Aero wheels for road racing?

[Lewis Moon]

I've decided that chasing weight on my bike has hit a point of (vastly) diminishing returns. I’m now looking for some real world aero improvements and I’m thinking about a set of aero(er) racing wheels. What I would want is basically an all-round wheelset that errs on the side of aero. Light enough that I’m not going to be able to use them as an excuse for bad climbing, but aero enough that I can’t use then as an excuse for a sucky TT time. Tough, well built, and readily available used relatively cheap. A wheelset you’d do a rolling road race on. Clinchers would be my preference for cross computability of tires, etc, but not a deal killer.

Suggestions?

[FlashUNC]

Hed.

[Lewis Moon]

Hed.

Flavor?

[FlashUNC]

I'd say the JETs, either in the 5 or 6 flavor. Get the alloy brake track and enough of the aero-ness that HED brings to the table. Biggest penalty will be weight, but it sounds like you've shaved plenty elsewhere.

[nooneline]

Almost anything about 50mm deep will do what you're looking for. Some will be lighter than others; some will be cheaper than others.

[Jgrooms]

Zipps. 303s or 404s.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

A weight weenie rolling clinchers? Did I wake up in bizzaro world? I think you'd be happy with any of the 50-60 mm offerings from HED, Zipp, Enve etc. but I'd also take a serious look at Boyd. All good reports. If I hadn't stumbled on a great deal on some Zipps, I was planning to order his 60mm wheelset (tubi though).

[redir]

Almost anything about 50mm deep will do what you're looking for. Some will be lighter than others; some will be cheaper than others.

That was gonna be my suggestion too and if you get cyclocross specific one's then you will get the toughness you are looking for which is typically more spoke count and perhaps a wider rim. I would not go anything other than tubular for such wheels but that's just me.

[Ralph]

I'm a clincher guy who rode tubulars for 30 years. And for my use thinks something along the line of Campagnolo Zonda's is an all around good set of wheels for my speed.

But based on what you said......and for your use......I would go light as I could with 50 MM (or slightly more) carbon rims, low spoke count aero spokes, aero wheel build, and I think tubular makes much better use of the characteristics of carbon than clincher. For sure carbon tubulars usually lighter. If you're trying to go fast, then get what it takes to go fast. I also think manufactured wheels, where every aspect of the wheel is designed to work together, is usually better than cobbling together a set of wheels from parts here and there. And for sure.....some custom wheel builders know how to build fast wheels.

[Lewis Moon]

A weight weenie rolling clinchers? Did I wake up in bizzaro world? I think you'd be happy with any of the 50-60 mm offerings from HED, Zipp, Enve etc. but I'd also take a serious look at Boyd. All good reports. If I hadn't stumbled on a great deal on some Zipps, I was planning to order his 60mm wheelset (tubi though).

Not a weight weenie at all. I'm a "real world improvement" kind of guy. If something can be lighter while still being robust, performing well and cost effective, then it's worth it. I'm not the type that would spend $300 for a saddle that's super light weight but not comfortable. I have never weighed my bike...weight is just a part of the equation.

[zap]

Bontrager D3 50mm version.

[shovelhd]

Decision points:

10 or 11 speed
Wide, mid or narrow
Off the shelf or custom
New or used
Budget

For all around road racing wheels you would want a depth of between 50mm-60mm.

HED Jets are very heavy. I'd suggest mainstream offerings like the Zipp 404, Easton EC90, Reynolds 58, etc., and custom or small builders like Boyd, November, Psimet, and any forum supporters that can meet your needs.

[Lewis Moon]

Decision points:

10 or 11 speed
Wide, mid or narrow
Off the shelf or custom
New or used
Budget

For all around road racing wheels you would want a depth of between 50mm-60mm.

HED Jets are very heavy. I'd suggest mainstream offerings like the Zipp 404, Easton EC90, Reynolds 58, etc., and custom or small builders like Boyd, November, Psimet, and any forum supporters that can meet your needs.

I can always expect sage advice from a racer's POV from the Shoveler.

[oldguy00]

Performance + affordable (about 1100-1200), check out Williams.

[commonguy001]

I haven't raced in a number of years but loved racing on 404 tubbies with Vittoria Corsa CX tires. I remember those wheels carrying speed better than anything I've ever ridden before or since.

Aero enough and light enough although the early stuff could have been tougher as I cracked a few.

[Lewis Moon]

Decision points:

10 or 11 speed
Wide, mid or narrow
Off the shelf or custom
New or used
Budget

For all around road racing wheels you would want a depth of between 50mm-60mm.

HED Jets are very heavy. I'd suggest mainstream offerings like the Zipp 404, Easton EC90, Reynolds 58, etc., and custom or small builders like Boyd, November, Psimet, and any forum supporters that can meet your needs.

10 speed Campy
23mm or so
Off the shelf if possible
Used
Budget but quality

[beeatnik]

Cosmic Carbone SLRs

Stiff, fast, aero and great braking. Only disadvantage is weight, but if you're going clincher, you gots to compromise.

[oldpotatoe]

Cosmic Carbone SLRs

Stiff, fast, aero and great braking. Only disadvantage is weight, but if you're going clincher, you gots to compromise.

AND not a great rear hub.

[zachateseveryth]

Anyone have any experience running something really deep in road races/crits? I have an older set of Reynolds 46's but I'm considering an upgrade, possibly to 808FC's. Will there be a noticeable difference climbing or jumping out of a corner?

[bluesea]

I've decided that chasing weight on my bike has hit a point of (vastly) diminishing returns. I’m now looking for some real world aero improvements and I’m thinking about a set of aero(er) racing wheels. What I would want is basically an all-round wheelset that errs on the side of aero. Light enough that I’m not going to be able to use them as an excuse for bad climbing, but aero enough that I can’t use then as an excuse for a sucky TT time. Tough, well built, and readily available used relatively cheap. A wheelset you’d do a rolling road race on. Clinchers would be my preference for cross computability of tires, etc, but not a deal killer.

Suggestions?


Two options come to mind. Ergott/Enve SES 6.7, or if cost matters Ergott/November Rail 52.

If I ever get through my injuries and rebuild motivation and fitness levels, the plan is for an Ergott/Enve 6.7 wheelset. Haven't ridden them but drafted a friend who was acclimatizing to the SES 6.7 pre-race season. We rode a coastal section elevated and open to gusts strong enough to push my Neutron front wheel, but the 6.7 front showed no signs at all.

[henry14]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZnrE17Jg3I

[jimoots]

I really like my DA c35's... versatile all year round wheels. Not cheap though.

[Tandem Rider]

Used wheels, new tires and cassette.

I don't know what your courses are like or how much TTing you do, but around here, road/crit setups are different from TT. RR and crits are often lumpy and TT's usually resemble a table top. This means that 50's are the sweetspot in a RR/crit. But they are a knife in a gunfight at a TT.

Yes, IME light matters in a RR/crit, especially on the wheels. They spin up easier and faster to close the gap when the attacks are coming whether you are the attacker or the attackee.

[Likes2ridefar]

your riding position will probably make way more difference...

Personally I've never been impressed with most of the deeper wheels, say 46mm(reynolds) and up. however, the wider rims available handle fine and i wouldnt hesitate to use them as a daily rider if i was forced to. by my own choice i've been through them all and am quite happy on high end aluminum clinchers. preferably something pretty with chris king hubs or similar.

i'm also in the camp that feel they dont make much of a difference compared to most lower depth rims that are reasonably aero but they do handle way worse (unless wide, nicely shaped) and the braking on all carbon rims stinks in all conditions compared to aluminum, is scary in the wet and although tolerable when dry nowhere near as responsive especially on a long fast descent.

[stien]

I'm running jet 6s and love them. Since they aren't full carbon I can daily them without a worry. Tough and comfy as the Ardennes (since they are Ardennes with fairing) and quite aero and stable in crosswinds. I took them climbing in NH over the weekend and didn't mind!

[oldguy00]

Just to add some personal experience...
A few years back I had two sets of tubulars, one being a 1200 gram set of Easton EC90 SLX's, the other a Cosmic Carbone (yup, they made some in tubular). A good 600 gram weight difference between them.
I felt faster, including on the hills, on the heavier wheelset. I don't know if it was because they felt stiffer or what, all I know is that the lighter wheelset did nothing for me.
So first off, I'd say don't worry about the weight. Lots of studies show that it is not nearly as important as folks think.
Next, if you do want aero benefit, you may as well go with a 50-60mm rim at least. Even at that, its not like you are going to see your speed automatically increase from 35 - 40km/hr.....not even close actually, but on paper, they will be a bit faster than box rims.

Lastly, the one time that I truly fell in love with a set of wheels, was a set of the C2 wide rim HED Stinger 6's. I attribute this to the fact that due to the wide rim, I was able to use 25mm Vittoria Corsa CX tubulars. What a freakin amazing ride, both comfortable and fast feeling. I used them for training, crits, and triathlons.

So my vote, get a wide rim carbon tubular, Zipp 404, Stinger 6, Williams Tech 55 tubular, etc and put a good quality 25mm tire on them.
Or, if you really want clinchers, then get the 404 clinchers, Jet 6's, etc and go with a 25mm Vittoria clincher.

Cheers

[Gummee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZnrE17Jg3I

To add: aero helmet and tighter fitting clothing should be first (and a WHOLE lot less $$) before aero wheels.

Aero wheels are indeed nice. Don't get me wrong. ...but you still need to pedal the bicycle.

M

[palincss]

I've decided that chasing weight on my bike has hit a point of (vastly) diminishing returns. I’m now looking for some real world aero improvements and I’m thinking about a set of aero(er) racing wheels.

I recall a study posted within the past year or two that showed that you could get a much, much greater aero improvement from an aero helmet than from aero wheels. Of course, you would look like a major dork.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

To add: aero helmet and tighter fitting clothing should be first (and a WHOLE lot less $$) before aero wheels.

Aero wheels are indeed nice. Don't get me wrong. ...but you still need to pedal the bicycle.

M

I hear ya, but my purely anecdotal experience is that once up to speed there is a noticeable difference in holding that speed with deep wheels that I don't get with tighter race kit. Maybe it's partly momentum, but I'm generally riding lightish tubie rims. I went from Reynolds 32 to Zipp 404, and it was unmistakeable. I've never worn kit that felt that different.

[oldguy00]

There are a few road helmets that do pretty good in the wind tunnel now.
The Louis Garneau Course is one, as well as the Specialized Evade. And they both look pretty good, not like a full aero helmet.

[Lewis Moon]

I'm firmly convinced that aero is a lot more important than weight in most cases. Even climbing. A <5mph tailwind seems to help me more on my favorite climb than any amount of weight I can take off reasonably. The reverse seems to also be true.
To be sure, I'm already down with tight kit and a better aero helmet. I have to be careful on the latter in that, I live in Fort Stinkin' Desert, a short ride can become a microwave brain fry in the wrong helmet. It's important to keep what the Greeks thought was the body's radiator, open to cooling breezes. I've been watching the prices tumble on the Air Attack, but I'm a bit worried about popping for one because Giro completely changed their head shape a couple of years back. The Ionos was the last Giro I could make fit in my size.
I may wait just a bit to pull the trigger on a helmet. I'm thinking that aero is the new "super light" and there will be more offerings soon. Specialized = Shimano run by A-holes in my book so I really can't bring myself to give them money beyond buying water bottles at a steep discount.

On another note: I figure shoes will be next. For the last couple of years there has been a gadget arms race on shoes, but the data says that one of the best "bang-for-the-buck" aero improvements is to put on shoe covers. My bet is that we'll see a new crop of aero shoes in the next year or two.

[oldguy00]

... but the data says that one of the best "bang-for-the-buck" aero improvements is to put on shoe covers. ....

Where did you see that? I've actually read just the opposite. That despite what many -assumed- would be the case, shoe covers have sometimes been shown to create more drag.
Do a search on slowtwitch. It has been mentioned there before, and trust me, no one obsesses more about aero than those guys!! :)

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I'm firmly convinced that aero is a lot more important than weight in most cases. Even climbing.

Agree. Swapped my 1000g Reynolds for 1300g Zipp 404s, and I see zero downside so far.

[Lewis Moon]

Where did you see that? I've actually read just the opposite. That despite what many -assumed- would be the case, shoe covers have sometimes been shown to create more drag.
Do a search on slowtwitch. It has been mentioned there before, and trust me, no one obsesses more about aero than those guys!! :)

You're probably right. I saw some old data, but I have to believe that a shoe with all sorts of major appliances attached to it has to hurt.

[carpediemracing]

Anyone have any experience running something really deep in road races/crits? I have an older set of Reynolds 46's but I'm considering an upgrade, possibly to 808FC's. Will there be a noticeable difference climbing or jumping out of a corner?

Since 2010 I've been running HED wheels.

2010: Bastognes (Ardennes type) clinchers, Jet 6/9 F/R clinchers, Stinger 6 F/R.

In 2013 I added Stinger 7/9 F/R, SCT type.

I run the same tires on the clinchers, virtually the same tires on the tubulars. I run virtually the same cassettes on all the wheels, some flavor of Campy 10s steel.

I stopped using the Jets by mid 2010 because they were so heavy. I'd use the Stingers or the Bastognes. Both Bastognes have bad rims so I started using the Jets about a year ago.

Remember I use the same brand/make tires on the clinchers - I'd buy 4 tires or more at a time so it's all fresh/same.

Keep in mind that all the wheels except the 2012 Stinger 7/9 (which I bought used) use the same hubs and spokes, so any weight differences are in the rim/tire area. The Stinger 7/9 have very similar hub weights and frankly I can't tell when a hub is heavier or not.

Recently I weighed my wheels and my bike with the different wheel set ups:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2014/08/equipment-bike-weight-red-tsunami.html

There's about a 3 pound difference between the Jets and the Stingers. That's pretty significant. It's something like one or two extra pedal strokes when accelerating out of a turn. It's enough that in 2010, when I was strong enough to upgrade to Cat 2, I got shelled in our local Tues Night training race in 15-20 minutes. I actually won one of the races (rain shortened) on the Bastognes, and I won field sprints and got 2nd on the Stinger 6s. Same general group of riders, similar type of racing each time.

Bike weights with clinchers

With Bastognes, 7.72 kg / 17.0 lbs
With Jets, 8.62 kg / 18.98 lbs

Bike weights with tubulars

With the Stinger 7/9 setup weighs 7.35 kg or 16.19 lbs.
With the Stinger 6 wheels weighs 7.20 kg or 15.85 lbs.

I used to fit aero wheels for road races so I could try and catch up after getting shelled on the climbs. If I were to do this again I'd use the tallest rear wheel (Stinger 9 or similar) and a shorter front (Stinger 4 or even 3). The shorter front wheel is for stability in very fast descents. Over 50 mph a tall front wheel gets really hairy, and it's worse if you're getting hit with gusts of wind. You can pretty much always use a tall rear wheel. I haven't experienced the 50 mph crosswinds like some folks have posted recently on Facebook but I did ride in Hurricane George when it was sustained 50 mph wind with gusts of 80 mph, and I rode with front and rear TriSpokes aka HED3s. We were even a group of 3 riders.

Anyway I'd do a short front wheel, taller rear wheel, to get maximum aero benefit while still being able to pinpoint control the front of the bike on fast descents.

[Gummee]

There are a few road helmets that do pretty good in the wind tunnel now.
The Louis Garneau Course is one, as well as the Specialized Evade. And they both look pretty good, not like a full aero helmet.

I have a Course.

Hence the comment about you still have to pedal the bike. I wish I could say that its a magic pill that allows you to keep up with the 1s and 2s with half their training (or less) but alas, it doesn't.

M

[mjb266]

It would be tough to beat the ENVE 3.4 or 6.7 in my book. I've had both in tubular, and the benefits really kick in once you're over 20mph. I loved the 6.7's but the crosswinds had me too on edge to really think of them as everyday wheels. The 3.4's on the other hand were super comfortable regardless of what the wind was doig while still being faster than my beloved 32 hole 3x Nemesis set-up.