Moots and Parlee

[JH7302]

Hey guys,
I've been a lurker for a while and have learned a ton from you all. I've found the Paceline to be one of the more knowledgeable and cordial cycling forums on the web so am glad to join the community.

In any case, I've been riding a CAAD 9 for several years and am finally looking to upgrade. After testing out a ton of different bikes, from Specialized Tarmac/Roubaix, to Cervelo R3/R5, it's come down to a Moots Vamoots RSL or Parlee Z5i. I know they are very different rides, but I really enjoyed them both above all others. The Moots has a fantastic ride quality and yet is quick and fairly light for Ti. The Parlee is just so smooth and feels like it is floating over the road without feeling dead. I've found both to be sufficiently stiff for my needs. I don't race and do about 200 miles/week over rolling terrain. I value the ability to go 100 miles without feeling beat up over winning a sprint. Curious what path you would take. Thanks for the feedback.

James

[jr59]

Welcome to the madness....:banana: Buy both..lol!

I love both bikes and almost bought a Parlee a short while back, but if I had to pick one, I will always side on the Ti.

[oldpotatoe]

Hey guys,
I've been a lurker for a while and have learned a ton from you all. I've found the Paceline to be one of the more knowledgeable and cordial cycling forums on the web so am glad to join the community.

In any case, I've been riding a CAAD 9 for several years and am finally looking to upgrade. After testing out a ton of different bikes, from Specialized Tarmac/Roubaix, to Cervelo R3/R5, it's come down to a Moots Vamoots RSL or Parlee Z5i. I know they are very different rides, but I really enjoyed them both above all others. The Moots has a fantastic ride quality and yet is quick and fairly light for Ti. The Parlee is just so smooth and feels like it is floating over the road without feeling dead. I've found both to be sufficiently stiff for my needs. I don't race and do about 200 miles/week over rolling terrain. I value the ability to go 100 miles without feeling beat up over winning a sprint. Curious what path you would take. Thanks for the feedback.

James

Moots. Many life time frame, better crash worthiness, made in Colorado. Not carbon.

[Dromen]

Ti. If one is just as good as other, its metal over plastic for me.

[radsmd]

Welcome to the madness....:banana: Buy both..lol!

I love both bikes and almost bought a Parlee a short while back, but if I had to pick one, I will always side on the Ti.

I totally agree to get both. Love my Vamoots, Parlee Z5 to be delivered today. Variety is the spice of life(don't tell my wife that).

[Hank Scorpio]

This may not help but I have a Z3 and a Ti Indy fab. I would say I lean towards a more agressive riding style as I would prefer "speed"/ stiffness over comfort to a degree. I usually pick my Parlee for weekend rides where I know I am going to push the pace. When I am doing recovery or tootling I would take the IF. BUT both frames were bought second hand so if the IF tubeset was better matched to my weight and riding preferences it might be a closer choice. The IF is by no means a noodle but the front end is much "flexier" than the Parlee and can feel vague when railing corners at speed.

[BobbyJones]

Funny you should pose this question.

I own both a CAAD9 and a Vamoots (not an RSL) and enjoy rides on the longer side. Both have been comfortable for me over the long haul.

However, this weekend I had the opportunity to take a Parlee Z5 w/Di2 for a quick spin while at the coffee shop.

All I can say is: flip a coin. I've never even considered a Carbon Fiber bike until I rode that thing. It just felt "right".

[OperaLover]

Moots did a test ride program his past weekend at Veloce Velo on Mercier Island, WA. I test rode an RSL (owned by one of the shop mechanics) since Moots did not have one in my size for me to ride. Michaels from Moots was a nice guy , too. WOW! Nice riding bike without any superlight parts on it. (Red, DA Wheels, Ti post, Cannondale Si cranks, ENVE cockpit). Very impressed. I ride steel and this was just different. Great power to the rear wheel and it descended very nicely. All it needed to suit me was Record 11 and some alloy tubulars and I would have been in bike heaven. I wish I could have ridden the plain Vamoots with the more standard geo, to make a better comparison to my existing rides. Moots makes a quality product here in the USA with USA sourced Ti. On my short list for a new bike. (Maybe next year; we are remodleing our kitchen. ;>))

Only negative in my mind was the BB30. but the CR and the Vamoots both come with standard BB.

[polyhistoric]

I have both a Parlee Z4 and a Seven Ti, While the geometries are different, the intent behind the handling of each is trending towards aggressive/agile.

I reach for each bike for a different reason. The carbon bike is for the days I feel like a hammer and want to push pace and ride "hard" - the light weight and re-activeness of the carbon floats along the road. The Ti bike feels grounded and reacts to body english much more willingly.

If I had to chose 1 all-rounder, it would be the Ti. The ride is sublime, Ti is forever, and I don't have to worry about cracks if somebody knocks it over at the coffee shop.

[joep2517]

.... The ride is sublime, Ti is forever, and I don't have to worry about cracks if somebody knocks it over at the coffee shop.

Well said. This is why I sold my carbon frames and bought a Ti bike.

I will say, if I was going to buy a carbon frame - Parlee would be one of two frames I would want.

[Ken Robb]

I have a Hampsten Strada Bianca that was built by MOOTS with YBB rear end. It does so many things so well that I sold my LOOK and Serotta Legend which were both wonderful racy road bikes.

I think you would find that a MOOTS with clearances for for tires up to 700x35 or so will open opportunities to ride rough and/or unpaved roads with little to no reduction in performance on smooth pavement. My bike has Alpha-Q cross fork and PAUL canti brakes.

I don't know if Parlee can offer the fat tire option.

[kramnnim]

I've ridden my Z5 around 5k since I got it in March, it replaced a Look 586 that was noticeably more comfortable on bad roads. I don't feel especially beat up after long rides on the Z5, though. (around 18 100+ mile rides on the Z5 so far)

Haven't yet been able to experience the joys of a high end ti frame, just an old Litespeed. Always been confused at how some consider ti to be indestructible, it can be dented and sometimes cracks...

[Ralph]

Compared to a CAAD 9.....a lot of bikes cost more, have better paint jobs, ride more compliant, etc.......but a CAAD 9 that fits you properly with good parts and wheels.....is pretty hard to beat for fast riding. But hey.....I get the desire for something different.....that's why most of us ride more than one bike.

I'm kinda in the market for a new or like new used (cheap) frame just for going out and hammering 30-40 miles 3-4 times a week with my regular riding buddies. I think a CAAD 9 with threaded BB can't be beat for that use. Would use something else for other rides.

[torquer]

The ride is sublime, Ti is forever, and I don't have to worry about cracks if somebody knocks it over at the coffee shop.
As another poster wrote, "welcome to the madness", indeed!
You also forgot to mention the NYTimes article about how exploding CF frames are decimating the pro peleton.:rolleyes:

[veloduffer]

I have owned a Moots Compact and currently own a Z5SLI (previously had a Z4). I found the Moots to be a very comfy ride, especially on bad roads or gravel. But it didn't have the snap/stiffness that I wanted and eventually replaced it with a Spectrum Super Ti, which had a racier geometry.

The Parlee is a wonderful ride and the best carbon that I have ridden -- and I have owned carbon bikes since I bought a Giant Cadex in the 90s. It seems to be more responsive when you want to accelerate or power, which feels great in the hills. Yet, it is smooth over rough roads.

Either bike will be great for what your riding needs are. My preference would be the Parlee, as you get the benefits of a race oriented bike but is smooth and very light. Plus Parlee has one of the best customer services amongst bike mfrs.

[pdmtong]

The ti is forever position is only relevant if indeed you keep the bike forever
Will you?

I had a Parlee Z3c made in Peabody. The ride and was superb over 100/9500'
It's gone only because it being an older model it was not a frame I could build into a 14# go fast sled. I plan to come back to carbon when my war chest is replenished

I have a moots CR and the ride is also superb. It does not snap like the Parlee when I get up and go the ride is slightly more muted as you would expect from metal. Both frames make me equally happy

A close friend has a rsl with tapered enve and 9070 hed carbon moots stem and post. It weighs 15.2.

If you want a lighter bike do the Z5. To me that would be the most compelling reason for the Parlee. You can paint it too

Moots. Iconic USA brand. Small batch Handmade

Ride wise I Think it's a coin flip

Decide with the frame that speaks to you in total

[JH7302]

These are some great responses, thanks guys. I knew both brands/frames are highly regarded and I figured I would get diversity in the responses. At least I know I really can't go wrong either way... still no closer to a decision.

For those of you who own a Z5, is there enough clearance to run 25s? Looked pretty tight with the 23s on the one I demo'ed.

[kramnnim]

Hmm, a friend runs 25s on A23 rims, but has very little clearance. I run 23s on...whatever width Enve 3.4's are, and the little tire nubs wore off the paint before I noticed what was happening.

[Mark McM]

The ti is forever position is only relevant if indeed you keep the bike forever
Will you?

And even if you do keep it forever, finding replacement components becomes more problematic as standards evolve. Since Ti frames started becoming widely available (late '80s), axle widths have gone from 126mm to 130mm, and more recently moving to 135mm (for disc brakes); forks and headsets have gone from 1" to 1 1/8" to tapered; many of the first Ti frames had pressed in BB bearingss, and then moved to BSC, while modern BB standards have moved into oversized press-fit and direct-fit; most recently we've been seeing changes in brake mounting, including disc brakes and direct mount brakes.

You're titanium frame may last forever, but you may not be able to get components to fit it forever.

[firerescuefin]

These are some great responses, thanks guys. I knew both brands/frames are highly regarded and I figured I would get diversity in the responses. At least I know I really can't go wrong either way... still no closer to a decision.

For those of you who own a Z5, is there enough clearance to run 25s? Looked pretty tight with the 23s on the one I demo'ed.

No....a real bummer (I own one)

Otherwise I love the bike

[sitzmark]

...
For those of you who own a Z5, is there enough clearance to run 25s? Looked pretty tight with the 23s on the one I demo'ed.

Approximately 27mm inside-to-inside (chain) stay width at top of tire and ~29mm mid tire.

[buddybikes]

How old are you? Does your body have more creaks? If you are getting on the second half of life, go ti for the longhaul.

If going ti, there a number of other great builders out there, probably bit cheaper than moots, and perhaps custom.

[JH7302]

I'm 35, probably in the best shape of my life. Maybe Parlee now, Moots later? Haha.

[beeatnik]

The RSL presents as a dime but is really a 9.

The Parlee presents as an 8 but is probably an 8.5, in some cases a 9.

Expectations are easier to manage with the bike that will reveal more depth over time.

Also, I would doubt there are any guys (your age) who own an RSL and dont hear a tiny voice telling them they're leaving something on the table, even against a 7.5 (Tarmac).

[pdmtong]

The RSL presents as a dime but is really a 9.

The Parlee presents as an 8 but is probably an 8.5, in some cases a 9.

Expectations are easier to manage with the bike that will reveal more depth over time.

Also, I would doubt there are any guys (your age) who own an RSL and dont hear a tiny voice telling them they're leaving something on the table, even against a 7.5 (Tarmac).

this is a great perspective. the RSL is Moots take on approximating carbon using ti. But, as you know, ti isn't and can never be carbon. Its easy enough for the die-hard metal guys to say RSL...so they get closer but not over the carbon line.

But for those indifferent, like I suspect you are, that leaving something on the table is the snappy feeling and 1+ pounds...

I have spoken to Tom at parlee a number of times over the years. they really feel the asian made frames deliver the parlee ride character and offer all the latest component compatibility. there is NO REASON to chase a handmade Z zero/1/2/3 unless you are loaded with cash or need custom. They feel the Z5 is that good.

There is a camp that feels RSL too stiff and declining comfort at 75+ miles so it goes back to the intended purpose as well.

I can tell you for sure though that both my Z3c and CR have left me minty fresh after a long day with lots of climbing. But, the CR is intentionally less stiff than the RSL.

[oldpotatoe]

this is a great perspective. the RSL is Moots take on approximating carbon using ti. But, as you know, ti isn't and can never be carbon. Its easy enough for the die-hard metal guys to say RSL...so they get closer but not over the carbon line.

But for those indifferent, like I suspect you are, that leaving something on the table is the snappy feeling and 1+ pounds...

I have spoken to Tom at parlee a number of times over the years. they really feel the asian made frames deliver the parlee ride character and offer all the latest component compatibility. there is NO REASON to chase a handmade Z zero/1/2/3 unless you are loaded with cash or need custom. They feel the Z5 is that good.

There is a camp that feels RSL too stiff and declining comfort at 75+ miles so it goes back to the intended purpose as well.

I can tell you for sure though that both my Z3c and CR have left me minty fresh after a long day with lots of climbing. But, the CR is intentionally less stiff than the RSL.

really? A 'camp'??

[beeatnik]

really? A 'camp'??

Yep, it's stiff in the wrong ways.

[thunderworks]

I have a Moots Compact with S&S couplers. I also have a Cervelo R5. I have two riding buddies. One of them has a Parlee Z5 and a Moots similar to mine. The other buddy has a Moots RSL.

Here's our consensus . . . the Cervelo and the Parlee are more efficient bikes, i.e. they are slightly faster. The oversize BB30 on the Parlee and the BBRight on the Cervelo do what the marketing claims - transmits more energy input into moving the back wheel. The RSL is more efficient than out Compact Moots - again attributed to the BB30. The RSL is lighter than the Compacts, but not quite as light as the Parlee - but it's close.

Both bikes you're considering are top of the line, fabulous machines. Your soul searching should try to discriminate between preferences:

1. Lighter and slightly more efficient (faster) . . . pick the Parlee
2. Comfortable, last forever, still fast, but . . . pick the Moots

As many have pointed out, the Moots is a lifetime bike - that may or may not be important to you.

[Hepmike]

Yep, it's stiff in the wrong ways.

What she said (thankyouverymuch)

[fuzzalow]

Yep, it's stiff in the wrong ways.

Can you elaborate on what this means to you? What is stiff in the wrong ways?

And I admit I haven't a clue as to the whys and how's of the desirability of "stiffness" as a characteristic in a bike. Lack of stiffness I can grasp; nobody is desirous of a noodly frame. But stiff in wrong ways implies too much stiffness which I don't understand. Kinda like Goldilocks & the 3 Bears - how and what determines "just right"?

I have a Moots Compact with S&S couplers. I also have a Cervelo R5. I have two riding buddies. One of them has a Parlee Z5 and a Moots similar to mine. The other buddy has a Moots RSL.

Here's our consensus . . . the Cervelo and the Parlee are more efficient bikes, i.e. they are slightly faster. The oversize BB30 on the Parlee and the BBRight on the Cervelod do what the marketing claims - transmits more energy input into moving the back wheel. The RSL is more efficient than out Compact Moots - again attributed to the BB30. The RSL is lighter than the Compacts, but not quite as light as the Parlee - but it's close.

Both bikes you're considering are top of the line, fabulous machines. Your soul searching should try to discriminate between preferences:

1. Lighter and slightly more efficient (faster) . . . pick the Parlee
2. Comfortable, last forever, still fast, but . . . pick the Moots

As many have pointed out, the Moots is a lifetime bike - that may or may not be important to you.

I respect your opinion and these views make interesting reading. But I can't grasp the concepts of efficient/faster as any more arbitrary than the concepts or claims surrounding "too much stiffness" as discussed in my above question.

I am truly curious about these discussions when they happen because I always feel like the oddball in the crowd that hasn't a clue about a topic everybody else is fluent, versed and conversant about. It's like that vacant grin and occasional head nod that betrays the fact that nothing being said in to conversation registers in any way whatsoever! :o Any knowledge or insight that you comrades can respond to that might bring me outta the darkness on this is appreciated.

[beeatnik]

Fuzz, I, as you, study the riding styles of the pros. Occasionally, we get local pros on our more competitive training rides (parcours/loops which I have ridden a few hundred times). When we hit steep pitches after long false flat sections, the pros who are sprinters are out of the saddle, the pros who are all-arounders power up the grade, seated. I'm of the "power up the grade" in the saddle variety. When I've done these training loops on a Compact Sl or RSL, the bike has disappeared under me. And, subjectively, the power transfer has met my expectations of a pro caliber bike. I should be able to hold 20mph, on a short 10% grade without having to throw the bike around like a lunatic (one of my tests for a stiff frame). Now, whether or not I'm a second or two off of my PRs on the Moots vs the EVO Hi Mod, I'm willing to chalk that up to acceptable margin of error. However, the Moots (SL or RSL) fail as pro-caliber bikes, for me, physiologically, because after these 50 mile rides my body feels as if it's been bludgeoned by a 2x4. That's the wrong type of stiffness. Or to paraphrase Paul, and contrary to popular belief, super stiff Ti bikes are not 100/9500, all day machines. YMMV

Can you elaborate on what this means to you? What is stiff in the wrong ways?

And I admit I haven't a clue as to the whys and how's of the desirability of "stiffness" as a characteristic in a bike. Lack of stiffness I can grasp; nobody is desirous of a noodly frame. But stiff in wrong ways implies too much stiffness which I don't understand. Kinda like Goldilocks & the 3 Bears - how and what determines "just right"?



I respect your opinion and these views make interesting reading. But I can't grasp the concepts of efficient/faster as any more arbitrary than the concepts or claims surrounding "too much stiffness" as discussed in my above question.

I am truly curious about these discussions when they happen because I always feel like the oddball in the crowd that hasn't a clue about a topic everybody else is fluent, versed and conversant about. It's like that vacant grin and occasional head nod that betrays the fact that nothing being said in to conversation registers in any way whatsoever! :o Any knowledge or insight that you comrades can respond to that might bring me outta the darkness on this is appreciated.

[thunderworks]

Can you elaborate on what this means to you? What is stiff in the wrong ways?

And I admit I haven't a clue as to the whys and how's of the desirability of "stiffness" as a characteristic in a bike. Lack of stiffness I can grasp; nobody is desirous of a noodly frame. But stiff in wrong ways implies too much stiffness which I don't understand. Kinda like Goldilocks & the 3 Bears - how and what determines "just right"?



I respect your opinion and these views make interesting reading. But I can't grasp the concepts of efficient/faster as any more arbitrary than the concepts or claims surrounding "too much stiffness" as discussed in my above question.

I am truly curious about these discussions when they happen because I always feel like the oddball in the crowd that hasn't a clue about a topic everybody else is fluent, versed and conversant about. It's like that vacant grin and occasional head nod that betrays the fact that nothing being said in to conversation registers in any way whatsoever! :o Any knowledge or insight that you comrades can respond to that might bring me outta the darkness on this is appreciated.


Think of it this way . . .when you input energy into the drivetrain system (your pedaling motion), an efficient bike takes that energy and transmits it into the back wheel to mechanically drive the bike forward. The term efficiency is intended to distinguish between bikes that do that without much loss of energy. An efficient bike converts your energy input into forward motion more successfully than a less efficient bike. Part, although certainly not all, of that difference that exists between bikes is related to how stiff the bike frame is. A flexible frame dissipates your energy input before you drive the rear wheel, hence it is less efficient. The speed you can generate with a bike depends to some degree, on what percentage of your energy input actually can be utilized mechanically propelling the bike forward.

[pdmtong]

really? A 'camp'??

Yes, as in the opinion of many more than a few I have run across.
It's ok, OP, you needn't be the defender of all things Moots. The RSL is a bad-a$$ machine...but folks just weren't loving it for all day rides.

Yep, it's stiff in the wrong ways.

application -specific, right?

However, the Moots (SL or RSL) fail as pro-caliber bikes, for me, physiologically, because after these 50 mile rides my body feels as if it's been bludgeoned by a 2x4. That's the wrong type of stiffness. Or to paraphrase Paul, and contrary to popular belief, super stiff Ti bikes are not 100/9500, all day machines. YMMV

Exactly... stiffness is power transfer and efficiency, but stiffness can also be the bain of comfort. This is like here's three pick two.

So to the thread OP (not peter) I'm not saying the RSL sucks...I am just saying it has application specific nuances.

[jimoots]

My favorite thing about Ti is that you can crash it and not sweat on the integrity of the bike afterwards. If this bike is your 'only' bike and you are stretching yourself to make the purchase, go titanium. Carbon is a great material that makes great bikes but it is somewhat disposable.

[mod6]

I currently own a Kent Eriksen that I would say is on par stiffness wise with a RSL.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=142383

A good friend of mine has custom Parlee I think a Z1. We have traded bikes for a 70 mile Ride. Both bikes are running zipp 404 with conti S4000 tires. My impression is that the Parlee was a bit lighter and snappier out of the saddle,
especially on short steep climbs. I feel the Parlee beat me up a bit more than riding that loop on my Ericksen, but that could be due not having the fit dialed in. The Ericksen has a much better feel on twisty descents. On the flats both
these bikes haul when you smash the pedals. My buddy and I feel either bike would be great to own. I would love to have the Parlee in my garage and he felt the same way about my bike. Throw 2 names in a hat and pick one, really won't go wrong with either

[93legendti]

Hey guys,
I've been a lurker for a while and have learned a ton from you all. I've found the Paceline to be one of the more knowledgeable and cordial cycling forums on the web so am glad to join the community.

In any case, I've been riding a CAAD 9 for several years and am finally looking to upgrade. After testing out a ton of different bikes, from Specialized Tarmac/Roubaix, to Cervelo R3/R5, it's come down to a Moots Vamoots RSL or Parlee Z5i. I know they are very different rides, but I really enjoyed them both above all others. The Moots has a fantastic ride quality and yet is quick and fairly light for Ti. The Parlee is just so smooth and feels like it is floating over the road without feeling dead. I've found both to be sufficiently stiff for my needs. I don't race and do about 200 miles/week over rolling terrain. I value the ability to go 100 miles without feeling beat up over winning a sprint. Curious what path you would take. Thanks for the feedback.

James
As Dave Kirk has pointed out a few times, ti seems to work better for smaller riders. I ride a 53-54cm top tube bike and love ti (I love ti/carbon bikes even more). Depending upon your size, carbon might work better for you.

[fuzzalow]

Thanks gentlemen for explaining an angle on the stiffness/efficiency question. I guess I am at a loss because unlike say, a race car setup that can be quantified as to lap time, I don't know that I could make a judgment for better snap on a sprint or climbing efficiency or stuff like that. Maybe largely because I posses the ability to do neither. My last race was decades ago and its recurrence is unlikely.

But I'll keep trying and one day enlightenment will come!

[dee-why]

Great inputs from everyone so far and I'm eating it up, feeling some of the same experiences but with different reasons.

I have a Parlee Z3 and ride that the least but every time I hop on the bike, it reminds me how much I love the feel of the bike. It seems to disappear under me when I'm riding in the flats. When climbing, it responds extremely well to accelerations out of the saddle. Descending is extremely smooth and controlled no matter what your speed is going into a turn. The only thing I'm consciously aware of is that it's carbon and I don't want to ride it over gravel (not saying I won't)...but that's just me.

I have several Moots: Compact SL, Vamoots SL and RSL (with the Alpha Q fork) and I LOVE every one of the bikes. Of all the Moots', I ride the Vamoots the most because it has the predictable, smooth, roll over anything feel. Above all else, it has the "just right" feeling you get that makes you hum and smile. The RSL is the stiffest of this bunch. You can't go wrong with any of the models. It's just a matter of which "look" you prefer.

For a comparison of Moots vs. Parlee, I ride my Moots on the weekends when riding with my friends because I feel like I'm "soul riding". Most of my best descending times have come while riding my Moots. The Parlee is always a 4th, sometimes 5th thought (even behind a Pegoretti Marcelo - but that's a different topic) because the Moots is THAT good.

I hope you're able to test ride some of these bikes to get a feel for yourself. And report back to us after you do. :)

[pdmtong]

Great inputs from everyone so far and I'm eating it up, feeling some of the same experiences but with different reasons.



I have a Parlee Z3 and ride that the least but every time I hop on the bike, it reminds me how much I love the feel of the bike. It seems to disappear under me when I'm riding in the flats. When climbing, it responds extremely well to accelerations out of the saddle. Descending is extremely smooth and controlled no matter what your speed is going into a turn. The only thing I'm consciously aware of is that it's carbon and I don't want to ride it over gravel (not saying I won't)...but that's just me.



I have several Moots: Compact SL, Vamoots SL and RSL (with the Alpha Q fork) and I LOVE every one of the bikes. Of all the Moots', I ride the Vamoots the most because it has the predictable, smooth, roll over anything feel. Above all else, it has the "just right" feeling you get that makes you hum and smile. The RSL is the stiffest of this bunch. You can't go wrong with any of the models. It's just a matter of which "look" you prefer.



For a comparison of Moots vs. Parlee, I ride my Moots on the weekends when riding with my friends because I feel like I'm "soul riding". Most of my best descending times have come while riding my Moots. The Parlee is always a 4th, sometimes 5th thought (even behind a Pegoretti Marcelo - but that's a different topic) because the Moots is THAT good.



I hope you're able to test ride some of these bikes to get a feel for yourself. And report back to us after you do. :)


Where have you been? With a fleet like that we need you posting more

This is like going to the mansion and being asked to pick the PMOY. It's a beautiful thing ain't it?

[oldpotatoe]

Yes, as in the opinion of many more than a few I have run across.
It's ok, OP, you needn't be the defender of all things Moots. The RSL is a bad-a$$ machine...but folks just weren't loving it for all day rides.



application -specific, right?



Exactly... stiffness is power transfer and efficiency, but stiffness can also be the bain of comfort. This is like here's three pick two.

So to the thread OP (not peter) I'm not saying the RSL sucks...I am just saying it has application specific nuances.

Why not?

They say up front it's a titanium version of carbon of sorts(weight wise) and a 'race bike', whether you race or not. But after riding one, I find the 'not loving for all day rides' confusing seeing some of the ass hatchets now being sold, of carbon. Plus tires, pressure has more to do with it all, IMHO.

Plus asking somebody how a bike 'feels', is subjective and it just depends.

Another of the same story.

At Morgul-Bismark, sponsored racing team, cat 1s, a couple of pros..all had identical down to the tires, Serotta Concours ti frames..one guy rides, 'stiffest frame/bike I have ever ridden, crisp, climbs great'....another, identical bike, same size too, 'soft, vague, not predictable'....ehhh???

[JH7302]

Fantastic insight from everyone. Thanks again. I'm enjoying the lively "debate" although I must say it doesn't help bring me any closer to a decision :)

I did have the chance to test ride the Vamoots CR, RSL and Parlee Z5i. I suppose part of the problem is that one can really only glean so much over a 50-mile test ride--where all bikes feel awesome! While the CR has been billed as more of an all-day ride, what leaps out at you during a test ride is how much more responsive the RSL is out of the saddle, and it's frankly hard to overlook that. A lot of the insight around how the bike leaves you after 100 miles is quite interesting and probably varies considerably, but unfortunately I didn't get the opportunity to experience it.

If I was honest about which ride I found myself simply enjoying more, I would probably lean towards the Parlee (I rode on smooth roads and rolling hills with a couple sustained climbs). But the Moots offers so much as far as Ti being more resilient, esp when I have to go over gravel or rougher roads, and I can run 25s on it.

So back to square one I guess!

[pdmtong]

At Morgul-Bismark, sponsored racing team, cat 1s, a couple of pros..all had identical down to the tires, Serotta Concours ti frames..one guy rides, 'stiffest frame/bike I have ever ridden, crisp, climbs great'....another, identical bike, same size too, 'soft, vague, not predictable'....ehhh???

This is just so true. My KGSN ottrott was built out of 8.5 tubing and the ride was great. StephenCL has it now as part of my N-1 efforts. I asked Jackson Stewart who rode for the team and later for bmc what he thought of the ottrott. He was not ephusove in his comments. More like that's the bike they had to ride so he rode it. Vague While descending at speed. Not precise enough. Ok yea it's the voice of a pro rider commenting on the last 0.5% bit there it is. I bought the shoe covers he was selling on craigslist and drove off with him hanging out in the back of his car in the Safeway parking lot. Fark - he wasn't a fan of ben's best bike and does it really come to pros selling extra kit on CL? at least I can say those vermarc covers are simply awesome.

[OtayBW]

Plus tires, pressure has more to do with it [all day comfort] all, IMHO.
I frankly don't see that. Use of identical tires and pressures on my Ti, steel, and C bikes in no way trumps frame material/design/geometry considerations in determining ride characteristics or comfort over the long haul.

[pdmtong]

I frankly don't see that. Use of identical tires and pressures on my Ti, steel, and C bikes in no way trumps frame material/design/geometry considerations in determining ride characteristics or comfort over the long haul.

Same here. Same wheel same tires same pressure on steel ti ti/carbon and carbon. Distinct differences immediately noticeable

[uber]

I love both choices. And, I agree that eventually you would enjoy
owning both. My choice for Ti would also probably be an Eriksen.
You won't know what you prefer until you live with them for a while.
I would take the Ti as my preferences are for metal frames. Good luck.
You can't make a bad choice.

[oldpotatoe]

Same here. Same wheel same tires same pressure on steel ti ti/carbon and carbon. Distinct differences immediately noticeable

No doubt, what I'm saying us if the 'ride' is 'harsh', get bigger tires, use less air. My Merckx MXL and Vamoots ride differently, no question, but neither is bad....

Merckx has tubies, Moots has DT 585 with 25c Pave Clinchers.

[Grant McLean]

It's interesting reading the mental gymnastics attempting to find a rational
reason for one over the other, when it is mostly an emotional choice .
The rational answer is; it doesn't matter which one, both are great bikes. Emotional response; get the one you want more.

-g

[jr59]

It's interesting reading the mental gymnastics.
The rational answer is; it doesn't matter which one, both are great bikes. Emotional response; get the one you want more.

-g

Don't listen to this rubbish! :cool: :banana:

GET BOTH! :banana:

As i said early on in this very thread, welcome to the madness!


All kidding aside; There are NO WRONG picks between these two bikes.

[93legendti]

Same here. Same wheel same tires same pressure on steel ti ti/carbon and carbon. Distinct differences immediately noticeable

+1. Life is too short to ride harsh riding bikes

[happycampyer]

The problem with these debates is that there isn't a right answer, and it's almost impossible to figure out if someone else's preferences match yours.

I happen to be in the "camp" that finds the RSL to be overbuilt for my taste, but I also find the Z5 to be, as well as every other Parlee that I have owned or ridden (I'm pretty sure my old Z3 is the one Hank Scorpio commented on earlier, that he prefers to his ti IF). But I also find this to be true of most of the pro tour-level carbon bikes that I have owned or ridden. It's probably no surprise about my reaction to the RSL and the Z5, since they are designed to be boutique alternatives to those bikes.

Reading this thread yesterday, I was going to suggest that you at least try to test ride the bikes, since test bikes are available for both. But it seems that you've already done that. I'm a bit ambivalent about test rides in any case—different wheels, tires and other components will cloud any impressions and, unless you have major objections (as, say, I did test riding a Cervelo SLC back in the day, which I found intolerable within the first few miles), it's hard to get a sense of a bike in one ride, although 50 miles is a generous test ride. The fact that you came away from the test rides undecided suggests to me that you would probably be happy with either one. Short of buying them both, setting them up identically and riding them for a year or so to see which one you really lean towards most often, there's no way to really know which one you'll ultimately prefer, and I'm not sure that comments from the peanut gallery will help one way or the other, either.

I have also found that bikes have a "honeymoon period" when you first get them. It's really over time that one develops a sense of what one likes/dislikes, and it helps (imo) to have several bikes at a time to make those comparisons (as opposed to trying to do so serially). I agree that, if one doesn't jump out at you in terms of feel, deciding based on peripheral factors (tire clearance (?), durability (Moots), weight (Parlee), potential resale value (Moots), etc.) or emotional factors (desirability (?), high-tech (Parlee), handmade in US (Moots), etc.) is the way most people make these types of decisions.

[Onno]

I just bought a used Z5 a few weeks ago, to bring my road bike stable to 2 bikes, the other one being a 2001 Concours. After 13 years of riding a very lovely Ti bike, I was surprised by just how different the Z5 feels. It is both stiffer and better at absorbing rough roads. It feels faster and more comfortable, which I was not expecting. Indeed, since getting the Z5, I'm reluctant to get back on the Serotta, though I'm sure I'm still in that "honeymoon" phase. I imagine a new bike is a lot like a new tennis racquet. It helps your game a lot for several weeks, and then it feels a lot like the old one...

[fuzzalow]

If you are going to remain a cyclist for any length of time at all, you will eventually get around to trying them all - as in "all" the bikes that intrigue you. And often with greater experience & skill comes greater discernment - Your tastes will change.

The only rule I've found that pervades all is that "It is easy to take a good bike and screw it up with a bad fit".

[iml]

I have to weigh in here. I've never ridden a Parlee, so I can't offer a comparison, but I've ridden lots on ti, carbon, steel and alu. I'm 42, spent 15 years racing hard 9 months of the year, and ride about the same way I always have even though I no longer pin numbers on. 70kg.

I've owned a stock 58cm Vamoots RSL since 2011. It's been raced dozens of times, including a couple of gravel-heavy Rapha Gentlemen's Races. It's the best road bike I've ridden, in that for me it's an amazing all-rounder with no weaknesses. It surprises me that someone could find it "too stiff" in the wrong ways. I'm just not feeling that - or haven't felt that way - and this bike has seen me through plenty of long rides. In fact, this bike does something truly mind-blowing for me: I can almost guarantee that the fourth hour of a long ride will feel better than the preceding three, the fifth hour even better, and so on. Every damn time, past a certain point, things feel better and better on this bike. I've never had that so consistently.

I love this thing. If I have a point, it's that there are very few objective truths on this subject. I have no doubt that those who've said this bike was overbuilt or too stiff actually felt that way, but I'll offer that my own experience has been quite different. To each their own.

[dee-why]

Where have you been? With a fleet like that we need you posting more

This is like going to the mansion and being asked to pick the PMOY. It's a beautiful thing ain't it?

I'm usually a lurker and 1) I enjoy reading/learning from everyone's posts and 2) staring at bike porn in this forum. It's such a great forum for discussions.

After posting about the Parlee earlier, I'd decided to ride it this am. My feelings on the Z3 is still the same. Which is - I won't part with it but I will still pick the ti bike to ride on (most if not all) weekends.

[weaponsgrade]

The best approach (as others have mentioned) is both. But if you could only have one, I'd go Moots. To me, metal whether it be steel or ti has more permanence than carbon. I like that. All things being equal, I hate the feeling of getting something only to have it soon be outdated. I sometimes feel that way about carbon. I'm sure a lot of it is marketing (and I'm speaking generally), but every year someone is talking about how this latest carbon model is so much better than last year's b/c of some new layup, resin, or whatever. I try to ignore marketing speak, but I still get suckered sometimes. With ti, you won't have to worry about keeping up with the joneses.

[nmrt]

If I was this torn between two bikes, I would own both, eventually. But if I only had to get one bike, I'd get the Moots. This is simply because every year carbon frames change slightly, have a version 2, the next latest and greatest. It never ends with carbon. And I would be perpetually tempted to get the carbon version 2.

A titanium frame would be the one joyous constant of my world.

[xeladragon]

Agreed with the last two posts for the reasons they mentioned. If I could only have one, it'd be a Moots. And lucky for me, I do have one. But I'd love to try a boutique carbon at some point... Parlee, Crumpton, etc.

[RobJ]

Threads like this (and this forum!) are getting expensive for me :banana:

Like the OP, I've been lurking too, reading great advice and opinions from everyone. Just sold off some carbon to get my first (used) Moots! Psychlo-X, so would be interested in having the OP report back with some more of your findings or which way you decide to go.

[firerescuefin]

Agreed with the last two posts for the reasons they mentioned. If I could only have one, it'd be a Moots. And lucky for me, I do have one. But I'd love to try a boutique carbon at some point... Parlee, Crumpton, etc.

The more I ride my Z5, the more I love it. If it fit bigger tires, I'd offer up a stronger argument for it. Not being able to run 25s (my tire size of choice) is a real bummer. No doubt that the Moots is going to be more durable over time/give you some other riding options.

[JH7302]

Hi all,
OP here. A little OT, but somewhat relevant to this conversation.. I had my first major crash over the weekend. Thankfully I walked away from it, but basically plowed square into a car that pulled out into my path as I was moving at ~25 mph. I walked away with a dislocated shoulder, broken rib, and massive headache but otherwise feel very lucky. My CAAD had a broken handlebar and busted front wheel, but frame seems undamaged. After realizing that I would be ok, started thinking about what would've happened had I been on Ti or carbon. And how much it would've sucked to have crashed a carbon frame in that manner. Certainly didn't make the decision for me, but definitely got me thinking. In any case, I'll have some time out of the saddle and look forward to seeing what Moots and Parlee have to offer at Interbike/Eurobike. I've heard that Parlees may be introducing frames with greater tire clearance.. would make the decision that much more difficult.

[kramnnim]

Ugh. Glad you're okay, hope the recover goes well. And that you get a check to help pay for the new frame.

Carbon is repairable, there's a guy on Facebook, "Cyclocarbon", posting some before/after shots...he recently attached a good sized chunk of a Focus frame to a Fuji. (dropout and a few inches of seatstay/chainstay) Not that you'd want random guy repairing your $5k+ custom Parlee, but if you went for a used Z5 for ~$1k and crashed it...

[pdmtong]

Glad you are ok but unless you are a savant no one can say that for a particular incident a carbon frame would have exploded and a ti frame would have emerged unscathed. $hit happens and can happen anytime to anyone. That said I don't buy what I buy because of purported crash survivability. I Buy what I like or want. If i crash i worry about it then or perhaps never

[JH7302]

That is a good perspective to have and what insurance is for. Honestly since I enjoyed both frames so much, I will likely do a fitting and go with which stock sizing will fit me best without having to go full custom. That's what it will come down to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jimoots]

Personally I've crashed both carbon and titanium in spectacular fashion, involving going 30+ mph to zero in a matter of meters.

Both bikes survived unscathed, but I know which bike I feel comfortable riding afterwards. You can somewhat reliably garner stress impacts with titanium, carbon is a lot harder/expensive to do so.

I'm not averse to carbon, though.

[aaronka]

I've had both a Parlee Z4 (now sold) and a Moots Psychlo-X (currently my main squeeze).

While the Moots doesn't have the same level of bottom bracket stiffness, it seems much easier to put mega miles on - it is a wonderful blend of comfort and responsiveness.

I really love the Moots...

[indian-17]

I love my Parlee Z5 SLi with Di2. Lifetime warranty. Smooth as silk. I visited the company last month and they were great to me. Located in Massachusetts.

[cnighbor1]

go with the Moots and order it so 32c tires fit with good
clearance your paying a lot get some custom features for all that $$$$$$$$'s
than go with supple low pressure 32c tires like compass tires
just has fast has high pressure tires and reduce vibration which has been proven to be the big factor in getting tired while riding