VW TDI Fuel System Contamination

[cat6]

Today out of nowhere my 2010 TDI bonked hard and went kaput, 37K miles. Towed it to the dealership and they instantly said they knew what the problem was, fuel contamination, and that they are going to repair it for FREE.

While free sounds good I thought it was strange they'd blame contaminated fuel, and then repair it for free, all in a 30 minute time frame. To replace the entire fuel system is roughly $8K. I spoke at length to several people at the dealership as well as a mechanic, they all danced around the cause of contamination but often insinuated the likelihood of an issue with my gas station.

Anyhow, it looks like this is a known VW issue, which is probably why they're quickly and quietly making substantial repairs to keep their drivers happy (and quiet).

http://wot.motortrend.com/diesel-investigation-nhtsa-investigating-volkswagen-jetta-tdis-over-stalling-8723.html

TDI drivers, heads up!

[stephenmarklay]

I remember this coming up a few years ago. I can't remember what was being tossed around at the time but I thought ethanol was one thing people were talking about.

I had an early TDI 2002 or so and it was a good car. I did have some QC issues and that gave way to 3 Subarus. I did have a 2010 GTI before I gave up cars but the GTI was a fun well rounded car.

[wallymann]

Today out of nowhere my 2010 TDI bonked hard and went kaput, 37K miles. Towed it to the dealership and they instantly said they knew what the problem was, fuel contamination, and that they are going to repair it for FREE.

While free sounds good I thought it was strange they'd blame contaminated fuel, and then repair it for free, all in a 30 minute time frame. To replace the entire fuel system is roughly $8K. I spoke at length to several people at the dealership as well as a mechanic, they all danced around the cause of contamination but often insinuated the likelihood of an issue with my gas station.

Anyhow, it looks like this is a known VW issue, which is probably why they're quickly and quietly making substantial repairs to keep their drivers happy (and quiet).

http://wot.motortrend.com/diesel-investigation-nhtsa-investigating-volkswagen-jetta-tdis-over-stalling-8723.html

TDI drivers, heads up!

sounds like the boys from ingostadt had the misfortune of using BMW's high-pressure fuel pump supplier...they had a messy situation a couple years back starting with MY2008 cars with their gasoline direct-injection HPFP systems.

[ultraman6970]

How a fuel pump can go bye bye to the point of disintegrating??

Cheapo parts or something? Germans had been designing diesel cars since forever, weird.

[Netdewt]

This has to do with the newer (2009+) high pressure fuel pump. If not lubricated (by diesel) it shreds into thousands of pieces and spreads through the engine.

I have a 2009 with 92k on it and I keep all my fuel receipts partially for this reason, to prove I only use diesel.

In Minnesota now we will have a higher percentage of biodiesel, which has me worried about this sort of thing.

http://m.startribune.com/?id=265623301

[druptight]

This has to do with the newer high pressure fuel pump. If not lubricated (by diesel) it shreds into thousands of pieces and spreads through the engine.

I have one with 92k on it and I keep all my fuel receipts partially for this reason, to prove I only use diesel.

In Minnesota now we will have a higher percentage of biodiesel, which has me worried about this sort of thing.

I also keep all my receipts for this reason. I've heard that if you're not lucky like the OP has been, they can sometimes try to accuse you of putting unleaded in causing the failure. Thusly, I save all receipts to prove that all the fill ups have been with diesel. I'm approaching 50K and keeping my fingers crossed.

[Ralph]

High Pressure Fuel Pump likely destructed. Usual cause is some gasoline somehow getting mixed with some diesel at the pump. Or somewhere.

[Cat3roadracer]

Check out many posts on the TDI forum on HPFP failure. Horrific stories of folks fueling from a diesel pump, putting gasoline in their car. Mistakes can be made by the delivery person, wrong fuel in the wrong tank at the station. This seems to be the most common problem, not necessarily bad diesel fuel.

With 7500 on my TDI, I too chart all fill ups.

Aside from that added stress to your day, the car runs like a champ and gets unbelievable mileage.

[notoriousdjw]

The TDIClub FAQ about these failures is here (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=286380). There is also a long thread about the pump failure analysis in the MKVI Golf forum area as well as a several hundred page thread in the TDINews section about the NHTSA investigation. Bottom line is that VW should replace it but you might want to keep fuel receipts and try a diesel additive at each fillup to add lubricity to the fuel.

I'm still going strong on the previous model Pump Duse which had a few issues like wearing camshafts but has been stone-axe reliable for me.

[kramnnim]

What does a stack of receipts prove?

[FlashUNC]

The pumps are a known issue. The contamination may be a cause for some of these failures, but there's enough evidence about these things grenading way too early that VW has no choice but to replace them for free.

One reason I went with the GTI over the Golf diesel.

[gavingould]

As others said, go to any VW/TDI forum for the many accounts of this. They blame misfueling or contaminated fuel because (as I understand it) the high pressure fuel pump is lubricated by the diesel fuel; gasoline lacks the lubricating goodies and bang there goes your hpfp, contaminating all the downstream components with tiny metal shrapnel. Some guy has home-brewed a filtration system that would limit the damage in such an event.

17k miles on my TDI wagon in just under 2 years, added ~600mi over the last weekend at 80-90mph and 41mpg.

Was well aware of the fuel system possibilities before purchase, and it still only effects a small percentage of cars sold.

[thwart]

As others said, go to any VW/TDI forum for the many accounts of this. They blame misfueling or contaminated fuel because (as I understand it) the high pressure fuel pump is lubricated by the diesel fuel; gasoline lacks the lubricating goodies and bang there goes your hpfp, contaminating all the downstream components with tiny metal shrapnel. Some guy has home-brewed a filtration system that would limit the damage in such an event.

17k miles on my TDI wagon in just under 2 years, added ~600mi over the last weekend at 80-90mph and 41mpg.

Was well aware of the fuel system possibilities before purchase, and it still only effects a small percentage of cars sold.
This. Great car with a rarely occurring achilles heel.

And apparently biodiesel has increased lubricity, so you folks in MN should be fine.

Well, except for the Vikings...

[Netdewt]

This. Great car with a rarely occurring achilles heel.

And apparently biodiesel has increased lubricity, so you folks in MN should be fine.

Well, except for the Vikings...

My understanding is it is very rare, and usually happens early if it happens, aside from contamination. At 90k+, I feel pretty safe.

Yes. I heard its fine, they just recommend checking oil level more consistently. Not sure why. Seems weird.

Yeah, well. I'd be happy to extend any disdain for the Vikings to nearly any sport for profit and as "entertainment". :)

[notoriousdjw]

What does a stack of receipts prove?

There have been reports of VW trying to blame the owners for misfueling with unleaded rather than diesel. That is probably to blame for some of the occurances but water and unleaded contamination can occur when you use the diesel pumps. The receipts are just to prove that you fueled up with diesel. I think VW even retrofitted a guard at the tank opening so unleaded nozzles wouldn't fit.

[beeatnik]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1602486&postcount=40

[sailorboy]

Great, not comforting at all. Though I noticed that MT article and many of the associated horror stories are from back in 2010. No consolation to you early model owners, but does anyone know of changes that were made to the system to avoid this on the more recent years?

Sorry, but people saying 'mine's fine with xxx miles' isn't very reassuring since it would seem that the car is fine...until it's not. Unless you are doing some kind of analysis of the system downstream of the pump to prove it is not starting to fail and shred.

And what is this additive that someone mentioned to help lubricate the system?

thx

[yngpunk]

And what is this additive that someone mentioned to help lubricate the system?

thx

The additive is a lubricity additive that you add each time you fill up your tank. Supposed to add additional lubricity to your diesel fuel...many formulations out there...I think a search on TDI club will yield recommendations. May not help, but does not hurt.

[goonster]

the boys from ingostadt
Ingolstadt = Audi, only.

How a fuel pump can go bye bye to the point of disintegrating??
It is a positive displacement pump with outlet pressure ~ 25,000 psi, machined to extremely tight tolerances. It is my semi-educated guess that after some initial break-in period the pumps become less sensitive to a partial loss of lubricity, and are less likely to shed the tiny metal particles that initiate the failure. That would explain the pumps either fail before 40k mi, or don't fail at all.

What does a stack of receipts prove?
It proves, to the VWoA warranty case managers, that you are likely to know the difference between a diesel pump and a gasoline pump.

The pumps fail much more frequently in the U.S. than anywhere else they sell them. VW and Bosch are very confident that the pumps will not fail if they run good fuel, and they claim they've had 100+ cases where customers admitted to adding improper fuel. You don't want to blame your customers, but you also should not admit to a defect that isn't one.

Perhaps we can fault them for excessive trust in the U.S. fuel delivery infrastructure, but you can't do a recall for that.

But hey, you can always buy a Japanese diesel!

Oh, wait . . .

[kramnnim]

It just seems like it would be easy to not include any receipts that say gasoline with the stack that says diesel...

Doesn't gasoline pretty much kill more than just the pump, though? One of my coworkers put gas in the boss' diesel truck and I don't think he got out of the parking lot.

[FlashUNC]

I know from some of the early stories on VW Vortex (back in 2010), VW was initially blaming the owners that even if they used diesel, they didn't use a high enough quality diesel. Even with a stack of receipts, some guys were stuck with the $8k bill, often on a car they had for less than 10k miles.

[martl]

How a fuel pump can go bye bye to the point of disintegrating??



Cheapo parts or something? Germans had been designing diesel cars since forever, weird.


A Diesel fuel Pump is one of the most delicate parts of machinery ever given in the hands of end users. During my time at the university studying engineering, I did a mandatory internship at a branch of Bosch which developed high pressure diesel injection.
The tolerances we dealt with on some parts like the pistons were 3/1000mm.
Those pistons were used to create injection pressures up to1500 bar (which is not "something around 1500 bar") at a very precise moment and in a very precise quantity - and that was as early as 1990.
Today, up to 3000 bar are the norm.

Such machinery can be extremely delicate about very tiny things.

[druptight]

It just seems like it would be easy to not include any receipts that say gasoline with the stack that says diesel...

You can provide reasonable assurance if you have every receipt and know the general average mpg of the car that you didn't fill up with a tank of gas at any point. Plus - odds are they're really only going to care about the most recent fill up, so hold onto that one and based on the tank fullness and date of fill up can provide some assurance that you put in diesel. If nothing else it shows that you're very attuned to the diesel needs to the point of saving receipts to prove it.

[Mikej]

What sucks is they (vw) are not going to take care of it for ever. So at 125k, there is potential for an extreme repair bill. I had a friend with a Mercedes that had biodegradable wiring. They replaced it one time then it was a 4k$ harness on him.

[oldpotatoe]

What sucks is they (vw) are not going to take care of it for ever. So at 125k, there is potential for an extreme repair bill. I had a friend with a Mercedes that had biodegradable wiring. They replaced it one time then it was a 4k$ harness on him.

Pay yer $, take your chances, with ANY vehicle. Ford F150 transfer case, Hyundai and Ford Escort broken timing belts, others.

Put diesel in, get sked check ups, drive car. Not gonna 'what if' myself.

Have 2013 Jetti TDI...

All about 'goods and others', green stamps and red stamps. If 'others' or red stamps stack is higher, sell it, get something else. Not as if your choices are limited in the US.....

[malcolm]

Great, not comforting at all. Though I noticed that MT article and many of the associated horror stories are from back in 2010. No consolation to you early model owners, but does anyone know of changes that were made to the system to avoid this on the more recent years?

Sorry, but people saying 'mine's fine with xxx miles' isn't very reassuring since it would seem that the car is fine...until it's not. Unless you are doing some kind of analysis of the system downstream of the pump to prove it is not starting to fail and shred.

And what is this additive that someone mentioned to help lubricate the system?

thx

I wouldn't worry much. I put 40k+ on a sportwagen tdi and the only issue I had was the radio died and was replaced free out of warranty. I browsed the internet about the fuel pump issue before I bought mine and seem to recall reading somewhere that it was occurring in less than 1% of diesel Jetta's being sold. That's pretty good odds. It was also the internet, so who knows.

[11.4]

Sort of a chaotic thread here. I live with diesels and have encountered this both here and overseas.

1. HPFPs (High pressure fuel pumps) are getting pretty ubiquitous. You find them now in gasoline-powered vehicles as well -- the BMW 335 series had a problem for several years with a gasoline HPFP that liked to implode. In a diesel, they weren't strictly necessary in the past but they are a fine gift from the Federales, who think they are a fine way to increase gas mileage and reduce emissions. Diesel has to be sprayed at high pressure into the engine, hence HPFP's, but the pressures needed these days are pretty extreme.

2. The problem occurs usually when you get water into your HPFP and it corrodes and breaks the pump. The pump simply shatters inside and all the little bits go right into the diesel injectors. Bad story. Water in your HPFP can be from a number of sources. Water leaks in your fuel tank or anywhere in your gas line can do it. So, obviously, can putting the wrong fuel in your tank. At the gas station, it's a rare fuel pump tank that doesn't have water in it. When the tanker truck pulls up and pumps in fresh diesel, it stirs up that water. I like to find when the tanker arrives at my local station and I don't refuel within 2-3 hours of that.

Your fuel system can also accumulate water. There's inevitably a small amount in the fuel, which a fuel-water separator normally takes care of. But if you allow it to fill with water, it can't do its job any longer and can dump a nice bolus of water right into your system. Bad things then happen.

Also, modern fuels tend to grow stuff -- bacteria, various molds, and so on. You probably know that if you get a couple gallons of gas for the mower, it goes bad in 60-90 days. That's mostly because of the stuff growing up in it. Same holds for gas in your vehicle or gas you pump into it. No self-respecting pump will have fuel that old, but I do always make sure I buy from a station with a lot of traffic so fuel is always fresh. That ethanol in the fuel is another fine stupidity from the Federales -- any chemist or physicist can tell you that a gallon of ethanol burns with a tiny percent of the efficiency of a gallon of diesel or gasoline. So why is it required? It satisfies the idiots in the environmental movement who think it improves the release of emissions. Even more, it's a successful lobby by the farmers that grow the grains that are used to make the alcohol. All it really does is corrode your whole fuel system, burns through fast so you actually get less mileage per gallon, and the gas station gets to sell you more gallons of fuel. What a winner!

3. As for fuel additives, there are only two to consider for diesel. If you are in extreme cold, an anti-gelling compound keeps it liquid. Since most fuel sold up north already has some anti-gelling compound, this only matters if it is very very cold where you are.

For most users, some cetane additive may be helpful. Diesel fuel varies widely across the country. In Texas, it already comes out of the pump with a high cetane index, whereas in the northwest the diesel is some of the crappiest in the country with a third the cetane index. Cetane basically helps lubricate the fuel pump and the engine itself. (The HPFP is self-lubricating, so the only lubrication it gets is from the fuel, not from an oil reservoir anywhere.) You can get your fuel tested inexpensively, but you can also find info on cetane levels online. Extra cetane doesn't make things any better, but you at least need the level required for your fuel pump and engine. Cetane additive is cheap (I pay about $9 for the Ford Motorcraft additive to treat about 125 gallons of diesel) and is a no-brainer safety measure to protect your vehicle.

4. As for keeping records, this is really to help fight a warranty claim with the engine manufacturer or, if it really is the fuel, to file a claim with the station. Gas stations do have mixups and sometimes just don't clean their tanks to get rid of water. If you go to a station and you immediately have fuel contamination, you have to have the receipts to show you didn't have the problem before the fill up but did afterwards. You'll also need to have your fuel tested if you do have any problems (and always get an independent lab to test it, since no oil company will believe a test done by your dealer service department, or vice versa). I always keep fuel receipts as well as all service receipts, receipts for cetane, etc. If you go to court (and HPFP failures are expensive -- in our trucks they run about $12K apiece to repair) you want every bit of paper you can muster to show how careful you are.

5. I also suggest getting your oil checked at every oil change. Blackstone Laboratories does an amazing and informative test on a sample you send to them after an oil change. It catches a multitude of issues and helps buttress your case if you end up fighting either the station or your manufacturer.

6. As for other precautions to take? On the first of every month, always drain the water separator on your fuel/water filter. It just takes a second and if you drain a half cup of fuel into a clear glass bottle and let it sit for ten minutes, you should see nothing but clear fuel. If it's cloudy or if there's anything settling out in the bottom, you are accumulating water. Even though you have a fuel/water separator, it's there only to protect you. You shouldn't be collecting water on a normal basis. If you see anything, it's time to figure out why.

Locking fuel caps are smart on diesels. There are kids who will dump a cup of water into a diesel just as a very expensive prank.

There's an in-line fuel filter in your fuel system. Change it religiously. And when the old one comes out, cut it open and see what's inside. It should look like clean fuel and perhaps the slightest amount of particulate matter. If you see any amount of real crud, time to find out why.

If you live in or anywhere near Oregon, where the law requires that the station pump the gas, always, without exception, get out and watch the kid pump the fuel. Driving through Oregon I've twice caught the kid trying to put a gasoline nozzle into my diesel fill tube. Yes, they will probably be liable if it happens, but you may have to sue to get the station to pay, and your diesel will be kaput for quite a while. It's a big repair.

Diesels used to be simple, bulletproof engines. I wish I could say that they still are. Most of the changes aren't for the improvement of the engine -- they are driven by environmental issues and most are purely bogus. They risk the engine and simply make a diesel much more complicated and more expensive to manufacture. Your fuel pump problems here are the most classic issue to come from the recent evolution of diesels, but with a few routine precautions you don't have anything to worry about.

[Cat3roadracer]

11.4 - thanks for taking the time to type all of that. Very interesting.

[goonster]

It satisfies the idiots in the environmental movement
Yeah, but . . . Energy Independence!

Blackstone Laboratories does an amazing and informative test on a sample you send to them after an oil change. It catches a multitude of issues and helps buttress your case if you end up fighting either the station or your manufacturer.
I used to have these oil tests done, looking for a) oil breakdown and b) bearing damage, and I realize that a stack of test results proves the point that the engine was fine up to a certain point. What would you look for to indicate fuel contamination? In other words, what can the test tell you that is actionable by something other than more frequent oil changes or an engine rebuild?

There's an in-line fuel filter in your fuel system. Change it religiously.
Yep, I changed my fuel filter like I went to church. Every eight years, approximately.

they are driven by environmental issues and most are purely bogus.
I also used to scoff at the tightening particulate regs ("It's just soot!"), but it turns out that the health risks (http://www.epa.gov/region7/air/quality/pmhealth.htm) are no joke. I find the evidence of elevated heart disease quite scary. Holding passenger cars to a much stricter standard than bigger trucks seems unfair, but they are the low hanging fruit.

[malcolm]

Yeah, but . . . Energy Independence!


I used to have these oil tests done, looking for a) oil breakdown and b) bearing damage, and I realize that a stack of test results proves the point that the engine was fine up to a certain point. What would you look for to indicate fuel contamination? In other words, what can the test tell you that is actionable by something other than more frequent oil changes or an engine rebuild?


Yep, I changed my fuel filter like I went to church. Every eight years, approximately.


I also used to scoff at the tightening particulate regs ("It's just soot!"), but it turns out that the health risks (http://www.epa.gov/region7/air/quality/pmhealth.htm) are no joke. I find the evidence of elevated heart disease quite scary. Holding passenger cars to a much stricter standard than bigger trucks seems unfair, but they are the low hanging fruit.

The oil tests probably wont help if it's a catastrophic failure. I've owned diesel offshore fishing boats and we would do an analysis of the engine and transmission oil periodically, mostly looking for metal filings/particulates indicating impending bearing failure or just excessive wear.

[notoriousdjw]

Here is a good rundown of some additives (http://articles.mopar1973man.com/general-cummins/36-fuel-system/68-hfrr-testing-of-common-diesel-fuel-additives) and their ability to increase lubricity and decrease fuel pump wear (lower wear numbers are better). Some info about the test method here (http://www.pcs-instruments.com/hfrr/hfrr.shtml#page=page-1). The change in the US to ultra low sulphur diesel fuel (around 2006 or 2007) caused a decrease in fuel lubricity.

Another strategy for owners of the CR engines is to install an additional fuel filter to contain the shrapnel when the pump goes boom. The big cost of the HPFP failure is that VW replaces everything from tank to injectors ($9k was the cost being thrown around on tdiclub). The additional kit contains the damage so that you can replace the fuel pump and be back in business. The thread for the kit is here (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=375803) but it sounds like the inventor is pretty swamped with a long waiting list. Sort of like some custom frame builders so the process should be familiar to many of you ;)

I don't have any affiliation with any of the links and haven't carefully followed the results of the 2micron filter. Just a VW fan who is trying to justify a new TDI.

[11.4]

Here is a good rundown of some additives (http://articles.mopar1973man.com/general-cummins/36-fuel-system/68-hfrr-testing-of-common-diesel-fuel-additives) and their ability to increase lubricity and decrease fuel pump wear (lower wear numbers are better). Some info about the test method here (http://www.pcs-instruments.com/hfrr/hfrr.shtml#page=page-1). The change in the US to ultra low sulphur diesel fuel (around 2006 or 2007) caused a decrease in fuel lubricity.

Another strategy for owners of the CR engines is to install an additional fuel filter to contain the shrapnel when the pump goes boom. The big cost of the HPFP failure is that VW replaces everything from tank to injectors ($9k was the cost being thrown around on tdiclub). The additional kit contains the damage so that you can replace the fuel pump and be back in business. The thread for the kit is here (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=375803) but it sounds like the inventor is pretty swamped with a long waiting list. Sort of like some custom frame builders so the process should be familiar to many of you ;)

I don't have any affiliation with any of the links and haven't carefully followed the results of the 2micron filter. Just a VW fan who is trying to justify a new TDI.

The ironic issue with these supplemental filters (or other better filters that are substituted for the OEM one) is that VW will consider it an unequivocal violation of warranty coverage.

Also, I've had a couple $700 equivalents designed for Ford SuperDuties, and if the HPFP blew, the parts went right through both parts of the filter. These were good at doing a better filtration, especially with fuel contaminants, but when little steel bullets started flying around, they made it through every filtration material. Unfortunately the incidence of HPFP explosions is actually pretty low, so it's almost impossible to get good statistical reliability data on these devices. Or, um, perhaps it's fortunate. This is not an issue that most people have to deal with.