Group Riding - Drafting and Leading

[Splash]

On my recent event, I hooked up into a small group for around 40kms.

I was taking turns in leading the group and I found myself always leading just before a hill crest and having to shoulder/buff/lead the downhill stretch and then I would be passed at the bottom.

I found this to occur on all my previous Group rides too. I believe this is more than just coincidence and believe I am being setup by the other riders to allow this to occur.

I love to lead and will always share the pain and lead in in spurts when I can.

But, I want to know what tactic is being employed here by the other group riders and ask how i can plan ahead (and before hill crest) so that i do not lead on the downhill and draft some other riders down hill for a change?



Splash

[msl819]

Not sure if this is you but we have a couple of guys here who like to press up the hill and when they crest they want to sit and coast down. At 215ish it is not long before gravity sends me past them. If they are not going to pedal going down I am not braking to sit in. I can hold momentum much better when I ride with the hills rather than against them. It may not be that you are being set up just that you ride the hills different than the guys in the group. It seems to me most of the guys I am referencing prefer to ride alone and are not used to thinking about the other 10-12 guys behind them. Riding solo is different than in a good group working together.

[Ti Designs]

Hit & quit. The problem with most group rides is that all the guys equate the length of their pull with the length of their - er, let's just say they stay on the front too long... The point of a paceline is that it can go faster than an individual because the person on front is doing 30% more work for very short periods of time. So the guy on the front is above his threshold, the only thing that allows this to work is taking a short pull and getting back in. Going up hills the pulls can get a bit longer because the effect of the draft is diminished with the speed. Going down hill, the pulls need to be super short because it takes so much extra energy at that speed.

As for controlling where you are in a paceline, or controlling the paceline itself, that takes practice and experience. Step 1 is gaining awareness of what's going on around you. Newer riders tend to focus on what's directly in front of them. From your description, I would guess that's where you are. The more drafting and rotating in line becomes a background task, the more you start noticing who's where and doing what. It takes time, no amount of advice is going to get you past that.

[dekindy]

The plain truth is that flat land favors the rider with the most strength and hills favor the rider with the best strength to weight ratio. The hills obviously separate that out. If you need to stroke your ego tell yourself you could drop them on the flats if you wanted to. Sorry, but that is my opinion. If it means anything I am in the same boat; except I am honest with myself and admit that I can't drop them on the flats either. The good news is that based upon your current ability; improving your conditioning, losing some weight, and with some strategic riding you can probably hang in.

[Splash]

Thanks for replies.

I admit I am still in the beginner stage of group riding, and have ridden in around 12 group rides so far in my fledgling cycling 'career'.

I ride solo a lot and love attacking hills, it's just me and my body (certainly no ego). Should I quell that desire in group rides to conserve my energy and allow other to lead on the down hill?


SPlash

[malcolm]

Hit & quit. The problem with most group rides is that all the guys equate the length of their pull with the length of their - er, let's just say they stay on the front too long... The point of a paceline is that it can go faster than an individual because the person on front is doing 30% more work for very short periods of time. So the guy on the front is above his threshold, the only thing that allows this to work is taking a short pull and getting back in. Going up hills the pulls can get a bit longer because the effect of the draft is diminished with the speed. Going down hill, the pulls need to be super short because it takes so much extra energy at that speed.

As for controlling where you are in a paceline, or controlling the paceline itself, that takes practice and experience. Step 1 is gaining awareness of what's going on around you. Newer riders tend to focus on what's directly in front of them. From your description, I would guess that's where you are. The more drafting and rotating in line becomes a background task, the more you start noticing who's where and doing what. It takes time, no amount of advice is going to get you past that.

Good advice

Remember it's a PACEline, maintain the pace. I don't ride in groups anymore, but way back when I was interested in that sort of stuff we took the time to teach new riders and explain the expectations. Nothing is worse than the guy up front that takes off or doesn't know when to rotate off. A good functioning line no one should be up front for long.

[Splash]

so, any tips for not leading the group before the hill crest?

Splash

[dekindy]

The rule of thumb that we developed for our group rides and that I have always strictly adhered to is: You don't belong in a group that you cannot lead. Taking reasonable pulls and even skipping an occasional pull is acceptable depending on the group and strategic riding of the course is okay. Most of the guys are training and riding hard and are more concerned with you holding up or breaking up the group than the duration or place on the route of your pulls.

The fact that you are asking these questions bodes very well for you indeed and makes your chances of becoming a welcome and then permanent member of the group. Some conversations with the "group leader" would be appropriate and beneficial now that you have some experience under your belt.

If it turns out you don't quite have the conditioning to ride with this group don't despair and find another that you can work well in. You can always come back and will get even more respect because of your decision and hard work.

I am not a racer, am below average athletically, and 55-years old and on top of that am cautious. I drop off groups well before most other riders would as the last thing I want to do is take someone else down or wreck myself because I am over extended ability wise. I frequently end up riding by myself but it feels good when I am able to increase my conditioning and hang on with groups longer and faster.

Good rule of thumb is that if you have reservations about whether you can take your next pull, cannot close gaps or even if you do close the gap are too tired to hang on is a good time to take thoughtful stock of whether you should stick with or drop off the group that day.

[dekindy]

Thanks for replies.

I admit I am still in the beginner stage of group riding, and have ridden in around 12 group rides so far in my fledgling cycling 'career'.

I ride solo a lot and love attacking hills, it's just me and my body (certainly no ego). Should I quell that desire in group rides to conserve my energy and allow other to lead on the down hill?


SPlash

If hills are your challenge than being near the front approaching and going up the hill reduces your chance of being dropped. It really depends on what helps you improve your conditioning or if sticking with your group is the main priority. Do you need higher paced longer rides or interval training to improve your conditioning.?

[FlashUNC]

Rotate off at the top when you crest the hill. Let someone else do the work downhill.

Decent rule of thumb and a general polite one -- don't rotate off the front at the bottom of a hill.

Ti-Designs nailed it though, don't try for a monster pull, explode and be useless the rest of the ride.

[happycampyer]

so, any tips for not leading the group before the hill crest?

SplashBack off and let someone else go over the hill first?

[bcroslin]

Back off and let someone else go over the hill first?

DING, DING, DING - WE HAVE A WINNER

As you approach the hill take a short pull and get off the front. If no one will come around, pull all the way over to force someone to pull around you.

A common training ride tactic here in FL is to hang the guy on the front out to dry and then attack him going up a bridge or hill. Matter of fact it happened to me tonight and I nearly lost a lung bridging up to the jerks that stuck it to me. :)

[jimoots]

so, any tips for not leading the group before the hill crest?

Splash

Know the route, know the amount of time the others will spend on the front and plan accordingly.

If you don't know the route, then you're flying blind and just have to take it as it comes. You can always take a short turn to avoid cresting a hill or whatever too. There's no magic to it just common sense.

And as the others have said you really shouldn't be spending enough time on the front to be getting dropped unless they are seriously ratcheting up the pace. Even if that means taking shorter turns than the others, that's what you gotta do. It's not great on the ego but I'd rather not get dropped TBH.

[jimoots]

DING, DING, DING - WE HAVE A WINNER

As you approach the hill take a short pull and get off the front. If no one will come around, pull all the way over to force someone to pull around you.

A common training ride tactic here in FL is to hang the guy on the front out to dry and then attack him going up a bridge or hill. Matter of fact it happened to me tonight and I nearly lost a lung bridging up to the jerks that stuck it to me. :)

Sounds like guys in Florida like to hang themselves out to dry :P

[aramis]

Good rule of thumb is that if you have reservations about whether you can take your next pull, cannot close gaps or even if you do close the gap are too tired to hang on is a good time to take thoughtful stock of whether you should stick with or drop off the group that day.

That sounds like a great way to stay slow!

I don't mind the person that is barely hanging on at all if they don't mess up the rotation. If they look dead but hung on with the group I'll give them kudos at the end of the ride. If a someone opens a gap, then someone will fill it, not the end of the world.

No one minded me when I was barely hanging on. Then, after a little while you start taking short pulls. Then you start dragging lazy people around (just kidding, sort of). It's all part of the progression. If you never join a group where you can barely hang on, you won't push yourself.

[Shortsocks]

Back off and let someone else go over the hill first?

Lol.
I generally always take over on the front when it comes to climbs. Specially long climbs. People just get out of my way and I take the lead and when the hill ends I always go to the back. I'm always the slowest descender in a group. No good to anyone on the down.
I'm just not strong on a flat. It's fact. I suck. I'm just not strong. That's why I like riding with groups that aren't strangers...everyone seems to know their place and it just works out. It does seem that every-time I join a new group they just TRY to drop me, and a lot of the times they do, because I suck at flats. And Texas(Dallas) is flat.

[Shortsocks]

That sounds like a great way to stay slow!

I don't mind the person that is barely hanging on at all if they don't mess up the rotation. If they look dead but hung on with the group I'll give them kudos at the end of the ride.

Super classy btw. This really is good for a cyclist's self esteem and they generally pay that back somehow down the line. Thanks man.

[Dead Man]

Take the pain. It's all training, right?

[shovelhd]

Rotate off at the top when you crest the hill. Let someone else do the work downhill.

Decent rule of thumb and a general polite one -- don't rotate off the front at the bottom of a hill.

Ti-Designs nailed it though, don't try for a monster pull, explode and be useless the rest of the ride.

Hang back and skip a pull so you don't end up on the front when you don't want to be.

I think the group is trying to tell you something. Don't be the guy who is disrupting the paceline because they have something to prove. At this stage in your career you should be watching what everyone else is doing and concentrating on matching speeds and learning to ride smoothly.

[Peter P.]

so, any tips for not leading the group before the hill crest?

Splash

Of course. Deliberately pull off and slow down to force them to pass you well before the hill crest. The others in this group either are heavier than you so they easily pass on the descent, or they're "speed junkies" and the descent is like dessert or a carnival ride. I find their style of riding very erratic.

Also, by forcing yourself to the back you'll be able to observe how these people really behave from before the hill crests to the point where they would normally pass you if you were leading. You'll gain a psychological insight into the other riders.

[dekindy]

That sounds like a great way to stay slow!

I don't mind the person that is barely hanging on at all if they don't mess up the rotation. If they look dead but hung on with the group I'll give them kudos at the end of the ride. If a someone opens a gap, then someone will fill it, not the end of the world.

No one minded me when I was barely hanging on. Then, after a little while you start taking short pulls. Then you start dragging lazy people around (just kidding, sort of). It's all part of the progression. If you never join a group where you can barely hang on, you won't push yourself.

Might be okay after he gets more experience but he needs to understand the basics first. Soon he will be able to determine where it makes sense to push it to maintain with the group. The concept of not hanging until the last gasp it not good practice and and if not practiced is a good reason for the group to intentionally start shedding you. It only takes a short jump to drop a rider that could be easily maintained in the group if they are so inclined. Which kind of rider do you want to be? Who knows, maybe one of the faster riders will have a day where he wants to go slower and drop back with and work with you. It happens but you have to cultivate it.

[saab2000]

Starting a climb at or near the front allows you to drift back during the climb and not lose contact with the group as it crests the hill. If you're at the back there is the very real danger of being gapped and having to chase and never making it back on.

This trick served this old racer well many a time. Flatland pace lines are harder than hilly ones if you ask me.

If it's a real rotating paceline with discipline it's OK to go to the back. If it's an unruly bunch stay near the front, both for safety and to not get gapped.

[shovelhd]

Sag climbing is one thing in races, where minding the gaps is part of your job. In a paceline on a group ride, it's disruptive and annoying.

[regularguy412]

Disclaimer: I didn't read all the posts.

I'm not the 'best' climber, myself. I'm OK, but there are usually others who can do it better. I'm not bad on the flats and I generally have a good aero tuck, so I descend a little better than others. That said, my rule of thumb is: Either give up the front WELL in advance of a hill so that you have a bit of time to recover before climbing OR stay on the front and ride it as you will. If someone or a few WANT to go faster up the hill, make them TAKE it (the front) from you. If or when they do that, then dig with all you have to stay on wheels. Never, ever, ever give up the front at the base of a climb right after you've taken your pull just to get there.

Mike in AR:beer:

[sitzmark]

...

I was taking turns in leading the group and I found myself always leading just before a hill crest and having to shoulder/buff/lead the downhill stretch and then I would be passed at the bottom.
...
But, I want to know what tactic is being employed here ... Splash

If I'm reading this correctly, your ride mates are "tapping out" mid-climb when you're #2 and expecting you to shoulder the remainder. If you're #2 climbing every hill, you're being played. If it just seems like every hill, then manage those situations.

In the groups I ride with there's an understanding that leaders into a (relatively short, moderate grade) hill will take the whole banana, unless they totally bonk. At the crest, they've done their work so pull out and rotate to the back. Enjoy the recovery time. Even if your pull is short to get to the top, do the same.

In terrain with longer and steeper hills, the group needs to decide if it's a no-drop, re-group, or every-man-for-himself ride and organize accordingly. If there's a subgroup feeling particularly strong and wanting to hammer, they should take off on their own and let the remaining group ride with whatever objectives were set for the ride. If you're the odd man out and struggling to keep up, hang as long as you can then let the group go. If it's a reoccurring ride, you'll get stronger and be able to hang longer each time.

If you're in a group with a specific time or speed objective and can't pull up to that level, they won't want you taking many pulls - especially not long ones. Some will tell you and in other groups you might have to figure it out on your own when riders consistently pull around you to take the lead.

Most of all enjoy the ride(s).

[carpediemracing]

I was taking turns in leading the group and I found myself always leading just before a hill crest and having to shoulder/buff/lead the downhill stretch and then I would be passed at the bottom.

My first reaction is that you went up the hill harder than everyone else wants to go so they let you pull. I've been behind riders like this all the time. It helps that I stink at climbing so everyone in front of me on a climb is going harder than I want to go.

Remember that going up hill means the drafting effect goes to close to zero, if not zero. Therefore you're not helping anyone go faster, you're just setting a mental target for them to follow.

This is why the Tour is decided on the hills (as far as riding goes, not including crashes, sickness, etc). On hills the draft effect is lower (at our normal human speeds it's close to zero) so the riders are on their own, even though they're in a group.

Let the others know you're done. Simply ease up, wiggle your elbow (on the side you want the riders to pass, wiggle the right if you want the riders to pass on your right), and move to the other side a bit (to the left in this case).

Then soft pedal until you're going coasting speed then coast.

You may not realize it but the riders behind you may be working pretty hard and if you don't ease up they won't pass you, no matter what your intent.

[Ti Designs]

Splash,

So many of your questions are ones I would never want to ask on a forum. For example, your question about using the leg press. That happens to be the basis for my winter strength program, but so much of that is about form which I can't teach here, and it's can be so dangerous without proper form, so I wasn't going to tough that one. This question is a lot like that, the only good response is "let's go find a group ride and see what happens". An experienced rider helping you on the bike is worth a million responses on the internet...

With that said, there's a place on your profile where you can add your location. Your post says you're from nowhere. I'll admit that I often feel like I'm going nowhere, so maybe we can start there and ride somewhere???

[Splash]

Lol.
I generally always take over on the front when it comes to climbs. Specially long climbs. People just get out of my way and I take the lead and when the hill ends I always go to the back. I'm always the slowest descender in a group. No good to anyone on the down.
I'm just not strong on a flat. It's fact. I suck. I'm just not strong. That's why I like riding with groups that aren't strangers...everyone seems to know their place and it just works out. It does seem that every-time I join a new group they just TRY to drop me, and a lot of the times they do, because I suck at flats. And Texas(Dallas) is flat.

Interesting.

I am keen to learn more why / how riders can be strong in hills but weak on flats - or visa versa?

Is this a muscle group thing, or what?

Splash

[HenryA]

Imagine that your purpose is to get the whole bunch to a distant destination all in one group as quickly as possible. No one left behind, and not taking any longer than necessary. That is pretty much the purpose of riding a paceline.

Some riders will be stronger on the flats, some on rolling terrain, some on steep hills. In each situation, the stronger riders need to accommodate the weaker so that the group remains intact. Some riders will be more fit or just plain faster and others slower or less fit. Someone may be getting a cold, someone else may be coming back from a crash. But the overarching goal is to get everyone to the destination as a group and as quickly as possible. That means that all have to be aware of what's happening with the group together and each person individually.

That's the ideal situation, but not what happens in real life in a typical group ride without organization and purpose - which is most of them. There you can best regulate your own behavior, and probably not the that of other's. The way to fit in when you are on the front more than you like is to pull left and soft pedal. Simply let the next guy in line have a turn while you slide back to the rear of the group or some other happy place to meld back in.

The more this happens (with all taking a turn) the smoother the ride can be. While you're back in the pack, watch all around in front of you and try to catch the dynamic of what's happening with the individuals and the group. When you get to the front again, take a comfortable pull (comfortable for you and the group) and then slide off again.

When the group goes harder, you go harder too. When the group is struggling and maybe slowing, you slow too. The hardest part to get in your head is that the paceline is not about you. It is about the group. You just have to do your part to contribute where you can and hope that others get it and do the same. (Absent proper organization and prior agreement as to the conduct and purpose of the ride.)

So ride in the front when you want and pull off when you should and remember that it's not about you and it does not matter that you are on the front "leading" or sitting in, or at the very back. The big guys don't have to be killed off on the climbs and the climbers don't have to be ridden off your wheel cause you're so macho. And the other way around.

[shovelhd]

Interesting.

I am keen to learn more why / how riders can be strong in hills but weak on flats - or visa versa?

Is this a muscle group thing, or what?

Splash

From a racing perspective, I train for mostly flat criteriums, not very hilly road races. These are different objectives with different training regimens.

[malcolm]

Interesting.

I am keen to learn more why / how riders can be strong in hills but weak on flats - or visa versa?

Is this a muscle group thing, or what?

Splash

It's all about weight and watts. A light weight guy that's strong will climb better than a muscular very strong guy who may be faster than the climber on the flats. It's harder to move all that mass up the hill.

[saab2000]

Sag climbing is one thing in races, where minding the gaps is part of your job. In a paceline on a group ride, it's disruptive and annoying.

Pacelines on group rides pretty much disintegrate up any real hill. Mostly strong guys gravitate to the front and others drift backwards a bit.

It's the natural dynamic of groups with riders of varying strength.

[bcroslin]

Interesting.

I am keen to learn more why / how riders can be strong in hills but weak on flats - or visa versa?

Is this a muscle group thing, or what?

Splash

Power to weight ratio. This site does a pretty good job of explaining (http://www.climbbybike.com/cycling-power-to-weight-ratio.asp) what you're up against. Its a body-type thing more than anything else.

I'm 5'11, 165 and Im all legs. I approach every hill like a sprint and I often will go to the front at the bottom of the climb and go as hard as I can for 3/4's of the climb and then start to drift towards the back. If I time it right the group goes by and I draft down the hill and I can coast and recover.

I ride with a guy who's my height but about 140 wet and he will stay in the saddle and pedal easy the whole way up the climb and barely break a sweat. He will pull us up a climb and then all of us larger guys will fly past him on the descent. If he's feeling feisty he can drop us on the climbs and then we make him pay on the flats.

[zap]

Pacelines on group rides pretty much disintegrate up any real hill. Mostly strong guys gravitate to the front and others drift backwards a bit.

It's the natural dynamic of groups with riders of varying strength.

Put a tandem in the mix………..that throws off a few riders.

:banana:

[saab2000]

Put a tandem in the mix………..that throws off a few riders.

:banana:

That's the truth, especially on flat roads where you can ride the rest of them off your wheel!

[shovelhd]

Pacelines on group rides pretty much disintegrate up any real hill. Mostly strong guys gravitate to the front and others drift backwards a bit.

It's the natural dynamic of groups with riders of varying strength.

This totally depends on the group.

[malcolm]

We must of done it different back when. Our goal was to keep it together as long as possible. Loosely agreed on a pace, no one pulled longer than a minute or so if that long (of course depending on the number of folks) it was ok to rotate immediately off if you couldn't hold the pace but if you couldn't recover you were expected to drop off the line. Downhill guy in front stayed there and maintained n speed everyone could keep up with, same with going up. Resume once off the ascent/descent. Always some fall apart on the climb but the descent should be controlled enough to catch up or back off a touch at the bottom, once regrouped back up to speed and go. If you were taking off on the front and blowing up the line or couldn't do your share you were directed to another group or kindly asked to work together or work somewhere else.

[HenryA]

We must of done it different back when. Our goal was to keep it together as long as possible. Loosely agreed on a pace, no one pulled longer than a minute or so if that long (of course depending on the number of folks) it was ok to rotate immediately off if you couldn't hold the pace but if you couldn't recover you were expected to drop off the line. Downhill guy in front stayed there and maintained n speed everyone could keep up with, same with going up. Resume once off the ascent/descent. Always some fall apart on the climb but the descent should be controlled enough to catch up or back off a touch at the bottom, once regrouped back up to speed and go. If you were taking off on the front and blowing up the line or couldn't do your share you were directed to another group or kindly asked to work together or work somewhere else.

^this^
X100

[carpediemracing]

Interesting.

I am keen to learn more why / how riders can be strong in hills but weak on flats - or visa versa?

Is this a muscle group thing, or what?

Splash

It's basically genetics and, to some extent, training.

As a peaky type rider (good sprint, whether uphill or flat), no aerobic talent whatsoever (can't TT or climb, i.e. no good at efforts over a minute or so), I will take a stab at answering your question.

My FTP, the power level I can hold for a theoretical hour (based on a 20 minute test) is about 210-220 watts. Well it was in 2010, right now it's probably in the 200-210w range, based on the numbers I see in races. That's about enough to go 18 mph on a flat road, maybe a bit faster. My best 40k TT ever was 23.5 mph, and I had a TT bike, helmet, skinsuit, disk wheel, aero bars, and I trained on the TT bike for much of the season.

That 200w would be fine for climbing with the pros if I weighed in the 40 kg range (to get 5 w/kg). However I weigh about 80 kg or 175 lbs. This gives me a really low w/kg, about 2.8 w/kg. That's considered "untrained" or "Cat 5 aka entry level" in the typical w/kg chart (https://s3.amazonaws.com/cyclinganalytics/static/cycling-power-table.png). This means that I climb as fast as an untrained rider, give or take. That's about right - in 2009 I had a non-racing 55 year old woman ask me if I was really trying hard when she and the rest of the group rode away from me on a moderate climb. I was absolutely redlined and simply could not follow. Maybe I could have gone another minute or two but not the 10 minutes or so to the top of the climb.

So what if I was, say, 50 kg, 112 lbs? Well, luckily for me I started racing when I was really skinny and I gained weight steadily until I hit 112 lbs after 7 years of racing (I was 21 by then so reasonably mature physiologically). By then I had found out that I could sprint really well, pretty much regardless of what training I did. However I got dropped on the hills like clockwork. Aerobically my power was too low. I could do short hills with the others, like 30 seconds or even a minute, but after that my lack of sustainable power got me dropped like a bad habit.

However on flat roads I'm more in my element. I have good peak power so I can get going if I need to. In a group it's even better. I can draft so my typical 150-170 watt training ride (15-17 mph) will net me a much higher overall speed (I did a crit where I averaged 175w and 27.5 mph until half a lap to go - Somerville Cat 2, 2011 - I had to ease for a crash and rode the last half lap in the wind). Last Tuesday I averaged about 170w and won a B training race (meaning for newer or weaker riders). I hit my highest 10 minute power number in forever while doing so - I was literally half a minute away from quitting a number of times during the race.

My top speeds on the flat have been the same since I was about 19-20 until about 35. At that age I gained a bit of weight and stopped training as much due to outside events. I've never returned to the speeds I hit at 35 years old or younger, I'm down about 20% in top speed right now (about to turn 47). I've raced regularly every season since 1983.

Climbing has always been difficult for me. I thought I'd be a good climber - when I turned 18 I was 103 lbs and I thought for sure I would be climbing with the good riders. Never happened, I was always the first to get shelled. Even in 2010, my best year since about 1992 or so, I was struggling on the hills in the easy local non-racing Monday group rides. I upgraded to Cat 2 (first time ever) yet I couldn't stay with non-racing riders on hills on that Monday ride.

If you were on a group ride I was on I'd let you pull to your heart's content. Up hills I'd hope to hang on. On the descents I'd probably have to use some of it to catch back up, if I could, but then I'd let you pull if you looked like you still wanted to pedal. I'd take my pulls on the flats, maybe lead on a descent or two, but the reality is that you're probably way more fit than me so I'd let you do way more work.

[dpk501]

What happened to the good old flick your elbow rule?

[shovelhd]

We must of done it different back when. Our goal was to keep it together as long as possible. Loosely agreed on a pace, no one pulled longer than a minute or so if that long (of course depending on the number of folks) it was ok to rotate immediately off if you couldn't hold the pace but if you couldn't recover you were expected to drop off the line. Downhill guy in front stayed there and maintained n speed everyone could keep up with, same with going up. Resume once off the ascent/descent. Always some fall apart on the climb but the descent should be controlled enough to catch up or back off a touch at the bottom, once regrouped back up to speed and go. If you were taking off on the front and blowing up the line or couldn't do your share you were directed to another group or kindly asked to work together or work somewhere else.

Some of the rides I do are a lot like what you describe. The pace is reasonable enough that the group can stay together without regrouping constantly. Everyone looks out for each other. No drop unless negotiated. There are challenges along the way, which forces selections, but the wait to regroup is always less than a few minutes.

However, I have seen a marked change in some group rides in the past few years where the majority of the ride becomes one big challenge. New riders get discouraged as those that are under time constraints or are counting on the ride for training stress dominate the group behavior. It's unfortunate. I am not talking about hammerfest rides where it is understood that the group will shatter and you will end up wherever you end up and need to know your way home. I'm talking about rides where the parameters are discussed at the start but as soon as someone or a small group gets antsy all hell breaks loose. The catalyst can be experienced riders who are putting their own desires above what was agreed upon, or it can be new riders that don't know any better. Whatever the reason it can be an unpleasant experience.

[Splash]

fascinating stuff - thanks guys.

what type of rider was cadel evans - more flats guy or more hills guy?


splash

[shovelhd]

Was? Did he get hit by a truck or something?

[Joachim]

fascinating stuff - thanks guys.

what type of rider was cadel evans - more flats guy or more hills guy?


splash

Cadel was a mountain biker.

[Splash]

... I understand he may be retiring very soon (or has retired?)....


SPlash

[saab2000]

Cadel Evans is a TdF winner and as such excels on all terrains. His 'group' is the lead pack of the pro peloton and different standards apply. :D

[carpediemracing]

fascinating stuff - thanks guys.

what type of rider was cadel evans - more flats guy or more hills guy?

splash

I have a few of the "full DVD" Tour sets, and one of them is 2011, Cadel's Tour. One thing I noticed is that on the climbs he seemed to be very good about staying sheltered from the wind. Earlier I wrote that hills usually negate the draft, and that's true for us mortals, but for the pros, at that razor's edge level, there is a small but significant benefit to drafting others. Nowadays you even hear some riders talk about how they couldn't go because of the wind etc on the climb.

At any rate when I watched some of the clips I could see where the flags were pointing and Cadel seemed to be sheltering better than the others.

To put pros vs regular in perspective it took the pros about 38 minutes to go up Palomar Mountain. It took me about 1:15 to do the same climb. For me drafting would be virtually meaningless. For them they all followed one another because at their speeds there was a benefit to following wheels.

Cadel is not a flat lander per se. He's powerful, yes, but not like a sprinter. He performs well in the mountains and some of the shorter steep hills. On his own he is a reasonably good time trialer but the best time trialers will beat him handily.

One final thought. Tyler Hamilton mentioned this in print. A cyclist's strength lays in their blood, not as much in their muscles, at least for aerobic efforts. Tyler says in his book that he did great in a race (won a stage race I think) then had blood pulled (to be reinserted during the Tour). The next race he entered he was so bad it was embarrassing. He was essentially the same level fitness (muscles, blood vessels, capillaries, heart, etc) but he was missing some blood. Aerobically that was the difference. It's not muscles, not the raw torque on the pedal, it's being able to do that power 90-110 times a minute for 30 or 60 or 240 minutes. He also says in the book that he reinserted blood strategically after breaking his collarbone and I think that's when he went on a solo break and held off a hard chasing field for many hours. This blood doping (and related to it is EPO use) is a game changer for cycling and other aerobic-based sports because it changes your genetic base level aerobic capacity significantly.

[bcroslin]

However, I have seen a marked change in some group rides in the past few years where the majority of the ride becomes one big challenge. New riders get discouraged as those that are under time constraints or are counting on the ride for training stress dominate the group behavior. It's unfortunate. I am not talking about hammerfest rides where it is understood that the group will shatter and you will end up wherever you end up and need to know your way home. I'm talking about rides where the parameters are discussed at the start but as soon as someone or a small group gets antsy all hell breaks loose. The catalyst can be experienced riders who are putting their own desires above what was agreed upon, or it can be new riders that don't know any better. Whatever the reason it can be an unpleasant experience.

This perfectly describes the training rides here in St Pete. We start out in a pace line with a smooth rotation and then some dude (usually the same handful of guys) decides he's going to attack and the rest of the ride becomes a sufferfest. We regroup once over the 40 miles but sometimes all it takes is one guy feeling good and even the regroup gets screwed up. Every bridge is an attack and that screws things up because the pace line breaks down because no one wants to get hung out to dry. If you can hang you definitely get fast but sometimes I want to just have a nice tempo ride with my friends.

We lost a guy last year who was the glue on the training ride. He would keep everyone in check and coach the new guys to not go chasing down the one-man suicide attacks because he knew we'd pull them back if we worked together. His death was sudden and our rides changed once he was gone. Total bummer. Anytime we have a smooth rotation for more than 4 or 5 miles we always talk about how Johnny would have loved the ride. You really need one or two people on the group ride that are willing to coach and encourage the new riders and occasionally give the experienced riders hell when they get out of line.

[beeatnik]

However, I have seen a marked change in some group rides in the past few years where the majority of the ride becomes one big challenge. New riders get discouraged as those that are under time constraints or are counting on the ride for training stress dominate the group behavior. It's unfortunate. I am not talking about hammerfest rides where it is understood that the group will shatter and you will end up wherever you end up and need to know your way home. I'm talking about rides where the parameters are discussed at the start but as soon as someone or a small group gets antsy all hell breaks loose. The catalyst can be experienced riders who are putting their own desires above what was agreed upon, or it can be new riders that don't know any better. Whatever the reason it can be an unpleasant experience.

Yep.

One of the ride leaders at the Rose Bowl ride, simultaneously shouts orders for short pulls and keeping the paceline tight to the 5-10 strong riders who are always in front, and praises the guys who go off the front once in 10 laps (31 miles) surging like idiots, attacking, blowing themselves up and never to be seen again. "Nice pull!"

Big fast rides are controlled chaos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpY4BDgU6lw

http://www.socalcycling.com/Group%20Rides/seasonal/rose_bowl.htm

[shovelhd]

Maybe, but they don't have to be illegal and stupidly dangerous. What a bunch of tools.

[beeatnik]

What a bunch of tools.

GoPro Heroes

[bcroslin]

Yep.

One of the ride leaders at the Rose Bowl ride, simultaneously shouts orders for short pulls and keeping the paceline tight to the 5-10 strong riders who are always in front, and praises the guys who go off the front once in 10 laps (31 miles) surging like idiots, attacking, blowing themselves up and never to be seen again. "Nice pull!"

Big fast rides are controlled chaos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpY4BDgU6lw

http://www.socalcycling.com/Group%20Rides/seasonal/rose_bowl.htm

3 or 4 abreast and cruising over the double yellow line against traffic. What a mess. We're not angels down here but that crap would not fly on our rides.

[Dead Man]

What the crap good is a paceline if everyone isn't keeping pace in the line?

I guess "group ride" doesn't necessarily mean disciplined paceline, but I just see no other reason to ride with a bunch of other yahoos if you're not going to maintain a well paced paceline. I enjoy good company, but I don't get on a bike for good company.

[shovelhd]

There are plenty of good reasons to ride socially with others. It's not a requirement that Fred races break out.

[Dead Man]

There are plenty of good reasons to ride socially with others. It's not a requirement that Fred races break out.

I'm not talking about races, nor even keeping up- I'm referencing dudes trying to up the pace or break away from the group.

[shovelhd]

You wouldn't understand. You don't get on a bike for good company.

[Splash]

a great thread with lots to digest...

i guess for me now is the question of ideal cadence in group rides...

On Sunday, the guys who i was riding with were shocked at the massive low gear i was constantly using/mashing when they were in their smaller chain ring trying to keep up with me. They did very well and were suprised I matched their speed for along period the entire way with them...

They told me i should ride in the smaller chain ring.

Normally i train and ride most of my time in the larger chain ring and mash.

I need to use the bike computer more to check my cadence.

I understand it is better to ride in a range between 80-100RPM? Why?



SPlash

[bcroslin]

a great thread with lots to digest...

i guess for me now is the question of ideal cadence in group rides...

On Sunday, the guys who i was riding with were shocked at the massive low gear i was constantly using/mashing when they were in their smaller chain ring trying to keep up with me. They did very well and were suprised I matched their speed for along period the entire way with them...

They told me i should ride in the smaller chain ring.

Normally i train and ride most of my time in the larger chain ring and mash.

I need to use the bike computer more to check my cadence.

I understand it is better to ride in a range between 80-100RPM? Why?

SPlash

Mechanical advantage. By spinning a higher cadence your using less effort to propel yourself forward. If you're mashing your way up a hill that's probably part of your issue. Watch a mountain stage of a grand tour and the fastest guys up the climbs are spinning at 100-110 or even higher cadence. I would bet if you pay attention to your cadence you'll find yourself being more comfortable spinning at about 85-95 rpms while maintaing the same speed at your "mashing' cadence.

[giordana93]

a great thread with lots to digest...

i guess for me now is the question of ideal cadence in group rides...

On Sunday, the guys who i was riding with were shocked at the massive low gear i was constantly using/mashing when they were in their smaller chain ring trying to keep up with me. They did very well and were suprised I matched their speed for along period the entire way with them...

They told me i should ride in the smaller chain ring.

Normally i train and ride most of my time in the larger chain ring and mash.

I need to use the bike computer more to check my cadence.

I understand it is better to ride in a range between 80-100RPM? Why?



SPlash

2 reasons. 1, it is easier to accelerate and have tempo changes at higher cadences, like when you need to close a gap or respond to a surge in the line. Think of the power band (torque range) of a car or motor bike-- better to be humming along at higher rpm than lugging, like trying to leave a stop sign in third gear

2. That same humming along taxes your heart a bit more, but saves your legs, so when you really need to make a big effort, your legs will be a bit fresher if all the previous efforts to close gaps, jump back in the line, etc, were done using your aerobic capacity (heart and lungs) which can recover more quickly and with less accumulated fatigue than just muscling a big gear. And here's a third, related item: as you gain fitness and the ability to cruise at a high cadence, your pedaling is more efficient and smooth, so less energy wasted.

I might also add some notes about the op, as I've just recently been riding with a new group that has both the newbies who have no clue but are fairly fast and some of us old farts who aren't as strong as we used to be but know how to ride a good line, and these things have been on my mind. So, a short list of do's and don'ts.

1. When you get to the front, do not surge (unless you are trying to mess things up in the line). Pay attention to the speed of the group before it is your turn and keep it there, or if it was a little slow, *gradually* and smoothly pick up the pace
2. As soon as you get to the front, start counting your pedal strokes. If it is a good, fast line, about 50 strokes is good. 25 if things are flying, or even just "pull through" if you are already close to your limit, which means that as soon as the guy in front of you pulls off and has cleared your rear wheel on his way to the back you can drift on over. 100 stroke pulls are ok too based on conditions (smaller group, slower speed), but unless things are still just warming up, anything longer will have everybody behind getting antsy (unless of course you are just ripping their legs off or have a good reason for a long pull) think about it. How long do you need to recover in line? 100 strokes at 100 rpm is a minute. Multiply that by the number in the group and it might take 10 minutes for you to get back to the front if people just sit up there for a mile.

When your turn is done, make a clear move off the front, with possible elbow flick as sign, but DO NOT slow down too much. Another reason for short pulls is that you are not so wasted when you get off the front that you drop off like a dead fly. If the guy behind you does happen to accelerate, you need to have something left to respond, and in any case you don't want to have to launch a sprint as the end of the line goes by and you try to get back on.

Do not let big gaps (more than a bike length) open up in the line. You don't have to be 3 inches away, but keep it under 2 feet. If you do get too close, NO brakes-- instead get out into the wind, preferably to the inside of the road so you don't go in the ditch.

If a gap does open up and you realize you can not close it, allow anyone drifting back from the front to jump in the line ahead of you (tell them to if need be), and be willing to fill that gap yourself if it happens to be you who has just gotten off the front. Remember, you still have sth left because you took a short pull.

It is fine to be a wheelsucker as you are learning. Stay at the back a couple of feet off the last wheel. As the next rider comes back from the front, let them in front of you. Just tell them to go ahead or even get over on their wheel as they drift back.

Do not "half wheel" if avoidable. Especially at the front. By the same token, if people are half wheeling you when it is your turn at the front, it means either that they are clueless, or that you have spent too long at the front or are going too slowly.

Never, EVER, ride tri bars in line. If the group even allows you to ride a tt bar, stay on the brake wings, not the extended position

Ok, will end there. Need to deliver same message to a few in this new group and had to vent:)

btw, rolling hills are especially tough to gauge tempo, but if you are leading down the hill, get out of the way asap, the momentum of riders with gravity is greater than your effort against wind and you are in the way

[Splash]

thanks

why do i need to get out of the way ASAP if leading down the hill?

If everyone got out of the way down hill, none will be leading at all?

SPlash

[giordana93]

Mechanical advantage. By spinning a higher cadence your using less effort to propel yourself forward. If you're mashing your way up a hill that's probably part of your issue. Watch a mountain stage of a grand tour and the fastest guys up the climbs are spinning at 100-110 or even higher cadence. I would bet if you pay attention to your cadence you'll find yourself being more comfortable spinning at about 85-95 rpms while maintaing the same speed at your "mashing' cadence.

I would definitely NOT aim for 100-110 climbing (unless you are on epo). It is hard to generalize on climbs because steepness and individual strengths come in to play, so you have to train at different cadences to see what works best. But in a paceline on flats and rollers, definitely 85-105

[sitzmark]

thanks

why do i need to get out of the way ASAP if leading down the hill?

If everyone got out of the way down hill, none will be leading at all?

SPlash

get out of the way = stay out of the way. If you are going to pull off at the crest, stay tight to the pace line and (cautiously) fill a gap if it goes by. Signal intention or listen for verbal from rider back before moving back in.

If you stay tight to the pace line and move back when opportunity presents, then those with greater momentum can more easily and more predictably overtake you on the left. If you're wide or "wandering around" you create chaos.

[giordana93]

thanks

why do i need to get out of the way ASAP if leading down the hill?

If everyone got out of the way down hill, none will be leading at all?

SPlash

ok , first, these are general ideas, so let us first assume a homogeneous group. Remember that effort to overcome wind is not linear, it is squared. Twice as fast is four times the effort. In normal wind, flat road, the guy at front is working harder than those behind, but everyone still has to pedal. Going down hill, the group does not even have to pedal because the only resistance is wind, which is being blocked. Unless the guy up front is just flying, he is literally in the way of the group trying to fall down the hill, because the only thing to slow them down is the wind. By getting off the front the lead guy exposes the next one to the wind, who in turn should get out of the way. Now this is assuming a homogeneous group (equal fitness and training goals on that day) and a speed and grade that dictate the scenario. A fit guy with good leg speed could up the pace maybe enough to do a normal turn if the descent is not so steep or there are some bends in the road, but everyone else should do a very short turn (even if they feel great because everyone feels great going downhill or downwind) or just "pull through" as described above (get over right after the previous rider has gotten far enough back so you can pull off to the left). btw, this is also how a double paceline in a cross wind works. Look that one up.

As said above, rollers are tricky because you have to speed up enough to avoid slowing the group, but you must not surge too much either, which breaks up rhythm and opens up gaps. This is where experience helps--which will also give you that ability to smoothly go from 90 to 110 rpm while seated, and this is one of the places where that skill comes in handy.

If this all sounds complicated, don't worry. The best thing to do is keep your head up, ride within yourself and pay attention. You will soon know who does what and when, what gear to be in on that particular stretch of road, etc. it's also ok to get screamed at or at least talked to by some elders. They, one hopes, just want everyone to be safe and learn. Riding in a group should be fun (yet painful when the big guns are trying to peak for a race)

[regularguy412]

2 reasons. 1, it is easier to accelerate and have tempo changes at higher cadences, like when you need to close a gap or respond to a surge in the line. Think of the power band (torque range) of a car or motor bike-- better to be humming along at higher rpm than lugging, like trying to leave a stop sign in third gear

2. That same humming along taxes your heart a bit more, but saves your legs, so when you really need to make a big effort, your legs will be a bit fresher if all the previous efforts to close gaps, jump back in the line, etc, were done using your aerobic capacity (heart and lungs) which can recover more quickly and with less accumulated fatigue than just muscling a big gear. And here's a third, related item: as you gain fitness and the ability to cruise at a high cadence, your pedaling is more efficient and smooth, so less energy wasted.

I might also add some notes about the op, as I've just recently been riding with a new group that has both the newbies who have no clue but are fairly fast and some of us old farts who aren't as strong as we used to be but know how to ride a good line, and these things have been on my mind. So, a short list of do's and don'ts.

1. When you get to the front, do not surge (unless you are trying to mess things up in the line). Pay attention to the speed of the group before it is your turn and keep it there, or if it was a little slow, *gradually* and smoothly pick up the pace
2. As soon as you get to the front, start counting your pedal strokes. If it is a good, fast line, about 50 strokes is good. 25 if things are flying, or even just "pull through" if you are already close to your limit, which means that as soon as the guy in front of you pulls off and has cleared your rear wheel on his way to the back you can drift on over. 100 stroke pulls are ok too based on conditions (smaller group, slower speed), but unless things are still just warming up, anything longer will have everybody behind getting antsy (unless of course you are just ripping their legs off or have a good reason for a long pull) think about it. How long do you need to recover in line? 100 strokes at 100 rpm is a minute. Multiply that by the number in the group and it might take 10 minutes for you to get back to the front if people just sit up there for a mile.

When your turn is done, make a clear move off the front, with possible elbow flick as sign, but DO NOT slow down too much. Another reason for short pulls is that you are not so wasted when you get off the front that you drop off like a dead fly. If the guy behind you does happen to accelerate, you need to have something left to respond, and in any case you don't want to have to launch a sprint as the end of the line goes by and you try to get back on.

Do not let big gaps (more than a bike length) open up in the line. You don't have to be 3 inches away, but keep it under 2 feet. If you do get too close, NO brakes-- instead get out into the wind, preferably to the inside of the road so you don't go in the ditch.

If a gap does open up and you realize you can not close it, allow anyone drifting back from the front to jump in the line ahead of you (tell them to if need be), and be willing to fill that gap yourself if it happens to be you who has just gotten off the front. Remember, you still have sth left because you took a short pull.

It is fine to be a wheelsucker as you are learning. Stay at the back a couple of feet off the last wheel. As the next rider comes back from the front, let them in front of you. Just tell them to go ahead or even get over on their wheel as they drift back.

Do not "half wheel" if avoidable. Especially at the front. By the same token, if people are half wheeling you when it is your turn at the front, it means either that they are clueless, or that you have spent too long at the front or are going too slowly.

Never, EVER, ride tri bars in line. If the group even allows you to ride a tt bar, stay on the brake wings, not the extended position

Ok, will end there. Need to deliver same message to a few in this new group and had to vent:)

btw, rolling hills are especially tough to gauge tempo, but if you are leading down the hill, get out of the way asap, the momentum of riders with gravity is greater than your effort against wind and you are in the way

Had to quote this, cuz man there is a lot of good info in this post above.

One other thing to work on, tho not obligated to do -- be aware of the wind direction as you are pulling off the front after your turn, or for that matter, while you ARE taking your turn. If the wind is quartering or maybe blowing directly from the right side, position yourself near the white line or slightly into the breakdown lane (provided there is not too much trash there). This affords the riders behind you the maximum flexibility to echelon off to the left side behind you. if you ride 'down the middle', some may end up 'in the gutter' next to the center line without much protection. If you're racing or if this is your intent, then go for it. But if it's a friendly group, your 'friends' may let you know it.

Another thing to note (which unfortunately many riders DO NOT KNOW) is to pull off to the side the wind is blowing FROM and drift back on that side. I know in some groups it's smart to 'always' pull off to the left, but there's more to be gained by the group as a whole by sliding to the back on the windward side. One last thing: be aware of the what the wind direction WILL be AFTER a turn in the road (usually a turn ONTO another road from the current road) as the echelon (if any) may have to regroup on the 'opposite' side of one another. This situation is made additionally hard, because many riders are not accustomed to changing the rotation direction (of the paceline, clockwise to counter-clockwise, and vice versa) and the echelon draft (slightly to the right or slightly to the left of the wheel in front of you).

(this advice is based on USA roads where cars drive on the right side of the road -- lefthand drive cars)

Sorry for the long post.

Mike in AR:beer:

[giordana93]

Had to quote this, cuz man there is a lot of good info in this post above.

One other thing to work on, tho not obligated to do -- be aware of the wind direction as you are pulling off the front after your turn, or for that matter, while you ARE taking your turn. If the wind is quartering or maybe blowing directly from the right side, position yourself near the white line or slightly into the breakdown lane (provided there is not too much trash there). This affords the riders behind you the maximum flexibility to echelon off to the left side behind you. if you ride 'down the middle', some may end up 'in the gutter' next to the center line without much protection. If you're racing or if this is your intent, then go for it. But if it's a friendly group, your 'friends' may let you know it.

Another thing to note (which unfortunately many riders DO NOT KNOW) is to pull off to the side the wind is blowing FROM and drift back on that side. I know in some groups it's smart to 'always' pull off to the left, but there's more to be gained by the group as a whole by sliding to the back on the windward side. One last thing: be aware of the what the wind direction WILL be AFTER a turn in the road (usually a turn ONTO another road from the current road) as the echelon (if any) may have to regroup on the 'opposite' side of one another. This situation is made additionally hard, because many riders are not accustomed to changing the rotation direction (of the paceline, clockwise to counter-clockwise, and vice versa) and the echelon draft (slightly to the right or slightly to the left of the wheel in front of you).

(this advice is based on USA roads where cars drive on the right side of the road -- lefthand drive cars)

Sorry for the long post.

Mike in AR:beer:

Good points, which remind me: use your ears. That is, listen for the quietest spot because that is where the draft is best. If it is off to one side, plan accordingly and get the echelon going

[Splash]

Lovin' it!...........

Splash

[malbecman]

Our bike club lists the group rides on their website with the following info. about the expected pace:

P1 - Leisurely (< 10 mph). For families, children; group stays together.
P2 - Tourist (9-12 mph). Stops as needed; waits for stragglers.
P3 - Moderate (12-16 mph). Solid riders; regroups every 45 min.
P4 - Brisk (16-18 mph). Experienced; no obligation to wait.
P5 - Fast (19-21 mph). Strong riders; few stops; no obligation to wait.
P6 - Strenuous (21 mph & faster). Very strong riders.

and terrain

T1 – Flat (Davis to Winters, Esparto, Woodland, Sacramento)
T2 – Rolling (Lake Solano, Pleasants Valley)
T3 – Moderate Climbs (Gibson Canyon, Steiger Canyon)
T4 – Steeper Climbs (Cantelow, Cardiac)
T5 – Steep, Sustained Climbs (Mix Canyon, Cobb Mountain)

There is often a slower group on each daily ride that leaves 15 minutes before the faster group and you can take your pick. Often the slower rides are also specifically listed as "no-drop". I think these ride listings really help keep people's expectations in line.

Of course, for those of you feeling really heroic, you can always go on the rides with the Davis race team. :banana:

[Richard C Beck]

a great thread with lots to digest...

i guess for me now is the question of ideal cadence in group rides...

On Sunday, the guys who i was riding with were shocked at the massive low gear i was constantly using/mashing when they were in their smaller chain ring trying to keep up with me. They did very well and were suprised I matched their speed for along period the entire way with them...

They told me i should ride in the smaller chain ring.

Normally i train and ride most of my time in the larger chain ring and mash.

I need to use the bike computer more to check my cadence.

I understand it is better to ride in a range between 80-100RPM? Why?



SPlash

Higher RPMs equal lower pedal pressure. When you are really getting very slow (like into a head wind), down shift and the road speed picks up

[carpediemracing]

I understand it is better to ride in a range between 80-100RPM? Why?

SPlash

I'm known to be a gear masher so with that out of the way...

One thing about mashing is that it puts more stress on your muscles. It makes it harder to respond later because your muscles get fatigued. Many riders will save the muscular efforts for the big efforts, spin when they can get away with it.

Conversely spinning will raise your HR just a touch, and the inherent inefficiency of spinning too fast means that you end up wasting some energy if, say, you're responding to a big surge without shifting. Chris Froome has done this in a few clips I've seen, he revs it up to 150 rpm or something ridiculous, and I don't understand it.

Remember - for a given speed at a given time on a given road you're doing the same work. On a given road if you're going 20 mph in a 53x11 you'll be putting the exact same power to the bike as if you were going 20 mph in a 39x25. Same speed, same conditions, same power. ALways. It's physics. It's just a matter of how you deliver that power.

If you have a powermeter you can confirm it. Do 200w in a 53x11. Do 200w in a 39x25. Same power. They feel different.

If not you can experiment. Do extremes since they illustrate things better. Go to a section of road that's relatively quiet, allows you to roll for a mile or so, flat maybe?, and do a given section a number of times at the same speed. Fine, the wind will be different, but overall you'll get the idea. So go, say, 20 mph, and use your absolute lowest gear (39x25?). Then do it at 20 mph again, same direction, using your absolute biggest gear (53x11 for me).

Remember it's the SAME POWER to go the SAME SPEED for a given bit of road at a given time.

It'll feel very different between the two gears.

You can try the same thing on an uphill, lower speeds, same gears. 8 mph. 39x25. 53x11. 8 mph both time. Which one fatigues you faster? Remember, same power, same speed, and at 8 mph on a hill there's much less wind to factor.

I spin when conserving, but when I make moves I'm usually at slightly lower rpms. Typically when I respond to an acceleration I'll be shifting up as I speed up.

There's a time for pushing big gears, usually when working on muscular strength. It's sort of like lifting weights while riding. It allows you to exert a lot of torque, i.e. accelerate a lot. Sometimes you have to push because that's all you have for gears.

There's also a time for spinning. It's mainly trying to stabilize effort, steady stuff. It's not as conducive toward surges, meaning spinning up one gear to respond to accelerations. My cadence tends to be in the 80s to 100s, with recovery type stuff at 100-110 rpm.

The good riders, like the pros, tend to spin big gears - they're applying a lot of muscular pressure at relatively high rpms, like 90 or 100 rpm or higher. When I see them race I'm always amazed at how fast they turn huge gears. I've watched many pro races and every time it's a reminder of just how strong those guys are.

[Mark McM]

I spin when conserving, but when I make moves I'm usually at slightly lower rpms. Typically when I respond to an acceleration I'll be shifting up as I speed up.

There's a time for pushing big gears, usually when working on muscular strength. It's sort of like lifting weights while riding. It allows you to exert a lot of torque, i.e. accelerate a lot. Sometimes you have to push because that's all you have for gears.

There's also a time for spinning. It's mainly trying to stabilize effort, steady stuff. It's not as conducive toward surges, meaning spinning up one gear to respond to accelerations. My cadence tends to be in the 80s to 100s, with recovery type stuff at 100-110 rpm.

I guess everyone's different, but I often do just the opposite - slower cadence for long, steady efforts, but higher cadences when large changes in power (surges) may be required. In time trials, my cadence is typically between 85 - 95 rpm, but in criteriums (lots of speed changes) I'm more typically between 95 - 105 rpm (and even higher during sprints).

[carpediemracing]

I guess everyone's different, but I often do just the opposite - slower cadence for long, steady efforts, but higher cadences when large changes in power (surges) may be required. In time trials, my cadence is typically between 85 - 95 rpm, but in criteriums (lots of speed changes) I'm more typically between 95 - 105 rpm (and even higher during sprints).

I probably wasn't clear. When conserving I spin, and in a crit for me that's most of the race. When making efforts I usually shift as I accelerate and my rpms aren't quite as high as, say, Froome when he did some ridiculous rpm, like 140 or 150 rpm, to counter Contador in some race. I'm typically 90s-100s in a crit.

Also I think you fall under the "turn big gears over fast" category?

My steady state effort, like a TT or a climb, is much lower, like lower 80s, once I'm hurting. I try to spin before I hurt but once I'm in a rhythm I have a hard time spinning. Mentally it's easier for me to use a bigger gear and do 81-83 rpm.

The important point I wanted to make was that the power required to go a given speed is the same regardless of what gear the rider is using.

I had a hard time getting my head around this until I had a powermeter. I experimented climbing a hard-for-me hill (about 7 minutes and it's steep enough that I've resorted to weaving a bit to not fall over). I realized that whether I spun or pushed at the bottom I was still doing the same wattage, about 700w, and once I blew I was doing what was probably my FTP in whatever gear I selected, about 210-220w in any gear from a 39x25 to a 39x19. I just pedaled slower if I was in a bigger gear, but my speed and power were basically the same.

For me I found that using bigger gears helped me go just a touch harder because I almost always resort to some lower rpm, like 50-ish rpm on that steep climb. If I'm in a 39x25 I'm doing 180w, if I'm in a 39x21 I'm doing 220w (I just made up those numbers but they're about right). Mentally it's the same effort so I select the 21 and tell myself that's the gear, no more changing. If I go to the 25 I end up slowing (and going easier) because mentally I can't push myself to turn the gear over faster.