.



Do not be deterred, there are many that are well run businesses backed by outstanding craft. I have never been ripped off by a builder, quite the opposite. You touch upon perhaps the grossest miscarriage inflicted to the builder profession in that the types of builders that steal from clients get lots of attention. And the true craftsen and icons of the custom business simply go about their business and get splashed by the same excrement that builders like IR bring to themselves and collaterally taint their "profession".

The list of excellent builders out there, I'd imagine if we all noodled about it, would be longer than the list of those who are not.

Plenty of stand-up, excellent folks in this industry who will deliver what they promise, when they promise it. But I can totally understand a few bad apples spoiling the bunch.

cfox
08-18-2014, 08:30 AM
All I ever read/heard about Ira Ryan was how often he rode his rode his bike, and how often he rode it in faraway places. That was always a red flag for me. I understand everyone needs a life, but he cultivated (art directed?) an image that he was doing everything but building bikes.

palincss
08-18-2014, 08:42 AM
Some people will defend bad business behavior in the frame building World with every fabric in their body. Seems the frame builder's skill is the most important part of the equation instead of being in it's proper perspective as the building block along with a good business plan.

I'm not sure it's skill, either alone or even in the greater part, that arouses this sort of idolatry. Some highly skilled frame builders, including people who have been in business for many decades, do not inspire this sort of rock-star reverence. In fact, we hardly ever hear of them on the forums. And some who do receive this kind of adulation have hardly demonstrated that they even have skills.

So, what is it that makes a builder a Rock God?

holliscx
08-18-2014, 08:46 AM
Someone put a fork in this thread please.

Llewellyn
08-18-2014, 08:53 AM
Someone put a fork in this thread please.

Why?

malcolm
08-18-2014, 08:54 AM
I think we all agree that Raygunner deserves to get his money back, any rational person in this situation would want their money back, but I guess I can only speak for myself when I say that I wouldn't feel comfortable walking away without specifically asking to have the deposit refunded. I guess I'm not as "zen" as Raygunner, but really, who is?

You miss the whole point. It's not about the non refundable deposit. That was a policy accepted in advance.

This is about missed deadlines and no explanations, no communication apparently repeatedly and failure to deliver a product in any fashion much less a timely one. It wouldn't bother me personally if a builder was late, within reason but I would expect unsolicited communication giving me a heads up and maybe a why. Sounds like he got mostly silence until the story became public.

grawk
08-18-2014, 08:56 AM
The important part to me is that the builder was, at the same time, delivering bikes under his new company when said company didn't exist when the money was put down.

Bostic
08-18-2014, 09:02 AM
This is about missed deadlines and no explanations, no communication apparently repeatedly and failure to deliver a product in any fashion much less a timely one.

Can someone please tell me how in any professional business environment would this ever be acceptable and defendable?

holliscx
08-18-2014, 09:19 AM
Can someone please tell me how in any professional business environment would this ever be acceptable and defendable?

Shaq's FT shooting

christian
08-18-2014, 09:40 AM
I understand everyone needs a life, but he cultivated (art directed?) an image that he was doing everything but building bikes.Well, in this case I guess the image matched the reality. Unlike when I dress my chubby bod full Rapha for a sunny 26 miler. :)

Burnette
08-18-2014, 10:13 AM
To keep this on the finner point of what the OP's thread did and did not do, I'll tell you that it gave this forum legitimacy as a provider of shared information that is truly open.
Constituting an Omerta, censorship against true information about customer and builders will drive people with common sense and six thousand dollars to spend on a bicycle away. Wait, is that an oxymoron? Ha!
I see traces of censoring in other forums and it is so off putting. You don't need Mods locking threads or other forum memebers PMing and talking down to another forum memeber that has a valid question that may or may not be what the builder "likes". That forum loses it's image as an open door for builders and forumites to share and is seen for what it really is, a harshly controlled venue just for advertisement and onesided arguments.
I will say that some cutomers may have fell butt backwards into their money, but I would say that just as many if not more have worked hard to get were they are and are not stupid and don't like being taken as such.
There are many, many builders out there, many who do a great job. What is hard to discern is temperment. Home repairs, a custom suit, bad things will pop up, how does the one providing the service respond? That's what is at the heart of this, things happen, how did the participants respond. Lay it out in the open and let adults take whatever side they choose, builder, customer, I don't care, but there should be a place where sunlight can shine.
I commend this forum for it's time spent (most valuable commodity, thanks guys, I know you have more to do thsan this) and it's values it's trying to uphold.
Sometimes doing the right thing is so time consuming and hard and you are repaid for it by getting berated.
Keep up the good work, it's what sets you apart from the white noise everywhere else. I appreciate you as a good resource and want you to continue.

firerescuefin
08-18-2014, 10:30 AM
Well, in this case I guess the image matched the reality. Unlike when I dress my chubby bod full Rapha for a sunny 26 miler. :)

I've seen some SUPER TIGHT undershirts for sale on late night TV (say they make you appear 20 pounds lighter) that may lend themselves to you externally project your inner Epic-ness. I can't speak to what they do to your circulation or blood pressure, but those are ancillary issues anyway.

Johnny Alien
08-18-2014, 10:37 AM
This exact same thing is common with custom guitar amp builders too. These type of informational posts pop up from time to time on guitar forums too.

soulspinner
08-18-2014, 11:22 AM
Shaq's FT shooting

:)

mosca
08-18-2014, 12:23 PM
You miss the whole point. It's not about the non refundable deposit. That was a policy accepted in advance.

This is about missed deadlines and no explanations, no communication apparently repeatedly and failure to deliver a product in any fashion much less a timely one. It wouldn't bother me personally if a builder was late, within reason but I would expect unsolicited communication giving me a heads up and maybe a why. Sounds like he got mostly silence until the story became public.

The point is that a "non-refundable" deposit is not absolute and non-negotiable when the builder is clearly in breach of contract, as seems to be the case here.

Wouldn't you agree that Raygunner is entitled to a refund, should want a refund, and should make at least a nominal effort to get a refund? We all might have a different idea about how much effort to expend attempting to recover our deposit, but I think "zero effort" is not a good choice.

grawk
08-18-2014, 12:49 PM
raygunner chose to honor his side of the agreement. He then decided to let people know his side of the story. Both of these things seem reasonable.

Not asking for his money back certainly wouldn't preclude him from telling people the story nor does it make his motives suspect.

etu
08-18-2014, 01:01 PM
I think the OP has made it clear that this was not about the money but about lost time. I don't find it unreasonable for him to walk away and not engage in an unnecessary or unpleasant confrontation. The hope would be that he builder, recognizing his responsiblity, would volunteer to refund the deposit. I think the title of the original thread "wallk away" says it all. Don't fight, don't get angry, take a deep breath, take the high road and just walk away.
Eddief was right that he couldn't completely walk away, but I don't think it is wrong that he would seek empathy from an online "community" with which he has developed longstanding ties and the one group that could understand his disapointment. Vast majority of responses clearly show that he has quite a bit of credibility here.

malcolm
08-18-2014, 01:16 PM
The point is that a "non-refundable" deposit is not absolute and non-negotiable when the builder is clearly in breach of contract, as seems to be the case here.

Wouldn't you agree that Raygunner is entitled to a refund, should want a refund, and should make at least a nominal effort to get a refund? We all might have a different idea about how much effort to expend attempting to recover our deposit, but I think "zero effort" is not a good choice.

Whole heartedly agree but I don't think that is the issue and refund of the deposit doesn't make the actual issues go away. The builders bad behavior in my mind far exceeds the deposit, but I do agree refund is warranted.

In many aspects of life just having the skill to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea. A builder may be a master in putting together a geometry that will work wonders for you based on your numbers and an artist in wielding the torch. If your business sense and attention to details of the business are not there then you shouldn't do it. Either work for someone else that runs the business or hire someone to do it. No matter how good you are at the task if you ignore the details of the business you will fail.

Just like people that do remarkably well at their given job then are moved into management based of performance of their job and they suck at it. Doing you job well doesn't mean you can manage other people.

mosca
08-18-2014, 01:54 PM
To be clear, I didn't intend to comment on Ira Ryan's performance, seems like folks have that more-than covered at this point.

All of Raygunner's other "losses" are water under the bridge at this point, but the deposit is still recoverable and I think it would have been better for all concerned if he had explicitly asked for a refund before posting his complaint here.

Some people have assumed that Ira had initially refused to refund the deposit, but I'm not sure that's the case. He seems a bit tone-deaf and is obviously preoccupied with his new venture, but, if it were me, taking ten minutes to send him an email explaining my feelings and requesting a refund would have given me greater peace of mind and possibly my 500 dollars back, so that's my recommendation.

Wish Raygunner the best, mosca out.:)

malcolm
08-18-2014, 02:13 PM
To be clear, I didn't intend to comment on Ira Ryan's performance, seems like folks have that more-than covered at this point.

All of Raygunner's other "losses" are water under the bridge at this point, but the deposit is still recoverable and I think it would have been better for all concerned if he had explicitly asked for a refund before posting his complaint here.

Some people have assumed that Ira had initially refused to refund the deposit, but I'm not sure that's the case. He seems a bit tone-deaf and is obviously preoccupied with his new venture, but, if it were me, taking ten minutes to send him an email explaining my feelings and requesting a refund would have given me greater peace of mind and possibly my 500 dollars back, so that's my recommendation.

Wish Raygunner the best, mosca out.:)


Last comment on this thread

You seem fixated on the deposit. I don't see where anyone assumed Ira refused to refund the deposit. I clearly understood from the beginning the OP never asked for it.

As far as ten minutes to send an e-mail, it seems as if Ira responded to e-mails or other communication this never would have happened. His inability to communicate is the source of the whole debate.

mosca
08-18-2014, 03:28 PM
Last comment on this thread

You seem fixated on the deposit. I don't see where anyone assumed Ira refused to refund the deposit. I clearly understood from the beginning the OP never asked for it.

As far as ten minutes to send an e-mail, it seems as if Ira responded to e-mails or other communication this never would have happened. His inability to communicate is the source of the whole debate.

Yeah, I'm trying to wean myself from this thread too. It's not going real well.

I am not fixated on the deposit, my comments were focused on the deposit. I hope you understand the distinction.

I addressed the deposit for two reasons. First, it is really the only concrete, recoverable "loss" that Raygunner has suffered, and I think it's best in this situation to focus on something concrete. Second, you can opine about what the other guy did or didn't do until the cows come home, but it's more important to focus on your own actions, so that's what I'm suggesting to Raygunner. I think he "walked away" a bit prematurely and would feel a lot more comfortable about the situation had he made a formal request for a refund. Ira's response or lack thereof is secondary to knowing that you yourself did the right thing.

Raygunner, if you were initially thinking that a refund was out of the question, I hope all the discussion here on Paceline has changed your mind. Get your money back, man!

grawk
08-18-2014, 03:44 PM
Seems like he was pretty clear, that what made him more comfortable was venting about the bad experience, and getting his money back wouldn't fix the problem.

brando
08-18-2014, 07:18 PM
Why should he have to ask for the deposit? IR was a year overdue, not responsive and had delivered nothing. If those facts aren't obvious enough or embarrassing enough or "out-of-spec" enough for IR to take notice, what's asking going to accomplish? I agree with the OPs logic, tired of trying to manage IR since IR wouldn't manage himself.

Jason E
08-18-2014, 07:23 PM
If everyone comments once, can this thread die? We are beating the horse on a thread about a thread? Is that Meta?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Louis
08-18-2014, 07:26 PM
Ask yourself this: What is the fundamental purpose of a deposit?

To show that the buyer is serious, and to prevent him/her from backing out when it's time to actually build the frame? To fund the purchase of long-lead items so the builder can better smooth out cash coming in and cash going out? Or is it to feed the builder's kids and pay the rent in the months (years?) before the frame is delivered?

The purpose of the deposit and how it was used (the two may be different) may have an effect on the builder's ability to return that money if he's unable to hold up his end of the bargain.

pbarry
08-18-2014, 07:38 PM
If everyone comments once, can this thread die? We are beating the horse on a thread about a thread? Is that Meta?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

BINGO! We have a winner! :hello:

Shortsocks
08-18-2014, 07:41 PM
Jesus this is a long ass thread. Wow, not one Pro/Anti-Lance comment, or why SRAM sucks...also there isn't one comment about classified flipping.

And all of this and there isn't ONE picture of RayGunner's custom built Ira...:banana:

SlackMan
08-18-2014, 07:43 PM
If everyone comments once, can this thread die? We are beating the horse on a thread about a thread? Is that Meta?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

But I haven't commented yet. Oh, now I have. ;)

pbarry
08-18-2014, 08:05 PM
Jesus this is a long ass thread. Wow, not one Pro/Anti-Lance comment, or why SRAM sucks...also there isn't one comment about classified flipping.

And all of this and there isn't ONE picture of RayGunner's custom built Ira... :banana:

Well done, Sir. :beer:

Tony T
08-18-2014, 08:08 PM
If everyone comments once, can this thread die?

This should kill it: "It's Bush's fault!", "FoxNews!!", Obamacare!!!

pbarry
08-18-2014, 08:12 PM
^^ Troublemaker. ;)

raygunner
08-18-2014, 08:41 PM
Put a fork in it. It's over. I don't have the power to close this thread...

But it's CLOSED!

William
08-18-2014, 08:48 PM
Your wish is my command.:)

Besides, this thread has run its course. Many thanks to all those who kept it civil and fairly trouble free.






William

PS: Tony T, get over here!!!:mad:

;););)