Strategic Default ~ Walking Away From A Frame Deposit

[raygunner]

In May I walked away from a deposit for a frameset that I waited well over 2.5 years for. It was a very tough decision but I felt it was the right one. It wasn't something I decided at the spur of the moment nor was it something decided due to anger or frustration.

Sometimes an investments does not pan out. It's as simple as that. In this situation I walked away from a $500 deposit. Instead of being frustrated at the situation or working with a builder who uncommunicative, I decided to walk. I'm not writing this from anger or frustration, I just want to share my experience.

Back in March of 2012 I was in Portland, OR taking a course with UBI and I wanted to put down a deposit with Ira Ryan. I ran into him at UBI and handed him a check. I was a big fan of his & always geeked out vicariously on the internet on his builds, other Portland based builders and Rapha in general. Despite the slew of options of builders out there I plunked down $500 with him and greatly looked forward to the final product.

In March 2012 the lead time for a bike, as noted on his site was 1.5 years. I wasn't in a rush and I fully understood that patience was a virtue to have during this process (it would have been my second custom) even when his website was updated to denote the lead time at 2 years. I was fine with the adjustment of a longer wait time, it was no big deal. After initial emails, meeting at UBI and at his shop, I was very excited about the bike. He was extremely nice and professional at during this process. I later sent him another $500 for another deposit but ended up putting the $1000 towards the first bike.

Based on the updated lead time, my understanding was that sometime around March of 2014 I would have a beautiful new bike.

But in early 2013 I received an email invitation to transfer my deposit to a Breadwinner branded bike and I talked to him at NAHBS in Denver 2013. I really liked the Breadwinner line-up but I wanted the bike I originally plunked down for. Following this time I completed a fit sheet and sent him detailed specifics about what I wanted the project to be. Sometime in 2013 (maybe Sept?) I also swung by his shop to discuss the bike. Again, he was very helpful & nice.

And just prior to two years on the queue, on December 13th, 2013 I was informed via email work could "start your bike this December if that time line works for you…Let me know and we can get started." And on Feb 22nd 2014 I was "next up in the cue and your bike should be coming together in a month or so."

March of 2014 came and went and following scant email communication prior to this (my emails were going unanswered for quite sometime) I decided to telephone him in May of 2014. During this conversation I was informed that I was "second" in the queue (I'm not sure how I got bumped) and there was no solid delivery date for my bike and I realized that my wait would be the better part of 3 years, if that.

At that point I decided to pull the pin. The lack of communication on his part and constant delays in production were major factors in this decision. I don't regret the decision, I only wish it had worked out better. As I noted before, he was very nice throughout the process. Well, I guess there wasn't any "process" but you know, in meeting & speaking to him. Though sometime after year 2 the emails & communication slowed considerably. This was irksome to say the least.

Now I can understand some delay and delay in responding to emails and making a bike. That's only natural. But at last communication there was really no firm idea of when my bike could be delivered (hell, even started on). Despite this, I have no understanding of the demands of his work as a framebuilder. I don't know the challenges nor constraints of his industry, projects or his life in general. But I had an expectation as a customer and that was for a bike to be delivered. Simple communication could have improved this situation. If I was informed that my bike will take "X" amount of time this situation would have been more palatable. Plus I was an ideal customer. I had time to wait and money to spend. But at last communication, well over 2.5 years after I plunked down a deposit and there were no plans laid on his part and I knew I needed to walk.

You have to know when to hold 'em & when to fold 'em!

Ira sent me back $500 but the other $500 was placed as "non-refundable deposit", which was retained. I was fine with those terms since they were denoted when I initially placed the deposit. And honestly, after 2.5 years it didn't matter to me anymore. I didn't want to be angry or frustrated at this situation. This was a pragmatic decision on my part. A strategic default.

So I lost $500 but did the builder lose anything? Maybe a solid customer? Maybe someone who would have been a repeat customer? Maybe a reflection of his work and his brand?

Actually there is a frustrating aspect of this whole ordeal. And it's that I lost out on opportunities and experiences. Down the drain are the opportunity costs associated with this situation. I could of had a great number of awesome rides & experiences on a great bike had I made a better decision regarding a builder.

And I didn't write this with any agenda, just to share my experience. I just didn't sign up for a bike that was slated to take 1.5 years only to wait close to 3 years. I also didn't sign up to be next to ignored as a customer. I wish Ira the best with Breadwinner, I only wish my situation turned out differently. I'm still a huge supporter of customer builders and there are many builders who are doing it right. And thanks to the advice of many folks on this forum I'm currently working with a builder who is just great!

[firerescuefin]

.....and that's how it's done. No weirdness, just the story.

Thanks for posting your experience.

[wallymann]

...you met the guy, talked with him, shook his hand, looked him in the eye, connected on a level enough to spend your money in what he was doing...and he still flaked out on you like that?

IMO that's just crass, shoddy business-practice, and just plain wack.

[markie]

I guess I wonder what the risk was in going ahead with the bike?

Was there another payment required before the build commenced? In which case I can see why you bailed.

[firerescuefin]

I guess I wonder what the risk was in going ahead with the bike?

Was there another payment required before the build commenced? In which case I can see why you bailed.

I think he did the emotional math and decided to punch out rather than get more worked up and fall further into the process. I get it.

[moose8]

I guess I wonder what the risk was in going ahead with the bike?


Sounds like the risk was plunking down more money to get answers that weren't true and be stuck waiting even longer for a bike. If he really was next in line does it ever take over a month to finish the bike ahead of it if that's what you do for a living. I totally think you made a solid decision as past is prologue and I'd guess there would have been more frustration along the way. Three years is just way different than a year and a half. Fortunately there are lots of options out there with solid folks who make nice bikes. When you're dropping what really is silly money on a bike (and I say this as someone who has more in bike assets than his car is worth, probably by a good bit) you are paying for the experience from soup to nuts so once it's tainted it's hard to untaint.

Good luck with whatever you decide to get instead - you've got lots of great choices.

[palincss]

FWIW, here's what it says on Ira Ryan's web site:

As of March 2014 I am not accepting new orders for Ira Ryan Cycles. I will be completing the builds that I have on the on the build log.

[David Kirk]

I'm sorry it worked out that way for you.............that's not how it's supposed to work.

Best of luck to you.

dave

[Cat3roadracer]

That's his name on the down tube. I would have refunded the remaining $500. Poor business. I wonder how many others were/are in the same boat.

A gentleman you are, being in the service industry I'm certain I would not have handled it the same.

[velotrack]

Great story and a mature decision. Likely I would not have had the same composure as you - it is what it is, though. Thanks for the good read.

[Lionel]

If you got to the point where you did not want a bike with his name on the downtube any more then it is a good call. Management of expectations and good communication is key.

I actually ended up in a sort of similar situation once. In my case which is slightly different the builder ended up offering to refund my deposit which was a nice gesture and I took this option.

[Peter P.]

Something is obviously going on behind the scenes at Ira Ryan Cycles.

From his web site:

"As of March 2014 I am not accepting new orders for Ira Ryan Cycles. I will be completing the builds that I have on the on the build log."

Note that it says nothing about reopening the build log when he catches up.
In contrast, I've known other builders who publicly announced closing their build log in order to catch up on their backlog, then reopened the list.

Fortunately, you got a partial refund. There were customers of another framebuilder who were jilted out of $1300 a few years back when the framebuilder offered a killer deal on a custom frame, fork, and headset, then failed to deliver frames. While not a victim, I was involved in that deal.

I think you just had the bad luck to place an order with Ira Ryan at the wrong time. Please tell us how much better your experience is with the new framebuilder you chose. I need some cheering up after reading your post...

[marciero]

Actually there is a frustrating aspect of this whole ordeal. And it's that I lost out on opportunities and experiences. Down the drain are the opportunity costs associated with this situation. I could of had a great number of awesome rides & experiences on a great bike had I made a better decision regarding a builder.


I hear ya. It sounds like the initial wait time extension from 1.5 to 2 years would have mostly been winter months. (assuming northern hemisphere) But the next delay meant losing another season.
It does sound like you are comfortable with the decision, and you certainly dont sound bitter, nor did you make the builder sound like a jerk.

[Grant McLean]

Something is obviously going on behind the scenes at Ira Ryan Cycles.


maybe you missed this;

http://breadwinnercycles.com/pages/about

[christian]

I think he missed the dickin' about in the Oregon desert.

http://theradavist.com/2014/06/watch-ira-ryan-crush-oregon-outback-breadwinner-b-road-gravel-bike/

Just sayin'. I'd not be near as gracious as raygunner. And let's just say that sadly his experience mirrors another one I've heard about from another forumite.

[odin99]

bummer you didn't get your bike after waiting so long.

will you ever consider a custom bike from someone else? or has that ship sailed?

[JAGI410]

I think Tony P. is doing more to keep Breadwinner rolling, and damn those are some beautiful bikes.

Sorry to hear about the bad experience with Ira, but I certainly appreciate you sharing the story.

[raygunner]

I guess I wonder what the risk was in going ahead with the bike?

Was there another payment required before the build commenced? In which case I can see why you bailed.

Negative, I initially wanted a second bike but ended up just rolling it towards the first.

[raygunner]

bummer you didn't get your bike after waiting so long.

will you ever consider a custom bike from someone else? or has that ship sailed?

Oh, I took the $500 partial refund and sent it directly to another builder who had been great to work with and grateful for the business.

It's kinda strange because when the Breadwinner bikes began rolling out I saw photos on Instagram (and Facebook) of people riding their Breadwinner bikes and I was kinda let down since I was waiting for a bike for quite awhile longer than these other customers had. It was kinda like I was a 2nd class customer!

The Breadwinner bikes look great but it wasn't what I signed up for.

[raygunner]

In addition, I mentioned this before but it became kinda clear that he was framebuilding 10% of his time and the other 90% are devoted to other endeavors. And that's perfectly fine. But if that's the case let your customer know.

[eddief]

I would have had a nice, calm, quiet conversation with him and said, if you don't refund all my phuckin money, I am going on the Paceline Forum to tell my non-agenda story. Then as two mature adults, both would have cards on the table and a decision could have been made. Mature adults are in short supply these days. Now he got hammered on the net anyway and you are out $500. Lose, lose. Oh yeah, we win since we know not to do biz with him.

[raygunner]

I would have had a nice, calm, quiet conversation with him and said, if you don't refund all my phuckin money, I am going on the Paceline Forum to tell my non-agenda story. Then as two mature adults, both would have cards on the table and a decision could have been made. Mature adults are in short supply these days. Now he got hammered on the net anyway and you are out $500. Lose, lose.

Absolutely not and I'm not hammering, I'm just laying the cards on the table. Again, very nice guy but his framebuilding business skills were lacking.

But that was the terms of the deposit when I signed up. Again, it was an investment that didn't pan out. Just like my position in Enron (ENRNQ)...

It was kinda the question I posed. I'm out $500. That can be measured. Was anything lost on his end?

[eddief]

Do you have any doubt whether or not anything was lost on his end? Everyone on the entire planet who reads this will not do business with him. Seems like you took care of it your way. When you post something like this to the web you do have an agenda. Maybe you can't discern it, but I guarantee your non agenda is having significant consequences.

And I am not faulting you one bit for letting us know. Just think you could have had your $500 cake and ate it too. I would not have let him get away with my money...if possible. He needs someone to confront him, hold up the mirror, and suggest he get his biz sh*t together, or go the way of the Paul Taylor Dodo bird. He's obviously on his way.

Absolutely not and I'm not hammering, I'm just laying the cards on the table. Again, very nice guy but his framebuilding business skills were lacking.

But that was the terms of the deposit when I signed up. Again, it was an investment that didn't pan out. Just like my position in Enron (ENRNQ)...

It was kinda the question I posed. I'm out $500. That can be measured. Was anything lost on his end?

[parris]

I've seen this kind of thing in the custom gunsmith world. There seems to be a type of craftsman who is talented but for a host of reasons they find it easier to close additional sales while not taking care of the work that they already have on the books. The ignored communication is never a good sign. Sorry that you lost the riding time.

[rnhood]

I think you did the right thing, and its the same thing I would likely have done. It was a cheap lesson all things considered. You immediately accepted the situation and moved on. No agonizing. You told your story which is good as it can further release lingering feelings or any doubt.

You are setting a good example.

[pdmtong]

This is pretty ridiculous. $500 is $500 whether it was lost 3 years ago or today. You are saying you walked away because you couldn't deal with his schedule shenanigans. He'd probably claim you just walked away on your own accord. But in the abstract, Ira Ryan per this perspective is a complete fail. A poor communicator and a poor businessman.

I get that your psyche is better for moving on. And $500, while non-trivial, is not enough to make you sleep under an over-pass. What irks me more than the money is as you said the lost years of anticipation, dreaming, hoping, imagining about your new bike and the places you will go.

Once the alternative builder delivers, this will fade in the rear view mirror or evaporate like a fart in the wind.

Thanks for sharing in a calm measured way. With a closed list, I wonder how many after you are getting the round around as well.

[Peter P.]

maybe you missed this;

http://breadwinnercycles.com/pages/about

Nah; I didn't miss that.

You can't take on a new project and neglect the responsibilities to your other customers.

Of course, we're assuming the Breadwinner project was the cause of the lengthy delays. We don't know.

[texbike]

I think he missed the dickin' about in the Oregon desert.

http://theradavist.com/2014/06/watch-ira-ryan-crush-oregon-outback-breadwinner-b-road-gravel-bike/

Just sayin'. I'd not be near as gracious as raygunner. And let's just say that sadly his experience mirrors another one I've heard about from another forumite.

I kinda dug his backstory and was excited about meeting him at the NAHBS in Austin a few years back. He ended up being a bit of a prick both at the show and bumping into him on a ride that weekend. After those experiences, it was easy to cross him off my list of potential candidates...

Sorry to hear about your issues Raygunner. Congrats on finding another builder that knows how to take care of their business.

[p nut]

...Was anything lost on his end?

Well, I'm sure I speak for many that won't do business with Ira or Breadwinner in the future. I really like those Breadwinner bikes, but there are plenty of other frame builders out there that will provide better service.

[54ny77]

Not surprising at all.

I'd ride a K-Mart Huffy or some some random mail order chinese alibaba frame before buying something from him.

Pal of mine got jacked around by him for a looooong time, ultimately resolved but not without considerable agita. It was circa the same timeframe as the OP.

So many of these guys don't have a pot to piss in, living off deposits and robbing peter to pay paul.

Lies, bull(*& and so on. And I mean some real gems, going to far as to blame someone (and I'm talkin' world class painter) for a *&%^!tty paint job that was never done by them in the first place.

Don't believe the hype. Many other very good alternatives out there, including anything off-the-shelf for that matter.

[raygunner]

Well, I'm sure I speak for many that won't do business with Ira or Breadwinner in the future. I really like those Breadwinner bikes, but there are plenty of other frame builders out there that will provide better service.

But it seems like a bunch of people are lovin' their Breadwinners & Ira Ryans. I just bemoan the fact that I wasn't able to.

And yes, in March of 2012 I could of walked into my LBS and purchased a very nice bike. One LBS stocks Surly, another Seven, Moots, IF, Waterford...you name it! And I could of had years of riding fun. That's what I missed out on the most.

[majorpat]

Seems like some of these "hip" new builders are all show and no go.

Give your money to Paul Sadoff (for example) and get an on time, great value...wait for it...bicycle. Not some esoteric welded demi-god of a frame that gets delivered (or not) in the time it takes to complete a bachelors degree.

Sorry for your bummer experience.

[parris]

Raygunner I wonder just how many people there really are who have one of these frames.

We know that several established builders have literally thousands of frames under their belt from not only their name but also from the time before they hung out the shingle. It seems though that the builder of the week gets a pretty fair amount of attention but then in a number of cases they fade and close up shop while a core group of builders continue to ply their trade for decades. Maybe I'm way off base.

[ORMojo]

. . . his framebuilding business skills were lacking.

. . . Was anything lost on his end?

As others have said, he has lost our business. From everything I've heard, read, and seen, he built (builds) nice stuff, but everything else equal (and he has plenty of equals, or betters), there is now absolutely no reason to give him a deposit, whatever the company name. Maybe in the (distant) future, but not now.

[Grant McLean]

I wonder just how many people there really are who have one of these frames.

We know that several established builders have literally thousands of frames under their belt from not only their name but also from the time before they hung out the shingle. It seems though that the builder of the week gets a pretty fair amount of attention but then in a number of cases they fade and close up shop while a core group of builders continue to ply their trade for decades. Maybe I'm way off base.

The very first line of Ira's website says he has built "over 100 frames" in the last 9 years. One per month?

-g

http://www.iraryancycles.com/

[sitzmark]

Well, I'm sure I speak for many that won't do business with Ira or Breadwinner in the future. I really like those Breadwinner bikes, but there are plenty of other frame builders out there that will provide better service.

As of March 2014 Ira's not taking any more orders according to his website. Needs to finish backlog of orders. Looking like he's not long for the bike building business anyway based on his current trajectory.

Always more than one side to every story, but this one seems pretty cut and dry. The honorable thing to do is refund deposits if you're so far in arrears that you have to shut your business down to catch up.

Thanks for heads up ray gunner.

[ORMojo]

Raygunner I wonder just how many people there really are who have one of these frames.

We know that several established builders have literally thousands of frames under their belt from not only their name but also from the time before they hung out the shingle. It seems though that the builder of the week gets a pretty fair amount of attention but then in a number of cases they fade and close up shop while a core group of builders continue to ply their trade for decades. Maybe I'm way off base.

In Ira's own words, "I have built over a hundred bicycles since I opened the doors of my workshop in 2005." That seems like a pretty low output to me . . .

[texbike]

Not surprising at all.

So many of these guys don't have a pot to piss in, living off deposits and robbing peter to pay paul.

Lies, bull(*& and so on. Don't believe the hype. Many other very good alternatives out there, including anything off-the-shelf for that matter.

Seems like some of these "hip" new builders are all show and no go.

Give your money to Paul Sadoff (for example) and get an on time, great value...wait for it...bicycle. Not some esoteric welded demi-god of a frame that gets delivered (or not) in the time it takes to complete a bachelors degree.


It seems though that the builder of the week gets a pretty fair amount of attention but then in a number of cases they fade and close up shop .

Sorry for the snipped quotes, but yeah, it seems that a lot of these guys are fantastic at marketing themselves and are more worried about building their brand via modern social media channels than actually delivering quality product and experience. They all want to be the next Richard Sachs or Sacha White.

The marketing part is easy. The business part isn't as easy and seems to be where most of these "artists" struggle. Personally, I'd prefer to work with someone that's a bit more under the radar, doesn't know a damn thing about Twitter, Pinterest, Instagram, blogging, etc. and is investing more in their ability to deliver quality goods.

[bcroslin]

Breadwinner site says they deliver in 8-10 weeks. I'm confused, if I were to plunk down $500 today would I have a Breadwinner frame by Nov or not?

[parris]

I didn't realize he'd built that few frames. Tex brought up a fantastic point about some of the builders being more concerned in brand building vs. coming up with the goods that they're in business to deliver.

Maybe if they want to be the next Sachs or other long established builder they would do well to realize the many of these builders have spent decades at a bench with files, their material of choice, and a torch or other joining means.

I would take an 8-10 week delivery with a big grain of salt until the brand has proven that is indeed the time frame that product can be delivered. I've seen times like this advertised with other custom goods and in many cases the schedule is often 3-5 times longer than what the web page states.

[merckx]

Breadwinner site says they deliver in 8-10 weeks. I'm confused, if I were to plunk down $500 today would I have a Breadwinner frame by Nov or not?

If you plunked down $500.00 today as a deposit for a Breadwinner, you will be starting a thread in two and a half, three years discussing your strategic move. It appears that "Breadwinner" was a cleaver name choice.

[firerescuefin]

I'm bummed for RayG....but really thankful when folks like this get revealed. I remember really liking the BW booth at Denver NAHBS. It's easy to want to believe in the bridge some of these guys are selling when those bikes and their salesman persona is on display.

Their lack of game only elevates the Kirks, Wages, Della Santas, Sadoffs, Evans, etc.

and rightfully so.

[Derailer]

Tough break. I applaud your coolheaded exit from a deal gone sideways. Now buy a Kirk. :cool:

[raygunner]

I think there's alot of good points noted.

Social media was mentioned and I'll hit on that. While Breadwinner (or IR) appears very active in that medium I was a little bothered that there was time to post a photo or blog post but not time to email me back in a somewhat timely manner.

And communication is key. Again, if the goal posts kept moving for whatever reason or constraint and I was informed of the situation I would of been more than happy to ride it out. But emails went unresponded for months.

And I have no understanding of the pressures, constraints, and demands of frame building. I only know how to ride a bike and that skill isn't even that great. But I'm sure its a very difficult business and and maybe such aspects constrained him from fulfilling my order.

[Marburg]

As the guy who's either #1 or #2 on the "old" Matt Chester build queue, I agree with and applaud this thread. I've got nada thing (refund, frame) from my MC experience ... but what I miss the most is the SSCX rides I didn't have ...

[krhea]

"RayG", I like how you handle your business my friend, classy, to the point, just the facts.

Being a Portland resident with an "ear to the ground" I can tell you I'm not surprised at what you had to deal with.

Can't wait to see what took the place of the "ghost" Ryan.

[djg21]

I have a real problem with frame buiilders taking such large deposits so far in advance of a build date. I understand the need to take a deposit, but it should not be taken so far in advance and used to float the business and fund other builds, in what amounts nothing more than a small-scale ponzi scheme. Take the deposit when the build can be definitively calendared to be built, perhaps 60-90 days beforehand, so the deposit can be used to puchase the tubing and other necessary material.

I would encourage the OP make a demand for a full refund given Ryan's breach of contract and arguably deceptive business practices. I'd also suggest speaking with a lawyer who knows something about consumer protection law. Many states allow a cause of action for deceptive business practices. In NY, for example, treble damages (3 x actual damages) and attorney's fees can be awarded to the consumer. Assuming no lawyer wants to get involved in such a small dispute, the OP can represent herself in small claims. The worst thst happens is she spends a couple of hours preparing and ultimately loses her filing fee, which should be paltry. Alternatively, file a complaint with the consumer protection bureau of your state's attorney general's office.

I will bet the OP is not alone, and there are other consumers who plunked down relatively significant sums for bikes they are unlikely to see within a reasonable time, if at all.

[cinema]

Looks like a pretentious douche catering to the ultimate alt bike industry fashionistas. Not surprised, but I'm sad a fellow chicagoan had to go through it.

[moodster]

Sadly I had similar situation with tony p. I like the bike I ended up with but will never buy another pereira.

[rain dogs]

Bummer.

[rwsaunders]

I'm always in awe when I read these type of threads. If you've closed your queue to focus on other ventures, people get that. However, how hard is it to either honor your previous obligations or refund the deposit that you've been sitting on for what, 2-1/2 years?

It makes you appreciate even more, the framebuilders and kit suppliers who market their wares, honor their obligations and get the job done so to speak, without the drama.

If you read the link below, it would appear that based on the timeline, the OP's bike (and surely others) took a permanent back seat to the venture du jour. I doubt if we will ever know the full story.

http://bikeportland.org/2013/02/19/ira-ryan-and-tony-pereira-team-up-to-launch-breadwinner-cycles-82972

[wooly]

Sadly I had similar situation with tony p. I like the bike I ended up with but will never buy another pereira.

Then it sounds like a sound marriage between two flakes. Thanks Raygunner I won't be buying a Breadwinner or anything else associated with Ira Ryan.

[Ozrider]

@Raygunner - I think you made a wise choice to walk away, I however have to agree that it appears his new Breadwinner project took precedence over existing orders.

[soulspinner]

If he has time for social media with a long backlog and insufficient communication, he should have refunded all money. Full stop.

[fuzzalow]

I think Tony P. is doing more to keep Breadwinner rolling, and damn those are some beautiful bikes.

Well, I'm sure I speak for many that won't do business with Ira or Breadwinner in the future.

Sadly I had similar situation with tony p. I like the bike I ended up with but will never buy another pereira.

Good grief, a trail of misery and woe left behind by these two grifters. Two wrongs won't make a right. Breadwinner, huh? This time they had the arrogance to let the client in on the joke.

[AngryScientist]

very interesting.

a few years back, i was at the trexlertown swap meet and happened upon an IR cross frame. it was simply stunning, and if it had fit me, i would have bought it on the spot. from that time, i have always had in the back of my mind buying an IR.

i'm both appreciative of this thread, as it will keep me from making the same mistake, and sympathetic to ray's position, sucks really.

thanks ray, for the thread, and i'm certain the new custom build with an honorable name on the downtube will cheer you right up!

[gomango]

I occasionally ride with a fellow that has an Ira Ryan.

Really a fine frameset and a decent performer.

I've often daydreamed about owning one, but this thread took all the fun out of this fantasy.

If I were Ira Ryan I would do a few things today.

Give Raygunner a nice deposit in his Paypal account and then I would have coffee with my Breadwinner team and start the apologies for this unfortunate situation. I would include a reasonable rate of interest in the reimbursement to account for Raygunner's generous "loan."

Time for him to get the broom out and clean up this mess.

Right now.

[CNY rider]

. Again, very nice guy

Why do you say this?
He took $500 from you and wasted 2 years of your time. I'd say that makes him a total prick, not a "nice guy".

[eippo1]

If I were Ira Ryan I would do a few things today.

Give Raygunner a nice deposit in his Paypal account and then I would have coffee with my Breadwinner team and start the apologies for this unfortunate situation. I would include a reasonable rate of interest in the reimbursement to account for Raygunner's generous "loan."

Time for him to get the broom out and clean up this mess.

Right now.

Seriously, it's like Raygunner and moodster were unwitting supporters of the Breadwinner Kickstarter campaign.

[xeladragon]

Thanks raygunner for the post. Looking forward to seeing your new custom!

[FlashUNC]

This totally sucks. Like a lot of others, Ira Ryan had been one of the builders whose bikes I had always liked whenever I saw one -- though to be fair in hindsight that was almost always online. Never actually saw one in the flesh.

It also makes me thankful for my experience with Mr Della Santa last year. Bike was delivered almost to the day he estimated when I called to place my order, and on budget. He was communicative through every step of the process, even calling when he had a couple questions to clarify.

I think raygunner's made the right call. There's too many great framebuilders out there who deliver on time and on budget, that waiting around for the veritable unicorn from some of these builders just isn't worth. Time to cut bait and find someone who wants the business.

[phcollard]

Thanks Ray for coming up with a honest, to the point and well written report of your misadventure. Man I feel sorry for you and at the same time I admire your zen attitude.

I'm happy nobody wrote the proverbial "there are two sides to every story" in this post because I believe in this case nobody wants to hear what the other side says. Your depiction of the facts is accurate enough.

I was considering a Breadwinner, just considering so far, but this is now off my list. And I also heard stories of delays and miscommunication from another member. You just confirmed them.

It always amazes me how an artisan with such reputation can really have such poor pratices when you lift the Rapha-bike-social-media-hype curtain. And at the same time there are some very cool builders in the industry who deserve way more attention than they get because they build amazing frames and are dead serious about what they do and customer care and all that... My money goes to one of those guys next.

Thanks for posting Ray and I hope you get your dream frame from somebody else very soon.

[93legendti]

Sorry you're out $500. It sucks the way you were treated.

If I was in the market for a new custom bike, I would contact Dave Kirk, Tom Kellogg and/or Carl Strong. Very reasonable wait times, never any drama and always deliver as promised.

[Md3000]

In my business you see this dynamic all the time. I'm a musician and perform regularly. While some of the people who put on events that ask me to perform are sound business people who have been in the game for a long time, there are lots more who take up promoting events as something they do for love and a quick buck. Most people I meet on the road are really nice, they love the music, they love bringing it to people, and while you automatically assume you're in good hands working with them, you just never know whether they pay their bills on time, ie. are also responsible business people.

What I distill from the story is that Ira and Breadwinner are probably cool people, they love riding, they love building bikes, in that way they connect with us bike lovers. But who knows, they're probably late with rent every month, or forget to pay their cell phone bills, in other words, they are irresponsible and hence their bad business model. I bet that initial $500 deposit is long gone.

I think you handled the situation with much class. To be able to walk away from a disappointing event to spare yourself the frustration is so much more gratifying personally than vindictiveness, lawyers, going on a tirade ever will be.

[malcolm]

First off I think you handled it well, it's what I would like to think I would have done. Cut your losses and move on.

I think sometimes folks forget they are providing a service you are paying for. They seem to think they are doing you a favor by taking your money to deliver a product. I really don't care about what is going on behind the scenes, it's hard to be successful as a frame builder, I get it but guess what it's hard to be successful in any business.

I've apparently been very lucky I've dealt with three custom builders, Tom Kellogg, Dave Kirk and now Jim Kish. I can't recall any of them taking more than 24 hours to respond to an e-mail and never not responding. Oh I forgot Akio tanabae of Kalavinka cycles in Japan, same thing answered every question in a timely fashion and delivered on time from another continent, so it can be done but it takes a commitment to your business and reputation to do it and if things are going south be communicative and honest most people will understand. What they won't understand or tolerate is silence.

[bingomck]

As many others have said, thank you for posting this. At least one positive from this situation being that we are now more informed. My interest in some Breadwinner models is now gone....

Looking forward to seeing your new ride! Curious what you'll get, if I'm not mistaken you sold two Rivs recently?

[chiasticon]

to echo what others have said, i have oggled breadwinners a few times and considered the option. glad i never pulled the trigger. never will after reading this. TONS of awesome builders out there, no need to waste your time and money on something ira ryan is involved with. sorry you had to learn that the hard way, but we're all better off for it. hope your new bike makes up for the experience somewhat!

[572cv]

Thank you, Ray, for the thread.

I have a really hard time letting go when I have been slighted, or insulted or cheated or treated without respect. To me, your story offers thoughtful consideration of when to be upset and when not to be. It is not good for the heart or soul to internalize and retain these things, and I admire the clarity of your decision. I hope I can take it to heart, and apply the same logic in my own interactions.

[Birddog]

Unless the builder was out some $$ for specific materials associated with this particular build the honorable thing to do would have been a full refund. I can see retaining the deposit if you were invested in materials that would gather dust if not used for this specific job. Your business plan shouldn't be relying on deposits to generate profit.

[raygunner]

I'm sure it's a difficult business to be in. I'm not sure of the margins, the volume and challenges involving being a small custom builder, but I'm sure it's not easy.

He was very nice in my dealings with him but when it came time to walk away I didn't bother asking why it my bike was never built. I guess it did not matter to me at that point.

That being said, when I invested my money I was told 1.5 years lead time.

If the builder was upfront with me with issues that could cause a delay, again it would of been no big deal. A month or two. Easy. But not double. Not on the cusp of 3 years.

But if you're more invested in other ventures such as bike racing, motorcycle trips, ect (all evident via social media) than you are as your main profession as denoted on your website, well...maybe it's time to reassess things. Maybe his queue was closed for this reason.

And just one point I'd like to make. I'm not saying not to check out BWC so please don't draw that conclusion. They seem like they have a nice lineup & a nice model. Also, they appear to be churning out some nice bikes. I didn't make a deposit with BWC, just Ira.

[denapista]

Oof!

This thread cuts to the core.. Reason being, is that I was about to click the add to cart option on the Breadwinner website for a B Road. I emailed them a month ago and got a response two days ago.. I should take that a sign, right?

[uber]

If the builder was that late in building/delivering a frame, I would think
he should give you the option of a full refund or a significant discount on
the frame he promised to be completed very soon. It would not surprise
me if this posting doesn't cost him more than $500.
I would be really disappointed and probably not as willing to walk
away from my deposit.

[raygunner]

Oof!

This thread cuts to the core.. Reason being, is that I was about to click the add to cart option on the Breadwinner website for a B Road. I emailed them a month ago and got a response two days ago.. I should take that a sign, right?

In all fairness, when I decided to call and see what was up, I think my call was answered on the first ring. Email isn't every ones strong suit. But again, communication was definitely lacking in my situation.

[likebikes]

I believe many (most? all?) of the breadwinner frames are built not by tony or ira, but via outside help.

[raygunner]

If the builder was that late in building/delivering a frame, I would think
he should give you the option of a full refund or a significant discount on
the frame he promised to be completed very soon. It would not surprise
me if this posting doesn't cost him more than $500.
I would be really disappointed and probably not as willing to walk
away from my deposit.

Well when I received my partial refund, the note that accompanied the check stated that I had "credit" towards a Breadwinner.

Only thing is that a Breadwinner, as nice as they seem, was not what I signed up for originally.

Maybe the delay on his part was a way to coax me into having a Breadwinner built. He did ask me if I wanted one both in email when the brand launched & in person at NAHBS in 2013.

[malcolm]

In all fairness, when I decided to call and see what was up, I think my call was answered on the first ring. Email isn't every ones strong suit. But again, communication was definitely lacking in my situation.

I hear what you are saying and you are probably right. I'll offer this though, as a consumer if you give me an e-mail option especially in this day and age you had better monitor it, because trust me it pisses people off to have correspondence unanswered.

If you are not going to keep up with it don't offer the option to e-mail do business by phone only.

[denapista]

My buddy has (2) Breadwinners. Says both frames took upwards to 8 months to get, and he experienced lack of email communication. I ride with a buddy who has an Ira Ryan, and it took him a year and a half to get. Communication is key to me. I mean, I'm spending $2000-4000 with you and at least let me know how my money is doing. haha

I would contact Ira and get my $500 back. That's a nice chunk of change to put in a persons pocket for a few conversations. Just the principle of the whole ordeal. At least have a conversation about it..

I see what you're saying in regards to a phone call, but in today's society no one calls anymore. Electronic communication is key when dealing with customers. Everyone has a smart phone, and you're connected to email 24/7. Even a "Hey I'm kind of backed up with knocking out some welds, and I'll respond when time permits" would put a smile on my face. We have to be in their shoes as well. I'll never give a builder an out, but some people aren't good at managing time or pressure, which doesn't mean they shouldn't be frame building. They should simply surround themselves with decent help to aid in their business venture. Breadwinner should hire some hottie from Portland to sit there and respond to emails and assist with the logistics of it all, or be straight honest with your customers. Honesty goes a long way in custom frames. Most customers plunk down the $500 deposit with the hope they have enough time to acquire all of the parts and most importantly the rest of the frame moneys. haha There's a nice little area in there were both parties can meet, and it's based on communication.

[raygunner]

I hear what you are saying and you are probably right. I'll offer this though, as a consumer if you give me an e-mail option especially in this day and age you had better monitor it, because trust me it pisses people off to have correspondence unanswered.

If you are not going to keep up with it don't offer the option to e-mail do business by phone only.

Well at first emails were great...then they slowed to barely a trickle.

Sure, I could of called him day & night but I'm wasn't going to hound this guy for my bike. Obviously it became clear as crystal that I was not a priority despite having a taken a deposit from me.

Again, I'm the perfect customer. I'm patient, I have disposable income (Single Income, No Kids = SINK) and like bikes. A custom builder's target market. Anyways, no bother to get mad or frustrated. Life is way too short. I'm glad I made the right decision.

[malcolm]

Well at first emails were great...then they slowed to barely a trickle.

Sure, I could of called him day & night but I'm wasn't going to hound this guy for my bike. Obviously it became clear as crystal that I was not a priority despite having a taken a deposit from me.

Again, I'm the perfect customer. I'm patient, I have disposable income (Single Income, No Kids = SINK) and like bikes. A custom builder's target market. Anyways, no bother to get mad or frustrated. Life is way too short. I'm glad I made the right decision.

I agree with you brother, you did exactly what I think I would have done. 500 is a lot of money but sometimes the frustration to get it isn't worth it. It's a lesson, expensive but you learned it and are moving on. It was good of you to share it in the manner you did. Thanks

[old fat man]

Even if you had stuck it out, the poor communication and long delay would have soured you such that the end product would not have fulfilled the expectation.

I have a friend with a similar scenario with Sachs. 4 years turned into 6 years, the lugs were no longer the boutique hand filed jobs, but instead his stamped out mass produced pieces, and the price was the price at delivery, not at the time the order was taken. Plus, Sachs spelled his name wrong on the bb!

Easily my biggest aggravation from anybody providing a service with future delivery is failure to set correct expectations. Under promise and over deliver. If you tell me it will be 3 years, and then you deliver in 2.5, I'll be excited! If you tell me 2 years, and it's 2.5 years, the end product you deliver will be tarnished due to the experience.

[MadRocketSci]

Just a thought....maybe you guys idolize and put these builders on a pedestal so much that they become d*cks.

Can't imagine that happening with someone like Dave Kirk. That guy seems so grounded.

[raygunner]

Just a thought....maybe you guys idolize and put these builders on a pedestal so much that they become d*cks.

Can't imagine that happening with someone like Dave Kirk. That guy seems so grounded.

I blame Rapha! :rolleyes:

[Lovetoclimb]

That's his name on the down tube. I would have refunded the remaining $500. Poor business. I wonder how many others were/are in the same boat.

This.

[p nut]

... Anyways, no bother to get mad or frustrated. Life is way too short. I'm glad I made the right decision.

Just chiming in again to applaud you for taking the high road. Holding grudges just eats away at you. You are doing the right thing and you've set a good example for all here. Best wishes on the next frame.

[p nut]

(of course Peraira being involved in Breadwinner is collateral damage to this)

Won't be ordering from BW ever, but I will have a Roaring 29er one day!

http://www.pereiracycles.com/gallery/showcruiser/images/IMG_4363.jpg

[Fishbike]

A deposit should never, ever be used to fund anything but materials and services for the client who paid the deposit. Frame builders, home improvement contractors, lawyers, etc. get in trouble when they take and spend money they have not yet earned. Richard Sachs talks very wisely about keeping deposits in a separate account until he is ready to work on the payer's frame. Any one of us can get fatally struck by lightning tomorrow. Buyers should not have to worry that their deposits are at risk if a builder cannot deliver for whatever reason.

[FlashUNC]

A deposit should never, ever be used to fund anything but materials and services for the client who paid the deposit. Frame builders, home improvement contractors, lawyers, etc. get in trouble when they take and spend money they have not yet earned. Richard Sachs talks very wisely about keeping deposits in a separate account until he is ready to work on the payer's frame. Any one of us can get fatally struck by lightning tomorrow. Buyers should not have to worry that their deposits are at risk if a builder cannot deliver for whatever reason.


Not to excuse what's happened in this situation by any stretch, but if a builder makes clear some portion of that deposit is non-refundable, I think it's unrealistic to expect to get that money back. The caveat is the builder has to be clear upfront, before any money changes hands, about what portion of the deposit is non-refundable.

[brockd15]

I've never ordered a custom so I don't know, but is there not a concept of the non-refundable portion being tied to some performance metric on the builder's end. As in, it's non-refundable as long as the work begins in the agreed upon time window?

I guess it goes back to the original question: Is Ira Ryan really out anything (not counting the reputation hit from threads like this)?

[beeatnik]

I blame Rapha! :rolleyes:

Hahah.

So, which current, trendy builder are you working with now?

[saab2000]

Not to excuse what's happened in this situation by any stretch, but if a builder makes clear some portion of that deposit is non-refundable, I think it's unrealistic to expect to get that money back. The caveat is the builder has to be clear upfront, before any money changes hands, about what portion of the deposit is non-refundable.

I see the term 'non-refundable' applying to a customer backing out. It's a bit of insurance for the builder.

It's not free money for the builder to keep if he just doesn't live up to his end of the deal.

I'd look at a couple options if this were my situation. First, I'd consider applying it to a BW even though that's not the original bike he wanted. Second, I'd try to talk to a lawyer about my options. It's 'only' $500 but that's really not the point. It's bad business.

But nonrefundable to me applies largely to the buyer changing his mind, not to the seller deciding he just doesn't want to make bikes anymore. That's BS and he (IR) knows it.

[MadRocketSci]

But nonrefundable to me applies largely to the buyer changing his mind, not to the seller deciding he just doesn't want to make bikes anymore. That's BS and he (IR) knows it.

Seriously...great short term business plan - making more money not making a bike than making it.

[saab2000]

Seriously...great short term business plan - making more money not making a bike than making it.

I'd call it fraud, but hey, that's just me. Sounds like a smaller version of the schemes that put some notorious fund managers into prison.

[JAWN]

Good read, thanks for posting. Customer service and communication are key in any business or relationship.

I went through some headaches with a custom frame order and ultimately had to walk away too. Luckily I was given a 100% refund and was able to go to someone else. What was promised as a 3-4 month turnaround for me is now going on 2 years (when you factor in two different builders). That is a long time and a lot of missed rides. In the end, It'll all be water under the bridge and a lesson learned the hard way.

[saab2000]

It's really unfortunate but the fact is that better communication would have prevented this whole fiasco.

And in the case that the builder can't fulfill an obligation I think he ought to do the right thing and return the "nonrefundable" deposit.

[raygunner]

I really appreciate the valid points about the "non-refundable" deposit. The $500 non-refundable deposit term was clear to me when I plunked down & when I spoke to him on the phone. At that point in May it didn't even matter anymore. Just time to cut my losses and move on.

It's funny because I've received several PMs regarding this issue where people are telling me their similar tales. So I'm glad I'm not alone but then again I'm saddened that there are more of these crappy situations involving this community.

Also, I did back out of the contract. But then again he didn't perform any work for me within that 2.5 year window.

I never even considered legal options to recover the $500 and I'm not sure if I even want to.

I just cannot wrap my head around why he couldn't perform. I guess it really doesn't matter anymore.

[soulspinner]

It's really unfortunate but the fact is that better communication would have prevented this whole fiasco.

And in the case that the builder can't fulfill an obligation I think he ought to do the right thing and return the "nonrefundable" deposit.

This^^

[goonster]

nonrefundable to me applies largely to the buyer changing his mind, not to the seller deciding he just doesn't want to make bikes anymore.
Exactly.

[campy man]

I understand the concept of protecting the frame builder if a buyer simply changes his mind ... the non-refundable deposit makes sense.

Questions;
- How much detail should the builder provide before accepting a non-refundable deposit?
- Is requesting a drawing with geometry & tubing specs before sending a deposit fair?

[saab2000]

I understand the concept of protecting the frame builder if a buyer simply changes his mind ... the non-refundable deposit makes sense.

Questions;
- How much detail should the builder provide before accepting a non-refundable deposit?
- Is requesting a drawing with geometry & tubing specs before sending a deposit fair?

Some builders are awesome with their schedules and we usually know who they are.

I think a deposit is totally legit. Maybe a written contract that if the frame isn't delivered by a mutually agreed upon date there are contingencies or compensation for the customer.

Often a bike transaction takes place with a handshake or a phone call. But it's a business transaction and frankly, a contract with some terms spelled out would protect both parties. It hopefully clears up ambiguity in the process.

This doesn't mean that the builder is 'punished' or that the customer feels screwed, but it cleans up gray areas.

I needn't be more than a page long and the terms can be flexible and agreed to by both parties before signature.

Examples might be something like $500 to start the process. Then another $500 before any metal is cut and final balance before the frame is delivered. Dates (or general time periods) agreed upon in advance.

Just me thinking out loud.

I suspect some builders already do this. It protects both parties. Contracts create accountability for both parties.

[sitzmark]

I never even considered legal options to recover the $500 and I'm not sure if I even want to.

It would cost you more than $500 to get your $500 back. The least expensive would be small claims court, but from IL ... same.

Regardless of what performance clauses and specifics were/could have been drafted into a deposit agreement, failure to deliver 2x+ beyond estimated delivery is unacceptable. An honorable person would "do the right thing".

[p nut]

Maybe I'm totally naive. But in my mind, all these contracts, deadlines, legal garbage goes against ordering from a (typically small) custom builder. When I ordered my custom frame last year, it was a simple paypal of the deposit to the builder, 1/2 down at start of build, and rest upon delivery. Deposit was non-refundable, as noted on the website, but I had enough trust in the guy to do what's right if things didn't pan out (and hopefully he also had enough trust in me to come through on my part). I didn't sign any documents. Just a "aye" over the phone and the guy got welding.

Maybe these "handshake" days are over and I'll get burned one day like raygunner, but if I'm having to comb over documents, worry about legal ramifications, blah blah--I'd rather go get a Trek.

[David Kirk]

FWIW here's why I take a deposit and that it's non-refundable.

When I first started the biz I did not state that it was non-refundable and never even considered going that way. And then I started having issues.

I can't tell you how many times I had someone send a deposit, with what I assume was the best of intentions, and then after a few weeks or a few months change their mind and ask for the money back. If this happened once in a blue moon it would be fine but it was happening with shocking frequency.

I can't say for sure why this was happening but my guess is that having the idea in the back of their heads that they can get the deposit back without issue if they change their minds meant that they often put little thought into it. It becomes like buying a pack of gum.

The problem for the builder may, or may not, be obvious. I can only speak for myself here but when someone asks what my lead time is I look at the number of bikes in the queue and do the simple math. So I quote lead times based on the number of deposits and firm orders I have. The problem comes when folks who were never really committed to the project but just wanted to hedge their bets and have a place in line pull the plug and the length of the queue changes, my cash flow forecasting changes, the amount of raw materials I stock changes, and it effects sales and the taking of new deposits because I'm telling them how long my queue is........or as it turned out how long I thought it was.

It makes sense when you think about it.........a deposit is some 'skin in the game' and show serious intent but if it's refundable just because the client gets bored with the idea then the skin isn't really skin at all. I can't tell you how much time I spent dealing with refunds to folks that were never really committed to the project anyway.

In time I changed my process and now ask for $300 for a deposit and state that it's nonrefundable. This keeps the tire kickers and time wasters out of the mix and allows me to focus on customers who are serious about the purchase and allows me to much more accurately forecast lead times and then deliver on time.

All that said I know that sometimes ····· happens and life deals everyone a tough hand. If for some reason the customer needs to back out or delay the project I happily hold the money here for them and it will be here holding a spot for them until they are in a position where they can start up again.

On rare occasions I offer to refund a deposit.....people get sick, they die, they lose their jobs....bad stuff happens and in those cases I will usually just send them their $300 back. Interestingly those folks almost never ask for the money back. I've told other builders I do this and I've been asked if I worry about people taking advantage and telling me they have cancer so they can get their $300 back. I suppose this could happen - but if someone can sleep at night after lying to someone they have committed to just for $300 they need the money much more than I do and I didn't really want to do business with them anyhow.

Thanks for reading.

dave

[saab2000]

Maybe I'm totally naive. But in my mind, all these contracts, deadlines, legal garbage goes against ordering from a (typically small) custom builder. When I ordered my custom frame last year, it was a simple paypal of the deposit to the builder, 1/2 down at start of build, and rest upon delivery. Deposit was non-refundable, as noted on the website, but I had enough trust in the guy to do what's right if things didn't pan out (and hopefully he also had enough trust in me to come through on my part). I didn't sign any documents. Just a "aye" over the phone and the guy got welding.

Maybe these "handshake" days are over and I'll get burned one day like raygunner, but if I'm having to comb over documents, worry about legal ramifications, blah blah--I'd rather go get a Trek.

Then you leave yourself open to these kinds of situations. Many a 'nice guy' has had issues delivering in a timely manner. That's not the issue here. Life happens, as the saying goes. The issue is that 1. there was poor communication and 2. the seller didn't offer to 'do the right thing' and return the deposit after it became clear that the bike wouldn't be delivered in a 'reasonable' amount of time. 'Reasonable' is something that can be defined, BTW,

I agree that handshake business and PayPal transactions are great and 99% of the time they work fine. Unfortunately, they don't always work. If they did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[rwsaunders]

Based on this thread and where it is going, IR might earn more than the $500 which was "donated" by the OP, if he returned the deposit to the OP. At least offer some Rapha store credit...

Idea...send a note and a link to this thread to Simon Mottram (Rapha founder) while you're at it and see if their IR Continental bikes were delivered as expected.

[p nut]

Then you leave yourself open to these kinds of situations. Many a 'nice guy' has had issues delivering in a timely manner. That's not the issue here. Life happens, as the saying goes. The issue is that 1. there was poor communication and 2. the seller didn't offer to 'do the right thing' and return the deposit after it became clear that the bike wouldn't be delivered in a 'reasonable' amount of time. 'Reasonable' is something that can be defined, BTW,

I agree that handshake business and PayPal transactions are great and 99% of the time they work fine. Unfortunately, they don't always work. If they did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Yep, I agree--99% of the time, it will work out. But even in the 1% of the transactions that go sour, would a contract make much difference? $500 is not small change, but not a huge deal, either (for someone that is looking at a custom frame anyway), especially when weighed against 3 years of ride time. In the end, dishonest people will always be just that, despite any legal forms.

[Waldo]

Dave Kirk,

Thank you for a cogent and detailed explanation of what it's like on your end. I always enjoyed working with you on the frame you built for me.

[saab2000]

Yep, I agree--99% of the time, it will work out. But even in the 1% of the transactions that go sour, would a contract make much difference? $500 is not small change, but not a huge deal, either (for someone that is looking at a custom frame anyway), especially when weighed against 3 years of ride time. In the end, dishonest people will always be just that, despite any legal forms.

I agree with this. And I agree that in the end $500 is not the end of the world for most people here.

The situation is unfortunate but not the end of the world for anybody.

BTW, I also think it's pretty much never too late for people to right a wrong, as the saying goes. IR could do the right thing and put this to rest.

Honesty and integrity is a great policy pretty much all the time.

[sitzmark]

FWIW here's why I take a deposit and that it's non-refundable.

...

On rare occasions I offer to refund a deposit.....people get sick, they die, they lose their jobs....bad stuff happens and in those cases I will usually just send them their $300 back. Interestingly those folks almost never ask for the money back. I've told other builders I do this and I've been asked if I worry about people taking advantage and telling me they have cancer so they can get their $300 back. I suppose this could happen - but if someone can sleep at night after lying to someone they have committed to just for $300 they need the money much more than I do and I didn't really want to do business with them anyhow.

Thanks for reading.

dave
Absolutely a deposit is reasonable. In the business-to-business world deposits and penalties for failure to deliver as promised are often tied to the business losses each party will incur for undelivered/late products and services. Lost opportunity and hard costs trickle up and down the supply chain.

That said, a gross breach in the "spirit" of a custom frame deposit fits in with lying about cancer and your view of "need the money much more" fits raygunner's situation in reverse. Something in IR's gut should have told him to just refund the deposit and apologize profusely. If as stated, the breach was that egregious.

[tiretrax]

I've read all the posts, and I'll never buy a Breadwinner or a used Ira Ryan, no matter how beautiful they are. I had a conversation with him at NAHBS in Austin, and he was stuck up, but laughed at my jokes and conversed with me. Kind of like the Rapha guys. A little stuck up and cliquish, but they would engage in conversation.

I volunteered to help set up for the show so I could schmooze with folks beforehand. The Rapha/Brooks/Ira Ryans were jocular in comparison to Geekhouse and Vanilla/Speedvagen. I was in the same taco shop after the Rapha ride on Saturday morning with the entire Vanilla team, and they were the most arrogant pr*cks you could imagine, including the Great One (at least that's how he acted).

The most approachable and down to earth folks I met - Dario, Kent Eriksen, and the Cyfac owner.

[josephr]

I was in the same taco shop after the Rapha ride on Saturday morning with the entire Vanilla team, and they were the most arrogant pr*cks you could imagine, including the Great One (at least that's how he acted).



I'm sure the folks from Salsa bikes would give them a run for their money!

[beeatnik]

I used to regularly see an Ira Ryan, probably owned by the guy Denapista mentioned. When the owner would bring it to the big Sat morn fast ride, we were the only 2 guys on steel bikes (100-200 riders). I think the owner was connected enough to ride a nice bike by any hip builder. But for over 2 years if he was on a road bike, it was the Ryan. When I'd see him I'd be reminded of Bill Strickland's ode to his IR (which he kind of shockingly sold).

I guess if there's a greater loss in all this it's that a seeming dilettante was gifted with the skill of a master craftsman. There should be more than 100 of his lovely frames out in the world, IMHO.

[John H.]

Do you think Ira even has 100 frames under his belt?
I bet not.
For new build I hope you are going for experience. Prolific builder with solid track record.
Not some "look at me" builder.
Lugs aren't my Jam, but if they were I would get a Della Santa if going steel fork, Kirk or Bedford if going carbon fork.
How could you go wrong with any of those 3?
You would still get the frame before you lose interest-

[fuzzalow]

There is no chance in this world that Breadwinner would even remotely sniff at a dime of my cycling budget. Never.

From the track record of both of its principal mommalukes, there is no automatic do-over accorded these two on starting up a new bicycle company. Let IR make reparations to all the clients he stole from in his previous incarnation as an independent and the Breadwinner can be judged on it own merits. But not before.

IMO Breadwinner deserves to die on the vine with the same ignominy as IR treated his clients in leaving them to twist in the breeze.

[dekindy]

My criteria for custom.

The deposit will be me purchasing all build materials in advance and my holding them for safekeeping until my place comes up in the que.

The builder will notify me when he is ready to build. I will arrive early on the designated day and leave with a completed bike but not before having ridden the completed bike for a whole day. I would be willing to fork over(pun intended) agreed upon remaining purchase price after riding it for a day and would even agree to escrow the funds with a third party.

Oh, and a written contract that is satisfactory to me.

Have I left anything out?

Oh, and the customer from Hell thrown in.

Sorry about your bad experience but at least you have the resources to get more than one custom bike; not that it should be a consideration but as a frame of reference for those of us that may only do one custom bike or none. Too many of these stories floating about and reference to many more under the surface has me very cautious. Reputable builders have too long a wait time and there is not even a guarantee when going with the larger custom. As a result, my list for custom builders that I would consider is very short indeed.

I am really not complaining. I got a lifetime deal on my Serotta demo and a nice 10-year old Waterford purchased here on the forum so I am very happy with my rides. And also got a very good deal on a Serotta Fierte that I should have kept. However I am tempted buy the Nirvana described with custom but it would be hard to commit as it is very difficult to discern which are the small, repuatable builders that would have an acceptable lead time.

[MadRocketSci]

I've read all the posts, and I'll never buy a Breadwinner or a used Ira Ryan, no matter how beautiful they are. I had a conversation with him at NAHBS in Austin, and he was stuck up, but laughed at my jokes and conversed with me. Kind of like the Rapha guys. A little stuck up and cliquish, but they would engage in conversation.

I volunteered to help set up for the show so I could schmooze with folks beforehand. The Rapha/Brooks/Ira Ryans were jocular in comparison to Geekhouse and Vanilla/Speedvagen. I was in the same taco shop after the Rapha ride on Saturday morning with the entire Vanilla team, and they were the most arrogant pr*cks you could imagine, including the Great One (at least that's how he acted).

The most approachable and down to earth folks I met - Dario, Kent Eriksen, and the Cyfac owner.

I've been to two NAHBS's. There were two kinds of exhibitors. Those who would approach, or make themselves available and approachable, to talk about your interests in cycling and their products. Gave you a good people vibe. Then, there were those who would just act like they didn't give a sh*t that you might be interested in their products. If you did happen to engage them in conversation, if one of their industry buddies came up to them they'd end it right there and start talking about sh*t like the bar they hung out in last night and the barely legal girls they were ogling. And honestly i don't think i'm that big of a dork to need rescuing from (or am I, Steve H. or Jerk?). Anyway, I'd watch grown men approach these people like teenage girls approaching Bieber....I'd have to remind myself "these guys make bikes, right??"

Definitely come away from those things with a "not hot" list....

shout outs to Carl Strong and Bill Holland for being super cool and helpful....

[ORMojo]

As I've followed this thread over the past 24 hours and read the select few names of one-person custom-build shops that we could order from that have (1) A lot more experience, and (2) A lot less drama, I completely agree with Kirk, Bedford, Strong, Sadoff, Ellis . . .

But I feel the need to add DeSalvo. There are doubtless a few others (2-3 additional names readily come to mind), and I don't mean to start a debate about that, but Mike's name just won't leave my head.

[Peter B]

As I've followed this thread over the past 24 hours and read the select few names of one-person custom-build shops that we could order from that have (1) A lot more experience, and (2) A lot less drama, I completely agree with Kirk, Bedford, Strong, Sadoff, Ellis . . .

But I feel the need to add DeSalvo. There are doubtless a few others (2-3 additional names readily come to mind), and I don't mean to start a debate about that, but Mike's name just won't leave my head.

Definitely Mike DeSalvo. Add Roland Della Santa, Paul Sadoff, Steve Rex and do not forget Dazza. All of these folks have years and years and years of proven, consistent output and repeated satisfied clients.

[yashcha]

Our small racing team was planning to order custom Breadwinner framesets, but now we will go with another builder.

Ray, it would have been very difficult for me to walk away from $500, but I am glad you did. The worst part for me would be waiting, and never knowing a firm end date. Best of luck in your new frame search!

[raygunner]

Again, my dealings were not with Breadwinner, as noted. Just want to make that clear.

[pbarry]

Definitely Mike DeSalvo. Add Roland Della Santa, Paul Sadoff, Steve Rex and do not forget Dazza. All of these folks have years and years and years of proven, consistent output and repeated satisfied clients.

Add Tom Kellog, Steve Potts, Marc Nobilette. There are a few more out there who value their craft more than social media feeds.

[JMacII]

Interesting thread. I bought a custom from Jim Kish two years ago. Great communication. Great build. Great bike. No drama.

[saab2000]

Interesting thread. I bought a custom from Jim Kish two years ago. Great communication. Great build. Great bike. No drama.

Most builders are of the no-drama type.

It is important to mention builders from whom I have ordered frames who have been on schedule and on budget with no issues. Those include:

Mike Zanconato
Carl Strong
Independent Fabrication

Good communication. No BS.

[dpk501]

Maybe this can be a Portlandia skit....

Kudos to you for walking away graciously.

And shame on people who don't fulfill their contract. :no:

[malcolm]

Most builders are of the no-drama type.

It is important to mention builders from whom I have ordered frames who have been on schedule and on budget with no issues. Those include:

Mike Zanconato
Carl Strong
Independent Fabrication

Good communication. No BS.

In my prior post I forgot to mention Mike (Zanc). Also a first class operation of one. He built two frames for me and was easy to deal with always responsive and I got exactly what I expected. He has even been responsive to questions and provided info several years later when I sold one of them. 1st class service.

[Dustin]

Hampsten should be added to the no drama list. Kirk already has multiple mentions.

And the on the opposite end there is Matt Chester. There's $ 500 down in 2005 that I'll never see again!

[Lovetoclimb]

Do you think Ira even has 100 frames under his belt?
I bet not.
For new build I hope you are going for experience. Prolific builder with solid track record.
Not some "look at me" builder.
Lugs aren't my Jam, but if they were I would get a Della Santa if going steel fork, Kirk or Bedford if going carbon fork.
How could you go wrong with any of those 3?
You would still get the frame before you lose interest-

Or a Lundbeck (full disclosure, I own 3 and am thinking about a 4th because I have known him long time. . .)

[pbarry]

Maybe a new thread? No drama, great builders who deliver on time, build the agreed upon design and color-way, and communicate well.

[christian]

New thread: builders who would never, ever, ever say "colorway."

[thunderworks]

Please add Jeff Bock in Iowa to the list of honest, fabulous custom builders. Truly an artist and decent human being.

[pbarry]

New thread: builders who would never, ever, ever say "colorway."

I was trying to be inclusive, and used a term that you might relate to. :cool:

[bikser]

I like RayG's approach and perspective on this. While it would easy for me or anybody to fixate on the lost $500, life's short there's bigger things in life to get your blood in a boil. Right after I got married 5 years ago, I rented a condo out to a lowlife serial evictee. Got him out fast, and I have a judgment for over $3k, but is it worth having this lowlife in my life to try and track him down and get it. Heck no. If the deposit is non-refundable, it's just that.

[joosttx]

Most builders are of the no-drama type.

It is important to mention builders from whom I have ordered frames who have been on schedule and on budget with no issues. Those include:

Mike Zanconato
Carl Strong
Independent Fabrication

Good communication. No BS.

For my IF they were like a week or so late. I didn't complain or care. regardless Gary sent me a hand written letter apologizing along with a free kit. Not too shabby.

[fogrider]

did you read the article from "bikeportland.org"?

"Far from just another custom bike brand, Pereira says their five-year plan is to establish a factory, hire welders, and make 1,000 bikes per year."

so a breadwinner will be built in a factory by guys other than TP and IR.

[tigoat]

That is part of the game for buying from an individual builder. It is their game not yours. This is a golden age for bicycle frame builders, as most builders have more customers than they need so it makes no difference to them to have one less happy customer. I personally can't find the reason why I could wait to buy a bicycle/frame for anything more than 1 year, as things can change quickly nowadays. Move on...

[Lionel]

This makes complete sense to me.

FWIW here's why I take a deposit and that it's non-refundable.

When I first started the biz I did not state that it was non-refundable and never even considered going that way. And then I started having issues.

I can't tell you how many times I had someone send a deposit, with what I assume was the best of intentions, and then after a few weeks or a few months change their mind and ask for the money back. If this happened once in a blue moon it would be fine but it was happening with shocking frequency.

I can't say for sure why this was happening but my guess is that having the idea in the back of their heads that they can get the deposit back without issue if they change their minds meant that they often put little thought into it. It becomes like buying a pack of gum.

The problem for the builder may, or may not, be obvious. I can only speak for myself here but when someone asks what my lead time is I look at the number of bikes in the queue and do the simple math. So I quote lead times based on the number of deposits and firm orders I have. The problem comes when folks who were never really committed to the project but just wanted to hedge their bets and have a place in line pull the plug and the length of the queue changes, my cash flow forecasting changes, the amount of raw materials I stock changes, and it effects sales and the taking of new deposits because I'm telling them how long my queue is........or as it turned out how long I thought it was.

It makes sense when you think about it.........a deposit is some 'skin in the game' and show serious intent but if it's refundable just because the client gets bored with the idea then the skin isn't really skin at all. I can't tell you how much time I spent dealing with refunds to folks that were never really committed to the project anyway.

In time I changed my process and now ask for $300 for a deposit and state that it's nonrefundable. This keeps the tire kickers and time wasters out of the mix and allows me to focus on customers who are serious about the purchase and allows me to much more accurately forecast lead times and then deliver on time.

All that said I know that sometimes ····· happens and life deals everyone a tough hand. If for some reason the customer needs to back out or delay the project I happily hold the money here for them and it will be here holding a spot for them until they are in a position where they can start up again.

On rare occasions I offer to refund a deposit.....people get sick, they die, they lose their jobs....bad stuff happens and in those cases I will usually just send them their $300 back. Interestingly those folks almost never ask for the money back. I've told other builders I do this and I've been asked if I worry about people taking advantage and telling me they have cancer so they can get their $300 back. I suppose this could happen - but if someone can sleep at night after lying to someone they have committed to just for $300 they need the money much more than I do and I didn't really want to do business with them anyhow.

Thanks for reading.

dave

[Black Dog]

That is part of the game for buying from an individual builder. It is their game not yours. This is a golden age for bicycle frame builders, as most builders have more customers than they need so it makes no difference to them to have one less happy customer. I personally can't find the reason why I could wait to buy a bicycle/frame for anything more than 1 year, as things can change quickly nowadays. Move on...

Well builders that have the attitude that an unhappy customer is not a big deal because business is good will not be around for a long time. Business is good because the kids that grew up on steel bikes in the 70's-80's-90's and had no money then are now middle aged and have cash (this is most of us here). The current generation is growing up with plastic bikes and will have much less appreciation and nostalgia for steel. It will slow down and the great builders who treat people well will survive in the smaller market that is coming down the line (less old guys and fewer new steel lovers). My opinion anyways.

[William]

Well builders that have the attitude that an unhappy customer is not a big deal because business is good will not be around for a long time. Business is good because the kids that grew up on steel bikes in the 70's-80's-90's and had no money then are now middle aged and have cash (this is most of us here). The current generation is growing up with plastic bikes and will have much less appreciation and nostalgia for steel. It will slow down and the great builders who treat people well will survive in the smaller market that is coming down the line (less old guys and fewer new steel lovers). My opinion anyways.

I think there is a lot of truth in this.

This is the heyday for that generation. The builders that foster good business practices: Good communication and a great product at a fair price will endure. The cliquish, stuck up, "you are privileged to buy my product" guys will fall by the wayside over time. I've been around cycling long enough to see that type of mentality and I don't get it from a business standpoint. Alienating/belittling a potential group of possible buyers doesn't make a lot of sense in the long run. Build your clientele now while the getting is good (to BD's point) because when the guys who came up on plastic/CF start making money out in the real world, the pie is going to start shrinking.

Imo of course.:)





William

[Burnette]

First off, the original post and all that followed have been civil and informative, it's nice to see communication on an adult level where posts don't get diverted on personal rants or get shut down my mods.
"Paceline, where the adults hang out". Well, sometimes, Ha!
When I read the OP, I grabbed for my wallet to make sure it was still there. I have been pondering having a bike built for about a year now and the long lead times from single builders do give me pause. Divorce, impairment, financial disaster, even death, much can happen in a short time to a builder and me too for that matter.
On my end, I have the money set aside already, if calamity befalls me, my estate would cover the cost of the frame, it would be recieved and awarded to someone or sold off.
I think it was good to share the experience OP, it was also good that others shared good experiences because one bad incident effects the community as a whole. When there is a listeria outbreak on spinach, the whole produce section takes a hit as people avoid it trying to protect themselves.
This thread is helpful by putting it into perspective and making the distinction of who it was and how others have a good record for many, many years.
Lastly, Black Dog and William make good points, I have rationalized why I want a stainless steel or tiatnium bike, but subconsciously it may well be that from the days of my youth, that is the way a proper bike should look.
For reference, I'm in my forties.
I would and probably will buy a swoopy carbon bike at some point, they are purported to perform fantastically and some just look so right, but all my saved pictures of bikes are made of metal.

[charliedid]

Bummer for sure RayG. Hope you get a bike you like sooner rather then later.

That said, I refuse to take an actual side on this and find it somewhat hard to fathom all the people who will "Never buy an IR or Breadwinner" because of this deal.

With all due respect we only have half of the story here. I'm not accusing you of lying or misrepresenting your case one bit. I just think in all fairness, both sides of the story need to be known. Otherwise this is just a long winded Yelp rant...

Let the pile-on continue.

PS The customer is not always right, nobody is "always" right. We are all capable of a hiccup or misstep from time to time.

[xeladragon]

For my IF they were like a week or so late. I didn't complain or care. regardless Gary sent me a hand written letter apologizing along with a free kit. Not too shabby.

Wow... free kit for being a week late? That's pretty generous.

[firerescuefin]

Ira and the folks at BW have seen this thread. They also have the opportunity of being the "bigger man" and at least try to make things right....or address their side of the story..... which would garner respect among a lot of folks here.

If the story is as RayG has written it....and based on the credibility he has established here, I choose to believe it is, then the behavior (failure to communicate/meet timelines/take that deposit) is unacceptable.

Ray has been very clear that he did not order from BreadWinner. My take: If the parties involved at BW can't see the bleed over/cross contamination from this, and it doesn't lead them to reach out and make it right....then their business acumen is even worse than it already appears it is.

Bummer for sure RayG. Hope you get a bike you like sooner rather then later.

That said, I refuse to take an actual side on this and find it somewhat hard to fathom all the people who will "Never buy an IR or Breadwinner" because of this deal.

With all due respect we only have half of the story here. I'm not accusing you of lying or misrepresenting your case one bit. I just think in all fairness, both sides of the story need to be known. Otherwise this is just a long winded Yelp rant...

Let the pile-on continue.

PS The customer is not always right, nobody is "always" right. We are all capable of a hiccup or misstep from time to time.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Not to excuse what's happened in this situation by any stretch, but if a builder makes clear some portion of that deposit is non-refundable, I think it's unrealistic to expect to get that money back. The caveat is the builder has to be clear upfront, before any money changes hands, about what portion of the deposit is non-refundable.

I think you are right in 98% of cases, but this one toes the line. The purpose of a deposit is to cover initial costs and to increase the likelihood the customer stays engaged (i.e., doesn't walk away and leave the builder with a one-off bike he has to sell). In most business situations, though, there is a timeline for receiving the item for which a deposit is made. There has to be a sunset after which the builder has defaulted on his obligations, otherwise customers could find themselves in the ridiculous situation of having given money to a company that never makes any bikes at all.

Not saying you should fight it, but I do think you may have swallowed more than your fair share of fault in this situation.

[Bostic]

Business is good because the kids that grew up on steel bikes in the 70's-80's-90's and had no money then are now middle aged and have cash (this is most of us here). The current generation is growing up with plastic bikes and will have much less appreciation and nostalgia for steel. It will slow down and the great builders who treat people well will survive in the smaller market that is coming down the line (less old guys and fewer new steel lovers). My opinion anyways.

I share this opinion too. Back in the late 80's when I was a busboy at a Pizza Parlor a customer would come in often with his Fuso. With its paint job and the Crucible logo, I thought that was about the most bad-assed bike I had ever seen. I wanted one but there was no way I could afford one. Fast forward to 2008 and I snapped a 53cm Black Fuso up the same day it showed up on Craig's list.

I have a couple of carbon bikes still. They are great bikes but I don't connect with them. Also, every year something changes to shove that in your face that you need to upgrade. Different layup no other company can even try to simulate less reproduce themselves. 20% stiffer here, magnetic watt enhancing chain stays there. It's a no win situation as you can never have 'your last carbon bike'.

After some researching I settled with Steve Rex to build my custom Steel bike as his shop is somewhat local and I see his bikes on many of the double centuries I ride. The 5 month wait time was something I was comfortable with after putting down my deposit.

[bobswire]

Bummer for sure RayG. Hope you get a bike you like sooner rather then later.

That said, I refuse to take an actual side on this and find it somewhat hard to fathom all the people who will "Never buy an IR or Breadwinner" because of this deal.

With all due respect we only have half of the story here. I'm not accusing you of lying or misrepresenting your case one bit. I just think in all fairness, both sides of the story need to be known. Otherwise this is just a long winded Yelp rant...

Let the pile-on continue.
PS The customer is not always right, nobody is "always" right. We are all capable of a hiccup or misstep from time to time.


This is not a he said,she said moment.

I think you are right in 98% of cases, but this one toes the line. The purpose of a deposit is to cover initial costs and to increase the likelihood the customer stays engaged (i.e., doesn't walk away and leave the builder with a one-off bike he has to sell). In most business situations, though, there is a timeline for receiving the item for which a deposit is made. There has to be a sunset after which the builder has defaulted on his obligations, otherwise customers could find themselves in the ridiculous situation of having given money to a company that never makes any bikes at all.

Not saying you should fight it, but I do think you may have swallowed more than your fair share of fault in this situation.

I think this is the pertinent point in this matter. The builder did not live up to the original agreement yet felt obliged to honor one aspect of the original agreement, keeping the deposit for a project he himself was unable to fulfill in the agreed upon time. He said ,she said is not in question to my understanding.

[malcolm]

Bummer for sure RayG. Hope you get a bike you like sooner rather then later.

That said, I refuse to take an actual side on this and find it somewhat hard to fathom all the people who will "Never buy an IR or Breadwinner" because of this deal.

With all due respect we only have half of the story here. I'm not accusing you of lying or misrepresenting your case one bit. I just think in all fairness, both sides of the story need to be known. Otherwise this is just a long winded Yelp rant...

Let the pile-on continue.

PS The customer is not always right, nobody is "always" right. We are all capable of a hiccup or misstep from time to time.

You are right, but it seems like there are others as well that have been less than enamored with IR.

[DreaminJohn]

May be NSFW due to language:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAuSTQUa3tM

[raygunner]

Bummer for sure RayG. Hope you get a bike you like sooner rather then later.

That said, I refuse to take an actual side on this and find it somewhat hard to fathom all the people who will "Never buy an IR or Breadwinner" because of this deal.

With all due respect we only have half of the story here. I'm not accusing you of lying or misrepresenting your case one bit. I just think in all fairness, both sides of the story need to be known. Otherwise this is just a long winded Yelp rant...

Let the pile-on continue.

PS The customer is not always right, nobody is "always" right. We are all capable of a hiccup or misstep from time to time.

I fully agree with the with your mention of the folks who say they'll never buy BWC. I don't agree with this and I've noted several times that my dealing was not with that firm.

But have you ever read Yelp?! Those long winded reviews are pretty nasty and petty. My OP was nothing of the sort and I think many other readers would agree based on their replies.

As I noted in my OP, this is just my experience. And I'm not mad or frustrated. This was strictly a business decision. I provided money/time/patience and received zip in the end. Actually, less than zip since I lost money.

Though I remain confused. Yes, confused.

If you're a small framebuilder what excuse is there for constant delays and minimal communication and ultimate not fulfilling an order. Why wouldn't you want to outfit a customer with a bike? Doesn't that make you money? I would of forked over thousands of dollars for my bike. Doesn't that help grow you brand and everything you've worked for? Why would you want to avoid that? It's confounding!

Charlie, you're in retail. What happens to retail locations who treat their customers (who are ready to spend big $$$) this way?

Anyways, I think this whole situation has run it's course. I appreciate the support. I just wish this summer I was riding an Ira Ryan bike.

[p nut]

Bummer for sure RayG. Hope you get a bike you like sooner rather then later.

That said, I refuse to take an actual side on this and find it somewhat hard to fathom all the people who will "Never buy an IR or Breadwinner" because of this deal.

With all due respect we only have half of the story here. I'm not accusing you of lying or misrepresenting your case one bit. I just think in all fairness, both sides of the story need to be known. Otherwise this is just a long winded Yelp rant...

Let the pile-on continue.

PS The customer is not always right, nobody is "always" right. We are all capable of a hiccup or misstep from time to time.

I can see your point and agree, to a certain degree, but not in this scenario. Bottom line is, the original quote was 1.5-2 years, and it's been 2.5-3 years and he's got no frame or one within sight. There are just too many good builders, that I've yet to read stories like this from, that much more deserves my business.

[CNY rider]

. In most business situations, though, there is a timeline for receiving the item for which a deposit is made. There has to be a sunset after which the builder has defaulted on his obligations, otherwise customers could find themselves in the ridiculous situation of having given money to a company that never makes any bikes at all.



Agree.
Here's a tactic I have used when buying cars; perhaps it could work with custom bikes as well.
I see the car salesman, tell him the model I want, options, etc. He tells me he can get it, we work out the deal. He says he can have it by August 1st. I ask if he is sure, and ask for worse case scenario. He says absolutely without question August 15. I say sounds good, I want you to put in the sales contract that if I don't have the car by September 1 I get my full deposit back.

I have never had them refuse to do that. Fortunately I have never had to go ask for the deposit back either.

[AngryScientist]

Agree.
Here's a tactic I have used when buying cars; perhaps it could work with custom bikes as well.
I see the car salesman, tell him the model I want, options, etc. He tells me he can get it, we work out the deal. He says he can have it by August 1st. I ask if he is sure, and ask for worse case scenario. He says absolutely without question August 15. I say sounds good, I want you to put in the sales contract that if I don't have the car by September 1 I get my full deposit back.

I have never had them refuse to do that. Fortunately I have never had to go ask for the deposit back either.

this makes perfect sense to me, a contract sets the boundaries for the agreement after all, for both parties.

[raygunner]

I'll make one final post on this subject.

I did receive an email reply from Ira yesterday. I sent him an email regarding this issue that mirrored the main points my original post (delays, scant communication, priority on BWC) about a week ago. I'm not going to post any of the contents publicly.

And I do appreciate the reply from him and that's that. I'm not looking for anything from this situation other than moving on & enjoying the rest of summer.

This was just one man's experience. BWC looks like they have a nice line-up, my experience was NOT with that firm.

In closing, as a ready, willing & able customer (and with the myriad of options available in the marketplace) I only wish my decision as a consumer produced my own Ira Ryan bike.

Thanks!

[fuzzalow]

I have a couple of carbon bikes still. They are great bikes but I don't connect with them. Also, every year something changes to shove that in your face that you need to upgrade. Different layup no other company can even try to simulate less reproduce themselves. 20% stiffer here, magnetic watt enhancing chain stays there. It's a no win situation as you can never have 'your last carbon bike'.
Slight drift here but...But of course you can! You simply stop buying carbon bikes! The doing of this is often preceeded by the refusal to be taken in by the rash of claims to wonderment of this years crop of carbon bikes. Marketing guys do what marketing guys do.

The builder did not live up to the original agreement yet felt obliged to honor one aspect of the original agreement, keeping the deposit for a project he himself was unable to fulfill in the agreed upon time. He said ,she said is not in question to my understanding.

Agee with this on something that is as clear as day. Yes, sometimes it really is just that simple!

I will never deal with the likes of the kind of people that run BWC. Because I can choose who I wish to deal with in matters of personal affairs. And I choose to deal with persons that exhibit integrity in their manner of business which BWC principals clearly do not have. For those who can't fathom this, then vote with your dollars just as I will.

Some of us in our professional lives must deal with persons or entities that we must deal with. Some are just like the people that run BWC - ya gotta do what ya gotta do. But to pull that kinda sludge into my personal life - no way.

P.S. Ray handled himself admirably throughout all this. It was far more personal for him and is reflected in the manner in how he chooses to move forwards from this transaction gone awry.

I have no skin in the game so I can be much more harsh because I have the objectivity in viewing this as a business transaction.

[likebikes]

did you read the article from "bikeportland.org"?

"Far from just another custom bike brand, Pereira says their five-year plan is to establish a factory, hire welders, and make 1,000 bikes per year."

so a breadwinner will be built in a factory by guys other than TP and IR.

they've already got outside help building the bw bikes, or so I've heard.

[eddief]

telling them their reputations were being dragged through the mud on this Forum and suggesting they might want to intervene. No word yet.

I'll make one final post on this subject.

I did receive an email reply from Ira yesterday. I sent him an email regarding this issue that mirrored the main points my original post (delays, scant communication, priority on BWC) about a week ago. I'm not going to post any of the contents publicly.

And I do appreciate the reply from him and that's that. I'm not looking for anything from this situation other than moving on & enjoying the rest of summer.

This was just one man's experience. BWC looks like they have a nice line-up, my experience was NOT with that firm.

In closing, as a ready, willing & able customer (and with the myriad of options available in the marketplace) I only wish my decision as a consumer produced my own Ira Ryan bike.

Thanks!

[velotrack]

telling them their reputations were being dragged through the mud on this Forum and suggesting they might want to intervene. No word yet.

I think that would ruin the peaceful intentions of the original post, no? That sort of makes it a threat - refund it or make your reputation blown forever.

[p nut]

I think that would ruin the peaceful intentions of the original post, no? That sort of makes it a threat - refund it or make your reputation blown forever.

Their rep is already blown for me. How a company handles a situation without any outside pressures speaks volumes about the people who run that company.

[velotrack]

Their rep is already blown for me. How a company handles a situation without any outside pressures speaks volumes about the people who run that company.

No doubt about that - but forcing a response (no, nothing can change how I feel now, either) doesn't seem like what the OP wanted. Correct me if I'm wrong - I'm just wondering how effective bringing them into this really is.

[bfd]

[QUOTE=John H.;1604254]Lugs aren't my Jam, but if they were I would get a Della Santa if going steel fork, Kirk or Bedford if going carbon fork.
[QUOTE]

This is an interesting statement. I didn't know that Dave Kirk made frames with carbon forks?! I always thought his frames came only with his own steel forks? :eek::butt::confused:

[firerescuefin]

telling them their reputations were being dragged through the mud on this Forum and suggesting they might want to intervene. No word yet.

You and I have a different definition of "dragging someone's reputation through the mud". He told a story. Others are saying that sucks.

I saw somebody take a shot at November Wheels the other day. November got an account and gave a very good explanation and account of their business. I was impressed enough to consider their product. Ira and BW are big boys that love to market via Social Media. Answering Raygunner's post shouldn't be too hard.

I think RayG has been above reproach. How would you of handled this any different. As a member of this community, I am thankful he stepped forward and shared his story.

[54ny77]

That is spot on.

It's happening with classic muscle cars.

There's only so many old guys with a good amount of bucks in their pocket to trade their lusted-after-in-youth cars between each other.

I bet in 20 years a Japanese or Euro go-fast car from today will bring more $ than most classic muscle cars. There will always be exceptions, of course, for the most desirable models. But I think that'll dwindle over time.


Well builders that have the attitude that an unhappy customer is not a big deal because business is good will not be around for a long time. Business is good because the kids that grew up on steel bikes in the 70's-80's-90's and had no money then are now middle aged and have cash (this is most of us here). The current generation is growing up with plastic bikes and will have much less appreciation and nostalgia for steel. It will slow down and the great builders who treat people well will survive in the smaller market that is coming down the line (less old guys and fewer new steel lovers). My opinion anyways.

[Joachim]

[QUOTE=John H.;1604254]Lugs aren't my Jam, but if they were I would get a Della Santa if going steel fork, Kirk or Bedford if going carbon fork.
[QUOTE]

This is an interesting statement. I didn't know that Dave Kirk made frames with carbon forks?! I always thought his frames came only with his own steel forks? :eek::butt::confused:

You are correct. DK does not offer carbon forks anymore.

[John H.]

My bad- Makes it an even more exclusive product then.

[QUOTE=bfd;1604838][QUOTE=John H.;1604254]Lugs aren't my Jam, but if they were I would get a Della Santa if going steel fork, Kirk or Bedford if going carbon fork.


You are correct. DK does not offer carbon forks anymore.

[eddief]

regardless of the OP's peaceful intentions, a buttload of damage has been done. No threat was intended or implied in my actions. Just thought a couple of good guys deserved to know what was being said about them and then just like grown ups, then can decide how to handle the situation.

I think that would ruin the peaceful intentions of the original post, no? That sort of makes it a threat - refund it or make your reputation blown forever.

[indyrider]

Nice rigs, but definitely scratched off my shortlist...

[eddief]

In earlier postings I said how I would have handled it. But to act all innocent cause "he just told a story" and ignore the larger ramifications of what that means to Ira and Tony...I think speaks to being naive about the potential to destroy the business of two probably pretty good guys.

I think we and the OP will probably be hearing more from Tony and Ira fairly soon.

You and I have a different definition of "dragging someone's reputation through the mud". He told a story. Others are saying that sucks.

I saw somebody take a shot at November Wheels the other day. November got an account and gave a very good explanation and account of their business. I was impressed enough to consider their product. Ira and BW are big boys that love to market via Social Media. Answering Raygunner's post shouldn't be too hard.

I think RayG has been above reproach. How would you of handled this any different. As a member of this community, I am thankful he stepped forward and shared his story.

[rnhood]

No damage has been done. The Paceline base is extremely small and nothing has been mentioned criticizing their quality or skill. In fact RayG - even after all that he went through, and all that has been said here - still appears to wish he had the IRA built bike. It just didn't work out.

[Peter B]

In earlier postings I said how I would have handled it. But to act all innocent cause "he just told a story" and ignore the larger ramifications of what that means to Ira and Tony...I think speaks to being naive about the potential to destroy the business of two probably pretty good guys.

I think we and the OP will probably be hearing more from Tony and Ira fairly soon.

Being a pretty good guy and a pretty good businessman are distinct characteristics. I generally funnel my discretionary cycling dollars into the hands of builders who consistently manifest both attributes.

[LJohnny]

In earlier postings I said how I would have handled it. But to act all innocent cause "he just told a story" and ignore the larger ramifications of what that means to Ira and Tony...I think speaks to being naive about the potential to destroy the business of two probably pretty good guys.

I think we and the OP will probably be hearing more from Tony and Ira fairly soon.

Actually eddief, it is a pretty bad story. I think the OP is doing us a great service. I cannot fathom how is this story, unless the facts exposed are really distorted by the OP, is dragging the builder's name on the mud. They did that themselves. The greatest disservice a business can do to itself is to neglect its customers. It seems that in this case, the neglect and lack of consideration went well beyond what I would consider reasonable here. Just my $0.02

[firerescuefin]

In earlier postings I said how I would have handled it. But to act all innocent cause "he just told a story" and ignore the larger ramifications of what that means to Ira and Tony...I think speaks to being naive about the potential to destroy the business of two probably pretty good guys.

I think we and the OP will probably be hearing more from Tony and Ira fairly soon.

I'm not naive at all. I think Ray got hosed and one and potentially two "pretty good guys" made some bad decisions. Ray is letting the community hear his story. Ira has shown he knows how to operate a computer. They knew about this post within minutes to hours of it being posted. Don't be naive.

I'm looking forward to hearing "his side of the story"

If you handle your business this stuff tends not to happen. Funny, I've never heard similar stories regarding the other builders mentioned in this thread.

[bcroslin]

regardless of the OP's peaceful intentions, a buttload of damage has been done. No threat was intended or implied in my actions. Just thought a couple of good guys deserved to know what was being said about them and then just like grown ups, then can decide how to handle the situation.

Just exactly how much damage do you think has been done? How many active members of this forum do you think were ready to buy a custom frame and now won't buy from Breadwinner? 3 or 4 people? 10? Ira and Breadwinner have so much business that they can't keep up with the work in the queue. If Raygunner really wanted to drag Ira through the mud he would have gone to social media and bombed Breadwinner/ Ira and could have potentially reached tens of thousands of people including people who are currently waiting for bikes. If I were Ira I would consider myself lucky.

[bfd]

:mad:Just exactly how much damage do you think has been done? How many active members of this forum do you think were ready to buy a custom frame and now won't buy from Breadwinner? 3 or 4 people? 10? Ira and Breadwinner have so much business that they can't keep up with the work in the queue. If Raygunner really wanted to drag Ira through the mud he would have gone to social media and bombed Breadwinner/ Ira and could have potentially reached tens of thousands of people including people who are currently waiting for bikes. If I were Ira I would consider myself lucky.

I hope you're right, especially about IR and BW having "so much business they can't keep up." Obviously, they have so much business that they could afford to ignore the OP and take his money.

Further, there is at least one person here who said that his "small racing team" was planning on ordering BW framesets and are now going elsewhere because of this thread! :eek::mad:

As someone who is interested in getting a steel frame, I know that IR, TP and BW are definitely off my list! Good Luck!

[Waldo]

Snip:

Funny, I've never heard similar stories regarding the other builders mentioned in this thread.


Agree completely. Over the years, I've read several similar threads in which the OPs steadfastly refused to name the builders who has wronged them. Back then, there was a split as to whether the builder should be outed, but other than with Paul Taylor, that was very rarely done. Now that IR has been outed, everyone sings RG's praises for the way he handled it -- and I have no qualms -- it's apparently no big deal.

[crankles]

I for one *STILL* want to know what RayGunner has coming his way!!!!

and FWIW, I have two Speedvagens, two Alliances, and an IF. Stellar communication from all of them from beginning to end.

[Ahneida Ride]

Lugs aren't my Jam, but if they were I would get a Della Santa if going steel fork, Kirk or Bedford if going carbon fork.


Bedford lugged steel comes standard with a steel fork.
Bedford Tig has a carbon fork. (one can upgrade to steel and many do)

[eddief]

they each tell 10 bike riding buddies, you do the math.

Just exactly how much damage do you think has been done? How many active members of this forum do you think were ready to buy a custom frame and now won't buy from Breadwinner? 3 or 4 people? 10? Ira and Breadwinner have so much business that they can't keep up with the work in the queue. If Raygunner really wanted to drag Ira through the mud he would have gone to social media and bombed Breadwinner/ Ira and could have potentially reached tens of thousands of people including people who are currently waiting for bikes. If I were Ira I would consider myself lucky.

[firerescuefin]

they each tell 10 bike riding buddies, you do the math.

On this we agree....and why I'd get out in front of this one way or another if I'm associated with BW.

[firerescuefin]

Snip:




Agree completely. Over the years, I've read several similar threads in which the OPs steadfastly refused to name the builders who has wronged them. Back then, there was a split as to whether the builder should be outed, but other than with Paul Taylor, that was very rarely done. Now that IR has been outed, everyone sings RG's praises for the way he handled it -- and I have no qualms -- it's apparently no big deal.

Don't disagree with what you wrote, but I was referring to the builders whose business practices are above reproach. There is a reason they're not linked to threads like this.

[pbarry]

Snip:




Agree completely. Over the years, I've read several similar threads in which the OPs steadfastly refused to name the builders who has wronged them.Back then, there was a split as to whether the builder should be outed, but other than with Paul Taylor, that was very rarely done. Now that IR has been outed, everyone sings RG's praises for the way he handled it -- and I have no qualms -- it's apparently no big deal.

And that's the prerogative of the original poster.

There was a recent thread on a frame that was not delivered as specified. The majority wanted to know the identity of the builder, and the OP steadfastly refused to "out" them as he was seeking advice in dealing with the situation.

Total respect for how RG and JM have handled their individual threads. :beer:

[FlashUNC]

I'm not naive at all. I think Ray got hosed and one and potentially two "pretty good guys" made some bad decisions. Ray is letting the community hear his story. Ira has shown he knows how to operate a computer. They knew about this post within minutes to hours of it being posted. Don't be naive.

I'm looking forward to hearing "his side of the story"

If you handle your business this stuff tends not to happen. Funny, I've never heard similar stories regarding the other builders mentioned in this thread.

Its only fair. If we laud builders who do outstanding work, so too should we hear the stories about less-than-optimal outcomes.

Sunshine tends to be the best disinfectant.

[thenewguy11]

I'll reiterate that I think this thread has enormous value and I wish more people would share like this. Seriously how hard is it to send a reply email to a confirmed customer? Does he have 10,000 folks in the queue? If you have so much business you can't keep up, you can probably hire someone to respond to emails.

Kudos to the OP for the zen attitude. We've all had bad experiences that cost us money and wished we could expose the fraud and really show them. I still think about the general contractor who bailed on my remodel and cost me a couple thousand bucks (not sure I'll let that go until I collect on the court order). But ultimately this thread will help like minded people avoid a hassle and maybe steer business to some top notch builders (Mr. Kirk's response earlier just elevates him even further in my eyes). And that's enough. It's why I like this place.

[gearguywb]

Thank you for sharing this. I have had a similar experience, but fortunately that experience was outweighed by several very positive ones.

I have been fortunate to go through the purchase process for a few different custom bikes. Moots (semi-custom), Strong (x3), and Kirk. All of these were wonderful experiences, with Carl being the first custom for me and, due to that experience, made me see the value in going this route.

Unfortunately I had a very similar experience to yours a few years ago when I ordered a custom carbon bike. Lack of communication, missed dates, etc. Eventually received a complete refund.

Some builders out there do amazing work, while balancing life/work/responsibilities. Those folks are an amazing bunch, and you could not find more pleasant process to go through to get that long awaited new ride.

Damn....I need to go look at that Hampsten, Strong and Kirk pages again....

[gavingould]

kudos to RayGunner taking the zen high road and laying it all out for the rest of us. very matter-of-fact.

i don't know that i've read anything about the other half of BW having issues, but i do recall seeing once or twice people being bummed on Ira's ability to keep timelines and communication flowing. no doubt the guy can build a nice bike, he may even be a stand-up chap. this is an outright change in business model though, i agree that he should've built the custom as ordered and he took deposit for or refund completely. bit of a bait-and-switch played out over three years.

obviously the timeline got away from him at some point during the switch to BW focus, and he should have been able to work this out better with the customer. if you can't build it within a reasonable timeline (and it looks like raygunner was more than reasonable here) or will no longer build what you sold the customer, you should return that deposit. "non-refundable" from my perspective here is to protect the builder only; if he'd bought the tubes and was really about to start putting the torch to it when raygunner walked away, then sure, Ira should keep what he'd spent, but give back the rest as I'd say he was in breach of contract.
and yeah, i get that generally these are more handshake agreements and not 'contracts' per se.

Breadwinner bikes are pretty appealing, but they ain't the same as what was ordered.

really appreciate Dave Kirk's words and perspective in this thread as well, among others.

[eddief]

since early Friday, but has been unable to even activate an account here on the forum. Not sayin it will make any difference, just saying he might have been able to explain his side...oh maybe 10,000 views ago. But who gives a crap about what 10,000 peple read or think. Right? It's just a little zen-like story someone told on the net.

[Ahneida Ride]

since early Friday, but has been unable to even activate an account here on the forum.

I assure all members that new accounts are activated asap.

[firerescuefin]

I assure all members that new accounts are activated asap.

Glad we can lay that consipiracy theory to rest.

[fuzzalow]

since early Friday, but has been unable to even activate an account here on the forum. Not sayin it will make any difference, just saying he might have been able to explain his side...oh maybe 10,000 views ago. But who gives a crap about what 10,000 peple read or think. Right? It's just a little zen-like story someone told on the net.

My goodness me. Another tale of woe, another excuse. Such urgency to now be heard in a forum discussion unmatched by the same responsiveness to a client in an actual professional business transaction.

I am interested in what IR has to say if he really wants to say it. C'mon eddief, IR's a big boy, let him fight his own battles.

[Ahneida Ride]

Few members really know how much effort Keith puts in behind the scenes
keeping the joint up and running and problem free.

Without Keith, there would be no Phorum. It's that simple.
No Keith and the Phorum would be down within a week.

Please understand that Keith has a REAL job and a family too.

[Ahneida Ride]

Glad we can lay that consipiracy theory to rest.

Wish we could lay to rest others ! :banana:

[Uncle Jam's Army]

since early Friday, but has been unable to even activate an account here on the forum. Not sayin it will make any difference, just saying he might have been able to explain his side...oh maybe 10,000 views ago. But who gives a crap about what 10,000 peple read or think. Right? It's just a little zen-like story someone told on the net.

I don't get it. If he wants to respond, he will get his opportunity. I do not know why he waited until just yesterday to attempt to activate an account and I am not sure why he hasn't prepared a statement to have someone pass it along in the interim, if he's so concerned regarding any "harm" that may have been caused by the OP.

For the record, I don't see what the OP did as in any way wrong or causing "harm." It seems the harm was caused by the builder's inability or refusal to manage his communications with his clients [not the first story I've heard regarding this builder, either]. The OP, just like you and I, has a right to air his point of view (First Amendment and all that). I, for one, am glad the OP exercised that right and shared it with us. The builder can do the same, if he wishes.

[firerescuefin]

since early Friday, but has been unable to even activate an account here on the forum. Not sayin it will make any difference, just saying he might have been able to explain his side...oh maybe 10,000 views ago. But who gives a crap about what 10,000 peple read or think. Right? It's just a little zen-like story someone told on the net.

He's got your e-mail address. Perhaps you can act a proxy. As passionate as you are about this, I imagine you've extended that offer already.

[christian]

Eddief, just out of curiosity, is there any business failure to deliver that it's ok to disclose by your measure? If you bought a TV on Amazon and they failed to deliver in twice the promised time, but promised you a different TV instead, is that ok? Should you not post that because Jeff Bezos is an amazing, soulful dude?

Look, sometimes when you run a one-man shop, ···· happens. But then you need to deal with it. If Ira didn't want to build Ira Ryans any more, all he had to say was "Hey customers, I'm really sorry, but I'm focusing on Breadwinner and can't build custom bikes any more. Here's your $500 bucks back plus 2% prevailing interest, I'm really sorry." Or he can deliver them in a reasonably timely manner. Those aren't tough things to do.

Holding frame builders to a different standard than other sole proprietors is nonsense and it does a disservice to those among them who really have their ···· together.

If this thread sells a few more Kirks, Hampsten, DeSalvos, that's GREAT. Those guys deserve it and toil every day to preserve their reputation.

[velomonkey]

Whoa - I read almost every reply on this thread. First off, I call BS - anyone on twitter, instagram et al says they are trying to get on paceline but can't is pulling something out of their butt. Just more lies.

Second, sorry someone had to go through this and given that it's best to skeptical of any business this Ira chucklehead is associated with.

Third, I've purchased 2 hand made bikes from small builders. A land shark in 1992 and a Firefly in 2013. My landshark was stolen, but recovered. The person who took it tried to strip the paint - and did on the fork - so I called John and he said "send the bike back, I'll strip it and repaint it at cost." I think I paid a few hundred and even changed the paint - it was done within a week. That's service. The firefly guys were awesome - I did a fitting session, calls, changed my mind on electric or mechanical - my emails were responded to each time. Even after the sale I email Kevin and he emails back.

Oh, and the rapha comment - I did their group ride in NYC about 3 years ago. Lot's off attitude. At a stop light on the way out I got the call for my union card "so . . . what cat are you?" I said, "doesn't matter I suck." Then someone noticed a small tattoo I had and suddenly I was in the group. So I dropped their ass. When we got back together he said "I thought you said you suck?" I said "I do, you just suck more."

I can't stand these new uber jerks.

[christian]

Note that Raygunner didn't even ask for a refund. But character would demand one was offered!

[rallizes]

Eddief, just out of curiosity, is there any business failure to deliver that it's ok to disclose by your measure? If you bought a TV on Amazon and they failed to deliver in twice the promised time, but promised you a different TV instead, is that ok? Should you not post that because Jeff Bezos is an amazing, soulful dude?

Look, sometimes when you run a one-man shop, ···· happens. But then you need to deal with it. If Ira didn't want to build Ira Ryans any more, all he had to say was "Hey customers, I'm really sorry, but I'm focusing on Breadwinner and can't build custom bikes any more. Here's your $500 bucks back plus 2% prevailing interest, I'm really sorry." Or he can deliver them in a reasonably timely manner. Those aren't tough things to do.

Holding frame builders to a different standard than other sole proprietors is nonsense and it does a disservice to those among them who really have their ···· together.

If this thread sells a few more Kirks, Hampsten, DeSalvos, that's GREAT. Those guys deserve it and toil every day to preserve their reputation.

Thank you for saying exactly what I am thinking.

[bluesea]

Note that Raygunner didn't even ask for a refund. But character would demand one was offered!


Agree.

From the change in business models and the manner in which he's handled the transition, for Ira Ryan custom frames are commodities. I would hazard the guess that for many who choose to order custom frames, the value of that frame is so much more.

[eddief]

I would have gotten out of it before it got to a point of going public on the web with my story. I would have confronted Ira, demanded my money back a long time ago, and moved on. If need be I would have threatened Ira with going public in order to get my money back. If Ira did not give me a full refund and was continuing to be a jerk, then I probably would have done what Ray did. I said that many postings ago. Way back Ray wondered what the damage would be from posting the story. I never wondered.

I probably would have told individual friends of mine looking for a custom that my experience with Ira was not very good. But my value system about blabbing to the world on the net about this kind of stuff is more reserved than some fellow forumites.

Eddief, just out of curiosity, is there any business failure to deliver that it's ok to disclose by your measure? If you bought a TV on Amazon and they failed to deliver in twice the promised time, but promised you a different TV instead, is that ok? Should you not post that because Jeff Bezos is an amazing, soulful dude?

Look, sometimes when you run a one-man shop, ···· happens. But then you need to deal with it. If Ira didn't want to build Ira Ryans any more, all he had to say was "Hey customers, I'm really sorry, but I'm focusing on Breadwinner and can't build custom bikes any more. Here's your $500 bucks back plus 2% prevailing interest, I'm really sorry." Or he can deliver them in a reasonably timely manner. Those aren't tough things to do.

Holding frame builders to a different standard than other sole proprietors is nonsense and it does a disservice to those among them who really have their ···· together.

If this thread sells a few more Kirks, Hampsten, DeSalvos, that's GREAT. Those guys deserve it and toil every day to preserve their reputation.

[bluesea]

^ dick

[brando]

Great thread, I've been following it since it was only 4 pages long. :p I think some people overestimate the impact of having an internet discussion. We're all grown-ups and can make up our own minds. If a builder is doing most things right, one bad experience isn't going to tank his rep. Especially with the nonstop stream-of-consciousness/half-baked bather that is social media. Even a prolific thread like this is a drop in the ocean. But a valuable one, because it prompts the right questions that should be asked of any builder you haven't worked with before. I think the bike biz attracts certain ppl for the style/lifestyle and professional business practices are not "fun" so not the top priority for a certain "type".

[firerescuefin]

Ray got shat on cause Ray allowed himself to get shat on.


You've got a very interesting sense of right and wrong in this case.

If you "shat" on someone. You don't have a right to critique their response.

Ray was hopeful. Ray's goodwill was taken advantage of. Ray punched out and shared his story.

.....yet Ira's the victim because the internet has ceased to work for him.

[firerescuefin]

I think the universe of custom bike builders/bike buyers is pretty small. Unless you are a Jim Jones follower of this builder (i.e. you were weighing other options)....I'd say a thread like this could be pretty harmful.


Great thread, I've been following it since it was only 4 pages long. :p I think some people overestimate the impact of having an internet discussion. We're all grown-ups and can make up our own minds. If a builder is doing most things right, one bad experience isn't going to tank his rep. Especially with the nonstop stream-of-consciousness/half-baked bather that is social media. Even a prolific thread like this is a drop in the ocean. But a valuable one, because it prompts the right questions that should be asked of any builder you haven't worked with before. I think the bike biz attracts certain ppl for the style/lifestyle and professional business practices are not "fun" so not the top priority for a certain "type".

[bobswire]

I would have gotten out of it before it got to a point of going public on the web with my story. I would have confronted Ira, demanded my money back a long time ago, and moved on. If need be I would have threatened Ira with going public in order to get my money back. If Ira did not give me a full refund and was continuing to be a jerk, then I probably would have done what Ray did. I said that many postings ago. Way back Ray wondered what the damage would be from posting the story. I never wondered.

I probably would have told individual friends of mine looking for a custom that my experience with Ira was not very good. But my value system about blabbing to the world on the net about this kind of stuff is more reserved than some fellow forumites.

Ray didn't let it get out of hand, he handled it as well as can be expected under the circumstances. Rather than completely go ape ···· he dropped it after numerous attempts to finding recourse. I have no idea how you can come to a differently opinion. Besides the fact I've have had dealings with Ray as has other for a number of years and all have been exemplary as I have with you which makes your thoughts in this thread dumbfounding (at least to me).

[raygunner]

Alright, let's put this to bed. I'm a little surprised on where this issue has gone.

Firstly, as noted in my OP. IR is a very nice guy. I was not defrauded or cheated, deposit aside. That is not the issue. The issue is that I was ignored as a customer.

And bottom line, he's selling a product. Right?

So maybe his business acumen isn't the best. That's fine. Again, I understand delays but not endless. In the end, he left a ready, willing & able buyer to whither away. Mind you, a customer who would of spent thousands of dollars on his product. Seriously, big money. What's the excuse for that? You have other priority other than earning bread?

In the end, if these delays/other priorities/life issues were going to indefinitely push back the production of my bike, do you know what could of helped? SOME COMMUNICATION!

As for my OP & this discussion. He's in a business and sometimes there's some constructive criticism due to the issues I brought up. Again, he's very nice guy, this is not character assassination. I was extremely reasonable in my OP. No drama, just that the product advertised could not be delivered and all I wanted to do was walk away.

I don't want my deposit but I just wish I had a IR bike and my opportunity costs back. How could anyone think that is unreasonable?

And I'll state this again: I'm sure BWC has some great things to offer. My dealings are not with that firm.

Finally, I'll hit on the "shat on" comment. Despite my unanswered emails & delays, I didn't see the need to beg & or cajole him throughout this process. Why does a ready, willing & able customer have to be a dick/thorn in the side/constant bother to SPEND THOUSANDS OF MY HARD EARNED DOLLARS?!

America is a business, right?

[raygunner]

^ dick

+1

[raygunner]

And one more thing in closing. I don't mean any harm to the guy. But maybe he can rework his business priorities. It seems like he can build a mean bike. But a few posters have noted that what I did was unfair & mean spirited. I do feel bad because that was not my intention.

But I'll say this. Somone noted there are thousans of members on this forum. And out of the countless posts here I have yet to see one poster counter my experience with one of their own.

[Ahneida Ride]

Ira's account was activated yesterday. About 18:45 EST.

The mods would appreciated the exact details as to why it cannot be
accessed and we will do our best to get this squared away asap.

Yes, its computer hardware and software and "stuff" does happen.

Please understand the Keith simply can't jump when glitches occur.

[Ahneida Ride]

Uh .... is it time to close this one ? :confused:

[jr59]

please

[bcroslin]

Uh .... is it time to close this one ? :confused:

IMO the new thread with Ira's response ought to be combined with this thread and then locked.

[Climb01742]

Not sure I'd agree on locking. One member's isolated take on a subject shouldn't lead to what 99% of people seem to feel is a worthwhile airing of an experience.

[bcroslin]

Not sure I'd agree on locking. One member's isolated take on a subject shouldn't lead to what 99% of people seem to feel is a worthwhile airing of an experience.

I would agree but the letter Ira wrote is not helping and the other thread is quickly becoming a sh!$ show.

[christian]

I'd combine and lock. Both principals have been heard, and there's been ample time to discuss. At some point it brings more heat than light. I think we've reached that point.

[Climb01742]

Maybe locking makes sense but it sets a bad precedent. What the sole member couldn't accomplish by reason or argument, he achieves by fouling the waters. That seems wrong.

[raygunner]

Maybe locking makes sense but it sets a bad precedent. What the sole member couldn't accomplish by reason or argument, he achieves by fouling the waters. That seems wrong.

I'm sorry but you're mistaken, I didn't foul the waters. The events as noted in my OP are exactly what occurred. IR in his letter (in the other post) confirmed this.

I walked away from the business arrangement without drama/stress/B.S.

But I'm still able to voice my displeasure at the situation.

And again, I don't have to reason and/or argue with anyone who I've contracted to do business with. And that's my prerogative. I don't see the need to argue & fight with someone in order to spend my money.

If my business wasn't desired anymore I should have been informed.

[bluesea]

Do not combine both threads.

There is a reason the builders name was not included in the title of this thread, and a different reason it was included in eddief's thread.

[William]

At this point I'm not locking this thread. It has remained fairly civil and mostly to the point. I did close the response thread though. The builder in question was able to get his letter posted and many members responded with their thoughts. Mr. Ryan can respond here, or not. As long as it remains civil and on-point, I see no reason to go that route.






William

[Dead Man]

I'm sorry but you're mistaken, I didn't foul the waters. The events as noted in my OP are exactly what occurred. IR in his letter (in the other post) confirmed this.

I walked away from the business arrangement without drama/stress/B.S.

But I'm still able to voice my displeasure at the situation.

And again, I don't have to reason and/or argue with anyone who I've contracted to do business with. And that's my prerogative. I don't see the need to argue & fight with someone in order to spend my money.

If my business wasn't desired anymore I should have been informed.

You didn't "walk away," though- you drug it here.

Done is done. You obviously weren't done- you were still frustrated and feeling shorted and wronged, so you vindictively posted here.

I don't think you're a bad person, and I don't think you consciously posted maliciously... but it's probably time to own up to the fact that this is a revenge thread, and it was definitely your intent to cause injury to the Ira- and mission accomplished: he's dedinitely gonna lose a lot more than your $500 deposit, now.

Tit for tat... revenge has been had... Someone please close this train wreck, now?

[Climb01742]

I'm sorry but you're mistaken, I didn't foul the waters. The events as noted in my OP are exactly what occurred. IR in his letter (in the other post) confirmed this.

I walked away from the business arrangement without drama/stress/B.S.

But I'm still able to voice my displeasure at the situation.

And again, I don't have to reason and/or argue with anyone who I've contracted to do business with. And that's my prerogative. I don't see the need to argue & fight with someone in order to spend my money.

If my business wasn't desired anymore I should have been informed.

Dude, I wasn't talking about you. Not by a mile. I meant eddief. You were/are 100% in the right, IMO. The vast majority of members thank you for raising the topic. One other member derailed what was/is a worthwhile discussion.

[phcollard]

... You were/are 100% in the right, IMO. The vast majority of members thank you for raising the topic.

Yes.

And also I really don't see this one as Ray's "revenge thread". Ray did the right thing and I'm thankful to him.

[Climb01742]

At this point I'm not locking this thread. It has remained fairly civil and mostly to the point. I did close the response thread though. The builder in question was able to get his letter posted and many members responded with their thoughts. Mr. Ryan can respond here, or not. As long as it remains civil and on-point, I see no reason to go that route.






William

Thank you, William. Every member is, without a doubt, entitled to voice their POV. But I think eddief took things a bit far and that changed the tenor of the thread. I may be wrong, but I see this as a valuable thread that has been both civil and enlightening, and the ability of the many to discuss this topic should not be derailed by one dissent. Dissent should always be heard but not, IMO, derail the majority.

[93legendti]

dude, i wasn't talking out you. Not by a mile. I meant eddief. You were/are 100% in the right, imo. The vast majority of members thank you for raising the topic. One other member derailed what was/is a worthwhile discussion.

+1

[shovelhd]

Oh, and the rapha comment - I did their group ride in NYC about 3 years ago. Lot's off attitude. At a stop light on the way out I got the call for my union card "so . . . what cat are you?" I said, "doesn't matter I suck." Then someone noticed a small tattoo I had and suddenly I was in the group. So I dropped their ass. When we got back together he said "I thought you said you suck?" I said "I do, you just suck more."

I can't stand these new uber jerks.

That is outstanding.

[firerescuefin]

....but it's probably time to own up to the fact that this is a revenge thread, and it was definitely your intent to cause injury to the Ira- and mission accomplished: he's dedinitely gonna lose a lot more than your $500 deposit...

He let the community know. For that I am thankful...and you should be as well. As I mentioned in this thread earlier, I really came away liking the BW lineup after NAHBS Denver. They weren't on the top of my list but they were in the top 5. Knowing what I know, I would be foolish to enter into a transaction with them (and I am saying them, since his partner did not/has not stepped in and BW is his brand as well) without having some reservations.

RayG did it a lot nicer and more diplomatic than 99% of us would have been capable of. Not sure what else you could/would expect from him other than saying nothing. We all love bikes. Many spend small fortunes on custom bikes, while others pinch pennies with the hope/idea of being able to close the deal on one. I fall in the later category. This subject is going to strike a chord with pretty much every one on here....and the direction it was going to go was predictable. That has nothing to do with RayG.

"Intent to cause injury" ....is over the top and wrong IMO

"Buyer beware" would be more accurate.

[velomonkey]

You didn't "walk away," though- you drug it here.

Done is done. You obviously weren't done- you were still frustrated and feeling shorted and wronged, so you vindictively posted here.


Tit for tat... revenge has been had... Someone please close this train wreck, now?

This is all a bit too strongly worded. Vindictive and Revenge were not what this is about: more like Caveat emptor.

Let's look at the facts: he basically said what happened and it was really only customer service - or rather - lack thereof and a failure for basic communication. He didn't post the builder's company name in the title. He made sure to note time and time again this wasn't about bad bikes or breadwinner. Now, on Ira's side - assuming that is his letter - Ira disputes nothing. He then goes and creates another company with another builder, but does nothing to inform any of his previous clients how this changes their timeframe. He doesn't even dispute, at all, the OP's narrative of events. And then Ira hides behind "it's well stated that the deposit is non refundable." So, no soup for you.

People buy custom bikes for all sorts of reasons, part of it is the bike and part of it is the builder(s). Given the way Ira treated this guy, and then also given his churlish response it's not a builder I want to do business with, but that's my choice.

Revenge and Vindictive aren't the right terms. And I hope Ira and other would-be builders learned a lesson, but I digress.

[jr59]

You didn't "walk away," though- you drug it here.

Done is done. You obviously weren't done- you were still frustrated and feeling shorted and wronged, so you vindictively posted here.

I don't think you're a bad person, and I don't think you consciously posted maliciously... but it's probably time to own up to the fact that this is a revenge thread, and it was definitely your intent to cause injury to the Ira- and mission accomplished: he's dedinitely gonna lose a lot more than your $500 deposit, now.

Tit for tat... revenge has been had... Someone please close this train wreck, now?

I think you and I strongly disagree with you on this!

[wooly]

I think you're wrong. You see, Ray's been a long time contributor to this forum. I took this, as most have, as an honest telling of what occurred. The result was, again for most, a reference of sorts so that others could have another data point to IR's work and work ethic. You've made a big assumption on Ray's intent. The result of Ray's post was what IR earned. Karma is a bitch.

You didn't "walk away," though- you drug it here.

Done is done. You obviously weren't done- you were still frustrated and feeling shorted and wronged, so you vindictively posted here.

I don't think you're a bad person, and I don't think you consciously posted maliciously... but it's probably time to own up to the fact that this is a revenge thread, and it was definitely your intent to cause injury to the Ira- and mission accomplished: he's dedinitely gonna lose a lot more than your $500 deposit, now.

Tit for tat... revenge has been had... Someone please close this train wreck, now?

[Burnette]

First, Velomonkey, on the Rapha poseur posse, you rock, the clique'ish side of cycling needs to be dropped and you did just that, laughed hard at that.
To William, thanks for not locking this, this thread is such an anomaly compared to other forums, it never devolved into troll'ish rants or name calling. That is almost unheard of nowadays, hard to find another example of such. It should stand as evidence that it can happen and for others to aspire to.
To move the football and add something, I would like to say that, participants aside, what I learned here from all of this is that when I do start the process of having a bike built, I should not be nonchalant about the details or the relationship. It is partly an emotional experience but at the end of the day it is a business transaction. Remodel the kitchen, have a custom hutch made, you want it done right and on time, a custom frame should be no different.
The choice of builder has narrowed due to this thread, length of career, number of frames made, length of que trumps slick flikr pics and good web page. (a long que is a sign of desireablity, a good thing, but a very long que such as over a year will be seen as a higher risk, more opportunity for things to go wrong, will be weighed into the decision).
Communication will be frequent with the choice made.
Suprisingly there are many builders out there to choose from who appear to be solid, so there isn't a lack of good ones, but the good of this thread reinforces in me that I should go to who I belive IMO is not only good, but the best. In all facets of the business.
Thanks to the OP for starting this thread all who have givenn to it, it wasn't for naught, I got something good out of it.
Screw the heart, go with the head first and then the heart and cultivate the relationship.

[Llewellyn]

It is absolutely correct and reasonable for Ray (or anyone else) to post a thread like this and to name the business involved, as long as the other party has the opportunity to respond and present their side of the facts.

Then people can make their own decisions abut who to believe and whether to deal with the business involved.

Well done Ray for being so reasonable about the whole thing. I would probably have done the same in the end.

[Nags&Ducs]

You didn't "walk away," though- you drug it here.

Done is done. You obviously weren't done- you were still frustrated and feeling shorted and wronged, so you vindictively posted here.

I don't think you're a bad person, and I don't think you consciously posted maliciously... but it's probably time to own up to the fact that this is a revenge thread, and it was definitely your intent to cause injury to the Ira- and mission accomplished: he's dedinitely gonna lose a lot more than your $500 deposit, now.

Tit for tat... revenge has been had... Someone please close this train wreck, now?

Even if it was a revenge thread, so what?

IR and BW reaps what they sow. Just like Goodrich. Paul Taylor. Treat your customers like gold. Or treat them the way these clowns have, and they are forever tainted.

[brando]

Do you see what happens Larry? Do you see what happens when you contract with a frame builder not named Dario Pegoretti!

http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/2009/09-131-tandmaleanimal/03.jpg
This is what happens Larry! This is what happens when you contract with a frame builder not named Dario Pegoretti!

[mosca]

Question for the OP: Did you ever explicitly ask for your original 500 dollar deposit back? Because if you didn't, I can somewhat see why Mr. Ryan doesn't seem very concerned in his response.

[Dead Man]

Even if it was a revenge thread, so what?

IR and BW reaps what they sow. Just like Goodrich. Paul Taylor. Treat your customers like gold. Or treat them the way these clowns have, and they are forever tainted.

I'm not saying it wasn't justified - I think it was overkill, personally - but my point is that it's done it's retributive damage and I think this crap should be shut down, post haste.

Bad press like this is horrible for a small, niche, highly-networked-clientele business like this, and 16 pages of hatred is 15 pages of kicking that dead horse into a bloody pulp.

[weaponsgrade]

Ray, thanks for posting

[arazate]

Thanks Ray! What I took from it.....
1) Research your builder
2) Have a written contract....(any template's out there?)
3) With a deposit, non-refundable up to a point. Contract should contain a not to exceed date; at that point deposit is returned.

What I was thinking about was what is the best way to let others know about your experience? Certainly not saying its the case here, but a builder could have a bad moment customer service-wise and with only one negative mention online his business could collapse.

Just thoughts from a guy who has a couple of customs under his belt.-AJ

[velomonkey]

Bad press like this is horrible for a small, niche, highly-networked-clientele business like this, and 16 pages of hatred is 15 pages of kicking that dead horse into a bloody pulp.

^^^ This is funny only because immediately below your comment is another forum member, who has yet to post on this thread, thanking the Original Poster for posting said thread. This is a large forum - just like the potential client base for any given frame builder is large - you gotta take the good with the bad. Instagram and studio shots aren't the only way to sell a frame.

[93legendti]

ray, thanks for posting

+1

[wooly]

I'm not saying it wasn't justified - I think it was overkill, personally - but my point is that it's done it's retributive damage and I think this crap should be shut down, post haste.

Bad press like this is horrible for a small, niche, highly-networked-clientele business like this, and 16 pages of hatred is 15 pages of kicking that dead horse into a bloody pulp.

You must be reading this thread with a different filter than me. I don't read ANY hatred in this thread.

[gemship]

First, Velomonkey, on the Rapha poseur posse, you rock, the clique'ish side of cycling needs to be dropped and you did just that, laughed hard at that.
To William, thanks for not locking this, this thread is such an anomaly compared to other forums, it never devolved into troll'ish rants or name calling. That is almost unheard of nowadays, hard to find another example of such. It should stand as evidence that it can happen and for others to aspire to.
To move the football and add something, I would like to say that, participants aside, what I learned here from all of this is that when I do start the process of having a bike built, I should not be nonchalant about the details or the relationship. It is partly an emotional experience but at the end of the day it is a business transaction. Remodel the kitchen, have a custom hutch made, you want it done right and on time, a custom frame should be no different.
The choice of builder has narrowed due to this thread, length of career, number of frames made, length of que trumps slick flikr pics and good web page. (a long que is a sign of desireablity, a good thing, but a very long que such as over a year will be seen as a higher risk, more opportunity for things to go wrong, will be weighed into the decision).
Communication will be frequent with the choice made.
Suprisingly there are many builders out there to choose from who appear to be solid, so there isn't a lack of good ones, but the good of this thread reinforces in me that I should go to who I belive IMO is not only good, but the best. In all facets of the business.
Thanks to the OP for starting this thread all who have givenn to it, it wasn't for naught, I got something good out of it.
Screw the heart, go with the head first and then the heart and cultivate the relationship.


Good post, one more thing to add. I think regarding the think with head ignore your heart one should really investigate the finest local builders in one's area. Getting a proper bike fitting is A-1 with documentation that a builder can easily decipher. The thing that sticks with me and yes I read this thread is like Raygunner stated...well he made choices from the heart. He really wanted an IR bike and he lost a lot of time waiting. He didn't care as much about the money looking back on it just the lost time. Even more compelling is that he even made a couple of trips after making that deposit and had face to face visits with IR... so you know I could see how he would expect results agreed upon or at least decent communication explaining why not. So really if one can deal locally in my opinion that is the way to go. Of course this may limit choices, the next best thing is to research a forum like this and really find a builder who posts here regularly or is held in high regard by a number of forumites. The obvious answer would be a DK bike or a KB bike on that note.

[Grant McLean]

Question for the OP: Did you ever explicitly ask for your original 500 dollar deposit back? Because if you didn't, I can somewhat see why Mr. Ryan doesn't seem very concerned in his response.

In my previous life in the retail gig, this was our darkest nightmare scenario.
A disgruntled customer would tell lots of friends about a problem they had,
whether it be with service, product, or experience, but not us they were unsatisfied
with a response.
Sometimes a manager or owner would get a phone call from a second party
who maybe heard something bad through a friend.

We always wanted the chance to ask a simple question, "what would you like us to do?"

It's funny how disarming this really is. When you have a disgruntled person,
often they just want to be angry at you, and there isn't an easy resolution.
Instead of trying to guess what we should do, or have policies about what
to do, our service experience taught us to just ask, then do what the person
wanted. The sad part is, sometimes though poor communication or different
expectations, service providers never get the chance.

What customers usually asked us for to resolve an issue wasn't that much,
and really, like in this example, no customer service problem is ever brought
to a conclusion without the customer ultimately getting what they want.
They can say they're over it, or whatever, but they hang on to that experience
forever unless it's resolved to their satisfaction, that's my 30+ years of retail
experience anyway.

-g

[gemship]

You must be reading this thread with a different filter than me. I don't read ANY hatred in this thread.

Agreed, there are many constructive posts in this thread. Overall this thread is like cheap advice for IR and or anyone to learn from. In fact I see the impact of this thread as a blip on his business radar. Maybe a big blip but certainly not the end of his custom bike making experience. We are a very small group here and to think of the negative consequences is really just blowing all of this out of proportion. This place is unique and a bit of a magnifying glass the really represents a microcosm of the cycling community. Can something be learned by all from this, absolutely. For me personally I feel blessed as I get older to not really care about what I ride so much as the fit, function being right so as to enhance the experience. Form truly follows function. At least for me there are so many great off the shelf bikes that come so very close with fit and features I really don't need or want much more. Blessed to not have to put myself on a waiting list.

[Ira Ryan]

Where to start?

I got wind of the thread Friday am and signed up for an account to post my opinion on the matter and it took a full 24 hours to get activated in which time the thread spiraled into something that makes me sad and angry. There were a few frantic emails to Keith at the Paceline forum to get it resolved and I am now able to defend myself.

At this point, I am happy to pay back Eric Wolforth aka Raygunner the non-refundable part of his deposit if it would mean we can all move forward. His account of what happened between himself and me as a frame-builder is accurate and I stated that in my open letter.

In my letter with Eddie posted in a new thread, thank you btw, my intent was to keep things positive, own my mistakes and move on. I emailed Eric directly as soon as I read the thread and we had a few exchanges which I think resolved some of the issues.

Its really frustrating that at this point Tony Pereira and Breadwinner are being damaged. How I ran my own company was my own business and the issues that I had are my history and I did make mistakes. I own those mistakes.
Breadwinner's goal is to do things the right way and have better communication, better service, better timelines and better bikes. That is not meant as an ad for BWC. Overall we have great, happy customers and they love the bikes we have made for them.

Ira Ryan Cycle's books are closed for orders and I am happy that the transition from one focus to another is done but I am sad I did not handle Eric's order better.

It is a beautiful day in Portland, OR. and I really hope that you go outside where ever you are today and have a great bicycle ride.

[firerescuefin]

Deleted

[velomonkey]

At this point, I am happy to pay back Eric Wolforth aka Raygunner the non-refundable part of his deposit if it would mean we can all move forward. His account of what happened between himself and me as a frame-builder is accurate and I stated that in my open letter.


"At this point" . . . . allow me to be the first - this is the root of the entire issue, Ira. It's not "this point" it's how you did it from the get go.

Oh, and while we are at it: Ira Ryan and Breadwinner are one in the same - any community college business class would have taught you that . . . .

[wooly]

Ira, your response in this thread has a different tone that the open letter that eddie posted for you in the other thread. Your response here sounds like you've owned up to some mistakes made and I think that's important. Hell, we've all made 'em. I made about three mistake already today. I just hope Eric received an apology and offered a refund. Whether he wanted or accepted the refund isn't important.

And, I'd recommend sticking around this forum. In the end, we all love to ride.

[pbarry]

Where to start?

I got wind of the thread Friday am and signed up for an account to post my opinion on the matter and it took a full 24 hours to get activated in which time the thread spiraled into something that makes me sad and angry. There were a few frantic emails to Keith at the Paceline forum to get it resolved and I am now able to defend myself.

At this point, I am happy to pay back Eric Wolforth aka Raygunner the non-refundable part of his deposit if it would mean we can all move forward. His account of what happened between himself and me as a frame-builder is accurate and I stated that in my open letter.

In my letter with Eddie posted in a new thread, thank you btw, my intent was to keep things positive, own my mistakes and move on. I emailed Eric directly as soon as I read the thread and we had a few exchanges which I think resolved some of the issues.

Its really frustrating that at this point Tony Pereira and Breadwinner are being damaged. How I ran my own company was my own business and the issues that I had are my history and I did make mistakes. I own those mistakes.
Breadwinner's goal is to do things the right way and have better communication, better service, better timelines and better bikes. That is not meant as an ad for BWC. Overall we have great, happy customers and they love the bikes we have made for them.

Ira Ryan Cycle's books are closed for orders and I am happy that the transition from one focus to another is done but I am sad I did not handle Eric's order better.

It is a beautiful day in Portland, OR. and I really hope that you go outside where ever you are today and have a great bicycle ride.

Welcome to the forum, Ira. A little birth-by-fire is good for most folks. :)

Your letter through Eddie was appreciated. I don't think you owned up to mis-steps on your part, however. Offering to return the NRF deposit at this point, under duress, is shallow, without a sincere apology. Being "sad" doesn't cut it.

If Breadwinner is being damaged, then that's on you, and how you've handled this: Ray's frame. We all bring our baggage to a relationship. You've used social networking to your advantage, and this is an example of accountability in the same medium.

Yes, we know you aren't taking orders, but I trust you'll deliver the remaining frames in your que in a timely fashion despite your new venture.

This is a teachable moment for all involved, and those of us reading along.

[Peter B]

Welcome to the forum, Ira. A little birth-by-fire is good for most folks. :)

Your letter through Eddie was appreciated. I don't think you owned up to mis-steps on your part, however. Offering to return the NRF deposit at this point, under duress, is shallow, without a sincere apology. Being "sad" doesn't cut it.

If Breadwinner is being damaged, then that's on you, and how you've handled this: Ray's frame. We all bring our baggage to a relationship. You've used social networking to your advantage, and this is an example of accountability in the same medium.

Yes, we know you aren't taking orders, but I trust you'll deliver the remaining frames in your que in a timely fashion despite your new venture.

This is a teachable moment for all involved, and those of us reading along.

Welcome Ira.

We've all made mistakes, as pbarry states. What defines us is how we acknowledge, assimilate and move beyond those mistakes.

This experience is largely played out. The real question is how will this all inform you and your business going forward?

I've personally dealt with Eric and so I know his integrity.

Given your fabrication talent and cycling passion I hope you will reflect on all this and choose to handle future customer relations in a more thoughtful and proactive way.

Social media really does have two faces and the one that others illuminate can certainly bite us.

Hard won lessons can be among the best. 16 pages of forum responses notwithstanding, I wish good luck to you and Tony going forward in your BWC endeavor!

[gavingould]

Wow, some people really hold a serious grudge. Life's too short atmo. And I'm not talking about RayGunner.

Beyond the specifics which appear to be clear and confirmed, some posters here are reading far more into things and extrapolating way beyond reality.

Outside of this particular case, in the bigger picture of custom...
There have been threads asking about how to deal with a builder situation going south and the response is overwhelmingly demanding to out the builder... then suddenly 95% want to tar and feather, and a few jump to defend the builder. If you were the one getting screwed, wouldn't you wish someone had posted about their bad experience? Likewise, if no one ever said how good something was, how you know what's good? Forums like this are a but of Consumer Reports, to me that's important.

We've heard from both sides, draw your own conclusions from what's been said. If you now hate Ira Ryan and by extension Breadwinner, don't buy his bikes. If you think RayGunner's full of it, you're entitled to that, don't buy stuff from him when he's selling.

[pbarry]

[Edited]This experience is largely played out. The real question is how will this all inform you and your business going forward?

Hard won lessons can be among the best. 16 pages of forum responses notwithstanding, I wish good luck to you and Tony going forward in your BWC endeavor!

I do as well. Learn from this. Go forth and prosper.

[velomonkey]

Wow, some people really hold a serious grudge. Life's too short atmo. And I'm not talking about RayGunner.

Beyond the specifics which appear to be clear and confirmed, some posters here are reading far more into things and extrapolating way beyond reality.

Outside of this particular case, in the bigger picture of custom...


We've heard from both sides, draw your own conclusions from what's been said. If you now hate Ira Ryan and by extension Breadwinner, don't buy his bikes. If you think RayGunner's full of it, you're entitled to that, don't buy stuff from him when he's selling.

Ummmmmm . . . . no (just cutting to the chase). Let me repeat . . . no, not even close.


If you want me to name a dozen frame builders that ARE hungry for your business and WILL build you a frame that will make you NO FASTER than any one Ira builds (breadwinner or whatever) than I will be happy to do so (sorry, bro, you caught me on a moment of bourbon & laptop).

These aren't trivial purchases . . . . .