a letter from Ira Ryan

[eddief]

I have not even read this. It appears Ira IS NOT ABLE to post to an account here on the forum...for whatever reason.
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To whom it may concern.

Everything that was written about Eric’s experience between myself as Ira Ryan Cycles and him was true and accurate. My website for Ira Ryan Cycles has always had it clearly stated that all $500 deposits are non-refundable and I have never been unclear about that policy when dealing with customers. Meeting Eric in Portland in 2012 when he paid his deposit was great as it is always nice to meet people in person that getting to know them over emails and phone conversations. I felt that we had a good fit and I was looking forward to building him a bike.

The conversation we had regarding him pulling the plug on his order were clear and concise and I felt we were both making a clean break and going our separate way so the fact that the “no agenda” letter made it to this forum was a bit of a surprise to say the least. After the phone conversation when he said he felt I hadn’t communicated well about the time line of the build and wanted to cancel his order, I sent him his second payment of $500 back within 10 days. I was sad to have left it at that but I tried to move on with my business. The milk had been spilled.

The biggest reason why Tony Pereira and I started Breadwinner was because of the wait list issue. Over the course of the 7 years we had built our own custom frames before we started working together as Breadwinner, our waitlists had grown to 18-24 months and many potential customers turned away because they didn’t want to wait that long for a bike. We had both built just over 100 frames by this time in 2012 and spent a lot of our time trying to balance the tasks of customer service, building every frame, dealing with parts and paint and them assembling and shipping every bike. Every step takes a long time, especially when each bike is bespoke.

Our goal with Breadwinner Cycles was to offer the same level custom fit and build but with an 8-12 week turn around. We, Tony and I, still do 90% of the work for every Breadwinner bike that leaves our shop in North Portland, USA. We started and operate the business 50/50 and our goal is to make a business that can support a few people enough to have healthy, happy lives, at work and off the clock. We have made mistakes with Breadwinner over the last two years but we try to learn from those mistakes and improve our business, our communication and also the bikes.

Both Tony and I love bikes, building and also riding and neither one of us want to get to a point where we hate our jobs or riding what we build. Striking that balance between what we do and who we are in our work, our relationships and with our passions is not easy.

[buldogge]

Nice ad for Breadwinner…

He certainly doesn't seem to have any inkling/realization that the extended wait time and lack of communication in Eric's case should warrant a bending of the policy re: "non-refundable deposit".

A contract requires both parties to keep up there end of the "deal"…Eric kept his…Ira, not so much.

DB.

-Mark in St. Louis

[rcnute]

Isn't raygunner still out $500?

Ryan

[pbarry]

Nice ad for Breadwinner…

-Mark in St. Louis

Yep. Clueless.

[Ken Robb]

"I took his money under policy "A" but then I changed to policy "B". Too bad the customer expected me to perform as I promised under policy "A". "I will, however, stick to the non-refundable clause in policy "A".

"My promises mean nothing"??????

This is unconscionable. How could any future customers believe he might not take their deposits and then change to Policy "C"?

What would a warranty from a guy like this be worth?

[firerescuefin]

Feigned surprise.

No real ownership.

Deflect and redirect.

Moving on down the road.



Noted

[biker72]

"I took his money under policy "A" but then I changed to policy "B". Too bad the customer expected me to perform as I promised under policy "A". "I will, however, stick to the non-refundable clause in policy "A".

"My promises mean nothing"??????

This is unconscionable. How could any future customers believe he might not take their deposits and then change to Policy "C"?

What would a warranty from a guy like this be worth?

Absolutely nothing.

[93legendti]

So nice of OP to post for Ira...:rolleyes:

[ergott]

Doesn't realize that in the long run, giving back $500 that he thought was his is money well lost in the name of brand protection.

David Kirk said it best about his deposit policy. He also is known for not drawing out the process longer so he can back up his end of the bargain.

[CunegoFan]

What surpises me is that someone can build less than a hundred frames and have a wait list of 18-24 months.

I would be looking for someone with a bit more experience, especially if I wanted anything that was not stock geometry.

[bluesea]

MF (IR) got no clue. Like we say in New Zealand, p*ss off.

[pbarry]

What surpises me is that someone can build less than a hundred frames and have a wait list of 18-24 months.

I would be looking for someone with a bit more experience, especially if I wanted anything that was not stock geometry.

That's not much of a que, as those hundred frames were built over a period of nine years: So there were, apparently, 18-24 people on the "list".

[oldpotatoe]

What surpises me is that someone can build less than a hundred frames and have a wait list of 18-24 months.

I would be looking for someone with a bit more experience, especially if I wanted anything that was not stock geometry.

Mee too....add a zero and rate a 18 month+ wait(which I think is too long also).

Waterford is about 12-14 weeks, for a custom, from scratch frame, acceptable, IMHO.

[eddief]

Ira had a chance at some redemption and, to some degree, making "a silk purse out of a sow's ear." Let me be clear, I think he blew it.

As I said, I would have approached the whole thing differently than Eric, but in the end the result is mostly the same, except I would hopefully have all of my money back. And if I'd gotten "money back" satisfaction, would not have gone public.

I see the value and downside of going public.

My apologies to Eric for the "shat" comment that I later erased since it was beyond even what blunt me really wanted to say.

May those who are craftsmen and businessmen prevail.

And please, I prefer Richard, rather than Dick.

And lastly, I am glad we got Ken Robb worked up enough to get his attention off his aching body.

[fourflys]

What surpises me is that someone can build less than a hundred frames and have a wait list of 18-24 months.

I would be looking for someone with a bit more experience, especially if I wanted anything that was not stock geometry.

Rapha tie-in account for it?

[tiretrax]

Justification of his self-centered actions. Aint go not clue. I wonder how long Breadwinner will last.

[93legendti]

Someone should start a "Post Your Positive Experience With Ira Ryan" thread...:D

[fourflys]

I gotta say I really like the Breadwinner bikes though... a real shame this is the experience that was had... too many other great builders out there to take a risk for sure

[johnny_flapjack]

I have not even read this. It appears Ira IS NOT ABLE to post to an account here on the forum...for whatever reason.
-----------------------------------------

To whom it may concern.

Our goal with Breadwinner Cycles was to offer the same level custom fit and build but with an 8-12 week turn around.

Odd that the "about" page of their website says 8-10 weeks. Apparently already preparing to fail to meet expectations, or just is not aware that their website is over-promising.

.

[bcroslin]

Ira, refund the $500 and I think you might actually walk away with a little bit of goodwill towards Breadwinner. Your non-refundable deposit is BS when YOU are the one who was the issue and not the customer. I mean, what's $500 to you in the bigger scheme of things when Breadwinner and your other ventures are clearly panning out so well?

We have made mistakes with Breadwinner over the last two years but we try to learn from those mistakes and improve our business, our communication and also the bikes.

How many of those mistakes have cost paying customers non-refundable $500 deposits?

[texbike]

I wonder how long Breadwinner will last.

It won't. You have two individuals who are clueless about what makes a long-term, healthy business (happy customers). Again, they're more concerned about brand and ad copy (Ira's response seems to support that position) than taking the high road. I give them two years at most. Perhaps they should "put a bird on it" now and be done with it. Don't drag it out. Just move on and work for a social media consulting firm where the deliverables are a lot less complicated and more in their wheelhouse.

Texbike

[pdmtong]

I guess he feels that cash today better than cash tomorrow.

As in "the $500 I kept from long ago makes me feel better than the lost revenue from the bikes I will never sell to the people here [and the people who those people talk to]" and so on.

The rationale for BWC is well known for those who follow Tony and NAHBS. No need to reiterate. Took the political low road by not addressing the core of Ray's issue. Does he really think people here cannot read through and past that?

There is a guy around here riding an orange IR who I've seen riding the opposite direction a few times. I used ot be interested in seeing it, now def not. And glad I didnt plunk down $40 for one of his caps at NAHBS...since I'd have to toss it where all my Lance stuff went.

Clueless ...

[Fivethumbs]

That letter did more harm than good.

[kurto]

Wow. I didn't think it was possible for a response from Ira to actually make the situation worse. He basically said, "Yeah everything Eric said was true. I pushed back the delivery of the bike until he broke, and I kept his money (but not all of it). I mean, guys, I said NON-refundable. Now how about my new brand? You can totally trust me on this one." He makes nice bikes, sure, but he certainly seems to be divorced from reality when it comes to customer service and what's fair and right.

[Ahneida Ride]

Ira's account was activated yesterday. About 18:45 EST.

The mods would appreciated the exact details as to why it cannot be
accessed and we will do our best to get this squared away asap.

Yes, its computer hardware and software and "stuff" does happen.

Please understand the Keith simply can't jump when glitches occur.

[CNY rider]

Ira, put down the shovel and stop digging.

[rwsaunders]

feigned surprise.

No real ownership.

Deflect and redirect.

Moving on down the road.



noted

+1.

[Chris]

A few years ago I was shopping around for a new frame. I posted a question about Ira. I thought it might be nice to give a new guy some business. Shortly afterwards I got a couple of PMs warning me off based on similar experiences. Glad I listened.

I'm trying to figure out how two guys who both have 24 month waiting lists can team together to reduce that list to a quarter if that.

[Ahneida Ride]

I know of a few stories where the customer was 100% wrong and
the builder(s) when out of their way to make it right and lost frns.

Reputable builders strive for 100% satisfaction.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

That letter did more harm than good.

Agreed. Reminds of the saying "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." I am glad he wrote it, though. Now we've heard from the man himself.

[pdmtong]

Reputable builders strive for 100% satisfaction.

I dont' think 100% customer satisfaction is always reasonable...but there is a moral compass litmus test that should be passed. What is reasonable? Policies exist because otherwise the masses would take advantage. But Of course companies large and small always make off-line exceptions

I dont know Ray, but there aren't too many ways to twist or mis-interpret "the delivery date kept moving into the indefinite future with no assurance of start or delivery". I appreciate he chose a path and has moved on. This letter only validates that Ira shares the same cesspool with taylor and goodrich and maietta.

[William]

Mr. Ryan's response was posted for all of the forum members to see. Both sides have been presented so I think we'll go ahead and close this thread for now. As far as his account, it was activated yesterday, if there are any issues to his claims of not being able to post, we're trying to look at it and figure out what it might be.

I think it's pretty obvious from the frame builders list, video list, Builders Spotlight, and the multitude of threads celebrating all the different builders and companies out there, this forum plays no favorites. We do appreciate honest discussion, the good, the bad, and the ugly of it, that's what communities do.






William