New Steel Bike from LeMond!

[ptourkin]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lemond-public/public/assets/WasoheDi2bike.jpg


Handmade, hand painted and professionally assembled in the USA, Washoe is named after the county on the East slope of the Sierra mountains in which LeMond grew up and began riding. LeMond points out further relevance to the name, “The Washoe tribe were native to that area. The name Washoe means ‘People from here’. That’s where I became a cyclist, and this company has a lot of roots, there.” Each frame is handmade in the USA from Reynolds 853 steel and yields a dedicated butting process per size ensuring that even the smallest and largest frames have the same incredibly smooth, yet laterally stiff, ride qualities that we demand. Once welded, the frame goes through a stringent quality control process before Greg LeMond's logo is added. Instead of the normal process of using decals, each part of this frame and fork is hand painted in the USA. The only decal you will see will be the proud Reynolds 853 logo attached near the bottom of the frame. The attention to detail, pride in manufacturing and passion for creating a beautifully crafted frame that provides a smooth ride that begs to push it harder is the essence that were after with the Washoe.

The Washoe has been carefully engineered employing the frame geometry philosophy that LeMond made famous. “LeMond Geometry” is what Greg arrived at after riding so many custom frames over the years and going back to the drawing board over and over. Fork choice on a bike is paramount. The handling and ride characteristics of a bicycle are greatly altered by it’s fork. LeMond chose the top-of-the-line Enve Carbon Tapered fork. “It completes a bike that our customers will be happy to ride on their most epic rides, regardless of terrain.” LeMond adds, “The Enve fork enhances the way the bike climbs and responds out of the saddle. You quickly realize ‘I can ride this bike anywhere’, and it rewards you for doing exactly that.”

Much of the LeMond philosophy of bicycle design centers around “integrity” and “feel”. That probably comes from years of riding some of the most historic - and sound - steel bikes ever crafted. LeMond tested a lot of equipment, which gave him more of an appreciation for well made bicycles. “I learned early on that integrity, ride characteristics and feel.” Turning pro for the world #1 team Renault-Elf brought that lesson home further.

Steel remains a great choice for high end bicycle production, its production and characteristics have continued to evolve but retain the fabled ride quality no other material can quite match.

The Washoe is available as frame and fork or as a complete bike. LeMond delivers the bike professionally assembled and ready to ride to your home or favorite bike shop in four different build kits: Shimano 105, Ultegra, Ultegra Di2, or Dura Ace Di2.




https://greglemond.com/#!/washoe

[ptourkin]

Can handle 28s.

[eBAUMANN]

pretty cool, I wonder who's makin em!

[macaroon]

it looks strange, the forks look too long.

[thirdgenbird]

The front end does look a touch off, but I still like it. Odd that this has all shimano build options and the carbon bikes are campy heavy.

[mtechnica]

I'm a huge fan of lemond's geometry, the 55 should have a 56.5 top tube if it's like his old frames. Legit. I wonder if it feels much different than my 853 maillot jaune with an ouzo pro fork, probably not.

[marciero]

Can handle 28s.

That was my first question.

Wondering if "Lemond geometry" means slack head tube angle, which I read that he preferred.

[mtechnica]

That was my first question.

Wondering if "Lemond geometry" means slack head tube angle, which I read that he preferred.

Whatever he's doing I can say my lemond is the 2nd most responsive feeling frame I've ridden (next to a cannondale criterium) and it makes my colnago and caad10 feel like a cyclocross bike. It still manages to be stable while responsive. If the new ones are this good I think people will be happy with them although the price is arguably a little high IMO, but having said that I think the older steel ones cost even more iirc.

[ceolwulf]

$2599 with 105 is not a bad deal whatsoever.

[marciero]

“I learned early on that integrity, ride characteristics and feel.”



Well..??? I wonder if the sentence was completed at some point. Or maybe its a typo and he actually learned early on ABOUT integrity, ride characteristics and feel. I am still curious about exactly what he learned and how he applied it to bike design.

[donevwil]

Can handle 28s.

The description reads "The frame and fork accommodate up to 28c tires." For anyone familiar with an Enve 2.0 that's "up to, not including" 28s.

[wallymann]

just like any one of a zillion other TIG'd sloping steel frames. the paint doesnt help...and i love orange...generally it's OK...but there's gotta be more.

heck, i'd rather ride an old poprad or zurich than this new lemond.

[thirdgenbird]

It is amarican made, appears to have a decent build kit, its actual paint work (not decals), and it accommodate both electronic and mechanical systems. I don't know a zillion other steel frames with all of those qualities.

[zennmotion]

Looks great... but wait, what's that down there? There! PF30? NOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[mtechnica]

heck, i'd rather ride an old poprad or zurich than this new lemond.

Meh, I can only assume this new one is better than the old 853 frames besides arguably the sloping top tube, and it's not like the older ones were known for being stylish.

[SlackMan]

The description reads "The frame and fork accommodate up to 28c tires." For anyone familiar with an Enve 2.0 that's "up to, not including" 28s.

Not to go too OT, but I always intepreted it as Enve 2.0s can fit 28s. Does your comment imply they willl not fit true 28s?

[buldogge]

Well…I was just riding my Legend Ti with Enve 2.0 running Ultremo ZX 28s today…seemed like it was really happening… :confused:

-Mark in Whitehall

The description reads "The frame and fork accommodate up to 28c tires." For anyone familiar with an Enve 2.0 that's "up to, not including" 28s.

Not to go too OT, but I always intepreted it as Enve 2.0s can fit 28s. Does your comment imply they willl not fit true 28s?

[donevwil]

Not to go too OT, but I always intepreted it as Enve 2.0s can fit 28s. Does your comment imply they willl not fit true 28s?

Correct, although not every Enve fork is the same (small batch to batch differences I've heard). The three bikes I've assembled with 2.0s had clearance for 25-26mm tires with `2mm to spare before contact. A friend tried a 25mm Conti 4000s and it rubbed. Some small 28s measure more like 26mm so may fit.

[donevwil]

Well…I was just riding my Legend Ti with Enve 2.0 running Ultremo ZX 28s today…seemed like it was really happening… :confused:

-Mark in Whitehall

A tire labeled a 28 and one measuring 28mm wide and/or tall are two different things. I've never measured a 28 Ultremo, but my 28 Conti GP4s measure 27 tall x ~25 wide on 23mm rims and rub in an Enve. As mentioned above a buddy's 25 Conti 4000s measured ~26 tall and rubbed at center nubs on a brand new tire.

Just a couple data points, your results may vary.

[eddief]

got one of the good ones :). Watch out for stuff you read on the net.

[lhuerta]

...its going to be hard to beat a steel frame and Enve fork for $1800. Definitely not the same as his older 853 frames....the top tube and down tube appear highly shaped/tapered, matched with the oversize head tube/tapered fork and the slack seattube angle from his old geo, this might be a nice ride. I have never been a fan of a steel bike w/out lugs, but this one looks interesting.

[lhuerta]

...its going to be hard to beat a steel frame and Enve fork for $1800. Definitely not the same as his older 853 frames....the top tube and down tube appear highly shaped/tapered, matched with the oversize head tube/tapered fork and the slack seattube angle from his old geo, this might be a nice ride. I have never been a fan of a steel bike w/out lugs, but this one looks interesting.

wait, there is more. If you act now you will also get...


Just checked out the specs more closely, for $1799 you get a full frame & fork kit including Cane Creek headset, 3T stem/bar/seatpost. Seems like a great deal.

[Peter P.]

Like a Michael Jordan come back.

Sadly, when Trek dropped the LeMond brand they effectively ended Greg's foothold in the market. He'll never recover the brand awareness he had back then.

He won't be able to resurrect sufficient interest in the brand, especially with a steel frame; the market is just not there to support the numbers. Steel is best left to the custom market. And there's little to differentiate his carbon offerings. Time to sail into the sunset, Greg.

Also, his current physical image doesn't do well in lending credibility to his expertise.

I'm not impressed.

[parco]

There are no lugs. I didn't think you could TIG weld 853 tubing.:confused:

[PaMtbRider]

There are no lugs. I didn't think you could TIG weld 853 tubing.:confused:

Yep, you can TIG 853. Many examples of it being done.

[saab2000]

There are no lugs. I didn't think you could TIG weld 853 tubing.:confused:

I think 853 was made specifically for welding. My favorite steel frames are welded, except my Zanconato, which is lugged. Nothing to fear with welded steel and much to enjoy. Looks like a nice bike.

[thirdgenbird]

I think 853 was made specifically for welding. My favorite steel frames are welded, except my Zanconato, which is lugged. Nothing to fear with welded steel and much to enjoy. Looks like a nice bike.

That was my understanding. I thought it was made for tig applications.

[c-record]

There are no lugs. I didn't think you could TIG weld 853 tubing.:confused:

You may be thinking of 953?

[buldogge]

Nope…Ultremos ain't no Contis…measure 28mm+ width…not positive on the height measurement though, to be honest.

-Mark

A tire labeled a 28 and one measuring 28mm wide and/or tall are two different things. I've never measured a 28 Ultremo, but my 28 Conti GP4s measure 27 tall x ~25 wide on 23mm rims and rub in an Enve. As mentioned above a buddy's 25 Conti 4000s measured ~26 tall and rubbed at center nubs on a brand new tire.

Just a couple data points, your results may vary.

[druptight]

Not a fan of that huge fat headtube. Otherwise, sounds like a very good deal.

[Johnny Alien]

1. This is a nice looking frame and I am always happy to see more new choices in steel.

2. I will never warm up to those 4 arm Shimano cranks.

[William]

I'd ride that in a heartbeat.

Good on him for making a go of it now that the shadow is out of the picture.:)





William

[Wakatel_Luum]

Like a Michael Jordan come back.



Sadly, when Trek dropped the LeMond brand they effectively ended Greg's foothold in the market. He'll never recover the brand awareness he had back then.



He won't be able to resurrect sufficient interest in the brand, especially with a steel frame; the market is just not there to support the numbers. Steel is best left to the custom market. And there's little to differentiate his carbon offerings. Time to sail into the sunset, Greg.



Also, his current physical image doesn't do well in lending credibility to his expertise.



I'm not impressed.


I don't think Greg ever had much of a foothold on the market, the impression I get is he's producing limited numbers with quite modest expectations...regardless, his popularity seems to be growing again so I'm not sure where you're coming from...

Also to inform you, unfortunately he's unable to increase his exercise regime as it increases the rate of lead poisoning in his body...hopefully his credibility won't suffer too much...

I for one am quite glad to see him back in the limelight...I'm impressed...

[stephenmarklay]

I think its a good looking bike and I would be happy to pedal it.

[Grant McLean]

Also, his current physical image doesn't do well in lending credibility to his expertise.



Ouch. I guess the image of an overweight Eddy Merckx at 50 hurt his cred too?

-g

http://img.vandaag.be/tmp/450/350/r/articles/200906102105_eddy-merckx-kan-boonen-niet-vergeven.jpg

[bcroslin]

Like a Michael Jordan come back.

Sadly, when Trek dropped the LeMond brand they effectively ended Greg's foothold in the market. He'll never recover the brand awareness he had back then.

He won't be able to resurrect sufficient interest in the brand, especially with a steel frame; the market is just not there to support the numbers. Steel is best left to the custom market. And there's little to differentiate his carbon offerings. Time to sail into the sunset, Greg.

Also, his current physical image doesn't do well in lending credibility to his expertise.

I'm not impressed.

Haters got to hate. I don't care if he's a big fat bastard, I'd ride a carbon Lemond/ Look in a heartbeat.

[FlashUNC]

Haters got to hate. I don't care if he's a big fat bastard, I'd ride a carbon Lemond/ Look in a heartbeat.

Time, actually.

[Chris]

Ouch. I guess the image of an overweight Eddy Merckx at 50 hurt his cred too?

-g

http://img.vandaag.be/tmp/450/350/r/articles/200906102105_eddy-merckx-kan-boonen-niet-vergeven.jpg

I did one of the first Ride for the Roses and ended up riding next to Greg near the back of the front group of 100 or so riders. He was not at his fighting weight then either. We talked briefly about how he had been traveling and doing a lot of fishing. He said he got his bike from a local dealer and hadn't ridden in a couple of months. At the end of our brief conversation, he said that he was going to get back to the front. The ride was fast so I am sure we were going 23-25 probably. He took off and rode up the right side of the road on a sliver of space left by the group. He was at the front in no time and I was left at the back impressed at how adeptly he moved to the front and how strong he was. You don't see too many old pros who look anything like they did during their pro career. Lead poisoning or not.

[josephr]

I'd ride that in a heartbeat.

Good on him for making a go of it now that the shadow is out of the picture.:)


William

+1 - looks like a pretty nice bike and sure it rides nice too. I like the colorways on his carbon bikes -- taking back the black and yellow!
Joe

[seppa]

It looks alright, not a head turner for me though. Love to see builds done in steel, I still haven't had a chance to ride modern steel and as long as some people are still doing some at least I just may get the chance some day!

It still sort of puts me off that all these steel frames are still using headset cups like that... it must be possible to do an integrated headset in a road frame. I'm seeing steel bmx bikes moving to integrated cups!

[Mark McM]

I think 853 was made specifically for welding.

That's correct. The alloy in 853 is air hardening, so it retains its strength after tig welding (unlike Reynolds earlier heat treated tubes, like 753).

[donevwil]

Nope…Ultremos ain't no Contis…measure 28mm+ width…not positive on the height measurement though, to be honest.

-Mark

Yah, the height is where I contact the fork first at 26-27mm. An Enve has huge width clearance. A 28 Grand Bois wasn't close to fitting on my 2.0 and it measured a true 28 tall.

[witcombusa]

just like any one of a zillion other TIG'd sloping steel frames. the paint doesnt help...and i love orange...generally it's OK...but there's gotta be more.

heck, i'd rather ride an old poprad or zurich than this new lemond.

This ^

I wouldn't even go as far as "generally OK"


full PASS

[bcroslin]

Time, actually.

Even better. I don't get the undercurrent of Lemond hate around here. I get that he can be a prick and he has an ego but that's describing 99% of professional athletes. From the reaction Lemond gets around here you would think he's been kicking folks mothers in the knees.

[Elefantino]

Even better. I don't get the undercurrent of Lemond hate around here. I get that he can be a prick and he has an ego but that's describing 99% of professional athletes. From the reaction Lemond gets around here you would think he's been kicking folks' hero in the ball.
Fixed it for you.

[beeatnik]

Considering the price of the fork, headset and oversized HT/BB, the true price of the american-made, hi-grade steel frame is under $1000. What's not to like?

[Mr. Pink]

I did one of the first Ride for the Roses and ended up riding next to Greg near the back of the front group of 100 or so riders. He was not at his fighting weight then either. We talked briefly about how he had been traveling and doing a lot of fishing. He said he got his bike from a local dealer and hadn't ridden in a couple of months. At the end of our brief conversation, he said that he was going to get back to the front. The ride was fast so I am sure we were going 23-25 probably. He took off and rode up the right side of the road on a sliver of space left by the group. He was at the front in no time and I was left at the back impressed at how adeptly he moved to the front and how strong he was. You don't see too many old pros who look anything like they did during their pro career. Lead poisoning or not.

Yeah, I rode a little with him a few years ago in Frederick, Maryland. At the end of 70 miles, he was just toying with people like a little kid, and circling back. Very impressed with the man watching him that weekend, and I had no real pre-conceived notion about him before hand. Very nice guy, always smiling and signing and having fun. A bit porky, but, hey, I should talk.

I disagree that steel won't have a market out there, especially at that pretty awesome price point of three grand for an Ultegra version. I'll bet there's a lot of people riding plastic bikes after they've been around for a while regretting the purchase as cracks and other wear happens.

[FlashUNC]

Even better. I don't get the undercurrent of Lemond hate around here. I get that he can be a prick and he has an ego but that's describing 99% of professional athletes. From the reaction Lemond gets around here you would think he's been kicking folks mothers in the knees.

Kind of funny watching the conversation evolve since he started putting his name back on bikes 8-10 months ago.

First it was "Well, Greg's not associated with bikes, so I'm not interested."

Then, after the Time deal was announced, it became "Well, they're carbon, and I don't like carbon. Where's my awesome LeMond steel frames?"

Now, with a really competitively priced steel frame in his preferred geo, its "Well, that's not the kind of steel bike I like."

For that price, I hope he sells more than a few.

[soulspinner]

Considering the price of the fork, headset and oversized HT/BB, the true price of the american-made, hi-grade steel frame is under $1000. What's not to like?

And big ht and PF 30 screams race me and train on me without breaking the bank..........

[ptourkin]

-

[ptourkin]

Kind of funny watching the conversation evolve since he started putting his name back on bikes 8-10 months ago.

First it was "Well, Greg's not associated with bikes, so I'm not interested."

Then, after the Time deal was announced, it became "Well, they're carbon, and I don't like carbon. Where's my awesome LeMond steel frames?"

Now, with a really competitively priced steel frame in his preferred geo, its "Well, that's not the kind of steel bike I like."

For that price, I hope he sells more than a few.

The retro-grumpiness of this group shouldn't come as a surprise. I know sloping top tubes have been argued exhaustively here but I don't see any evidence that older geometry is going to make a comeback. My ti Victoire has a more classic appearance with Greg's unconventional geometry but it causes fit issues. I'd rather have something that works.

BTW, if you click on build your own, you'll see that a Campy option will be offered.
__________________

[oldpotatoe]

...its going to be hard to beat a steel frame and Enve fork for $1800. Definitely not the same as his older 853 frames....the top tube and down tube appear highly shaped/tapered, matched with the oversize head tube/tapered fork and the slack seattube angle from his old geo, this might be a nice ride. I have never been a fan of a steel bike w/out lugs, but this one looks interesting.

Waterford, custom, pick your color, $1400, add fork....not saying the Lemond isn't nice, I like it but $1800 for a US made frame/fork isn't that unusual.

And Waterford/Gunnar, threaded BB.

[beeatnik]

Waterford, custom, pick your color, $1400, add fork....not saying the Lemond isn't nice, I like it but $1800 for a US made frame/fork isn't that unusual.

And Waterford/Gunnar, threaded BB.

Or you can get a Waterford that says LeMond on the DT :banana:

[Keith A]

Glad to see him back in the bike business, especially since his isn't just slapping his name on an Asian made carbon frame. Not that there is anything wrong with an Asian made carbon frame, but he went a different route and I hope he succeeds. Not too many companies out there that start out (or restart) with a race worthy steel bike in their lineup. Yes, I know there are plenty of custom builders that do start with steel...but this is a bit different.

Just not excited about the BB.

[Buzz Killington]

No down tube water bottle bosses and invisible rear derailleur cable? Cool! Could be my screen............? Seriously, looks like nice bike. I assume made by Waterford? I think Washoe is Chuck Norris' indian name.

[Keith A]

No down tube water bottle bosses and invisible rear derailleur cable? Cool! Could be my screen............? Sreriously, looks like nice bike. I assume made by Waterford?The bosses are there...

[FlashUNC]

Glad to see him back in the bike business, especially since his isn't just slapping his name on an Asian made carbon frame. Not that there is anything wrong with an Asian made carbon frame, but he went a different route and I hope he succeeds. Not too many companies out there that start out (or restart) with a race worthy steel bike in their lineup. Yes, I know there are plenty of custom builders that do start with steel...but this is a bit different.

Just not excited about the BB.

Definitely not. He's slapping his name on some French made carbon bikes instead.

[Mark McM]

No down tube water bottle bosses and invisible rear derailleur cable?

I think that first photo was photoshop-ed. The other photos clearly show the down tube water bottle bosses and rear derailleur cable - as well as cable stops on the head tube. Also, if you look at the spaces between the crank spider on the first photo, the frame tubes behind the crank don't line up with the rest of the tubes.

[Keith A]

Definitely not. He's slapping his name on some French made carbon bikes instead.Yep, you are correct...but at least there was a connection/history between him and Time.

[Mark McM]

Definitely not. He's slapping his name on some French made carbon bikes instead.

Lemond is very up front about these frames being made by Time. He also says that they different from any Time models:

Only 300 total (100 of each year) will be produced. Greg and Jean-Marc made these unique from any other TIME frame by adding aero seatstays to improve aerodynamics and custom chainstays that offers more vertical compliance for long efforts in the saddle.

(Of course, the quote is just bloviating, since the seatstays play a much larger role in vertical compliance than the chainstays.)

[FlashUNC]

Yep, you are correct...but at least there was a connection/history between him and Time.

Lemond is very up front about these frames being made by Time. He also says that they different from any Time models:



Agreed on both counts. When I get the itch for a carbon bike again, it'll either be a Time or a Lemond-branded Time frame. I love the history and the relationship, and they are amazing bikes.

[Ralph]

Nice Bike!

[Elefantino]

I'd rather have back the '01 Zurich I sold. One of many bike mistakes.

[witcombusa]

Considering the price of the fork, headset and oversized HT/BB, the true price of the american-made, hi-grade steel frame is under $1000. What's not to like?

Since you asked...
The fork, oversized HT/BB and utilitarian tig welded frame.
In fact, there is nothing for me to like.

[foon]

I'd rather have back the '01 Zurich I sold. One of many bike mistakes.

Picked up a '02 853 poprad recently. Seriously sweet ride.

Now I want a zurich. The new one looks like a pretty nice deal too if it would ride similar.

[beeatnik]

Since you asked...
The fork, oversized HT/BB and utilitarian tig welded frame.
In fact, there is nothing for me to like.


Ah, I meant to qualify my comment.

"What's not to like for anyone who would buy a bike designed after 1990."

"What's not to like for anyone who drives a car with A/C."

"What's not to like for 22 year olds who earn 9.50/hour and don't have time to piece together a bike with DT shifters and a 5s freewheel but would like to race against their 25-year-old friends who ride $7000 carbon race bikes."

That kind of thing

[witcombusa]

Ah, I meant to qualify my comment.

"What's not to like for anyone who would buy a bike designed after 1990."

"What's not to like for anyone who drives a car with A/C."

"What's not to like for 22 year olds who earn 9.50/hour and don't have time to piece together a bike with DT shifters and a 5s freewheel but would like to race against their 25-year-old friends who ride $7000 carbon race bikes."

That kind of thing

Well then I still qualify on 2 of the 3 points.
Still nothing for me to like here.

[Charles M]

Set an egg timer... See how long this deal lasts.

[Keith A]

Set an egg timer... See how long this deal lasts.So you think this is just an "introductory offer"?

[cash05458]

"I'd rather have back the '01 Zurich I sold."

Yeah, they are good frames...I love mine...and even with some other "better" bikes in stable I still ride my '99 zurich alot...

[sante pollastri]

Ah, I meant to qualify my comment.

"What's not to like for anyone who would buy a bike designed after 1990."

"What's not to like for anyone who drives a car with A/C."

"What's not to like for 22 year olds who earn 9.50/hour and don't have time to piece together a bike with DT shifters and a 5s freewheel but would like to race against their 25-year-old friends who ride $7000 carbon race bikes."

That kind of thing

time wasted....

[velotrack]

Well then I still qualify on 2 of the 3 points.
Still nothing for me to like here.

Nothing really to get - it's a great deal for a steel bike if you don't mind or like the look of oversized HT's and don't mind a PF30.

I like it.

[TBDSeattle]

it looks strange, the forks look too long.

naw, that is not it... it looks weird because the top tube is not level. :)

[TBDSeattle]

I'd ride that in a heartbeat.

Good on him for making a go of it now that the shadow is out of the picture.:)

William

+1 to what William said.

[TBDSeattle]

Well then I still qualify on 2 of the 3 points.
Still nothing for me to like here.

?? Why bother following this thread, or adding this comment?

Are you going to reply to every ad on the classified saying "I will not buy this?"

Silly.

I'd love to try one of these bikes. The earlier LeMond bikes that I had a chance to try were good machines.

[witcombusa]

?? Why bother following this thread, or adding this comment?
Are you going to reply to every ad on the classified saying "I will not buy this?"

Silly.

I'd love to try one of these bikes. The earlier LeMond bikes that I had a chance to try were good machines.


New Steel Bike from LeMond!
This is the thread, right?
Sounds to me like they want to know what people think of it. So in your world only folks that like something can tell us why they do?

[palincss]

naw, that is not it... it looks weird because the top tube is not level. :)

and because the line of the fork isn't parallel to the line of the head tube. Unless you've grown up thinking things like that are "normal," it looks weird and wrong from almost every angle.

[stephenmarklay]

and because the line of the fork isn't parallel to the line of the head tube. Unless you've grown up thinking things like that are "normal," it looks weird and wrong from almost every angle.

You must expand your horizons my son. Change is ok do not be afraid ;)

[happycampyer]

Does anyone have any idea who is building the frames? Given how many mouths need to be fed in order to get these out the door at $1,800, the builder has to be making them for what, $1K? What builder in the US can manage that?

[stephenmarklay]

I like the colors combo a lot. I am vain I guess.

[greengage]

I have no experience with the Lemonds of yore, but it looks like a solid deal to me. Is PF30 really that bad?

[Keith A]

I have no experience with the Lemonds of yore, but it looks like a solid deal to me. Is PF30 really that bad?Here's a lengthy discussion on Weight Weenies about PF30 BB issues...
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=93006

According to a mechanic friend, the issues he has seen are creaking and the plastic sleeve breaking.

[DRZRM]

I have no experience with the Lemonds of yore, but it looks like a solid deal to me. Is PF30 really that bad?

I don't think that PF-30 is "so bad." I think the Campy cups for PF-30 are pretty bad, they are much too shallow to properly seat and thus have a tendency to creak. Most folks who install with the recommended loctite seem to not have problems, and the deeper seated cups (like the Parlee cups, which I am using) also seem to have fewer complaints. For Shimano and SRAM, the Praxis PF-30 BB is supposed to resolve creaking. I loctited in the Parlee cups on my Firefly and have had no creaking at all. Obviously the frame is ti, not carbon, which may also help minimize creaking (not my argument, just something I read in one of these threads as I was deciding whether or not to buy the frame with the PF-30 BB). If metal has a benefit over carbon, than I assume the steel BB would also benefit. I'm a big guy (220+, 6'3") and I've had no trouble at all with my PF-30 BB. Obviously, your results may vary.

To the original point of the thread, I think this is a pretty good looking modern steel bike. I hope GL does well by this deal. He was so screwed by Armstrong/Trek. It's nice to see his image recover recently, I hope that translates into bike sales. I also wonder who is making there frames for him.

[bobswire]

I don't think that PF-30 is "so bad." I think the Campy cups for PF-30 are pretty bad, they are much too shallow to properly seat and thus have a tendency to creak. Most folks who install with the recommended loctite seem to not have problems, and the deeper seated cups (like the Parlee cups, which I am using) also seem to have fewer complaints. For Shimano and SRAM, the Praxis PF-30 BB is supposed to resolve creaking. I loctited in the Parlee cups on my Firefly and have had no creaking at all. Obviously the frame is ti, not carbon, which may also help minimize creaking (not my argument, just something I read in one of these threads as I was deciding whether or not to buy the frame with the PF-30 BB). If metal has a benefit over carbon, than I assume the steel BB would also benefit. I'm a big guy (220+, 6'3") and I've had no trouble at all with my PF-30 BB. Obviously, your results may vary.

To the original point of the thread, I think this is a pretty good looking modern steel bike. I hope GL does well by this deal. He was so screwed by Armstrong/Trek. It's nice to see his image recover recently, I hope that translates into bike sales. I also wonder who is making there frames for him.

One rumor I heard. Zen Bicycle Fabrication
http://www.zenbicyclefabrication.com/zenbicyclefabrication.html

[TBDSeattle]

This ^
I wouldn't even go as far as "generally OK"
full PASS

Since you asked...
The fork, oversized HT/BB and utilitarian tig welded frame.
In fact, there is nothing for me to like.

Well then I still qualify on 2 of the 3 points.
Still nothing for me to like here.


New Steel Bike from LeMond!
This is the thread, right?
Sounds to me like they want to know what people think of it. So in your world only folks that like something can tell us why they do?

Naw... in my world you only need to tell me once that you pass and why... You're making a real contribution here:rolleyes:

I'll borrow a phrase... I'm talking a "full PASS" on any more discussion on this point.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Why is taking the time to have each size built with its own tubeset butted for size-specific performance, and then slap the same damn fork rake on everything?! For those of us riding small bikes (and probably for folks at the top of the size spectrum, too), the result is wonky trail numbers, which will show in the handling.

I guess I would have expected more.

Edit: I see he's using a tapered Enve fork, which only comes in 43. Disappointing to think he chose his parts first, then built the bike around those choices. I calculate the trail on his size 49 to be 65mm. That's a long cry from where most builders shoot for.

[crankles]

I'm riding an enve 1.0 (same clearance as 2.0) with Hutchinson Sector 28s. Room to spare. The description reads "The frame and fork accommodate up to 28c tires." For anyone familiar with an Enve 2.0 that's "up to, not including" 28s.

[hampco]

I'm hearing Zen Fabrication for the build - and the pricing makes sense if that's the case.

And I'm using a PF30 BB on two steel frame, with zero problems, ymmv.

Rumor has it that Enve is coming out with a 50mm rake tapered fork, fingers crossed here.

I think it's great that Lemond is doing a steel frame, hope he does a lugged version for the old-timers. Haters gotta hate, of course, but I wish him nothing but the best on this project.

[donevwil]

I'm riding an enve 1.0 (same clearance as 2.0) with Hutchinson Sector 28s. Room to spare.

And your Sectors measure a true 28mm tall ? I was unaware there was that much variation fork to fork.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Rumor has it that Enve is coming out with a 50mm rake tapered fork, fingers crossed here.

This would make me very happy, and would make Lemond's 49cm just about perfect. It's a very thoughtfully designed (and snazzy looking) bike, right up to the fork rake/trail choices.

[palincss]

You must expand your horizons my son. Change is ok do not be afraid ;)

I'm not afraid of change, but ugly is ugly and nothing is going to change that.

[greengage]

I'm not afraid of change, but ugly is ugly and nothing is going to change that.


I dunno, I've met some amazing beers that make ugly look pretty good in just about no time at all.
Of course, the morning rides are a different story.

[dpk501]

I'm psyched to own a Lemond again but the logo design bothers me.

Yes I know I won't see it when I'm riding...

[ultraman6970]

Lemond? steel?? like that?? not even if i had the dough I would go for that bike. Had the money I would try to locate one of the old ones, those were nice.

[Charles M]

Set an egg timer... See how long this deal lasts.

So you think this is just an "introductory offer"?

I'll just be surprised if it works out. But then again these are very inexpensive to make, there's really nothing innovative or new here (low risk) and on a small scale basis with a small builder, maybe that's the ticket to success.

[Wakatel_Luum]

The way I see it is Lemond is heading towards what he used to offer...a steel bike, Ti bike and a carbon...I presume the Ti is still to come?

I think it will work out as long as production doesn't go over the top and it's kept small...

Innovative, duh..well you can only go so far with steel...

[Hawker]

Nice looking and I hope it does well for him. Unfortunately for this short guy the Lemond sizing, specifically the TT is too long. A 47cm would work but I'm not holding my breath.

[stephenmarklay]

I'm not afraid of change, but ugly is ugly and nothing is going to change that.

Funny I like it. I like ugly!

[stephenmarklay]

Nice looking and I hope it does well for him. Unfortunately for this short guy the Lemond sizing, specifically the TT is too long. A 47cm would work but I'm not holding my breath.

I do think offering few more sizes would be better. I would rather do a nice fillet brazed bike but hey its just talk anyway.

[Wakatel_Luum]

I'm not afraid of change, but ugly is ugly and nothing is going to change that.


Post a pic of yourself palincss...then we'll decide what's ugly... ;)

[palincss]

We're talking about bikes, not me, Wakatel.

[Johnny Alien]

I'll just be surprised if it works out. But then again these are very inexpensive to make, there's really nothing innovative or new here (low risk) and on a small scale basis with a small builder, maybe that's the ticket to success.

I am not sure I would say a hand made in the US steel frame is inexpensive to make by any means. Of course at $1800 for the frame and fork there certainly isn't a lack of steel options available. Many of which would be lugged which I personally vastly prefer on a steel frame.

Still I always like the concept of making a steel road frame a viable option in a sea of aluminum and carbon.

[classtimesailer]

Race Bike
Orange
I like LeMond

If I had 1800 bucks, I'd move some parts onto one.

It is the updated Maillot Jaune.

[rwsaunders]

I'm hearing Zen Fabrication for the build - and the pricing makes sense if that's the case.


Zen is the shop...http://zenbicyclefabrication.com/What_were_up_to.html

[charliedid]

i'm hearing zen fabrication for the build - and the pricing makes sense if that's the case.

And i'm using a pf30 bb on two steel frame, with zero problems, ymmv.

Rumor has it that enve is coming out with a 50mm rake tapered fork, fingers crossed here.

I think it's great that lemond is doing a steel frame, hope he does a lugged version for the old-timers. Haters gotta hate, of course, but i wish him nothing but the best on this project.

+1

[DfCas]

I like that the new ones are not associated with Trek. I have a Poprad but honestly I'd prefer it to be not Trek derived.

[Charles M]

I am not sure I would say a hand made in the US steel frame is inexpensive to make by any means. Of course at $1800 for the frame and fork there certainly isn't a lack of steel options available. Many of which would be lugged which I personally vastly prefer on a steel frame.

Still I always like the concept of making a steel road frame a viable option in a sea of aluminum and carbon.



Relative to the other things tried, this is a cheap entry and modular... There's no development needed beyond paint. If orders are few, fine, if orders are many, they'll expend or farm it out which is also fine.

And it's a small place versus large professional companies like Trek and Time (or a large far eastern manufacturer). The "design" phase is virtually non existent for this project and there are no molds / set up / risk associated versus the expense of preping something only to have it blow up for what ever reason.


Nobody has to come up with 6 figures to jump start something like this... The prep could be done on a napkin and the deal sealed with a hand shake.

[ultraman6970]

Anybody looked at the geometry? the 53 as a front tube of 14.5 or something, are they trying to compete with specialized 6 feet long front tubes bikes they sell or something?

I dont see this bike being sold at all.

[pbarry]

Relative to the other things tried, this is a cheap entry and modular... There's no development needed beyond paint. If orders are few, fine, if orders are many, they'll expend or farm it out which is also fine.

And it's a small place versus [Edit: changes to CharlesM's original post are in bold, following]: larger manufacturers like Trek and Time (or a large far eastern manufacturer). The "design" phase is virtually non existent for this project and there are no molds / set up / risk associated versus the expense of preping something only to have it blow up for what ever reason.


Nobody has to come up with 6 figures to jump start something like this... The prep could be done on a napkin and the deal sealed with a hand shake.

Fixed it for ya. Rarely do you comment on such pedestrian fare. Just wondering: How is your bread buttered?

[Charles M]

I wrote what I meant to write... Not big deal but I'm not a huge fan of changing peoples words and presenting them as a quote.

I have a couple of loaves. Toppings come from different things :)

[pbarry]

I wrote what I meant to write... Not big deal but I'm not a huge fan of changing peoples words and presenting them as a quote.

I have a couple of loaves. Toppings come from different things :)

I did not do this, the BOLD is a clue. I'll add quotes and italics... Good to know your true nature. Thanks for the insight.:cool:

[93legendti]

I don't like the changing of someone's quote. Isn't is easier and better form to quote the language and then note that you prefer "large manufacturers" to "large professional companies"?

[pbarry]

I don't like the changing of someone's quote. Isn't is easier and better form to quote the language and then note that you prefer "large manufacturers" to "large professional companies"?

OK, I'll try to please you ALSO as well... My post edit was in BOLD.. This practice has been commonplace here, but I will make any edits more clear in the future.

[Charles M]

It's not a huge deal.

certainly not a big enough deal for me to in-turn judge your "nature" by a single turn of phrase...

[pbarry]

Whatever, bud. You took offense, and, you know the decorum here, so I'm calling you on this. [Enjoying your deflection from my direct question.]

[Charles M]

I'm not offended.

And I'm not sure what you're calling me on?

[pbarry]

Again, deflecting...

Where's your logo on the Paceline masthead? Are you a pseudo-journalist, a dilettante, or provocateur?

[Charles M]

I'm obviously no match for your mental horse power so let's break this down further.

What is it that you're "calling" me on and what specifically are you asking?

[Keith A]

Ok guys, let's get back to the original topic.

[pbarry]

I'm obviously no match for your mental horse power so let's break this down further.

What is it that you're "calling" me on and what specifically are you asking?

You questioned my veracity. Need I say more?

Ok guys, let's get back to the original topic.

With you. Thanks.

[Elefantino]

Right now only available with Shimano?!?!?!?!

Aaargh!!!

Everyone knows Campagnolo is better.















(Keith: Is that what you meant about back on topic? :))

[alioup]

Di2 or mechanical?
Clincher or tubular?

[Charles M]

Right now only available with Shimano?!?!?!?!

Aaargh!!!

Everyone knows Campagnolo is better.




I question your veracity!

[Elefantino]

I question your veracity!
My veracity is usually fast enough to keep me in modest pacelines.

[cinema]

My veracity is usually fast enough to keep me in modest pacelines.

Not sure if serious...
:confused::bike:

[Tommasini53]

"A 57cm frame weighed in at 1535 grams without paint, 1705 grams with paint and 16.18 pounds built up with the Dura Ace Di2 kit and Hed Stinger 3 wheel option." website

I'm not familiar with 853 tubesets. Does the above weight estimate sound close to accurate???

I wish GL luck on his new adventure, I enjoyed his Eurosport shows during the TDF. Hope to see more of his race analysis in the media.

[Charles M]

Yeah, could be. (weight). It depends on how aggressive the butting is (among other things). They may also be using a different tube here or there withing the build.




Part of the reason I'm hoping this works, but not overly confident, is something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet.


The Lemond deal with Time is, from what I understand, dead... It was over fairly quickly actually.

[Elefantino]

The Lemond deal with Time is, from what I understand, dead... It was over fairly quickly actually.
I always thought that the GL deal with Time included buying the US company, Time USA. Was that wrong?

[JonSnow]

I saw the bike in person yesterday. Looks great!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RedRider]

I always thought that the GL deal with Time included buying the US company, Time USA. Was that wrong?

The Time / LeMond deal died very quickly shortly after Peloton (Greg's company) took over. Time-USA is back on its own and Greg/Peloton have been selling the Limited Edition bikes on their own.

[palincss]

Yeah, could be. (weight). It depends on how aggressive the butting is (among other things). They may also be using a different tube here or there withing the build.


I do not understand. What is "aggressive" butting?

[Charles M]

Butting happens a couple ways. Among them, the tubes can come delivered with stock butting (thicker walls at the ends and thin toward the middle. Tube suppliers generally let the fame makers know where the butting is so the builders don't cut too much on one end or the other leaving not enough meat at the ends/welds).

Another way is for the builder take material off the tubes internally and externally (at their shop) making the tubes even thinner than spec in the middle and or extending the thin part further toward the ends.

All of this is pulling mass off the tubes and some folks take more than others.

[mtechnica]

fwiw my 55cm 2002 maillot jaune weighed 1795g, made of 853 'pro team'

[93legendti]

The Time / LeMond deal died very quickly shortly after Peloton (Greg's company) took over. Time-USA is back on its own and Greg/Peloton have been selling the Limited Edition bikes on their own.

Any reason given for the deal dying?

[Mark McM]

Another way is for the builder take material off the tubes internally and externally (at their shop) making the tubes even thinner than spec in the middle and or extending the thin part further toward the ends.

Do many builders actually do this? The walls are already very thin (standard 853 is 0.4mm in the center section), so it would take some very precise equipment to shave a fraction of a fraction of a millimeter off uniformly. it isn't as simple as turning it in a lathe, since with these precisions you also have to compensate for any slight tube non-concentricity.

[RedRider]

Any reason given for the deal dying?

There have been stories but there's no reason to spread rumors or speculation. The good thing is that both parties are continuing to do business... separately.

[93legendti]

I only want to know the facts, not interested in rumors...

[Scooper]

I'd really like to see a stainless steel option substituting KVA MS3 or Reynolds 931 (in lieu of 853) for a reasonable upcharge.

Custom geometry for an extra $300 or $400 like Gunnar offers would also be nice.

[rwsaunders]

I only want to know the facts, not interested in rumors...

Contrary to William Randolph Hearst's quote of... "Never mind the facts, just give me the details."

[Charles M]

Do many builders actually do this? The walls are already very thin (standard 853 is 0.4mm in the center section), so it would take some very precise equipment to shave a fraction of a fraction of a millimeter off uniformly. it isn't as simple as turning it in a lathe, since with these precisions you also have to compensate for any slight tube non-concentricity.


Yes, they do. And it can be as simple as turning it in a Lathe.


Again, there are several ways, from more manual and simple versions

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/lynskey/lynmil1.jpg

That can be monitored with pretty simple measuring...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/lynskey/lynmil2.jpg

To purpose built swaging butting / forming units from guys like Glyne (http://www.glyne.com/) that do funky things to both shape and wall thickness...

http://www.glyne.com/images/home/home_photo.jpg


Some of this is more typically done to stock blanks, but the guys that can play it by hand can do this to almost anything. And it's not generally done to the thinnest part of the tube... There's more meat and more change to be had at the thicker parts.

[Charles M]

Do many builders actually do this? The walls are already very thin (standard 853 is 0.4mm in the center section), so it would take some very precise equipment to shave a fraction of a fraction of a millimeter off uniformly. it isn't as simple as turning it in a lathe, since with these precisions you also have to compensate for any slight tube non-concentricity.


Yes, they do. And it can be as simple as turning it in a Lathe.


Again, there are several ways, from more manual and simple versions

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/lynskey/lynmil1.jpg

That can be monitored with pretty simple measuring...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/lynskey/lynmil2.jpg

To purpose built swaging butting / forming units from guys like Glyne (http://www.glyne.com/) that do funky things to both shape and wall thickness...

http://www.glyne.com/images/home/home_photo.jpg


Some of this is more typically done to stock blanks, but the guys that can play it by hand can do this to almost anything. And it's not generally done to the thinnest part of the tube... There's more meat and more change to be had at the thicker parts.

[Keith A]

Looks like it won't be just in orange...this is from Lemond's Facebook post...

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10419414_10152462724208494_371063082753578052_n.jp g?oh=d08228c6c8ca5c7740af1029327fddc8&oe=54B5D85D

[velvig]

Sharp. Now just make the logo on the down tube smaller.

[Hawker]

Indeed, those are some nice color shades. It would be hard to choose, but given Greg's propensity to long TT's I won't have to worry.

[pbarry]

Indeed, those are some nice color shades. It would be hard to choose, but given Greg's propensity to long TT's I would have to worry.

If your femurs aren't long enuf, then you should look elsewhere; but you knew that already. ;)

[Hawker]

If your femurs aren't long enuf, then you should look elsewhere; but you knew that already. ;)

I'm 5'5" on a good day...ain't nothing long enough.

[Wakatel_Luum]

I'm 5'10" with long femurs and upper body...LeMond geometry suits me to a tee...

[mtechnica]

Lemond 55 = made for my body

[Wakatel_Luum]

I would have been happy with one of these...http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/26/322a0beb83339a86356de6182c63d432.jpg

[eddief]

https://greglemond.com/#!/en/bb?m=105&s=55cm

Off the rack frameset at $2300 seems a bit dear to me.

[oldpotatoe]

https://greglemond.com/#!/en/bb?m=105&s=55cm

Off the rack frameset at $2300 seems a bit dear to me.

I donno, headset is $100+ and fork is $350-ish? $1800 for a 853 frame isn't bad. A WAterford true temper platinum OS is $2200, frame only.

[ultraman6970]

Where is he getting the steel made? By look or somebody here in the US?

[pbarry]

Earlier in this thread, Bobswire mentioned Zen Bicycle Fabrication.

[stephenmarklay]

https://greglemond.com/#!/en/bb?m=105&s=55cm

Off the rack frameset at $2300 seems a bit dear to me.

I thought the pricing was right? Before they raised it $500. There are just so may great choices at $2300.

[eddief]

900 + 350 + 100 = 1350

[soulspinner]

i thought the pricing was right? Before they raised it $500. There are just so may great choices at $2300.

+1

[Scooper]

I donno, headset is $100+ and fork is $350-ish? $1800 for a 853 frame isn't bad. A WAterford true temper platinum OS is $2200, frame only.

But wouldn't the Waterford be custom geometry?

[Bstone]

Just finished this; got about $900 in it. Same tubeset.

Good ideas are timeless. This is the bike that God rides on Sundays.

If the new ones are anything like this, get on it.1697892637

[josephr]

is the bike that God rides on Sundays.

1697892637

last weekend he was on a hi-mod Synapse with Di2 and disc brakes.

[Bstone]

My retro grouchiness would never let that happen. Bikes and trains should be built from the same materials.:no:

[thirdgenbird]

My retro grouchiness would never let that happen. Bikes and trains should be built from the same materials.:no:

Huh? The needs and requirements of a road bike and train couldn't be more different. Besides, don't high speed trains have aluminum, titanium and carbon components?

[Bstone]

Don't muddy the issue with facts.

[thirdgenbird]

Sorry :)

For what it's worth, I like my frames steel and my components ti, carbon, and alloy.

[Hawker]

Bstone,
Nice bike! Looks like it might fit me...a 49cm by any chance?

[Bstone]

Yes, about that size. Top tube is 53. My other bike is a 50 cm RB-1 (what else?) which I always thought fit perfectly until I built this.

[oldpotatoe]

But wouldn't the Waterford be custom geometry?

It is but as I mentioned, a 853(probably 753 rear triangle), stock frame made in the US for $1800 isn't bad at all.

[Wakatel_Luum]

I like the blue...

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/08/3348c105ebfed03fb2fdd8b3b2b88162.jpg

[tumbler]

That blue is beautiful. I saw a preview of some other colors on their website (just the tubes), but that's the first full frame that I've seen other than the orange. Very nice!